Teaching various skills in logic and rhetoric stage: mastery, or just familiarity?

[Colleen in NS]

As you move through the logic and rhetoric stage, how do you decide which academic skills (not content areas) need to be mastered, and which can be practiced just to a familiarity level (of the subjects you deem to be important to that child)?

 

For us, math facts and processes are important, grammar is important, Latin grammar is important. Writing skills.

 

But how do you decide how far to take things like, vocabulary, another foreign language's grammar, logic skills, analyzing literature?

 

For a bit of background on us, I really like the WTM ideas, and have used most of the suggestions through grammar stage. I hope to continue, but am looking for concrete examples of how you more experienced WTM-style homeschoolers decided what skills should be mastered, and what skills are good enough with a working familiarity.

 

For example: ds going into 5th grade will be doing what you see in my signature line (a lot of the methods from WTM logic stage). We'll be doing the usual tweaking around to make it work. But I look at things like Spanish and am starting to say to myself, "I could make up flashcards from the grammar workbook (Practical Spanish Grammar that I'm experimenting with stretching out over 4 years, along with listening to Learnables). I could use these flashcards in the same way that I use flashcards to learn Latin vocab and grammar forms. But I just don't think I want to put that much effort into Spanish due to time restrictions, even though I'd LOVE to!" Is familiarity with some Spanish vocab and grammar good enough for getting experience in learning a modern foreign language for now?? It looks so stupid, now that I've typed that question, LOL!

 

Or things like VfCR. I'm having ds go through flashcards of the root words each week, and having him put them on the chart, as per WTM (I do like this idea). And then do the exercises. But I wonder, "what if he forgets the root word meanings? Should I have him review all those cards all year long?? Or will the exercises and regular reading serve to reinforce the roots he has learned?" Again, I think this sounds stupid now. But I'm throwing it out there, because I really would like to hear some concrete answers.

 

I think I'm comparing those two items to what I've read in LC1 and LC2. There is so much recommended drill in there - it is pumped into my brain that all the vocab and grammar forms need to be mastered or else......so I panic (not really) and think that vocab. roots and Spanish skills and whatever other skills (logic, rhetoric, anything else you can think of) must be mastered, too.

 

So, how do you decide what skills to master and what skills to just become familiar with? How does it all end up by the end of high school?

[Michelle in MO]

For us, math facts and processes are important, grammar is important, Latin grammar is important. Writing skills.

 

These are indeed critical areas; math is essential. It's like building blocks, and without a good foundation in algebra, your h.s. student will struggle. I think grammar is important, but I would start to focus more in on writing skills; the grammar would be secondary and ancillary to writing, IMO.

 

As far as these:

 

 

But how do you decide how far to take things like, vocabulary, another foreign language's grammar, logic skills, analyzing literature?So, how do you decide what skills to master and what skills to just become familiar with? How does it all end up by the end of high school?

 

We've always done vocabulary study. We didn't use flashcards with either VCR or Wordly Wise; I simply had my girls work through a section or two per day until we finished one book of each per year. Vocabulary study is important more for the college-entrance exams, IMO. A student picks up a huge vocabulary just from reading a lot, which they'll do in h.s. But, putting those words in the context of college-entrance exams and how some of those questions are phrased is another deal altogether.

 

Depending on who you talk to, logic study may take slightly more or less precedence. Tina in Ouray has an excellent grasp on logic; Charon, when he posted here, was practically a professor of philosophy.

 

The literary analysis is also important, and is best tied into the writing skills. Have your student write about literature a LOT! Nan in Massachussetts (sp?) and Jane in NC and others have done literature the WEM/WTM way, and they would be a fabulous resource for you. Others have used Omnibus, like our family.

 

From reading your post, you already have a pretty good grasp on what to focus on. I would emphasize Latin over a second foreign language, but if you can do both, more power to you.

 

I don't know if I've helped or confused matters! But, this is my .02 worth.

[Colleen in NS]

From reading your post, you already have a pretty good grasp on what to focus on. I would emphasize Latin over a second foreign language, but if you can do both, more power to you.

