EliseMcKenna
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Posts posted by EliseMcKenna
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On 3/27/2019 at 7:07 PM, JennyD said:
However, it is true that a lot of the materials marketed to the classical homeschooling market are not suitable for a Jewish homeschooling family. Like everything else, I think you have to take what works and disregard the rest.
Happy to answer any other questions.
@JennyD Can you please expand on the above? As a family beginning the conversion process, this is what I am struggling with the most. Feel free to message me privately, too. Thank you!
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Oh! I almost forgot that we just finished the entire Henry Huggins collection. We all laughed out loud, which I really was not expecting. My daughters are 11, 9, and 7. We got the series from Audible, and all but one of the books is read by Neil Patrick Harris. His version of Ramona’s voice still has us in stitches as we try to imitate it.
Matilda, read by Kate Winslet, is another one I would say should not be missed on audio.
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The Incorrigible Children of Ashton Place series! The audio is SO GOOD, we not only reference elements of the stories all the time, but we’re planning to listen to the entire series again. RIP the hugely talented Katherine Kellgren. What a loss.
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Thank you, again. Everything you said makes perfect sense. Starting in the fall, we have the opportunity for the oldest to attend a forest school program one day a week with middle-school kids, separate from her sisters. I'm hoping that the day the younger two are at their forest school experience, dd11 and I can get some of that quality one-on-one time that you mentioned. 💛
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1 hour ago, teachermom2834 said:
Yes. My 10 yo dd is finishing up the 5th grade MP Core and she has been in the MP program since K so it is all she has ever known. We both really like the whole curriculum and do it without substitution. So it is what dd is used to.
We really like it and I am amazed how much she has learned. But, a couple of things to note : we use the whole MP Core and the subjects really fit together and emphasize common themes so not sure how any one piece works on its own, and also I am very hands on with my dd. She is the baby of my family and my boys are grown so she gets my full attention. I don’t hand any of it to her to just go do. I think that makes a big difference and would be hard if I had more students to juggle.
Juggling everything, and everyone, has always been one of my main concerns with a program like MP. *sigh* What did you use with your older kids, and how do you think it compares with MP?
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Thanks for sharing your experience @teachermom2834. I hope my daughter likes them as well as yours. Do you order an entire MP core then?
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Thank you both for confirming what I was thinking! I was surprised when she specifically mentioned the guides . . . they're certainly not my cup of tea. *Maybe* we'll try just one instead of the whole set. They look eye-wateringly boring to me, but she seems to think she wants to do more than just read.
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She saw the literature study guides in the MP catalog and claims she’d like to try some. Are the ones from MP your favorites? Or are there others that are more engaging for this age?
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Higher starting salary is great and engineering is worth it if you love it but if you want money, all you have to do is focus on money and be persistent. It doesn't require 6 or more years of education. Persistence and connections will also do.
I totally agree. But an accompanying sense of prestige might prompt some people to want a professional degree along with high pay. I know a couple who totally fit that description. My impression is that their titles are every bit as important to them as their salaries.
I wonder about the importance of prestige to the author of this book. He does say that a trade school would have been acceptable, if any of the children had selected that route, because that would have led to a paying profession. So was it the familiar route that led all the children to the same outcomes? General expectations within the family? Or was it more sinister than that? Would the kids feel like outcasts as the only mechanic in a family of advanced degrees?
By the way, we live in Lake Stevens. Hi!
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Take it from me folks, living free in your 20s and traveling the world can't be beat. Run up the steps of the Louvre past all the people who are finally getting to travel at 60? Never have to think through whether there's going to be a major medical facility when you take off to travel on a last-minute, no-kids, no-responsibilities vacation?
Not to mention, having a beer with a professor and talking about physics late into the night. Not to be underestimated.
And yet . . . as someone who did the things you described, except I didn't make it to the Louvre until my 30's, I do sometimes feel behind now. I had my first child at age 38. My husband and I often talk about how we can "catch up" for retirement. We live comfortably, but we're also in an expensive part of the country, and our retirement funds need to reflect that. My husband supports us, but he didn't graduate with an undergrad business degree until he turned 30.
