questions: teaching writing in logic stage (R&S, WTM, WWE)

[Colleen in NS]

First off, what exactly is meant by the phrase, "expository writing skills?" In my dictionary, expository means explaining or exposing. So is it basically anything but creative writing (poems, stories, personal experiences...)? Are there different categories of expository writing?

 

Second, if you use R&S for writing, along with WTM instructions for logic stage writing (sentence construction, paragraph development, outlines, rewrites), do you incorporate the R&S creative writing lessons into your overall writing plan, too? Or just do the creative writing lesson and then leave it alone unless your child has an interest in creative writing? I do the poem and story writing lessons because they are there, but I don't generally incorporate them in to anything else - I wonder if there is value in doing so? Or even a necessity to do so? Although I must say that I can see some value in doing the lessons even if we don't use the material after that in more writing - when doing some poetry lessons in R&S 5 a few weeks ago, I realized that the pattern/rhythm info. would be useful for poetry/lit. analysis later on, even if we don't write poems regularly. BTW, I do incorporate the other writing lessons (like developing paragraphs, using a variety of sentences, outlining, etc.) into history, science, and lit. each week.

 

Third, about editing your child's work...I wrote the following (from R&S lessons we've done so far) on a flashcard for myself:

 

Use a variety of sentences in a paragraph:

 

- statements, questions, commands, exclamations

- sentences of varied length

- simple sentences

- simple sentences with compound subjects, compound predicates, or other compound parts like compound direct objects

- compound sentences

 

I wrote this so I could either give it to my son as he writes a narration by himself, or so I could refer to it as I coach him through a narration. But I'm not sure it's working....it seems unnatural to try to write a paragraph while referring to this card. Should I just let him write a paragraph (or me coach him through writing one) and THEN refer to this flashcard for editing? Or would these writing helps come in more handy next year when I start teaching him to rewrite from 2 level outlines, when he will have more than one paragraph to write? I'm just not sure how to go about helping him to remember these guidelines. I keep thinking I should just let him write his paragraph, and then go back and help him edit/improve with diagraming and this flashcard of writing helps. I don't want the helps to get in the way of his flow of thought - all that narration coaching in grades 1-4 and WWE has helped him to come up with pretty good sentences. But then I sometimes read comments here, where people say you should always edit papers (but at what age?), or people will say (if someone provides their child's sample of writing for critique) that it needs to be fixed, and I can't see what's wrong with it. Actually, now that I've reread this, he does sometimes try to make his sentences shorter, because of handwriting - that's why I feel the need to sit and coach him, still. His speech, OTOH, is very eloquent at times, because of all the reading and talking he has done over the years. I'm thinking this should be translating to writing more, but it doesn't seem to be much, yet.

 

Also, after doing narration all these years, I try to remember to tell him to write a topic sentence (which wasn't stressed in WTM/WWE), but he sometimes gets stuck on that. Should I let him write his paragraph from his flow of thought, and come back to write a topic sentence afterwards?

 

And how long does it take a child to learn to type proficiently?? If he could type easily, I might feel better about letting him go on his own (only part of me thinks I should still sit and listen to him say his thoughts out loud, in case he needs help clarifying them before writing them) and then editing! He's working on it, but he gets frustrated. He only has about 3 hours of practice time logged on Mavis Beacon so far. I have him do about 15 min. at a time (but if I'm not looking he runs away after a few minutes if he's frustrated - my fault, I know) Maybe it's like boys learning to write - long and frustrating before it becomes comfortable.

 

Finally, he is in 5th grade - am I trying to do too much at once? Does this stuff come naturally over the next few years?

 

Thank you.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[Alana in Canada]

Hey, Colleen. You are doing a fabulous job with your little guy. You really are. I admire greatly what you are doing and I should be doing this right along with you!

