[Math Woes (and some reading/language discussion beginning on p.4)]

13 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Where is his IQ, if you don't mind us asking?

Average as of last testing, but it keeps going up as he gets older. This could be related to his brain slowly remodeling after perinatal injury, or maybe they just haven't been able to accurately measure his IQ all along because of his communication (esp. low receptive) difficulties. 

12 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I just don't know what part the enceph. plays.

I don't either! It seems to affect every part of him, though. He technically has super mild CP (the rare, non-spastic low-tone kind), growth problems, learning and processing struggles, and I presume his unusual memory stuff is also a direct result. We have a strong family history of giftedness and autism, so I presume that his profile is exactly that of an autistic, gifted individual with a hypoxic ischemic brain injury, who therefore may no longer be gifted, but perhaps has remnants of that wiring.

The biggest struggle is that he has regressions. He can learn something, KNOW it, and then loose it, gone, and have to slowly, painfully relearn it.

13 hours ago, PeterPan said:

How does he do with workbooks? some of the publishers like Teacher Created Materials and Evan-Moor have wonderful workbooks. There's a cut and paste math. There's graphing math art where they color squares (you could use a bingo blotter to make holiday designs. 

He likes workbooks. He can't necessarily write his responses, but he can say or point to what he wants on a choice board and I write it in a light color so he can trace it after. We've also had some success with letting him use stamps... if/when he doesn't get distracted by the stamps and start stacking or lining them up. He LOVES dab-and-dot markers and cut-and-paste activities and can do those kinds of activities for hours at a time. Thanks for all the links and suggestions. I'll order some and we'll see how it goes.

12 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Zone of proximal instruction.

I think my mental struggle is that he's not able to do this stuff with numbers over 10 even *with* me right there coaxing him along. It's just beyond him. We have days where he seems to be on the cusp of getting it, he says or builds or points to something that's right, then it's gone. We had about a week where he was able to say or pull out the matching place -value card for multiples of 10 presented to him on the abacus, but not with base-10 blocks or c-rods or anything else, and then we we took the weekend off and he couldn't do it anymore the following Monday. It's been a couple more weeks and the skill hasn't come back yet. He's frustrated. I'm heartbroken. It's too hard.

12 hours ago, domestic_engineer said:

What about doing the time, money, and Roman numeral lessons with him while you wait for it to click.   If it goes well, maybe you can use those concepts to get back to your current struggles.

I think I'm going to try introducing the whole-part circle sets next week and do some partitioning with 5. He's not yet grasping even/odd or counting by 2s. He's struggling with the "comes after" game. He can't say what number comes after another unless he starts at 1 and counts up, but he often forgets what number he was counting up to, so he just doesn't ever get there. We could really just camp out on these first 20-25 lessons in RS for a while long, I think. He doesn't know the days of the week. We could work on recognize numbers on the dot cards (he only subitizes in particular patterns, and that's not one of them). Clocks are really out of reach, but we can focus on parts of the day like morning, afternoon, evening, earlier, now, later, etc. He gets time words confused and is super stuck on the concept of "tomorrow."

I'll check into that Exploding Dots resource you suggested and try altering the way I'm saying RS number names. Thank you.

11 hours ago, Kanin said:

Can he count objects 1-1 above 10? You could just work on doing that, but not attaching any numerals to the amounts. 

 

How about math stories, like if 4 cats are on the bed and 3 more join them, how many cats are on the bed now?

I think it's probably a good idea to work on counting with 1-to-1 above 10. Thanks for the idea. Math stories are waaaay hard for him. His narrative language is pretty spotty. You can give him 4 bear counters and tell him to get 3 more. Then he can count out the 3 more and count the entire 7 (starting from 1). If you remind him or strategically arrange the 7 into groups of 5 (arranged like the 5s on dice) and 2, he may say there are 7 without counting.

[Math Woes (and some reading/language discussion beginning on p.4)]

I'm trying to decide what direction to go with my 7.5yo (2nd grade age) SN learner and would love your opinions and input.

I'm using a mashup of Right Start 1st edition level A, ST Math kindergarten level, MUS Primer, and my own inventiveness with a variety of other materials and manipulatives. I have a strong math background and already successfully taught my three older kids all of this stuff already, but he's his own animal. Nothing I thought I knew applies.

Altogether it took him 6-7 months to master (90% accuracy or so) subitizing and counting with 1-to-1 correspondence 0-10 along with numeral recognition and matching language, but he eventually got it. He's able to trace numbers 0-10 and can independently write maybe half of them (with a high rate of reversals).