 

Michelle, thanks for your encouragement.

 

I'm thinking I don't have to worry so much about mastering those VfCR flashcards - just review them each day of the week, do the exercises, move on, and trust that a lot will stick as reading occurs.

 

I'm also thinking of making Spanish the "fun" subject for the next few years - letting whatever sticks, stick. Instead of trying to make up yet another set of flashcards for ds to master (it seemed like a good idea, esp. after I read a great foreign language learning book! Guess the learning pattern will come in handy for my kids later on, if they want to really delve into another language...).

 

As for logic, so far we are just doing MindBenders, which is fun. I'll have to just feel my way along as we go the next few years....I've bought some logic texts already because I liked the idea of studying it as a subject. I hope to start working my way through them in the next year.....

 

Literature....oh yeah, I've kept up with any lit. analysis discussions here on the H.S. board. I do like the WEM/WTM way and have chatted a bit with Nan in Mass about it. I guess I was more wondering about how others decide how many books to cover in a year (for high school, or even logic stage), or how in depth to go with discussions.

 

For that matter, I am also wondering how people actually work out the WTM recs for logic stage science and history. For example, in history, it's recommended that the student make an outline, then write reports for two different topics of interest that week. In science, it's do an experiment, write about it, then write a report on a related topic later that week. How do you get a 5th grade boy, reluctant writer, to do all that?? Or is there a different way that's just as good, to arrange writing assignments for these two subjects each week?

 

I'm just plain old nervous right now about launching into new skill areas, and trying to get a handle on tempering my expectations.....it helps to hear what others have done.

 

So thanks for the reply!

 

If anyone else wants to chime in, I'd sure appreciate it. :)

[Colleen in NS]

bump

[Michelle in MO]

Literature....oh yeah, I've kept up with any lit. analysis discussions here on the H.S. board. I do like the WEM/WTM way and have chatted a bit with Nan in Mass about it. I guess I was more wondering about how others decide how many books to cover in a year (for high school, or even logic stage), or how in depth to go with discussions.

 

For that matter, I am also wondering how people actually work out the WTM recs for logic stage science and history. For example, in history, it's recommended that the student make an outline, then write reports for two different topics of interest that week. In science, it's do an experiment, write about it, then write a report on a related topic later that week. How do you get a 5th grade boy, reluctant writer, to do all that?? Or is there a different way that's just as good, to arrange writing assignments for these two subjects each week?

 

I'm just plain old nervous right now about launching into new skill areas, and trying to get a handle on tempering my expectations.....it helps to hear what others have done.

 

So thanks for the reply!

 

If anyone else wants to chime in, I'd sure appreciate it. :)

 

As far as the literature study, I'm not sure how some decide how many books to work through the WTM/WEM way. We did Omnibus; the first year we didn't get very many of their book selections done at all, which was a big disappointment. This was due to a rather large homeschooling project in the fall. Last year, for Omnibus II, we probably ended up reading about 18 or so books, which was a decent amount. Amazingly enough, we were able to keep on schedule fairly well with the schedule that Omnibus provided! We only skipped a few of the secondary readings, and overall it was a much better year than the previous one.

 

I would say that the amount of books you would cover would depend on the book and the child. As a "guess", I would say if you and your dc spent about three weeks (I think SWB recommends this) or possibly one month (for longer works) reading, discussing, analyzing, and writing about each book, you would have a manageable schedule. In the spring of this last year, Omnibus had us reading one Shakespeare work every two weeks. I guess that's good for an overview, but from my POV, I would have preferred a more in-depth study of the plays. Nevertheless, it was a good introduction for the kids (although my oldest had already read a fair amount on her own).