 

"Exposition: discourse or an example of it designed to convey information or explain what is difficult to understand." (Webster's 7th New Collegiate--my favourite dictionary :001_smile:)

 

Really, all you need to do is pick one thing, 1x a week (or 3x/week, but that would be too much time, I think) and tell him: this will be re-written.

 

I would make up a checklist along the lines of your flash card, but include that pesky topic sentence! Then you can say: this will be re-written until we get it into "good" form.

 

For all its "rigour" CW works on just one writing assignment a week. You can certainly take the same approach--while still making him write and take notes from his other material. In light of this, then:

 

I keep thinking I should just let him write his paragraph, and then go back and help him edit/improve with diagraming and this flashcard of writing helps.

 

 

yes, of course! And that's almost a perfect description of what, essentially, CW does.

 

Listen to your gut. It's telling you right.

[Colleen in NS]

Really, all you need to do is pick one thing, 1x a week...and tell him: this will be re-written.

 

I would make up a checklist along the lines of your flash card, but include that pesky topic sentence! Then you can say: this will be re-written until we get it into "good" form.

 

Thanks for your kind words! And this bit reminds me of something else to add - currently he is doing 2 one level outlines a week, 1 dictation, and 1 narration. So, really, for this year, I am talking about one paragraph per week, with the narration (unless R&S throws in a writing assignment between grammar lessons). I expect, next year, it will go up to about 2 different paragraph writing assignments per week, if we do 2 outlines and 2 rewrites per week. (but they would be multi-paragraph rewrites because of the outlines being from multiple paragraphs or taken from big sections of text)

[Colleen in NS]

bump

[Stacy in NJ]

I'm just going to agree that it sounds like he's doing enough writing, and it sounds like it's quality writing, as well.

 

A book about writing that I found really neat was The Lively Art of Writing by Lucile Vaughan Payne. This is a high school level book that explains expository writing. Reading through this really helped me get a better understanding of where I want to go with my rising 7th grader. I won't be using it quite yet as a "curriculum" with him, but I will be incorporating many of the ideas from it. I think LAOW may help answer your question, "what is expository writing?"

[Colleen in NS]

I'm just going to agree that it sounds like he's doing enough writing, and it sounds like it's quality writing, as well.

 

A book about writing that I found really neat was The Lively Art of Writing by Lucile Vaughan Payne. This is a high school level book that explains expository writing. Reading through this really helped me get a better understanding of where I want to go with my rising 7th grader. I won't be using it quite yet as a "curriculum" with him, but I will be incorporating many of the ideas from it. I think LAOW may help answer your question, "what is expository writing?"

 

Thanks, Stacy. Are you able to comment on my questions pertaining to coaching beforehand vs. editing afterwards with narrations, or about if it's necessary to keep practicing the creative writing lessons after the lesson is done?

 

I looked for that book at my library, but it's not there. I might have a look for other writing books there.

[Stacy in NJ]

Thanks, Stacy. Are you able to comment on my questions pertaining to coaching beforehand vs. editing afterwards with narrations, or about if it's necessary to keep practicing the creative writing lessons after the lesson is done?

 

I looked for that book at my library, but it's not there. I might have a look for other writing books there.

 

I don't think it's important to keep practicing the creative writing stuff, especially with a 5th grader. If he's able to do the lesson with a decent understanding, and he's followed the directions, I wouldn't fuss about editing. If he's struggled to incorporate what the lesson was suppose to teach into the actual written work, then it would probably be a good idea to re-teach and have a do over. For example, if the lesson was about descriptive writing, and he's failed to include some good strong adjectives and images, then a re-write is probably necessary. But, if he's done what's been requested of him within the context of the lesson ~ move on.

 

It is a good idea to provide some specific guidelines as pre-teaching for narrations. IEW uses a checklist the kiddo must follow. I've found this to be both limiting, a fit frustating, but also helpful in developing skills. You're really using your own checklist that looks pretty good to me. Maybe you could make it just a bit more specific? I try to be really clear about what I expect before hand from the assignment and then hold ds accountable for satisfying those requirements. Part of the requirements are adequate grammar and mechanics. So, trying to answer your question, I do both coaching before hand and require editing afterwards. As ds has gotten older, I've slowly ratched up my expectations, pushing a little bit more each year.