I've now been trying to teach him numbers bigger than 10 for about the last four months and made only very modest progress. He cannot read or comprehend numbers bigger than 10. Fifteen and fifty-five are exactly the same to him because they both have 5s, as are twelve and twenty because they both have 2s. Using RS's special naming system almost seems to make it *worse* because he'll take a number like 25, which RS would call "2-ten 5" and say "two, ten, five," put them all together to make 17, and think it's 25. I've tried using the abacus, base-ten blocks, home-made, Noom-colored c-rods, place-value cards, place-value chips, tally sticks and tally marks, ten-frames, beads and pipe cleaners, MUS's Decimal Street, using fingers from multiple family members, making bundles of rods, basically EVERYTHING at this point. If a number is bigger than 10, he doesn't get it.

Should I keep trying? It took half a year to get 0-10; maybe we just haven't sat with this concept long enough. Perhaps I'm being impatient. 

Should I step away from numbers >10 for a few months and focus more heavily on other math concepts? He can't get past the 25-30% mark in any of these kindergarten curricula we're using because they all incorporate place value to some extent from there on out. Should I ditch the curricula and work on teaching *whatever* he can understand? He seems to get basic addition and subtraction within 10 with manipulatives. Maybe I should try to continue along that line and try to teach him addition and subtraction with symbols? He's pretty good with visual patterns; we could do more patterning. He's starting to show a better grasp of bigger/smaller, greater/less, side/middle (but not left/right). He spontaneously builds some pretty complex things out of blocks, magnatiles, and math manipulatives -- see picture below.

 

Background in case you need it: Recently diagnosed ASD 2 with language impairment/disorder; conversationally verbal with lots of echolalia/scripting... except when he's not and just cries/grunts/moans; encephalopathy; global delays but average IQ; basement-low verbal memory and general memory funkyness; dx deferred, but still strongly suspected SLDs in reading, writing, and math. He left public school 11 months ago, and I've been homeschooling him continuously ever since. We did not take a summer break. (He left public school originally due to covid school closure, but I am a seasoned homeschooler in my 9th year with one or more of my three other kids.)

[Elements of Mathematics: Foundations reviews? (x-posted)]

My DS 9 loves EMF. He calls it "magical meep math," lol. In all seriousness, though, it's good math, just as solid as AoPS, but with a different emphasis. The two are so incredibly different that a kid could probably do all/most of EMF and then restart near the beginning of AoPS and vice versa.

The "pre-algebra" courses cover much more than pre-algebra and in a way that is dramatically different from AoPS. My DS 9 did the first 5 EMF courses off and on in between AoPS Geometry and Intermediate Algebra assignments and it was new and interesting enough to keep him going back for more. He spent FOREVER on EMF 06 and managed to fail the final test -- seriously, 50%, and that was after maintaining a mid-90s score until the final. Still don't know what went on there except he maybe just lost interest because... fractions? No idea. Anyway, he's doing EMF 07 now while he waits for his AoPS Precalculus class to get started and seems likely to continue intermittently with EMF courses for fun.

EMF uses a really MATHY math approach. That's the best explanation I can give. I have an engineering background, and when I look at AoPS problems from the main track books I know what I'm seeing and can figure out the answers without too much trouble (admittedly, Intro to C&P threw me for a loop, never having experienced combination notation before that). When I look at the stuff DS 9 is doing in EMF, I just feel confused. I don't know what all the symbols stand for and sometimes there are these arrow diagrams and other things that are *completely* foreign to me. I think I'd have to go back to the beginning to read through and learn all the symbols and lingo. They use language for math that I've never seen before. Like last week DS 9 was doing some exercises converting between decimals and fractions or the other way around, which is relatively rare in EMF, usually things are not that straightforward, but they were calling the fractions "standard names" and the decimals were "positional names" and there was no way to know what was expected in the exercise without that vocabulary.

 

On 2/15/2021 at 5:27 PM, eternallytired said:

He's 12.  By age, he'd be a sixth grader.  He started BA3 in first grade after having flown through RS B&C in kindy and requesting "hard" math.  He was doing pretty well at getting through a year of BA in a calendar year (we probably lost six months over the course of BA3-5), but PreA took 18 mos, and he's ten mos into Intro to Alg and still finishing chapter 10.  Since the AoPS classes go so quickly, it makes me feel like we're falling waaay behind.  I'm trying to remind myself that I'm more concerned about mastering the material than speeding ahead, but I'm not always successful at convincing myself that I'm not failing him by not pushing him to move at a more normal clip.  (Can you tell that I overthink pretty much every area of my life?)

My DS 11 is on a pretty similar trajectory. Started with RS in kinder, moved on to BA 3 in 1st... and is now just halfway through pre-algebra with AoPS in 6th. It's really felt like he's been treading water in math for the last couple of years. He, unfortunately, did not think EMF was fun or cool when we tried it last year. I might have to try the first course with him again soon since it's still free...

