Having an issue with the outlining in Classical Composition

[Tiramisu]

We're only really starting this program, but I have a problem with the outlining. The template and the sample outline has the first sentence of a new paragraph grouped under a previous heading in the outline. This really irks me because I feel its detrimental for students understanding the organization of writing. My sense is that paragraphs should stick to one topic and that they should be outlined (or outlineable) based on that topic with its own heading/main idea, and the details of the paragraph included underneath.

 

I really don't like that one section of a paragraph should be included under the heading of another paragraph while the rest of the paragraph has its own heading in the outline.

 

I realize that not all writing is so simple and not all writing is organized well. But, if I'm teaching writing, I think I need to use samples of well-organized writing with correspondingly well-organized outlines to illustrate to dd what good writing is so she can learn to do it.

 

Other than that, I like CC, but this is a problem for me...

[Create Your Ritual]

I'm not sure I am following you. Sorry... it might be too early in the morning for me. I will say that 1Togo came up with her own way of outlining and gave me a copy of the outline she uses. Perhaps you could pm her for it. I haven't had too much trouble doing outlining this way. I understand that it would be a bit different from outlining reference material for a report or something.

 

1Togo essentially does it by outlining

 

I. Setting

II. Problem

III. Solving the problem

IV. Conclusion

 

I guess for me, we are just getting the order of the story down so that we can retell it orally with no problems and use it to guide our writing. Can you write your outline out here so I can see what you mean exactly?

[Tiramisu]

If you look at the Fables TM on pages 18 and 19 you'll see the fable on the left and the sample outline on the right (the template for the outline in the student workbook follows the points of the sample outline). Under II on p. 19, there are A,B,C,A, and A. I'm assuming the last two A's are typos and should be D and E, as the student outline template shows. The last A (really E) says "The Chrysalis heard this but did not make any reply." "The Chrysalis heard this but did not make any reply," is actually the first sentence of the next paragraph and is not part of the ant's monologue which is II. II is "Ant's Monologue" in the sample outline on p. 19.

 

The same exact outline phenomenon (?) happens in L. 2 if you look at how the end of the dialogue and how it's outlined, pages 26-27.

 

I can see how those last sentence are related to the dialogue in each case, but I don't like the connection between how the fable is written and how it's outlined. Maybe the there's no problem with the outline, but there is a problem with the writing. ??

 

Why 1Togo decided to come up with her own system of outlining the fables? Did she see a weakness in how it's set up in CC? Her way does seem to make more sense. It's logical.

 

I did like the idea of using those templates, though, because it seemed like it would provide a reliable guide that dd was on the right track. I also was hoping that the kind of outlining dd would learn would be more applicable to all kinds of writing. :001_smile:

[1Togo]

Sending you a pm.

[1Togo]

In the example you are citing, Roman Numeral III begins the Reversal, which is the reason for the placement of II. E. It's not a part of the Reversal.

[Create Your Ritual]

1Togo can you send me the same pm? I would like to have your clarification and opinion, if there is more to say about it than the above. Thanks.

[Tiramisu]

In the example you are citing, Roman Numeral III begins the Reversal, which is the reason for the placement of II. E. It's not a part of the Reversal.

 

I see what you mean. I wonder why the sentence was included in that paragraph if it wasn't part of the reversal.

 

I realize I'm looking at the connection between paragraphs and outlining very strictly.

 

Gotta run, but thanks for the pm. I'll pm back later.

[Create Your Ritual]

I can see why this wasn't making any sense to me. I never used that outline. I just went with 1Togo's and what made sense to me at the time with retelling the story. My dc seem to inherently know where to add a figure of description, so I haven't needed to refer back to the outline for that. I guess it's all going great for us. NJKelli, if you are interested in seeing some of our work you can view one of their stories at http://www.lettheodysseybegin.blogspot.com .. It's not perfect, but a good start. Tomorrow we are working on shifting adjectives out of order and mixing them up in the sentence. I noticed dd was trying to load a bunch of them into her first sentence and had her remove some. I've been bringing in a little Image Grammar from Noden... his 5 brush strokes are great. But, certainly not necessary.

[Tiramisu]

I can see why this wasn't making any sense to me. I never used that outline. I just went with 1Togo's and what made sense to me at the time with retelling the story. My dc seem to inherently know where to add a figure of description, so I haven't needed to refer back to the outline for that. I guess it's all going great for us. NJKelli, if you are interested in seeing some of our work you can view one of their stories at www.lettheodysseybegin.blogspot.com .. It's not perfect, but a good start. Tomorrow we are working on shifting adjectives out of order and mixing them up in the sentence. I noticed dd was trying to load a bunch of them into her first sentence and had her remove some. I've been bringing in a little Image Grammar from Noden... his 5 brush strokes are great. But, certainly not necessary.

 

Interesting that you're using Image Grammar. We're using Killgallon.

 

Dd is solid with the retelling and has really impressed me with how she incorporates the figures of description. Having gone through Writing Tales and narrating in other subjects, she really doesn't need any more retelling of fables and such, but the figures of description are interesting. Telling the fable backwards was more of a challenge.

 

Dd actually never refers to the the outline either. At the same time, I really want dd to get more practice with traditional outlining and I was hoping she could get it through CC but I'm starting to think the fables level doesn't have not exactly what I'm looking for in terms of outlining. Besides the template/sample outline issue, the stories are so short. Some are only one paragraph. I may have to look at WWS. I could have dd outline from other subjects, but sometimes I think I'd like a little more help in guiding dd.

 

Perhaps I could just cut out the outlining part of CC and go with outlining something else. I'm starting to think we wouldn't be missing anything.

 

Even though everyone isn't big on outlining, I've seen how helpful it has been for my dd in high school. Even if she doesn't always write down the outline, it's become part of how she naturally organizes her thoughts when writing an essay. When I think of the papers I had to write in grad school, I think making use of outlining would helped me clarify my thoughts and made the whole process easier.

 

Thanks for the link. I look forward to looking at the stories.:)