 

As far as history is concerned, I counted history as a separate subject/credit from Omnibus and didn't do history exactly the way they recommend. We read through a number of chapters (most of the book) from World History: A Human Odyssey and just worked through the study guide and their tests. So, I gave them a separate credit each for literature and history. (If you do all of Omnibus, you get three credits: history, literature, and theology). I liked the idea of tests for history, but perhaps that's just my "textbook" background speaking. I think reading, outlining, doing reports weekly would work very well, too, provided you and your dc felt comfortable working through history that way. Keep working with your ds on writing! He's still pretty young; I have a 5th grade dd who is also a reluctant writer. They still have time to improve their writing skills before tackling h.s. level work.

 

For science, we worked through Apologia, so we just followed the text, doing one module (chapter) every two weeks, did as many labs as were manageable, and the tests, so that's how we handled science.

 

I hope someone else chimes in with more answers, and more variety, than I've offered! There are many ways to "slay the beast" of homeschooling in high school, and I've read of multiple approaches on these boards working very, very well!

 

Good luck, and be encouraged!

[Rhondabee]

[quote name=Colleen in NS;383103

For example' date=' in history, it's recommended that the student make an outline, then write reports for two different topics of interest that week. In science, it's do an experiment, write about it, then write a report on a related topic later that week. How do you get a 5th grade boy, reluctant writer, to do all that?? Or is there a different way that's just as good, to arrange writing assignments for these two subjects each week?

 

If anyone else wants to chime in, I'd sure appreciate it. :)

 

I know you don't really want to hear from me *again*!

 

But, just thought I'd remind you re: those history reports, for 5th grade the directions are "to write several sentences (a minimum of three; five to six is better)". So, start at three sentences. Hey - start with one report/week until that's easy-peasy! Basically, I'm shooting for two one-paragraph "reports" with my 5th grader this year.

 

Go look at the samples on the original WTM website: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/galleryindex.php. It will help you guage what an outline, or a report, in 5th grade really looks like. (Sorry, I don't know how to make my link just say "here" - still so much to learn!)

 

Sorry, I failed WTM Science. But, the amount of writing seems pretty much on par with the History recs. The history outline = the experiment write up. The two history "reports" = one longer science report. The sample is 11 sentences, but I would ask for maybe 5 or 6 to start - and work up to a two-paragraph report.

 

(Though, one thing I do utterly despise is having to write out the steps of the experiments when a picture would work better - maybe you could opt to have him draw the set-up of the experiment for that part?)

 

I wish I knew more what to just expose my oldest to, as well. For example, I didn't make my younger ds master The Lord's Prayer in Prima Latina because I knew he would get it again in LCI. That sort of thing. But, I'm guessing that's all part of "teacher education" :glare:. Oh well, guess that's what makes first-borns so tough!

 

Best wishes!

Rhonda

[Colleen in NS]

As far as the literature study, I'm not sure how some decide how many books to work through the WTM/WEM way. We did Omnibus; the first year we didn't get very many of their book selections done at all, which was a big disappointment. This was due to a rather large homeschooling project in the fall. Last year, for Omnibus II, we probably ended up reading about 18 or so books, which was a decent amount. Amazingly enough, we were able to keep on schedule fairly well with the schedule that Omnibus provided! We only skipped a few of the secondary readings, and overall it was a much better year than the previous one.

 

I would say that the amount of books you would cover would depend on the book and the child. As a "guess", I would say if you and your dc spent about three weeks (I think SWB recommends this) or possibly one month (for longer works) reading, discussing, analyzing, and writing about each book, you would have a manageable schedule. In the spring of this last year, Omnibus had us reading one Shakespeare work every two weeks. I guess that's good for an overview, but from my POV, I would have preferred a more in-depth study of the plays. Nevertheless, it was a good introduction for the kids (although my oldest had already read a fair amount on her own).

 

As far as history is concerned, I counted history as a separate subject/credit from Omnibus and didn't do history exactly the way they recommend. We read through a number of chapters (most of the book) from World History: A Human Odyssey and just worked through the study guide and their tests. So, I gave them a separate credit each for literature and history. (If you do all of Omnibus, you get three credits: history, literature, and theology). I liked the idea of tests for history, but perhaps that's just my "textbook" background speaking. I think reading, outlining, doing reports weekly would work very well, too, provided you and your dc felt comfortable working through history that way. Keep working with your ds on writing! He's still pretty young; I have a 5th grade dd who is also a reluctant writer. They still have time to improve their writing skills before tackling h.s. level work.