[Math beyond Beast Academy for my 2E girl]

We've had similar issues with my 2e DS 11. He has dyslexia, dysgraphia, ADHD, SPD, lower processing speed and working memory, etc. and finished BA 5 around this time last year. We've spend the last year bouncing around between various curricula. Long story, but we're still searching for the best fit. I don't really have advice, but I can share what we've tried so far.

He ended up doing Right Start level G immediately after BA 5 because he flipped through AoPS Prealgebra and just wasn't interested at the time. RS G and H together are pre-algebra, so that was my original plan. RS G turned out to include quite a bit of review after BA 5 (and public school 6th grade math before that), but it had enough new geometry concepts and an approach (drawing with tools) such that he found the lessons novel and interesting. It only lasted him a few months, though. I bought RS level H next, but he had a change of heart about AoPS Prealgebra and decided he just had to switch to AoPS instead of moving on to RS H. This was probably a competitive-sibling-motivated thing since he has two brothers, one older and one younger, using AoPS. I've thought all along that AoPS is probably not going to be his happy place, but he is ultimately the one calling the shots. I just offer options and my opinion. 

So, he started AoPS Prealgebra just using the book, online videos, and Alcumus. He wanted to be in an actual class like his brothers, so after a few weeks I switched him over to the self-paced AoPS Online Prealgebra 1 class, fearing that the live class might move too quickly for him. He liked the teaching bot and benefited from feedback on his proofs from someone other than me. He only took about 9 weeks to get through the class, though, so I figured he could handle the live version for Prealgebra 2, which covers roughly the same amount of material in 16 weeks, and signed him up for that next.

Between Prealgebra 1 and Prealgebra 2 we took a 3 week detour to do all of Jousting Armadillos, which was more review but was exceptionally well received. The whole Arbor Algebra set is free on Google Books right now and I really wanted to give it a try. 

He's now about a quarter of the way through Prealgebra 2 and doing just fine, but he doesn't love it. I think that after he finishes AoPS Prealgebra 2 we may go through one or both of the Arbor Algebra books since Jousting Armadillos went over so well (I say "we" because he needs his math textbooks read aloud to him). I might have him follow up with AoPS Intro to Algebra, or maybe not. On the other hand, perhaps his preference for JA indicates that he'd do well with a clean switch to Jacobs for algebra. I'll probably try to get a copy from the library to test out with him before attempting to solidify plans any further.

[Being ghosted by our neuropsych: Update we have made contact!]

I'd give it 6-8ish weeks minimum before getting any bit concerned about not having a report. Hopefully you got some kind of verbal explanation of the results already so you won't go crazy from curiosity before then?? 

My DS#4 had his repeat autism eval on December 18, six weeks ago. We had a quick phone follow up two weeks later, so I know he is being diagnosed with ASD, but we still don't have the report. The psych happens to see another of my kids for behavioral therapy, so I know she's well and all. She's probably just busy and working her way through a pile of reports and other obligations.

Turn around is generally way quicker when you're working with someone who only takes private payments and doesn't accept insurance. 

[Generally, what do you do with "behind" kids?]

4 hours ago, Coco_Clark said:

My next in possible need of meds has an anxiety disorder, which includes panic attacks. Eventually he will end up on medication, I'm sure. Right now we are using therapy, supplements, and calming practices for as long as we can because anxiety meds are some of the worst for growing children, and you need 6 months to a year for them to build up before you can expect them to work.  At least that's what our behavioral medocation doctor tells me. 

Just want to throw out there that the most commonly prescribed anxiety medications for children have a pretty solid safety profile and are often prescribed for kids ages 6 and up. They even come in liquid form for easy swallowing. They only take 4-6 weeks to build up in the system and hit full effectiveness, but we've seen improvement in as little as 2-3 weeks. They don't typically affect growth.

Anxiety is a beast, and panic attacks are, well, terrifying. Crippling. Awful. We delayed medicating for a child's anxiety and depression for a couple of years because we imagined negative side effects for his growing brain, etc. We had to have a second major crisis, including a second hospitalization, before we gave in and started an SSRI. The change in him was practically magical. It dramatically changed his life (and the rest of the family's) for the better, and I wish we hadn't waited so long. Our family works with pediatric psychiatrists at a major children's hospital for medication management because it makes me feel more comfortable that they know what they're doing and have seen complex kids like mine before.

[Math for an accelerated learner who’s hitting a wall]

17 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I didn't do remainders with DD8 at all for this reason. I've decided I don't believe in remainders, lol.

See, and I have a kid who is all about those remainders. He's not interested in dividing out those last little bits. He'd be like Jackie's kid, arguing the absurdity of dividing extra cookies into 7ths. He'd say they just need to do rock-paper-scissors for the last few cookies or divvy them out to the hungriest/ hardest working/ most deserving member(s) of the party (which would be him, btw, if we were talking real life, lol).

[Math for an accelerated learner who’s hitting a wall]

20 hours ago, Jackie said:

I assume she’ll learn it eventually, but thought I’d reassure you that it turns out to be a lot less necessary than one might think.

