amyco Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Regarding the ablatives of agent and means: Is the ablative of agent used strictly for people, or can it include animals too? Equo tractus erat. (Written as ablative of means.) Is that correct, or should it be "Ab equo tractus erat."? (Written as ablative of agent.) Is there a definitive answer? I checked my Henle Grammar, and it is unclear. Henle says that the ablative of means is used for a NON-LIVING agent (capitalized and everything). Surely if a horse is going to drag something, it has to be alive. None of his examples for either were using animals. I know there are some Latin scholars on here that can clear it up for us!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) Regarding the ablatives of agent and means: Is the ablative of agent used strictly for people, or can it include animals too? I don't claim to be a Latin expert, but when you want to be sure, it helps to consult a good Latin grammar. There's a bunch of free ones out of copyright on the web, I'm sure every Latin scholar has their favorite. From Allen & Grennough's New Latin Grammar, section 405, at the Perseus web site: [*] Note 2.--An animal is sometimes regarded as the means or instrument, sometimes as the agent. Hence both the simple ablative and the ablative with ab occur:— equō vehī, to ride on horseback (be conveyed by means of a horse). [Not ab equō .] “clipeōs ā mūribus esse dērōsōs ” (Div. 1.99) , that the shields were gnawed by mice. So, I think your answer depends on what you want to convey -- how much free will did the equus have in the tractus'ing? Edited February 29, 2012 by GGardner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amyco Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 Thank you for responding, and for the link to a free Latin grammar! I will have to investigate that further. I had a feeling this issue wasn't entirely cut and dried; I guess it isn't surprising that it's pretty nuanced given the precision of Latin. And apparently I didn't (still don't, really) completely understand the difference between a means and an agent. I just thought one was for living things and one was for non-living things when you use the passive. Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Agents are animated beings (people or animals). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amyco Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 Thank you, Ester Maria! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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