 

Well, now I'm rambling. My ds in only in 6th grade, so he's nearly in the same place as your ds. Also, take my advice on writing with a grain of salt. By any stretch of the imagination, I'm no expert. I'm winging it like many others. :001_smile:

 

It sounds like you're doing a good job, though.

[Colleen in NS]

I don't think it's important to keep practicing the creative writing stuff, especially with a 5th grader. If he's able to do the lesson with a decent understanding, and he's followed the directions, I wouldn't fuss about editing. If he's struggled to incorporate what the lesson was suppose to teach into the actual written work, then it would probably be a good idea to re-teach and have a do over. For example, if the lesson was about descriptive writing, and he's failed to include some good strong adjectives and images, then a re-write is probably necessary. But, if he's done what's been requested of him within the context of the lesson ~ move on.

 

It is a good idea to provide some specific guidelines as pre-teaching for narrations. IEW uses a checklist the kiddo must follow. I've found this to be both limiting, a fit frustating, but also helpful in developing skills. You're really using your own checklist that looks pretty good to me. Maybe you could make it just a bit more specific? I try to be really clear about what I expect before hand from the assignment and then hold ds accountable for satisfying those requirements. Part of the requirements are adequate grammar and mechanics. So, trying to answer your question, I do both coaching before hand and require editing afterwards. As ds has gotten older, I've slowly ratched up my expectations, pushing a little bit more each year.

 

Well, now I'm rambling. My ds in only in 6th grade, so he's nearly in the same place as your ds. Also, take my advice on writing with a grain of salt. By any stretch of the imagination, I'm no expert. I'm winging it like many others. :001_smile:

 

It sounds like you're doing a good job, though.

 

Thanks so much for sharing what you've learned so far, winging it though you are! It's helpful, and it's food for thought, and I will be back later to comment further/ask more questions - I'm on my way out the door. I'm currently going through R&S 5 writing lessons myself and writing down the main teaching points on flashcards for myself, for future reference. I think it's helping create a bigger picture in my mind, too. But I'm still in the midst of it, and your post gives me more to think about. I'll be back.....

[Colleen in NS]

I don't think it's important to keep practicing the creative writing stuff, especially with a 5th grader.

 

This is what I'm thinking, too. I guess it's more important to keep practicing writing clear paragraphs, with all that's involved in that. I'm also guessing that the creative writing lessons are included for exposure and building a bit on that, in case the child takes a liking to creative writing, and for learning things like poetry rhythm or storyline writing, which would be useful in future reading. Totally guessing, though.

 

It is a good idea to provide some specific guidelines as pre-teaching for narrations. IEW uses a checklist the kiddo must follow. I've found this to be both limiting, a fit frustating, but also helpful in developing skills. You're really using your own checklist that looks pretty good to me. Maybe you could make it just a bit more specific? I try to be really clear about what I expect before hand from the assignment and then hold ds accountable for satisfying those requirements. Part of the requirements are adequate grammar and mechanics. So, trying to answer your question, I do both coaching before hand and require editing afterwards. As ds has gotten older, I've slowly ratched up my expectations, pushing a little bit more each year.

 

Hmmmm.....more specific in my requirements.....do you mean things like, "Summarize this story/chapter in 4 or 5 sentences - include the main characters, tell who were friends/enemies, where and when they lived, the main problem in the story, and how they dealt with it." or "Summarize the most important details of the marsupial group of mammals from this chapter in 4 or 5 sentences" or "Summarize the most interesting details about Helen Keller's childhood" - that type of thing, in addition to reminding him/coaching him along in the elements of a good paragraph (topic sentence, varied sentences, etc. that I had on my flashcard list), and grammar/mechanics? (sorry about the long sentence!) This is pretty much what I do - I guess I just wondered if I should back off the coaching beforehand, but I don't think I should. I'm thinking that just when they get comfortable with one level, there is always something new to add to their skills, so they'll still need my coaching! Which is fine, as long as I know what to do. coaching/helping with editing, coaching/helping with editing all the way, right?