Or... perhaps she'll just keep trucking along, unencumbered by the unlearned long division algorithm, get all the way through engineering college without ever needing it, and then years later she'll be homeschooling her oldest kid and have to look up the long division algorithm to teach said kid 4th grade math... 😅

 

[Experience with Adderall?]

21 hours ago, PeterPan said:

And yeah, that kind of aggression (from over methyls) is my ds' norm even without meds. People who work with him keep begging me to get him on meds and the docs won't do it. We have an appointment with a bigger fish doctor, so we'll see what happens. Maybe they'll have something up their sleeves. For my ds, sure I worry about him having side effects and not being able to tell us and us just thinking the behaviors are normal to him. But again, that's ASD2 with language/communication issues. 

Good luck with the new doctor! We only see pediatric psychiatrists at a a mental health institute associated with a major children's hospital, and it's been soooooo worth it. My DS#1 was never even offered stimulants because of his history. 

You might want to keep a journal of your DS's behaviors, nightly sleep, general mood, frequency and duration of meltdowns, etc. for a week or two before beginning meds and then for at least a couple of months afterward. I assume they'll offer non-stimulants to you guys, and those can take 6ish weeks to build up in the system, so symptoms really can sneak up on you. Keeping journals has been super helpful here with med trials. I definitely feel like I'm taken more seriously when I bring up concerns about side effects. Doctors respond so well to data, lol. But it's also helpful just for teasing out what is really new vs. what is just normal bad days, you know?

 

2 hours ago, Quarter Note said:

Thanks, Cake and Pi!  We just got through Day 1, and nothing bad happened, but I didn't see any improvement in attention, but we'll give it a few more weeks.

Agreeing with PeterPan. You should see results from stimulants pretty much immediately. They are in and out of the system same-day and don't build up over time (assuming no metabolic issues). Did the doctor say you were starting with a lower dose with a plan to increase if tolerated? My DS 7 also just started a stimulant for his ADHD, and he was started on a very low dose with instructions to increase in 3 days and to follow up with psych in 1-2 weeks so we can report on if it's working or not and make further adjustments as needed.

[Experience with Adderall?]

I really wouldn't worry about looking for side effects. You will *know* if your kid doesn't handle a stimulant well, and you'll know that very day, lol. If you see mild/moderate effects, they might advise you to try to push through, though, because sometimes the mild/moderate side effects will lessen or disappear after a week or two. Always report any concerning medication responses to kiddo's doctor.

We all have stories, but remember that each kid has their own unique neurochemistry and will respond uniquely. One of mine did freaking fantastic on a low dose, except that he eventually habituated and didn't tolerate a dose increase. He had tremors and screamed for 5 hours nearly continuously, then slept for 13-14 hours like he'd just run a marathon. Another of my kids transformed into a raging bull on stimulants, drastic decrease in eating and sleeping, threw a computer at his teacher at school, etc.

 

[Using Beast Academy as a supplement - only the practice books 2A-D]

My math-lover did BA alongside RS around that age. The two curriculums complement each other very nicely. Each has some topics and approaches only found in one and not the other, and I was infinitely glad that we covered multiplication with RS before hitting the topic in BA, where they did a fairly lackluster job on foundational stuff but expanded on the basics masterfully. We did pretty much match the levels straight across. He did BA 3 alongside RS D and BA 4 with RS E.

Also, yeah, no, *don't* skip the guides. They are too fun to skip! I always read them aloud with special voices for the characters. 

Anyway, I wanted to comment on placement. If your kiddo is in RS D, BA 2 may be less than exciting for her. My DS#3 did BA 3A after completing RS A through C (in 1st edition, so kind of like RS A through the first 1/3ish of D in 2nd edition -- probably pretty similar to where your DD is at right now), and BA 3A was pretty easy for him at that point. Took him a bit less than a month to complete 3A. BA 2 was still in production at that time. He did ALL of BA 2A in about a week. BA 2B was released a few months later, and I bought it not wanting to skip anything. Shortly after I gave it to him, he handed it back to me announcing that it was "tooooooooooo easy." Each kid is an individual, though, and you know yours best. I'd at least offer her the placement tests first before investing in a whole level if you want to keep math costs down. We spend entirely too much on math in my house!

Just for extra math funness, my DS also did the Algebra Lab Gear Beginning Algebra book with the blocks around the same-ish time he was starting BA 3. Algebra Lab Gear seems to be basically unknown in the homeschooling world, but we really, really liked that problems with two variables and three dimensions could be reasoned out with blocks.

[Online Homeschool Planners in 2020]

3 hours ago, Matt Layman said:

I totally get that. Excel is super powerful and flexible. Do you use Excel for tracking grades and report cards too?