 

For science, we worked through Apologia, so we just followed the text, doing one module (chapter) every two weeks, did as many labs as were manageable, and the tests, so that's how we handled science.

 

I hope someone else chimes in with more answers, and more variety, than I've offered! There are many ways to "slay the beast" of homeschooling in high school, and I've read of multiple approaches on these boards working very, very well!

 

Good luck, and be encouraged!

 

Thanks again Michelle!

 

Anyone else with more perspective on my original post?

[Colleen in NS]

I know you don't really want to hear from me *again*!

 

But, just thought I'd remind you re: those history reports, for 5th grade the directions are "to write several sentences (a minimum of three; five to six is better)". So, start at three sentences. Hey - start with one report/week until that's easy-peasy! Basically, I'm shooting for two one-paragraph "reports" with my 5th grader this year.

 

Go look at the samples on the original WTM website: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/galleryindex.php. It will help you guage what an outline, or a report, in 5th grade really looks like. (Sorry, I don't know how to make my link just say "here" - still so much to learn!)

 

Sorry, I failed WTM Science. But, the amount of writing seems pretty much on par with the History recs. The history outline = the experiment write up. The two history "reports" = one longer science report. The sample is 11 sentences, but I would ask for maybe 5 or 6 to start - and work up to a two-paragraph report.

 

(Though, one thing I do utterly despise is having to write out the steps of the experiments when a picture would work better - maybe you could opt to have him draw the set-up of the experiment for that part?)

 

I wish I knew more what to just expose my oldest to, as well. For example, I didn't make my younger ds master The Lord's Prayer in Prima Latina because I knew he would get it again in LCI. That sort of thing. But, I'm guessing that's all part of "teacher education" :glare:. Oh well, guess that's what makes first-borns so tough!

 

Best wishes!

Rhonda

 

I never, ever mind hearing from you. And I still wish you lived near me. :)

 

History reports - see, I've read those instructions in WTM over and over and what do you think *I* take away from them? "Five or six is better." But now that you, an outside perspective from my brain, have pointed that out to me to start with three, it's entirely possible that I could shoot for two one paragraph reports of three sentences per week!

 

We started the new year this week, so I'm muddling my way through, trying to figure things out. I have a schedule and general lesson plans for each day of the week for each child, but now it's all being put the test of reality.

 

Thus, my original post. :)

[Cindy in Indy]

but this is what we're focusing on with my 9th grader this fall:

Jacob's Algebra

Apologia Biology

Henle Latin

Omnibus I (modified schedule; discuss with group 1/week)

Lively Art of Writing (essay writing - 1/week)

 

The math, science, and latin content should be mastered. But how can one "master" Great Books study or essay writing? I'm shooting for familiarity (Great Books) and basic competency (essay writing). I figure it takes a lifetime to "master" those areas.

 

One area where I've deviated from WTM - formal logic study. I'm thinking of introducing practical logic (like Weston's Rulebook for Arguments or Kreeft's Socratic Logic), that he can get "familiar" with and put into practice in his writing.

 

In from 4th-8th grade, we did English grammar and writing. I hope to not have to study formal grammar in high school (hope we've "mastered" enough to put it into practice).

 

FWIW,

Cindy

[HollyinNNV]

One area where I've deviated from WTM - formal logic study. I'm thinking of introducing practical logic (like Weston's Rulebook for Arguments or Kreeft's Socratic Logic), that he can get "familiar" with and put into practice in his writing.

 

 

FWIW,

Cindy

 

Rulebook for Arguments is fine but Kreeft's Soc. Logic is AWESOME! One of my all-time favorite books. When I taught Traditional Logic II at a co-op, sometimes I'd bring in excerpts of the Kreeft for fun. I had students ask me to borrow the book to take home and read because they enjoyed the excerpts so much.

