x-post SWB middle to high school writing

[choirfarm]

Ok, I listened to the tapes once a couple of weeks ago. Then yesterday I listened to the two talks about middle school and high school writing and took notes. One thing I just don't understand is the huge jump. I guess I just don't understand how they are supposed to make it.

 

By 8th grade they should be doing a 3 level outline twice a week. They should then once or twice a week be writing a paper from the outline. They should write a literary response ( 1/2 a page).

In 9th grade they are writing 2 or 3 rhetoric assignments that go with that study. (I'm unclear as to how much or exactly what that is as I have never studied rhetoric.) They write 2 one page persuasive papers a week in history science or literature as well as 1 6-8 page paper per semester.

 

WOW!! They go from writing 3 half page papers to I'm guessing writing assignments from rhetoric, 2 one page papers proving a thesis EVERY week and a long research paper each semester!!! How are they supposed to go from just summaring to writing two papers each week that prove a thesis when they haven't ever done it before!!!!!!

 

Shouldn't there be more of a transition?? I'm thinking my 8th grader might write 1 persuasive paper a week next year. Just confused.

 

Christine

[Melissa B]

I haven't listened to the SWB audios, but based on her 2nd edition book and Writing with Ease here is what I have written down:

 

WTM weekly writing goals:

 

 

8th grade:

 

History - One 3-level outline followed by a 1-2 page paper from the outline later in the week

 

Science - One 3-level outline followed by a 1-2 page paper from the outline later in the week

 

Literature - One 1-2 page paper with some literary analysis

 

Continue with writing program during English studies

 

 

9th grade:

 

History - One 1 page paper per week (student prepares outline/thesis)

 

Science - One 1 page paper per week (student prepares outline/thesis)

 

Literature - One 1 page paper per week (student prepares thesis)

 

* One research paper - 4-6 pages - Per year

 

Continue with writing (rhetoric) program during English studies

 

 

10th grade:

 

Papers now 1 - 1 1/2 pages long.

 

Add one more paper per week in subject of choice.

 

* One research paper - 5-8 pages - per year

 

Continue with rhetoric program

 

 

11th grade:

 

Papers now 1 1/2 - 2 pages long.

 

Add one more paper per week in subject of choice.

 

Continue with rhetoric program

 

* Two research papers - 6-10 page and a 15+ page - per year

 

 

12th grade:

 

Same as 11th except:

 

* Two research papers - 8-12 pages and 20+ pages - per year

 

 

(I generally reread WTM each summer and may make some modifications to my list based on better understanding so YMMV.)

Edited May 26, 2010 by Melissa B

[Colleen in NS]

By 8th grade they should be doing a 3 level outline twice a week. They should then once or twice a week be writing a paper from the outline. They should write a literary response ( 1/2 a page).

In 9th grade they are writing 2 or 3 rhetoric assignments that go with that study. (I'm unclear as to how much or exactly what that is as I have never studied rhetoric.) They write 2 one page persuasive papers a week in history science or literature as well as 1 6-8 page paper per semester.

 

WOW!! They go from writing 3 half page papers to I'm guessing writing assignments from rhetoric, 2 one page papers proving a thesis EVERY week and a long research paper each semester!!! How are they supposed to go from just summaring to writing two papers each week that prove a thesis when they haven't ever done it before!!!!!!

 

I'm going by my impressions/notes/conclusions from the conf. where these were recorded.

 

In 8th grade, they practice doing 3-level outlines, and rewriting from these. The rewrites can be more than a half page if the outline is from several paragraphs. I think that would be fairly easy to set as a guideline - you just decide how many paragraphs you want a child to outline and rewrite from - this will lengthen the rewrite. You can even build the 8th grader up to what will be a one page rewrite, by increasing every few weeks the number of paragraphs to outline. (her def. of "one page" for persuasive papers later is 250-300 words, if that helps)

 

The lit. response around 8th grade - it's gradually built up in previous grades. In 5th and 6th, they are still writing the "what happened" narration, while learning how to talk with you about the analysis questions. In 7th and 8th, they are learning how to answer these questions in writing, starting with one analysis question. Gradually move towards answering two or more analysis questions on paper, and add in answering an evaluation question, teaching them to quote to back up their evaluation opinion. I have in my notes "one page or less." When I look at the analysis/evaluation questions, I can see that if the student has practice talking with you beforehand, there could be quite a bit to put on paper in a page or less. I think it's the learning to talk about it in 5th and 6th grade that helps the student come up with a page's worth of things to write in 8th.

 

9th grade rhetoric study - I have in my notes "3-5 *hours* per week." So it's not 2-3 rhetoric writing assignments. It's that they will spend *time* studying rhetoric (via outlining the rhetoric books and doing any exercises that come up during that). And actually, in the rec'd. 9th grade rhetoric book, there aren't any exercises. WTM recs outlining this book, and providing examples from somewhere of the lesson's ideas. And, she also said in the high school lecture that not all kids will go through all of the rhetoric books - they may just get through the first two or three, stretched out over four years, and that is just fine. The rhetoric study is meant to be applied gradually to the weekly persuasive papers. It's like learning grammar and spelling to enhance writing. You learn rhetoric skills to enhance persuasive writing.

 

So, in 8th grade, you build up the logic stage skills to where the student can write up to a page (those outline/rewrites), and then transition to studying rhetoric and *learning to write* persuasive papers. Even if you use 9th grade to build from a half page to a page, that is OK. It's not that you go from a half page of rewriting in 8th grade to a page of perfectly-proven persuasive writing in Sept. of 9th grade. They have to have some time to get into the rhetoric study first, so they have something to use in learning to write persuasively. SWB also listed ideas to find topics to write persuasively about in each of the content areas. It will take time to learn to prove theses. That's why the one-page, twice per week practice. I figure it's like being introduced to a new grammar concept, and stumbling through the exercises - there'll be mistakes and corrections in thinking, but eventually, it will solidify through these twice-weekly practices.

 

Now here is the hole I had to fill in, in my mind. How do they go from outlining something else and rewriting from that, to outlining their own persuasive thoughts and rewriting from that? I finally decided, it's those R&S "creating an outline from notetaking from reading several books" lessons that we have encountered. I figure; combine the "ideas to find topics" list, the reading my kids will do, the lit. discussion writing learned in 7th-8th grade, the ongoing rhetoric skill learning, and this R&S lesson idea, and we will hopefully come up with thoughts/quotes from books/notes from books to be able to create outlines, from which to write persuasively. I'm guessing that by doing this prep work, it will not be difficult - esp. if we have discussed reading all along - to come up with a cohesive outline to write a page or two from. And I think she limited it to a page or two, so that it's short but consistent practice in coming up with a thesis and proving it. AND, she also emphasized that kids in high school are learning to write this way for the format of it, and not to worry if their papers are "correct" - high school is their practice time. And just think - if you had them writing one page, twice a week, it is easier to talk with the student/guide his thinking about how he proved/attempted to prove his thesis if it's just one page. But I think the idea is that by the end of high school, they will be fairly proficient at coming up with an opinion, and backing it up well. It won't happen at the beginning of high school. At least, that's what I concluded from her talk.:D

 

So to me, 8th and 9th grade seem to be a gradual transition - build up to a page of outline/rewrite and learn how to answer lit. analysis/eval. questions on paper, to starting to learn rhetoric techniques and discussing/gathering notes and quotes to create an outline to write a page from about an opinion. Then keep practicing all through high school, via more reading and more rhetoric study.

 

research papers - In my notes, I have *4* to 8 pages in 9th - I'd probably start with 4. :lol:

 

Hope my untried-but-much-thought-about conclusions help.:)