I'd love to understand what was hard about the online planners that you tried if you don't mind sharing. For the tool I'm building, I want to avoid the obstacles that would make the service hard to use. Knowing any big land mines would be extremely awesome to understand.

I do not do grades below high school level course work because I require my kids to work to mastery. They don't move forward until they've achieved what anyone would probably consider an A, I suppose. Our state does not require homeschool grade reports. I only need to track hours. For high school level classes I've been keeping transcripts in Excel, but all the high school level classes have been outsourced to online providers thus far, so I've only needed to record semester and/or final grades as reported by the providers. That will be changing soon, and I'll probably track assignments and grades in Excel at that point as well.

As for the online planners, I think they required too high a level of detail for my purposes. I need a *lot* of flexibility in day-to-day planning. I can set broad goals for a week easily, but my kids are all outliers who don't follow standard sequences very readily. We may blow through two weeks worth of lessons in a single day, or we may spend three weeks on a lesson that was only supposed to take a day. 

I like that I can see the big picture in Excel. I can see when our breaks were and are planned. I get the broad sweep of the kid's trajectory in each subject. I can project ahead easily and make a rough outline of what future studies will look like. 

[Online Homeschool Planners in 2020]

For long term planning and record keeping, I just use Excel. I have one sheet per kid with a row for each week and columns for subjects. I grey the weeks as we complete them and have my own color coding system and stuff. I also have other sheets with supply and curriculum inventory, homeschool budget, attendance, book lists, and ideas for future resources. I tried a couple of online planners and they were just SO hard to get the hang of. I got frustrated. They weren't intuitive enough for me and I didn't feel like spending the time figuring out the system when I already knew and understood Excel.

My kids each have spiral bound paper planners just like the ones issued by our neighborhood public school. I was actually buying them directly from the school for something like $2.50 a piece until this year, when I had to hunt them down online and pay full price.

Elementary: https://www.amazon.com/Elementary-Student-Academic-School-Mate/dp/B085HB6H59/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Dated+Elementary+Student+Planner+for+2020-21+Academic+Year%2C+School+Mate+Brand%2C+8.5"x11"+Weekly+Matrix+Format&qid=1609465762&sr=8-1

Secondary: https://www.amazon.com/School-Student-Planner-Academic-Mate/dp/B085GMT2QH/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3HDNFFEYSRJ73&dchild=1&keywords=school+mate+middle+school+planner&qid=1609465881&sprefix=School+Mate+%2Caps%2C214&sr=8-2

[Tests (competitive and standardized)]

Too many is however many stresses you or your kid out.

We do standardized testing every year. None of my kids are interested in competitions.

-- MAP testing 2-3x per year for all the kids. 
-- PSAT each fall for the last two years, which I plan to continue. This is just for DS#1 and DS#3 because they're beyond algebra 1. I'll add in DS#2 when he gets to that point as well.
 

[Choosing an online class that uses Hewitt's Conceptual Physics]

10 hours ago, calbear said:

We've done both Athena's and in the middle of Jetta's Clover Creek one...what are you looking for out of the class and for which kid?

 

I'd love to read your take on Athena's vs. Jetta's classes.

Your question has a complicated answer.

1) I'm trying to find a "next thing" for DS#3 for after the Davidson Explore Contemporary Science class he's taking this year and the GT 7th grade public school science class he took last year. He wants labs, so many labs. I want lab reports so he can at least maintain the technical writing skills he's developed over the last couple of years. We both want peer interactions because connecting over science/math is much easier for him than connecting over more traditionally social topics.

But also:

2) It would simplify things *greatly* if I could lump DS#2 in with DS#3 instead of running separate sciences for them; however, he requires significantly lower output expectations. DS#2 turns out to be just as PG as DS#3, but with dyslexia, dysgraphia, ADHD, and more. He can handle (interesting) high input, but is resistant to output (because it's hard for him). He'll also just be getting to algebra I at the same time as covering this material, so a *mostly* conceptual approach is preferred, but incorporating algebra would be a good application and perhaps give him a *reason* to learn some math since kid has trouble finding the motivation to learn things he doesn't see a point behind.

So... I might be looking at different classes for the two boys but that use the same textbook and cover roughly the same topics. Maybe whichever class is most rigorous (and includes peer interactions, if at all possible) for DS#3 and then I can align DS#2 in the self-paced stuff through Conceptual Academy? On the other hand, if the Athena's class gets deep enough, that might work for both of them since Athena's is so flexible. DS#2 could choose a lighter path through the assignments than DS#3, who would probably do *all* the required, highly suggested, and optional assignments and the calculations class.

[Choosing an online class that uses Hewitt's Conceptual Physics]

There are so many to choose from! Can anyone compare and contrast physics from these providers? They all seem to use Hewitt's Conceptual Physics text.