There are drawbacks to both ways of doing things. I'm not going to push my daughters to marry and start a family, but I will also be able to advise them of the pitfalls of waiting longer than average . . . I've been very, very lucky with my fertility. My sister hasn't been. Maybe early college/careers in high-paying fields DO make sense for women who think they may want a family someday?
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You all have made great points. Lots to think about. Although, just for the record, I wasn't considering this path for my children. Heck, we don't even start formal schooling until age 7, so we're waaaaay behind the early-college curve already. I will say that what this book made me consider, however, is that my expectations might be too low for my kids. I think I err too far on the side of "keeping the peace," when really, they are plenty bright enough to take on more challenging work.
Anyway, I also found it very interesting that this is the father's bio on his Amazon page: :huh:
"After working in electronics for about twenty years, Lawrence quit his job and attended Arizona State University (ASU) law school to become an attorney. He now works as a solo practitioner in intellectual property law and specializes in patent prosecution and infringement opinions."
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Obviously this isn't the experience of every person who goes to college young, and it's not the same as taking a few classes at the community college, but I think it's worth remembering that there is no hurry and there are important ways that adolescents are developing that are not academic.
Absolutely!
WTF?
We'd be in a lot of trouble as a civilization if everyone majored in math and science. We NEED people knowledgable about things like governance and war!!!
I kind of hate these parents.
Heeee, heeeee! :laugh:
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I have not read the book, but a) there are people with history degrees who can support themselves financially (for one, there are jobs that basically just ask that the applicant has a college degree, any college degree), and b) if you want to become a history professor, wouldn't a history degree be the most logical choice before applying to grad school for a history PhD? Wouldn't other degrees be more likely to hinder their ability to move forward in post-graduate work?
Basically, I think this is silliness. I wouldn't recommend a history degree to people who simply want w/e degree pays the most and don't have any particular interests, and it'd probably be best to combine it with at least some sort of minor that's more marketable, but still, it's not like all people who have history BS's are unemployed or making minimum wage.
I'm not defending the authors' stance, but here is what they say on this topic:
"We had a back-and-forth conversation with each child about her or his undergraduate major and possible graduate studies. We steered the children toward degrees that suited their strengths and interests and that also would likely lead to successful employment. As we worked with them, we specifically identified and steered them away from fields where, in our experience, it was more difficult to find employment. For example, Ben initially wanted to study math and become a mathematics professor. We told him that an undergraduate degree in mathematics was likely not a wise idea because, if for some reason he could not continue on to graduate school, his career options might be limited. In Lydia's case, she had an interest in history and, in particular, the study of governance and war. Despite her affinity for historical studies, we were prepared to forbid her from majoring in history because we had personally known several people with history degrees who were not able to find employment that paid well. Fortunately, the issue never arose because she was more interested in math and science."
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My oldest is almost 16. She has 2 college classes done, and is currently enrolled in 3. I expect she will graduate high school with an Associates or be very, very close. If she wants to, she can then do only 2 years at a 4 year school. I wouldn't really mind if she chooses to go half-time or add a second major or a minor causing her to take a little longer.
I didn't put her in community college because I want her to graduate early; if anything, she's one who might need a little more time to launch. I enrolled her in cc because the classes are not that much more difficult than high school classes (she did take a high school level class there last semester - remedial Chemistry) because she doesn't do well in online classes, there are very few secular class options in my area, and she's outgrowing/fighting me as her teacher. So, cc was the easiest way to outsource. If she gets some college credit out of the deal, I consider it a bonus.
I haven't read the book as it's not in our library system - bummer.
I have a history degree and a STEM degree, so I don't have anything against either types.
If you have Kindle unlimited, you can read it for free.
I think it totally makes sense to do the cc enrollment in HS. We have that option here, and I'd like my kids to take advantage of it.
Haven't read the book.
Out of curiosity, what majors were considered acceptable? What universities were used? And were they local or did the kids go away to school at 14?
I think it would be an unusual situation where this would work well--IMO, needing a right local university to fit the particular kids, and perhaps the larger family which would give some internal social structure separate from the university.
The majors had to be ones that could provide income as a stand-alone degree. But I got the impression that meant an above-average income in a field with plentiful opportunities.
Every child went to community college in Mesa, then on to ASU. My understanding is that they were still at home through that time. They gave the example of how nerve-wracking it was to send their 17-year old across the country to study at Johns Hopkins.