Holly

[Colleen in NS]

The math, science, and latin content should be mastered. But how can one "master" Great Books study or essay writing? I'm shooting for familiarity (Great Books) and basic competency (essay writing). I figure it takes a lifetime to "master" those areas.

 

One area where I've deviated from WTM - formal logic study. I'm thinking of introducing practical logic (like Weston's Rulebook for Arguments or Kreeft's Socratic Logic), that he can get "familiar" with and put into practice in his writing.

 

In from 4th-8th grade, we did English grammar and writing. I hope to not have to study formal grammar in high school (hope we've "mastered" enough to put it into practice).

 

FWIW,

Cindy

 

Thanks for your reply! It helps to read about what other people are doing.

 

About GB study - that to me is content, and I was more wondering about mastering skills, and if so, how do you decide which skills to master (there are so many to choose from)? Things like math, grammar, Latin vocab and grammar. Those are basic skills to me, that will be useful later on in content study. But what I was thinking when I originally posted was, "how do people decide how much of logic skills to master, or how much of writing skills to master, or how much of other foreign language skills to master, or even how much of music and art skills to master?"

 

Your paragraph about logic is the kind of answer I was looking for in my original post - I was wondering what people's thought processes were in deciding what skills to master and what to just get familiar with. So (if you don't mind me digging further into your thought process:)), how/why did you decide to deviate from a more formal logic study? Is a familiarity with logic good enough for later writing? These are the kinds of things I don't know, and it's so helpful to hear how others think these decisions through.

 

My "problem" is (and I'm glad to have this problem overall :lol:) that the WTM has opened up a whole new world to me, of being able to study many things, using many skills that can be mastered. I'm very, very grateful for having a map now, a whole new world of possibility - but how do others decide what *skills* to focus on, after math, grammar, and Latin, through the years of educating your kids?

[Cindy in Indy]

 

Your paragraph about logic is the kind of answer I was looking for in my original post - I was wondering what people's thought processes were in deciding what skills to master and what to just get familiar with. So (if you don't mind me digging further into your thought process:)), how/why did you decide to deviate from a more formal logic study? Is a familiarity with logic good enough for later writing? These are the kinds of things I don't know, and it's so helpful to hear how others think these decisions through.

 

 

Colleen,

I'm still thinking about your question. I try to keep in mind the goal of giving my children enough mastery to become "lifelong learners", confident that they have the tools they need to learn anything they want to as they go through life. (Like I want to learn how to use these boards more efficiently ;)).

 

Two threads that have helped me think about how to get to the end goal are "TWEM..." started by Nan in Mass and "How to make high school enjoyable and not overly pressured for your dc?" by RoughCollie. There were many thought-provoking comments in those threads. Stuff to chew on and mull over... I think you can find them pretty easily by using the search function.

 

As an example of a specific academic goal, I would like ds to learn Latin well enough to be able to read Virgil (and other Roman authors) in the original. That will take quite a bit of mastery. I am trying to master it alongside, for moral support and for my own growth (setting a good example, I hope).

 

When I purchased a logic program and started working through it this spring, I thought "this is so tedious. Does he really need to know all this terminology? Or does he "just" need the practical skills of defining terms clearly, and making true judgments and logically valid arguments?" That's what got me thinking about trying the Kreeft book (Socratic Logic). That book is laid out in clearly-marked sections, so you can just do "the basics" adding in the more "advanced" and "philosophical" sections as you need/wish to. I'm currently outlining it, to see how much help I think it will be. I'll probably ask ds to outline the "basic" sections this (freshman) year to lay a foundation as we attempt to construct logical essays. I suppose that outlining is a pretty WTM-ish activity.

 

I guess part of this journey is not knowing exactly what it will take to achieve our goals. So we ask questions, investigate options, pray for wisdom, make the best choices with the information we have today, and trust that the resulting fruit will be delightful.

 

HTH,

Cindy

[Cindy in Indy]

Rulebook for Arguments is fine but Kreeft's Soc. Logic is AWESOME! One of my all-time favorite books. When I taught Traditional Logic II at a co-op, sometimes I'd bring in excerpts of the Kreeft for fun. I had students ask me to borrow the book to take home and read because they enjoyed the excerpts so much.

