Math Woes

[kchara]

I need help with my 10 yo DD. Math is our major, MAJOR problem. She does Saxon (she also does MUS, but we need to order the next level, so she's doing just Saxon now). We have tried Rod and Staff, Teaching Textbooks, Ray's, and me finding worksheets and trying to just teach her myself. Nothing has worked, or is working. I'm so completely at my wit's end here! Today, she had to do double digit subtraction with regrouping. This is something she should know. We've been over and over and over it. Her father has been over and over and over it with her. But, she's still upstairs doing it (6 hours later...), hasn't done ANYTHING else all day, and I'm betting that when I grade it, it will be mostly wrong.

 

DH wants me to get her another computer based program. He thinks that having someone else "teach" her might help. But, it didn't help with TT, and with MUS, she watches the videos, and it doesn't really help with that, either.

 

I don't know what to do. The girl can't be allowed to *not* know math, you know? She doesn't even really try.

 

I'm thinking of moving into Life of Fred, maybe. Has anyone used the new elementary curriculum? It says on their placement questions to put her at the beginning if she doesn't have her addition and multiplication down cold. Start with Apples and don't skip a book. She has her addition down (I think, for the most part), but not multiplication. Definitely not division.

 

Am I missing another system that might work better? I just don't know what to do with her anymore. .

[scrapbabe]

Maybe having fun with math right now is a good option. Let her enjoy math and feel successful at it without the pressure of being graded. Read fun math books together, play lots of math games, make it something enjoyable. It's possible she has just learned to hate math because she feels she isn't good at it. Some 10 year olds aren't ready for multi-digit subtraction with regrouping. Maybe she doesn't understand the concept. Could you use manipulatives to give her a concrete way to see how you could borrow numbers from the tens column. Base ten blocks are great for these. If children don't have a solid understanding of place value, the simplest things can become difficult.

I think Life of Fred could be fun if you use it for fun and don't push/pressure her. Check out http://www.livingmath.net for articles, game ideas, and book ideas. It sounds like she just needs to get over her math phobia and play with math for awhile. Another good read is Math Power http://www.amazon.com/Math-Power-Help-Child-Revised/dp/0132205947/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1313538259&sr=8-1

 

Best of luck.

[busymotherof4]

I have a few thoughts but don't know if they will help.

Is her handwriting messy? My 10 is very bright at math but way behind in handwriting. He does thing like not line up a problem correctly or writes a number but can't read it when he does the problem.

I sometimes write for him to help him.

Another thought : Does she hate math? Is she spending her time day dreaming and such.

How many problems does she have to do each day?

Does she think its hopeless that she will ever finish?

Can you have her work by you and limit the time and problems she needs to do?

If she can complete 5 problems of one type correctly would you let her be done for the day with that type?

Could you work step by step through a few problems with her? You work on 1 piece of paper and she works on her own. Compare after each step. This can catch a mistake in process or understanding.

If she still needs to learn her math facts maybe use the computer or offer a reward when she is at a certain level.

My daughter is using both Saxon math and life of Fred right now. She says saxon is boring but LOF doesn't have enough problems for her. We agreed that when she starts completing Saxon with only a mistake or 2 we will cut down the number of problems she needs to do. In one lesson she went from 6 wrong to 2 on the next lesson (1 problem she forgot to do). She also is required to correct all her mistakes the next day.

 

I hope something I wrote is helpful. YMMV

[kchara]

Thank you both for your responses!

 

Yes, she spends her time daydreaming. A lot. Pretty much all day, but math is definitely her worst time of it. I gave up for a while, made DH teach her, but he never did any lessons with her, so something had to break. The girl has to do her math!

 

Her handwriting is pretty good, when she applies herself. She's getting lazy about it, but she *can* write really well.

 

Right now, she only has 20 problems to complete a day. Just the problem set in her Saxon 54 book. We're not doing MUS right now, b/c I need to order the next level. It took her about 3 hours on one lesson today. DH assigned her two, because they were both review, and she should've known everything and been able to breeze through it.

 

She plays Math Rider and Timez Attack most days on the computer, for 1/2 an hour, at least.

 

She's had manipulatives to work with, the Math U See blocks. She went through regrouping with that, but apparently it didn't sink in.

 

I think a big problem is that she hates taking the time to actually *do* the work, so she tries to use tricks to work the problem. Except she doesn't use the tricks they teach her, b/c she says that still takes too long. So, she makes them up as she goes along, they make absolutely no sense, or they're the exact opposite of what she *should* be doing, and she gets it wrong.

