BW advice: the Wand + WWE2 for writing instruction for second?

[marylandhsmom]

Hello all!

 

I posted on the writing boards accidentally, and Chrysalis Academy kindly pointed me back here.  

 

My second grader DD is doing "ok" with the end of WWE1 (we got waaay behind because of a cross-country move and baby #3), but now I'm starting to think about methodologies in teaching writing.  If you don't fall in the WWE/copywork/dictation/narration camp, what other methods are there to teach writing?  

 

I know BW is gentle in K-2, and I'm wondering how explicit the writing instruction is??  For anyone who has used the Wand, I'd love some input!  I'm toying with the idea of combining WWE2 with the Wand for variety and creative writing instruction.  BUT if they are both full of narration/copywork, would it be redundant??

 

(Or maybe should I consider another program?  Is TC too advanced for a second grader?)

 

Thanks so much in advance - for any input or advice!

[Julie of KY]

I think Bravewriter does copywork and dictation, but at a gentler pace and approach. I haven't used WWE, but I've looked at it. I haven't used the Wand, but I've used the Arrow and the older one (I can't remember the name). There are samples online that you might want to look at. I've meandered down various paths through the years, but I have come back to doing it the Bravewriter way - it fits us well. Currentlly my second grader severely dyslexic and learning to read so I'm not very far into teaching him copywork, etc.

 

[marylandhsmom]

SORRY!  I just realized BW has a "Quiver of arrows" program out for 1st-2nd grade and the lit selections are perfect for where my DD is.  I wish there were samples to see!!!!  

[Farrar]

Yes, I was going to suggest the Quiver of Arrows. It will just be dictation passages, one a week, from each of the books. You do one book a month. However, if you're going to continue with WWE, yes, it would be redundant IMO.

 

BW does use the copywork/dictation/narration model for learning writing. However, Julie Bogart sees writing so, so differently from SWB. WWE teaches writing like it's a foreign language to be learned. BW emphasizes using your spoken voice to develop a written voice. WTM/WWE style narration is summary based. BW narration is more Charlotte Mason influenced and more focused on retelling. It's also a less formal thing. The dictation passages in WWE are from lots of different sources, but in BW you're supposed to draw from a single source - the book you're reading aloud - to give it context. WWE dictation is supposed to be more cold. BW dictation is studied - you discuss the passage pretty extensively beforehand.

 

Also, maybe most importantly, the WTM/WWE approach has those pieces along with a study of grammar as all you do for writing. BW goes lighter on all those pieces and suggests leaving grammar alone except through teaching mechanics in dictation for most of elementary school. Instead, BW additionally has kids playing around with words, freewriting, and doing writing projects such as retelling their own fairy tales or writing to each other in secret codes or making their own lapbooks. I think BW is sort of a hybrid approach between classical/CM sorts of methods and more modern play with your writing sorts of methods.

 

The writing instruction in BW is not explicit. There is some explicit but gentle instruction in the Wand and Arrows about mechanics and grammar. But mostly BW is just not a step by step explicit writing program. Some people use some of the BW ideas like poetry teas and freewrites alongside WWE's more formal instruction. Jot It Down is the BW product that has laid out writing projects for younger students.

[marylandhsmom]

I'm so glad you responded, Farrar!!  I was hoping you would.  

 

Question for you.  In your opinion, if DD struggles hard with summarizing passages in clear, coherent sentences, should I just keep working at it, plodding along with WWE, or should I just jump ship and use BW for a more gentle LA experience?  She's not entirely balking at the summarizing aspect but she definitely struggles with it, being super right-brained and creative.   (She's the type who gets tongue-tied when emotional and her sentences make no sense.  I've wondered if there's some sort of learning disorder, but she's able to write and spell clearly 80% of the time.)  What would you do??

 

Yes, I was going to suggest the Quiver of Arrows. It will just be dictation passages, one a week, from each of the books. You do one book a month. However, if you're going to continue with WWE, yes, it would be redundant IMO.

 

BW does use the copywork/dictation/narration model for learning writing. However, Julie Bogart sees writing so, so differently from SWB. WWE teaches writing like it's a foreign language to be learned. BW emphasizes using your spoken voice to develop a written voice. WTM/WWE style narration is summary based. BW narration is more Charlotte Mason influenced and more focused on retelling. It's also a less formal thing. The dictation passages in WWE are from lots of different sources, but in BW you're supposed to draw from a single source - the book you're reading aloud - to give it context. WWE dictation is supposed to be more cold. BW dictation is studied - you discuss the passage pretty extensively beforehand.