Athena's
WTMA
Clover Creek
Conceptual Academy

If we did Athena's we'd include the physics calculations add on class. If we went with WTMA we'd also do the lab. It looks like the Clover Creek class includes labs? And doing it through the homeschool version of Conceptual Academy looks... complete, just self-paced?

[Your Therapy Source--worth checking out]

Okay, admittedly off topic, but what's that introspection curriculum I've seen you mention a few times?

[Article about ABA therapy (for autism)]

7 hours ago, Mrs. Tharp said:

It's maybe more accurate to say that behavior modification has been around for a long time, and that ABA is a particularly distilled form of it targeted at disabled people. I disagree with the notion that the people are none the wiser. IME, people know. I have three individuals with EF issues in my house, and while they often don't comment, they always realize what I'm doing when I prime, reinforce, reward, or punish.

Yep, ABA therapy is behavior modification turned into a science through the act of analysis.

I think that how aware a person is about their behavior being manipulated by others depends on the individual and the context. If a man takes out the trash and his wife thanks him for it, gives him a big ol' kiss, and he feels great about it afterward, he's probably going to be more likely to take the trash out the next time it's full. Does he realize that his wife's expressed appreciation is modifying his behavior? Does he feel manipulated? Should he? 

I would argue that all behavior in all mammals and humans, autistic or neurotypical, boils down to perceived reinforcements and punishments, whether they be internal or external. It's all just chemicals in the body and brain (dopamine, serotonin, endorphins, adrenaline, cortisol, etc.). ABA often contrives reinforcements (not usually punishments) for behaviors, but this is necessary for some individuals. Where most neurotypical people will organically learn expected behaviors "in the wild" through trial and error, autistic people may experience those same trials and errors without internalizing and/or generalizing the expected behaviors. In my mind this is very similar to targeted reading intervention for a child with dyslexia. A typical reader will learn to read no matter what program you use with them. There will be some trial and error, practice is necessary, but they'll get it "on time" without too much struggle. A dyslexic kid is not going to easily pick up reading the same way the typical reader will. They'll need extra time, extra practice, specific instructional techniques. And both the autistic child and the dyslexic child will very likely need continued accommodations and/or support after the intervention concludes. They're wired differently. It's part of who they are and isn't going away even if they work hard to do things typical people learn easily.

7 hours ago, Mrs. Tharp said:

You're citing things like frequent buyer programs and speeding fines. Perhaps the difference is in the degree of autonomy involved for the person whose behavior is being modified. Are you choosing to participate? If you say no, will that decision be respected? When behavior modification techniques are abused, either the goals are inappropriate and/or boundaries are being violated. The vulnerability of the disabled make them particularly prone to this kind of abuse.

I don't know. It seems to me that the degree of autonomy is similar in the context of behavior modification. The circumstances are just different because the general differences in expectations across age groups, and some things we have more ability to decline participation in than others. If my husband opts out of paying his speeding ticket, he'll be imprisoned, right? Involuntarily confined, choice about compliance overridden. I could choose not to be lured into Starbucks on double star day, but I *like* Starbucks and *want* double stars, so I often comply. Similarly, when one of my autistic kids is throwing chairs across the dining room and threatening to strangle his (also disabled) younger brother (because said younger brother won't stop verbally stimming), his choice about compliance is overridden. My other autistic kid could decide not to complete his school work, but he *likes* playing video games and *wants* me to log him into his computer once their done, so he often complies. 

Disabled people are vulnerable to abuse in all settings. ABA can be abusive. School can be abusive. Church can be abusive. Boy Scouts can be abusive. That's why parents must be ever vigilant, ever involved, and perpetually ready to step in and advocate for their children. We are the gate keepers responsible for ensuring that our children are safe and treated with dignity and respect to the greatest extent possible in all settings until they take over that job for themselves, if that's within their abilities.

7 hours ago, Mrs. Tharp said:

Here's another by Kohn about ABA and Autism: https://www.alfiekohn.org/blogs/autism/

 

Our ABA experience has looked nothing like that. Wendyroo's description is very similar to what we've had in our home. 

Our use of ABA isn't about making the NT people around my autistic kids feel more comfortable. What a waste of time and money. We have only ever targeted maladaptive behaviors, which limit and negatively impact the child himself; adaptive behaviors, to increase autonomy; and dangerous behaviors, from which the individual or other members of the household must be protected. There has never been any kind of attempt to make my neurodivergent children act neurotypical for the sake of seeming "normal." We don't discourage benign stimming or force eye contact. Really, this article is just feels so far off base it's absurd.

[Article about ABA therapy (for autism)]

I also have complex feelings on ABA. I'm wary of unconditionally recommending it as a therapy because I think it can be done poorly and/or for the wrong reasons, but I wouldn't ever blanket condemn it either. I think that part of the problem is that ABA is a fair bit more complex and far-reaching than the vast majority of people realize. It really can be a tool used for good or evil IMO. 