 

For example, she'll have a problem like 43-28=? She'll put something to the effect of 25. When we ask her how she got there, she'll say, "Well, 8-3=5, and 4-2=2, so it must be 25." :banghead: Now, she *knows* that you can't do that, so what it boils down to is intellectual laziness.

 

And that's really where I'm stumped. DH took a look at LOF, and he said we might be able to use it as a supplement, and that she'd probably enjoy it better. But, he doesn't want to use it as our stand-alone. But, OTOH, how many programs do I get this kid who doesn't even seem to be *trying* before I just call it a discipline issue and work it that way? If she's not getting it, I understand (or I try to, anyway), but if it's literally the same concept we're going over day after day after day for months on end...

 

I'm very frustrated. Can you tell? ;)

[Mandy in TN]

This solution may not be the one you want to hear. Sit and do the Saxon lesson with her. Model how it is done. Get a Kumon addition workbook or print off pages and pages of the same type of problem from somewhere online for free. Drill. Begin with simple addition, then simple subtraction, then mutiple digit addition, then multiple digit subtraction, then addition with carrying, and then subtraction with borrowing. Then move on to simple multiplication, then simple division, then simple division with remainders, then multiple digit multiplication, and finally long division. This is basically the same sequence as MUS. Meet her wherever she has complete mastery. Start her there, where she already feels successful, and move forward from that point.

Sit beside her and do 5 or 10 of the drill problems aloud. Don't expect her to do any of the work, because you are just modeling. Just continue to engage her with eye contact and comments. Then do 5 or 10 asking her each step, but you do the writing. If she is struggling, stop there and do the same type of problem same process the next day. When she can work orally at a reasonable pace, hand her the pencil, but still sit with her and talk her through the problems. Continue moving her along in this manner.

Continue with Saxon, but have her do the mental section and the practice orally. Oh, and never, ever let her do an entire lesson before you grade it. For that matter, always, always have her in the room with you while she does math. Check each problem as it is completed. If she daydreams, gently tap her paper and softly say just one word. Focus is the word I use, but work, go, and next are all just as good.

(OF course, read her. If she has had all she can take for the day, put it on the shelf and move on to the next subject.)

You need to work hard while being patient and diligent and demanding at least 1.5 hours of face time twice a week. Notice I didn't say she needed to work patiently and diligently while sitting with you. She doesn't know how to do this. You need to show her, model for her, these things.

FWIW, I have BTDT with Cuppycake. It took about 15 months (continuing light during the summer) to get through 54 and 65 and a lot of supplementing to promote proficiency. She is now beginning 6th grade and Saxon 76. Cuppycake is not my child. She is my not-a-niece that I have twice a week. She hated math and sometimes I think she didn't like me much either. However, aside from listening, can you guess what her highest score was on her standardized test this spring? Yep, math.

HTH-

Mandy

[TracyR]

You could give LOF a try and see if it helps. Saxon is a good math program, but I like Christian Light a little big better;>) It seems to really get the point to the kids.

Either way you could give LOF a try and see if it helps things and then go back to Saxon later on.

[regentrude]

Yes, she spends her time daydreaming. A lot. Pretty much all day, but math is definitely her worst time of it. I gave up for a while, made DH teach her, but he never did any lessons with her, so something had to break. The girl has to do her math!

...

Right now, she only has 20 problems to complete a day. Just the problem set in her Saxon 54 book. We're not doing MUS right now, b/c I need to order the next level. It took her about 3 hours on one lesson today. DH assigned her two, because they were both review, and she should've known everything and been able to breeze through it.

 

I think a big problem is that she hates taking the time to actually *do* the work, so she tries to use tricks to work the problem. Except she doesn't use the tricks they teach her, b/c she says that still takes too long. So, she makes them up as she goes along, they make absolutely no sense, or they're the exact opposite of what she *should* be doing, and she gets it wrong.

 

 

 

I see that you have a large family and are probably extremely busy - but I think she needs somebody to sit with her while she does her math. Spending three hours on math and doing it wrong is not effective.

An adult may have to sit with her and watches what she does. I would make her TALK about every single problem. Make her explain every single step she does - and have a discussion when things begin to go wrong. Some kids must talk about math in order to make it click (instead of just following some give algorithm or "trick", where they may not have understood the whole background behind it.).

By working WITH her, you can also refocus her as soon as she begins to daydream.

You might try to work with her on a blackboard or whiteboard.

 

I do not think it is a matter of simply changing curriculum and sending her to her room to spend hours with a different math book.