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I think the last time we talked about this, it was from this today show segment: https://www.today.com/news/meet-family-who-sent-six-kids-college-age-12-1C9316706
ETA: Well, that's odd, this book is a different book about a family of 6 sending their all their kids to college early.
I just watched the Today show segment. So fascinating! But they seem to give their kids a lot more choice than the family in "Unapologetic Homeschoolers." (Although maybe both families would disagree with that statement.)
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I think the last time we talked about this, it was from this today show segment: https://www.today.com/news/meet-family-who-sent-six-kids-college-age-12-1C9316706
An illuminating quote jumped out at me:
"Seth was motivated by his brother Keith's success. Keith is just down the hall, studying finite mathematics, a college senior -- at 14"
Finite math is basically high school level math, I think it counts as remedial math for stem-type majors, so having a "college senior" taking it at 14 seems not terribly advanced. At this university, the prereq for finite math is high-school level algebra.
Maybe someone from AZ can chime in. The kids ALL started at community college in Mesa, AZ, then continued at ASU.
The oldest went on to medical school, next oldest completed a master's degree in bioengineering at Johns Hopkins University at age 19, and now is in his fifth year of a PhD program at MIT. Third and fourth children, medical school. Fifth is in a PhD program in electrical engineering at MIT. Sixth is studying chemical engineering and plans to study medicine.
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I provided my kids a liberal arts education - in high school. The last couple of years are at a college level. In fact, some of what we have done has exceeded what has been offered in college classes. This actually is the same model that I had in brick and mortar private school back in the day. I don't see their goals as necessarily being all that high. But again - what works for them is great. I just don't see it as being some great template for all to follow. For one thing, in our area, we could not have afforded it. The colleges in our area required me to enroll (ie. pay the same per class fee) with any child under age 16 and attend along side him. I checked at the time. It was better for us to have those high goals - at home. I dislike the tone in the quote that seems to suggest that anyone who doesn't follow their pattern doesn't have high goals for their kids or doesn't have a good educational environment.
The tone is like that through the entire book, IMO. Even in the children's writing. Slightly off-putting, I agree.
I generally agree with regentrude on this topic.
I was not homeschooled and was horribly out of sync with my age peers much of the time, and gravitated towards social relationships with older kids and adults. Even so, getting to attend college with other really smart kids *my own age* was the first time I ever found real peers and friendships. Even though my daughter is very gifted and years ahead academically, my intention is not to graduate her early (a year or two if it’s what she wants would be a consideration for me) because I want her to have that same opportunity for true peers.
I have known of a number of families that use low level community college classes starting at a young age, often starting with high school level remedial classes that they call “college classes†because they’re offered at a college campus, then transfer to a local four year university. They may have a college degree at 18-19, but it’s not a rigorous education. Moreover, it’s not an interesting education. They march in a lockstep through required courses without any flavor of an individualized education, which is so unfortunate when homeschoolers have so much opportunity to individualize.
Good points!
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I hope someone here has read the book. I know that feeling of NEEDING to talk about a book after finishing. Unfortunately it's not at my library and I'm pretty picky about the books I buy.
However, I will add that I actually know a family who did this, and a lot of their motivation was related to finances and to religious beliefs. They also had six children, and they knew they wanted their kids to live at home while going to college. I cannot really speak more to this, because their views are totally opposite my own (I actually think college is totally wasted on the young, in my most grumpy moments). I do think setting young people's focus on grad school, not college, is much more the norm these days than it was when I was growing up-- when just a 4 year degree was a good enough achievement for most of us-- and maybe finishing college requirements earlier is part of that trend of no longer really seeing a 4 year degree as a crowning achievement.
Ha! Yes, it's a burning desire! I could only read so much of it aloud to my husband last night to get his opinion.
And like I said, some of it does make sense, and I can totally understand where they're coming from. I think I've just spent so long focused on things like reading the classics and learning Latin that their math-heavy, job-driven approach is completely foreign to me. But intriguing.
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Two comments:
1. I do not think this works for most children, because most 14 year olds are not ready for university level work. (Of course you can find some kind of college that has a level low enough to match any non-LD 14 y/o, but I don't see the point of that). So, are we talking about the best way to educate highly gifted children, or are the authors claiming they can do this with any kid? If they claim "any" kid, then the bar for that college education hangs fairly low.