Holly

 

I'm glad to know how you used the Kreeft. He does have lively examples. Thanks for your positive input!

 

-Cindy

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen,

I'm still thinking about your question. I try to keep in mind the goal of giving my children enough mastery to become "lifelong learners", confident that they have the tools they need to learn anything they want to as they go through life. (Like I want to learn how to use these boards more efficiently ;)).

 

Two threads that have helped me think about how to get to the end goal are "TWEM..." started by Nan in Mass and "How to make high school enjoyable and not overly pressured for your dc?" by RoughCollie. There were many thought-provoking comments in those threads. Stuff to chew on and mull over... I think you can find them pretty easily by using the search function.

 

As an example of a specific academic goal, I would like ds to learn Latin well enough to be able to read Virgil (and other Roman authors) in the original. That will take quite a bit of mastery. I am trying to master it alongside, for moral support and for my own growth (setting a good example, I hope).

 

When I purchased a logic program and started working through it this spring, I thought "this is so tedious. Does he really need to know all this terminology? Or does he "just" need the practical skills of defining terms clearly, and making true judgments and logically valid arguments?" That's what got me thinking about trying the Kreeft book (Socratic Logic). That book is laid out in clearly-marked sections, so you can just do "the basics" adding in the more "advanced" and "philosophical" sections as you need/wish to. I'm currently outlining it, to see how much help I think it will be. I'll probably ask ds to outline the "basic" sections this (freshman) year to lay a foundation as we attempt to construct logical essays. I suppose that outlining is a pretty WTM-ish activity.

 

I guess part of this journey is not knowing exactly what it will take to achieve our goals. So we ask questions, investigate options, pray for wisdom, make the best choices with the information we have today, and trust that the resulting fruit will be delightful.

 

HTH,

Cindy

 

Yes, this helps. Thank you for sharing your thought process on the example of logic skills.

 

And I will take your last paragraph to heart. :) And it would probably help me if I were to start clarifying some more specific goals for my kids (like start algebra 1 in grade 8 so they can possibly get to calculus by 12th if they want to, or make sure they can outline well by the end of 8th grade, so they can move to high school writing more easily. But those are easy for me - the Latin, vocab. and other foreign languages.....I need to think about end goals more, I guess).

 

Thank you for your input!

[Gwen in VA]

Before I could answer the question "What subjects did my students learn for mastery and what just for familiarity" I need to think about the child. What are his/her strengths? Gifts? Plans for the future?

 

For example, my third child is going to be an engineer. He is an engineer already in mind and spirit, and he HATES reading, languages, writing, etc. Obviously I am working with him so he can read well and so he can write decently, but he is not going to take an AP English course. If he can write a decent 5-paragraph essay at the end of this coming year (his 9th grade year), I will be ecstatic. So while I say that writing is an absolutely essential part of everyone's education, my goals for him in part reflect who he is and the skills God gave him.

 

My older daughter is going into art conservation, and she has a passion for science. I would certainly not say that mastery of physical sciences is a requirement for all students, but for her mastery of chemistry and physics was important.

 

Study your kids. What are their gifts? Where are they interested in heading? Develop those gifts!

[Colleen in NS]

Before I could answer the question "What subjects did my students learn for mastery and what just for familiarity"

 

Thank you for your reply, too!

 

If I change one word in your quote - from "subjects" to "skills," then the quote would more accurately reflect what I am trying to figure out.

 

I do understand that by high school, there can be a leaning towards one content area more than to another. Or than in middle grades, you can delve into one particular area of history for a few weeks, or of science, or lit..

 

It's the skills part I'm wondering about. Does that make sense?

 

I do see from your post that writing skills to some extent are important to you, regardless of whatever struggles your son is having. So in your teaching of writing to him, how do you decide how far to take his writing skills?