I'm in some autism-led groups where they are vehemently against all forms of ABA. If a new parent comes in asking questions and mentions that they use, used, or even thought about using ABA, that parent gets chewed up, partially digested, and disdainfully regurgitated by the group.

The thing is though, these same outspoken folks go on to recommend strategies that are actually used in ABA. They just don't know that ABA involves such techniques because they've securely shut and locked the ABA door. They don't realize that ABA techniques are literally everywhere in society. ABA just turned it into a science.

But seriously...

I went to Starbucks on Thursday because it was double-star day, yeah! I collected double the stars for my purchase, which I will accumulate until I have enough to redeem for a free drink. Positive primary reinforcement for a behavior Starbucks would like to increase (me making purchases at their stores) and token economy = ABA.

My husband got a hefty speeding ticket last week. Positive punishment by the government intended to decrease an undesirable behavior (speeding) = ABA

If there is chocolate in the house, I simply cannot resist eating it. I can seriously subsist on nothing but one of those 4-pound jars of Peanut M&Ms for 3-4 days until I run out. I want to be healthier, though, and have decided to drastically decrease my chocolate consumption. So, to set myself up for success, I've told my DH not to buy any chocolate when he goes shopping. Environmental antecedent strategy = ABA

A friend of mine likes to gamble. Even though they are netting negative, they win just often enough that they enjoy it and keep going back. Variable ratio schedule of positive reinforcement used to increase or maintain gambling behavior = ABA

DH worries about missing work for the kids' medical/therapeutic appointments, but sometimes I simply can't manage alone and have to ask him for help. To lessen his stress over it, I put the appointment in his Google Calendar and then I remind him that I'll need his help a week beforehand, 3-4 days beforehand, and again the evening before the appointment. Priming = ABA

I got tired of seeing ads in YouTube. They're seriously irritating. Now I pay a monthly fee so I can have YouTube ad-free, and I love it! Negative reinforcement used to increase the likelihood that I will maintain a behavior YouTube desires (me paying them!) = ABA

A good friend got tired of me never answering my phone when she (or anyone else, really) called. I explained that I don't usually have pockets and sometimes my phone is in a different room when she calls, so she bought me one of those necklace-type wearable bluetooth headsets so I could easily answer calls without searching out my phone. Decrease response effort strategy intended to increase a desired behavior (me answering when my friend calls) = ABA

And I could go on and on. Once you spend some time learning about what all ABA entails, you see it EVERYWHERE, especially in marketing and business. It's not just for autism. It's used on neurotypicals and adults everyday without the vast majority being any the wiser. Anything that changes or maintains a behavior ultimately boils down to ABA.

[Five Senses Literature Lessons - Reviews/experiences?]

On 10/19/2020 at 1:49 PM, happycc said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Have you heard of Pinwheels of Rooted in Language? I have been looking at that too. 

 

Five Senses Literature Lessons and Rooted in Language really don't have much overlap at all. 5SLL F&F has minimal phonics instruction. It introduces the 26 basic letter sounds and writing the capital letters. That's it for reading/writing instruction. 5SLL is more of a thematic approach to enjoying children's literature and incorporating related activities. For example, you might read Rainbow Stew and Light Makes a Rainbow, sing Rain Rain Go Away, learn the shape semi-circle (and cut pizza, tortillas, cookies, pancakes, etc in half), paint a rainbow on half a paper plate, cook rainbow stew, talk about healthful eating, and practice the letter R.

But, yes, Pinwheels looks really good! I marked it off our possibilities list (for now anyway) for a few reasons very specific to my particular kid: he's not yet ready for blending, he *cannot* do 3-line handwriting, and his phonological awareness is so low that all phonics-based approaches thus far have failed (and this includes four hours per week with an O-G specialist over the last two years). So, while I'm still working on teaching him the letter sounds, I've decided to try out a more sight-word approach for the time being while we work on phonological awareness with Kilpatrick. At his current rate, DS 7 might have the 26 basic sounds of the alphabet learned in about nine more months, so I don't really feel like we have much to loose with a little experimentation. 

So for my DS 7, I'm using 5SLL Wonderful World, loosely, as I said, and essentially spread out over two years, for literature, social studies, science, fun activities, and a sprinkling of life skills, and I've settled on Happy Cheetah for reading, writing, and spelling. Happy Cheetah is brand spanking new, but I think the approach might work well with my particular kid for where he's at right now and with his particular array of very unusual memory and processing differences that really probably only apply to our particular situation. Plus, I need something streamlined and open-and-go atm or it won't get done at all. We'll still be working on phonological awareness and doing tons of private therapies as well. The other largely-sight-word-based program I considered was So Happy to Learn, which I might try out next year if Happy Cheetah doesn't do it and he's still not responding to phonics. 