2. I do not see the value of graduating with an undergraduate degree at age 19, as opposed to doing college level work for their high school studies and then entering college at age 17 or 18 with a stronger transcript that allows access to selective colleges or other opportunities.
I am strongly in favor of educating children according to their abilities and giving kids who are capable of college level work the opportunity to do so, but I fail to see why that would mean early HS graduation and college at 14. Homeschooling is immensely flexible; why not do a college level high school education? I do not see education as a race and I fail to see an advantage of graduating at age 19.
My DD took her first college class at age 13. By the time she graduated highschool at 17, she had 32 credits from a 4 year university. This enabled her to be admitted to a top university for her undergraduate, where she will graduate this June with two degrees. (But she is still not sure whether she wants to attend grad school.) Why would I have wanted her to graduate at age 18 from the local university?
Here is a quote from the book: "One comment we hear a lot when people learn about our children's educational attainments is that they must be geniuses. We feel our children are accomplished not because they are geniuses but because their environment prepared them to learn and to do well and because we provided the opportunities for them to maximize their potential . . . We have seen so many families that have had uneven results with their children. Our children's consistency in attaining high goals confirms our belief that their educational environment made all the difference."
As for your #2, I personally don't have an answer. My oldest is 10, so that's partly why I'm wondering how this all actually works for the rest of us.
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I need to discuss the ideas in the book "Unapologetic Homeschoolers: University Graduates by Nineteen." In a nutshell, the authors have sent six children to universities, and the children have then opted for graduate work in fields like emergency medicine, math, and engineering. All of their undergraduate degrees started at age 14, and those were required to meet two criteria: 1. The child must be able to support himself with only that undergraduate degree (hence, a degree in history would have been forbidden, according to the authors), and 2. The chosen undergraduate degree must not hinder their ability to move forward in post-graduate work.
There is truly SO MUCH to unpack in this book. I just started it yesterday, and I am still trying to wrap my head around it all. It's like the antithesis of what I've been doing, not to mention what is the standard advice in many homeschooling circles now (relax, have fun, let the children study their own interests, etc.).
The thing is, I was ready to dismiss it all as ludicrous until I read the accounts written by the children themselves at the end of the book. They all rave about the advantages these methods provided them. But . . . are they secretly all in counseling trying to understand their parents' motivations???
I'd love to discuss.
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We've used Math 1and 2, and DD is currently doing Math 3 this year. We also use LA and Reading.
I love their math. I tried switching to a couple other options for math when DD was in 1st grade, and both times we came back to CLE. Math is the "spinach" on my DD's school plate, so while she doesn't prefer it, she can do it and do it well. I don't think there will be any gaps in your child's math education if you stick with CLE.
We also really like their Reading and LA programs. The Reading is quite Christian-focused in content, so if you prefer secular materials you might not care for the religious emphasis of the Reading program.
Yes, looking further at the Reading, I would say you're right.
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We really, really like The Reading Lesson. It's so much more straightforward than OPGTR, IMO. Every time I looked at that book (tried with a copy from the library several times), it made my eyes cross. TRL is just simple and effective.
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Thanks, insertcreativenamehere. :laugh:
My middle daughter will be doing AAR 1 soon. Should I hold off on any CLE LA for her? Or go ahead and start Grade 2?
Also, I don't necessarily see any writing in the LA. Is that correct? Judging by your siggie, I am guessing the W&R Fable might be a good supplement for my 9-year old?
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I have heard so much praise for CLE math that I finally went and looked at it. (I have been avoiding it because we prefer secular resources.) However, now I've spent all morning on their site, and so much of it is appealing to me! Maybe because I'm ancient? ;-) The LA makes total straight-forward sense to me, which is possibly just because it is quite similar to the way "we used to do things."
Anyway, in addition to the math, what other products of theirs do you use, love, and recommend? Thank you!
Can we do another audiobook roundup? I’ll start
in K-8 Curriculum Board
Posted
I got an email from Audible about a two for one sale. I’m looking at Hatchet and Walk Two Moons (narrated by Hope Davis, who I love). I think they may both be too much for my crew right now, but 12-13 would be perfect.