Have a Henle ? for any of you Latin scholars

[newlifemom]

Do I understand this correctly, intransitive verbs cannot be passive? We are working on lesson 21 and I had the students conjugating them and they couldn't do convenio, convire, conveni, conventum. We tried to make it passive in English and couldn't do it. Of course, it could be the tutor. :P

 

I will probably x-post this, but I am anxious for an answer. Already posted on the yahoo group.

 

TIA

[Ester Maria]

I'm not sure what exactly your question is.

The full description of the verb is convenio, conveni, conventum, 4. tr. et intr.

 

When intransitive, it's used to mean to unite / find yourself together in an active meaning (c. in/ad+ACC, in+ABL, or with the adverb of place); to concord / be in concord; impersonally as convenit (the most common form of that verb probably); convenit + INF/ACC or INF+ut+subjunctive has by default a passive meaning ("It is natural / recommended / bla to..."). You have a locution convenit inter omnes ("It is the opinion of everybody").

 

Semantically, it can be both active and passive in spite of lacking a passive form - but again, I'm not sure what exactly is your question. I don't use Henle.

[newlifemom]

I'm not sure what exactly your question is.

The full description of the verb is convenio, conveni, conventum, 4. tr. et intr.

 

When intransitive, it's used to mean to unite / find yourself together in an active meaning (c. in/ad+ACC, in+ABL, or with the adverb of place); to concord / be in concord; impersonally as convenit (the most common form of that verb probably); convenit + INF/ACC or INF+ut+subjunctive has by default a passive meaning ("It is natural / recommended / bla to..."). You have a locution convenit inter omnes ("It is the opinion of everybody").

 

Semantically, it can be both active and passive in spite of lacking a passive form - but again, I'm not sure what exactly is your question. I don't use Henle.

 

Will you come live with me and teach me? :D

 

I am way behind you. Wow! Um, Henle's definition for Convenio is "Come together/assemble". We have not learned subjunctive yet so that is not a part of my question, though interesting. How about if I conjugated it and showed you our problem.

 

I want to put it into perfect passive, thus:

 

conventum sunt

 

they have come together

 

or pluperfect

 

conventum erant

 

they had come together

 

But that does not feel right. First of all, it appears I have no way to show masc or feminine as I would for transitive verbs. Second, it doesn't look like the passive in translation. Granted it is 11pm and I am tired, so it is possible that I simply am not seeing something obvious. [Of course, it could also be that I am not that smart either. :tongue_smilie:]

 

I hope this makes a little more sense to you. I respect your opinion very much.

 

Finally, I wonder [due to your response] that possibly it is more to do with the fact that my knowledge of Latin is still so small compared to what is knowable that we are trying to do something that we do not have the proper skills for, yet.

 

Thanks :001_smile:

[Ester Maria]

conventum sunt

 

they have come together

 

or pluperfect

 

conventum erant

 

they had come together

Wait, wait. :)

 

Conventi sunt/erant, because you gave examples of plural - yes, it exists, with a slightly altered meaning, but it exists. All of those -venio verbs have passive forms too.

 

Now, not to confuse you, but I think what troubles you is the differentiation between grammatical active/passive and semantic active/passive. The two do NOT necessarily coincide!

 

There is a whole set of verbs in Latin (verba deponenta et semideponenta) which has passive FORMS, but active MEANINGS. For example, loquor, loctus sum, loqui has passive forms, but it means "I speak", NOT "I am spoken", as you might think when you see them the first time.

Even among non-deponent verbs there are those who "switch" the meaning from active to passive according to context: for example, potus can mean the one that drank (act.) or that which has been drunk (pass.).

Then there are intransitive verbs which lack the form of the past participle, but can form the same meaning using cum+subjunctive - and venio is sometimes in this group. Consuli, cum Romam venissent is often the way to avoid participle, though you CAN use participle too with an active meaning, and that's probably what confuses you about convenio, because it behaves the same way as venio.

 

Translation is tricky because of those things, to know it well how to translate it in which case, you have to know syntax, which you haven't studied yet I assume, so try not to worry about it for now. :)

[newlifemom]

Wait, wait. :)

 

Conventi sunt/erant, because you gave examples of plural - yes, it exists, with a slightly altered meaning, but it exists. All of those -venio verbs have passive forms too.

 

Now, not to confuse you, but I think what troubles you is the differentiation between grammatical active/passive and semantic active/passive. The two do NOT necessarily coincide!

 

There is a whole set of verbs in Latin (verba deponenta et semideponenta) which has passive FORMS, but active MEANINGS. For example, loquor, loctus sum, loqui has passive forms, but it means "I speak", NOT "I am spoken", as you might think when you see them the first time.

Even among non-deponent verbs there are those who "switch" the meaning from active to passive according to context: for example, potus can mean the one that drank (act.) or that which has been drunk (pass.).

Then there are intransitive verbs which lack the form of the past participle, but can form the same meaning using cum+subjunctive - and venio is sometimes in this group. Consuli, cum Romam venissent is often the way to avoid participle, though you CAN use participle too with an active meaning, and that's probably what confuses you about convenio, because it behaves the same way as venio.

 

Translation is tricky because of those things, to know it well how to translate it in which case, you have to know syntax, which you haven't studied yet I assume, so try not to worry about it for now. :)

 

 

Thank you for your kind patience with me, Ester. Once again I am left with the thought, "The more I learn, the less I know." Rather humbling at times. :D

 

I am seriously considering retaking Veritas' Latin in a Week course. I would get so much more out of it after teaching basic, and I mean basic Latin for the last 2 years. :tongue_smilie:

[SonshineLearner]

There's one by Classical Academic Press, too. (for teachers) I think that may be interesting, and I happen to know someone who is thinking of purchasing it. ;)

[newlifemom]

There's one by Classical Academic Press, too. (for teachers) I think that may be interesting, and I happen to know someone who is thinking of purchasing it. ;)

 

Just saw this. I really should subscribe to my threads. Do you have a link for me? :D

[ItsJustMe]

In case anyone is interested, to subscribe to the HenleLatin yahoo group, just send a message to:

 

HenleLatin-subscribe@yahoogroups.com