[Five Senses Literature Lessons - Reviews/experiences?]

11 hours ago, happycc said:

Following 

We went ahead and did Foundations and Fundamentals this past May through just last week when kiddo finally finished it. It was good! I'm happy with the purchase; we had a ton of fun. We followed the curriculum pretty loosely, mostly just using the lessons as ideas for themed weeks. My DS 7 struggles with receptive language (at the level of a 3-4yo), so I ended up substituting several of the books for some others with the same general topics but with fewer words and/or more simple language. We also probably only did about half of what was scheduled for each lesson, and we often spent more than one week per lesson. Some of the activities were just over my kiddo's head.

DS 7 still doesn't know the entire alphabet, and only actually picked up two new letters over the six-ish months we worked in F&F, but it's honestly not a fault of the program. He just needs way, way, way more repetition and practice than is built into *anything,* and he learned at least as much as I was expecting him to. The F&F workbook pages were awesome.

We've moved onto Wonderful World, which we're using similarly to F&F and finding to be much the same in terms of needed adjustments and having more activities available each week than my kiddo could possibly do or understand. I'm expecting to run through F&F again next summer followed by Wonderful World again next school year, so hopefully over the two years we'll cover all or most of the curriculum.

[How do you read to the children? (when there are 3)]

For chapter books, I read at meal times (I either don't eat or eat before serving them) and again at bedtime with everyone in their separate beds and me on a stool in the hallway between their rooms. We used to do a ton of audiobooks in the car, but we don't do much driving around together anymore in this age of covid; however, I do often throw on an audiobook while everyone plays/works in the backyard.

My youngest gets his picture books read to him 1-on-1 by everyone. Each older sibling, DH, and I all take turns reading to him. It works out so that any one person only reads aloud every other to every third day or so, and the little guy gets 2-3 read-aloud sessions per day.

[Share your happy things!]

DS 12 (ASD, etc.) graduated from ABA therapy and is being really independent with his online classes.

DS 11 (dyslexia, dysgraphia, etc.) is writing a multi-chapter story via voice-to-text in collaboration with long-distance friends. They've been "meeting" together to collaborate via Google Hangouts. The story has over 2,000 words!

DS 8 (ASD, etc.) is in a few live online classes that meet on Zoom this year. Two separate teachers have reached out to me to tell me recently that he's participating actively and appropriately in the live meeting portions of the class, which is seriously such a relief after a pretty bumpy start to the semester, tons of practice with online class social stories, behavior-cuing picture cards, regularly reviewing classroom expectations, and me sitting a few feet away from him for all of the live meetups.

DS 7 (global delays, neurodevelopmental disorder, etc.) now knows 23 basic letter sounds -- sooooo close to the whole alphabet. He's averaging about one new letter every three months. He's also slowly inching his way closer to potty training. It's slow, but there is progress being made.

[AAR, LOE and spelling]

On 10/6/2020 at 11:22 PM, Hunter said:

All the Spalding stuff was designed for OLDER students with SPECIAL NEEDS. I do NOT believe in using it as the DEFAULT for YOUNG children, either with or without special needs.

The level of world analysis in Spalding type programs is college level linguistics. Of course it is interesting to moms; it is a firehose to young children.

I prefer the phonics instruction methods used in the 1700s and 1800s. They still work.

Not to derail the thread, but what *do* you generally recommend for younger students with special needs? Like, say, a 7yo with the receptive language of a 3yo and average visual-spatial skills but basement-level auditory memory?

[How to get to algebra?]

2 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

I would agree about running Jacob's and CLE simultaneously if he had a stronger background, but this child has only finished 4th grade math.  4th grade math to alg is a huge leap. It's one thing to be excited about ideas and another to have a strong enough background to be able to successful in its pursuit. Introducing basic alg concepts that match ability level will do a lot more to encourage than trying to use a high school text with a huge gap in required background.

So you're saying that ALG, DragonBox, HOE, and/or some other similar supplement would be a better way to play with algebra alongside the standard curriculum? That would probably be my first pick as well, but I'd likely use whatever the child is most enthusiastic about if they have strong opinions. Some kids have really surprising definitions of "fun" math, lol.

What would you think about including Jacobs if they move at the child's pace and only work on what he's grasping easily and while the enthusiasm holds? I mean, as long as they follow his lead, the worst case scenario seems like it would be to wind up shelving Jacobs until more basic math is mastered. I haven't really looked through the Jacobs algebra textbook, though.

I spent a year teaching algebra to remedial students, some of whom were working at about a 4th grade level in math, at a public high school. That makes me think it's completely possible to move ahead with basic algebra concepts but at a drastically reduced pace while running an arithmetic thread on the side. In high school this is extremely unideal, but in 3rd grade it's no biggie if a kid takes three or four years to master the equivalent of algebra I while they continue shoring up the basics.