Edited February 27, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[Stacy in NJ]

Yes, giving the most detailed instructions is good, at least it is in our house. I was also thinking along the lines..."Include one compound sentence and one complex sentence. Use a variety of sentence types." That allows him to practice skills he's learned from other lessons. I've come to think of writing instruction as a constant process of coaching/editing/adding elements, coaching/editing/adding elements into infinity.

 

Interesting thread. Thanks for starting it.

[Colleen in NS]

Yes, giving the most detailed instructions is good, at least it is in our house. I was also thinking along the lines..."Include one compound sentence and one complex sentence. Use a variety of sentence types." That allows him to practice skills he's learned from other lessons. I've come to think of writing instruction as a constant process of coaching/editing/adding elements, coaching/editing/adding elements into infinity.

 

Interesting thread. Thanks for starting it.

 

Thank YOU for being my sounding board and helping me think this through!

 

OK, I like that bit about being as specific as to what types of sentences to include! I guess I'd have to stab at a guess as to what types (compound, simple - I don't know what complex is yet:D, question, exclamation, statement) would be most likely to fit that day's assignment, wouldn't I.

 

coach/edit/add elements to infinity....:lol: glad to know someone else is thinking the same thing!!

[Rhondabee]

I think it would be very artificial for me to specify what sentence types my ds must use ahead of his writing down his own thoughts (either my 5th or my 8th grader). And I imagine that my 5th grader would become more concerned about meeting that requirement than writing a logical progression of thought.

 

I *do* go through his narrations with him, and suggest changes: where the sentence order needs to be tweaked, which sentences are too long, which could be combined to better show the relationship between the two ideas. My 5th gr ds is very good about including a question or an exclamation in just about every narration, even thought I have *never* suggested to him to do so. (I wouldn't *worry* about it if he didn't, either.)

 

My point in mentioning it is just to say your dc's writing voice will grow as he grows, and reads, and re-does these writing assignments. I never required compound-complex sentences in my 8th grader's narrations, but he uses them because that is how he is *thinking* now. His thoughts have grown beyond simple sentences, and (thanks to R&S) he knows how to punctuate those sentences now, so he naturally uses them.

 

(Actually, I will probably teach him to eliminate some of the more complicated punctuation in writing that others will see, since too many people won't understand the proper uses of semi-colons - LOL!)

 

"Coach/edit/add elements to infinity..." - *that* I agree with. =)

[Colleen in NS]

My point in mentioning it is just to say your dc's writing voice will grow as he grows, and reads, and re-does these writing assignments. I never required compound-complex sentences in my 8th grader's narrations, but he uses them because that is how he is *thinking* now. His thoughts have grown beyond simple sentences, and (thanks to R&S) he knows how to punctuate those sentences now, so he naturally uses them.

 

"Coach/edit/add elements to infinity..." - *that* I agree with. =)

 

Thanks, Rhonda! This is what I'm thinking is going to happen, too - his own writing voice will grow as he reads and edits. Maybe I'll just plunk that list of different types/constructions of sentences down in front of him when he writes, and say, "Use a variety of these - any of them - play around with how you could use them" instead of telling him which kind to use. Because right now he does tend to stick to one way of doing things (I think that lack of typing skill is getting in the way of his fast flow of thought - must work on typing!)

 

Thanks for telling me that coach/edit/add elements to infinity is what you do, too! For some reason I thought I was doing too much, but I'm relieved to know I'm on the right track. It's fun for me, too, to learn these things finally! This sounds pretty sad, but last night I kept dreaming about grammar constructions and sentence constructions........