 

BTW, I am wondering if you are also the poster GVA. I just noticed recently that there is Gwen in VA and GVA, and I always thought you were both the same person! :)

[Gwen in VA]

I think I understand your question better now.

 

Nope, I'm just "Gwen in VA," not "GVA." Different people!

 

I guess that I decide how far to take the skills based on

 

1) Student interest -- does the student care? (My older son is absolutely amazing in logic but prefers to actually apply it and not study it endlessly -- we quit after MP Trad Logic 2).

 

2) Student ability -- Writing is important to me, but I can't draw water from a stone, and I truly do not believe that I will ever get my 2nd son to write fluently. (We've already held him back a year so maturity is not an issue with his writing -- his writing skills are!) We will persevere, but for him math/science/computer science skills are much higher on the pecking order.

 

3) Relevance to what the kid wants to do / where the kid is headed. Both of my older children despise analyzing literature. (They read copious quantities and love discussing it with me -- they just despise writing analytical essays and "finding meaning" in stuff). Neither is headed into an area where lit analysis will matter at all. They both do/will attend an elite LAC, so they need fundamental lit skills, but honestly I could care less if they can't master lit analysis on a post-grad level. Dd got an A in her lit class this year, and she will never have to take another lit class again -- we're happy.

 

My younger son will be an engineer, so while strong writing skills would be a plus, they are not absolutely essential. (Dh is an engineer, and his writing skills are in contant use, so I do know that writing is ALWAYS useful.) We will continue to work with him, but writing is not going to be the backbone of his high school education.

 

Each year I prioritize for the kids what areas/skills/subjects I consider the most important for that year. I made my ds's list for next year. Out of ten areas, history and writing and literature were at the bottom. (Sorry, WTM!) That does not mean that I don't consider them important, but for this kid who is headed in this direction, they are the least important of all his skills/subjects. KWIM?

 

In summary, it all depends.......

[Colleen in NS]

I think I understand your question better now.

 

Nope, I'm just "Gwen in VA," not "GVA." Different people!

 

I guess that I decide how far to take the skills based on

 

1) Student interest -- does the student care? (My older son is absolutely amazing in logic but prefers to actually apply it and not study it endlessly -- we quit after MP Trad Logic 2).

 

2) Student ability -- Writing is important to me, but I can't draw water from a stone, and I truly do not believe that I will ever get my 2nd son to write fluently. (We've already held him back a year so maturity is not an issue with his writing -- his writing skills are!) We will persevere, but for him math/science/computer science skills are much higher on the pecking order.

 

3) Relevance to what the kid wants to do / where the kid is headed. Both of my older children despise analyzing literature. (They read copious quantities and love discussing it with me -- they just despise writing analytical essays and "finding meaning" in stuff). Neither is headed into an area where lit analysis will matter at all. They both do/will attend an elite LAC, so they need fundamental lit skills, but honestly I could care less if they can't master lit analysis on a post-grad level. Dd got an A in her lit class this year, and she will never have to take another lit class again -- we're happy.

 

My younger son will be an engineer, so while strong writing skills would be a plus, they are not absolutely essential. (Dh is an engineer, and his writing skills are in contant use, so I do know that writing is ALWAYS useful.) We will continue to work with him, but writing is not going to be the backbone of his high school education.

 

Each year I prioritize for the kids what areas/skills/subjects I consider the most important for that year. I made my ds's list for next year. Out of ten areas, history and writing and literature were at the bottom. (Sorry, WTM!) That does not mean that I don't consider them important, but for this kid who is headed in this direction, they are the least important of all his skills/subjects. KWIM?

 

In summary, it all depends.......

 

Yup, it all depends. And I really appreciate your time in typing out your thinking process for each year for each child. It helps me. We're just starting grade 5 with my oldest, and I'm starting to see why people with older kids start now to have to prioritize what skills to work on to mastery with their kids, and what skills to touch on but not worry about mastering. Just when I got "grammar stage" all figured out.....LOL! And even that's a joke because my younger child, a dd, is different from ds. Always learning and changing around here. :) Thanks again!