 

Also, maybe most importantly, the WTM/WWE approach has those pieces along with a study of grammar as all you do for writing. BW goes lighter on all those pieces and suggests leaving grammar alone except through teaching mechanics in dictation for most of elementary school. Instead, BW additionally has kids playing around with words, freewriting, and doing writing projects such as retelling their own fairy tales or writing to each other in secret codes or making their own lapbooks. I think BW is sort of a hybrid approach between classical/CM sorts of methods and more modern play with your writing sorts of methods.

 

The writing instruction in BW is not explicit. There is some explicit but gentle instruction in the Wand and Arrows about mechanics and grammar. But mostly BW is just not a step by step explicit writing program. Some people use some of the BW ideas like poetry teas and freewrites alongside WWE's more formal instruction. Jot It Down is the BW product that has laid out writing projects for younger students.

 

[Farrar]

I'm so glad you responded, Farrar!!  I was hoping you would.  

 

Question for you.  In your opinion, if DD struggles hard with summarizing passages in clear, coherent sentences, should I just keep working at it, plodding along with WWE, or should I just jump ship and use BW for a more gentle LA experience?  She's not entirely balking at the summarizing aspect but she definitely struggles with it, being super right-brained and creative.   (She's the type who gets tongue-tied when emotional and her sentences make no sense.  I've wondered if there's some sort of learning disorder, but she's able to write and spell clearly 80% of the time.)  What would you do??

 

Well, I'm super biased. I would jump ship. I find the WTM style narrations as presented in SOTW's AG and WWE to be really canned and dull. I get their purpose, but I'm not sure that I believe it's developmentally appropriate. Summarizing is hard. And I know that SWB knows that and that the summaries are meant to be best examples to aim for, but I think developing memory and working on retelling is more in line with how young children think. I think pushing, pushing all the time for key points like that is robbing kids of the ability to reflect and think about what they're learning. I think the summary skill is really a synthesizing of information logic stage skill and trying to get seven and eight year olds to do it is really pushing it.

 

But that's just my own take. A lot of people would disagree. And WWE really works for a lot of kids.

 

I just really resonate with BW's sense of joy in language and words and imparting a "language rich" environment to kids. And while I worry about whether my kids are on track and all those sorts of things that I think most of us worry about, I really like hearing the message that it's okay to go a little slower and focus on that love of language.

 

But I know also that many parents find BW harder to implement because it's not as laid out or open and go and asks parents to adapt and be flexible and make changes and learn alongside their kids sometimes. So that can be tough. Still, Jot It Down is pretty well organized and laid out. The Quiver of Arrows takes care of the copywork and dictation elements. It just depends.

[marylandhsmom]

Well, I'm super biased. I would jump ship. I find the WTM style narrations as presented in SOTW's AG and WWE to be really canned and dull. I get their purpose, but I'm not sure that I believe it's developmentally appropriate. Summarizing is hard. And I know that SWB knows that and that the summaries are meant to be best examples to aim for, but I think developing memory and working on retelling is more in line with how young children think. I think pushing, pushing all the time for key points like that is robbing kids of the ability to reflect and think about what they're learning. I think the summary skill is really a synthesizing of information logic stage skill and trying to get seven and eight year olds to do it is really pushing it.

 

 

I just really resonate with BW's sense of joy in language and words and imparting a "language rich" environment to kids. And while I worry about whether my kids are on track and all those sorts of things that I think most of us worry about, I really like hearing the message that it's okay to go a little slower and focus on that love of language.

 

 

Ahhh, what you wrote is music to my ears!!  I agree with pretty much everything you said, especially about the summary skill being a logic stage skill.  I mean, I know some elementary kids can summarize with ease, but in my DD's case she's just not there yet...  I'm sure she would eventually get better at it, with more intensive practice, but at what cost?  

 

And can I just say how much I hate our current education system??  It's just too much, too fast.  And why, oh why, do I feel compelled to stay on track with them??  I need blinders!!  I grew up in Montgomery County in the 80s and turned out just fine without knowing how to diagram sentences in third grade.  Ugh!

[Tanikit]

I use WWE2 with my second grader, but we also do creative writing and a more BW style approach on other days of the week and with SOTW I have started teaching the basics of outlining too. What I have discovered is that what is taught in one curriculum does carry over somewhat to other curricula. If I read my DD a picture book and ask her to retell the story she will summarise a fair amount. 

 

I believe that children should learn all sorts of writing including knowing how to change tone when writing different things - emails, text messages, letters, business letters (and how an email can be more or less formal), stories, personal accounts, essays, summaries, note-taking in classes, typing on skype/forums/message boards, research articles, poetry, diary entries/journalling, filling in forms - there are many, many more places where one must know how to communicate appropriately. Obviously not all of these can be taught in elementary and a lot of this can be picked up simply by reading these types of communications to children.  I want my child to be able to function in the real world one day and writing is still a big part of that - not only at university. Of course there are many years in which to accomplish this and knowing what to expect of an individual child can be difficult.