Classical Katharine
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Posts posted by Classical Katharine
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8Fill makes a good point. Not everyone needs to start in grade 2 or 3. If one of your concerns is to spend less total time on the subject yourself, as a Mom of a large family, you may want to start a bit later.
Often a publisher has different books available depending on what age you want to start. Usually there is some repetition if you look at the series as a whole. That's so that older beginners can enter with an age-appropriate series and begin from the beginning, but then go at a faster pace. You could look at all this and think you have to do it all. No, pick a starting age and a suitable program that begins at the beginning for that age group. (Or one that works for the ages of a couple of your children at the same time. Often children a year or two apart can be taught from the same level.)
Grade 5 or 6 can be a great time to start, and what you didn't do earlier, you'll do anyway!
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If you do go with a chart, you may want to consider whether macrons are important to you before you choose one. I think they are helpful myself, for pronunciation.
Here is a chart summarizing the grammar of Wheelock's by one of the Wheelock's editors. It covers forms and syntax:
Here is one that puts everything into nice colored tables, but may cover just forms, rather than syntax as well--less intimidating but less complete:
And here's the C. C. Trivium Table an earlier poster mentioned--it does use long signs, as do the two previous:
http://www.classicalconversationsbooks.com/trtala.html
I do think though that reading a few chapters of a G-T program would be very clarifying for you as you think about an approach.
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Something else that could help is to get your hands on a single-volume grammar-translation program for college, like Wheelock's--any edition--not to use necessarily, but to flip through. Take a look at the table of contents and see how many of the topics you already recognize. Take a look at the declension and conjugation tables in the back of the text and see how many you recognize. That may give you some sense of how far you have to go.
For that matter, you could read the first few chapters to see how a grammar-translation program works: grammar described and presented explicitly first in each chapter, then drills and readings that feature the constructions that have just been introduced. This will probably help you see whether you would feel more comfortable with a G-T approach, though of course you'd choose an age-appropriate text for your children. You have probably encountered lots of endings and lots of constructions, but maybe without ever having seen what larger whole they are part of: where endings fit into a declension table, or "hey, we learned two uses for the ablative but there are six more," or so on.
Getting most of the way through Wheelock's in grade 9, long, long ago, meant ready to start Caesar. Not everyone needs to go that far.
I mention Wheelock's just b/c you can find a used copy on Amazon or at a used bookstore or maybe see it at a library.
BTW Laura is the best person to comment on her children's experience, but I'll just mention that Latin Prep is G-T. So she had her (very accomplished) children do some G-T before they began an inductive program.
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Maybe what you are looking for is a chart that shows all the conjugations and declensions? Or at least, would that be a starting point for you? Cambridge is more an inductive program and you might not ever have been shown all the conjugations and declensions. That can be disorienting as you may lack a sense of "how much further is there to go." A parts-to-whole or grammar-translation program is more likely to map things out for you.
But then again, "how much further is there to go" depends on what you want to get out of Latin. Could you share what your goals are?
On "counting the cost," is that financial, or time costs that you are wondering about?
I hope I'm not rattling off questions here--I'm doing this while also chatting with Vonage :-(
Okay, a P.S. now. Please don't let this stress you. You've come to a great place to clarify your goals. There's more than one set of legitimate goals for Latin study and only you can know what your family's goals are. Is it to go all the way and read the classics? Or is it to go part way, learn Latin roots, learn English derivatives, learn how an inflected language works, and then leverage that in the study of a modern inflected language? Or . . . other?
Once you know your goals, you can think about what approach will best serve your goals, and how much time to spend on it. Your main choices will be a grammar-translation program; or an inductive program; or maybe a G-T program followed by an inductive program (I have seen that sequence work well.) But it's hard to think that through till you know your goals.
(Well, I've also seen people do inductive programs, get confused, and move to a G-T program. Starting inductive is definitely hard for Moms with no Latin background. You do have a Latin background and it's in a more inductive program, so maybe it would work for you. Except that, from the sounds of it, maybe you didn't feel completely comfortable with the Cambridge approach . . . since it left you feeling a bit at sea.)
Hope that helps--come back and tell us some more!
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I've been helping a young man at our church who is a lawyer, but needs help with his writing. (His writing is actually too formal and complex--at times a bit convoluted.)
Well, writing and re-writing and paring down till it's simple are right up my alley, and I can see what needs to change in his writing. I've marked up some of his drafts. If he were my child we would spend a fair bit of time on this together. But he's an adult, already married with children, translating sermons into sign language, and volunteering in other areas, and too busy to give this much time, though he wants to improve and is grateful for the help.
It occurred to me that if this exists, I'd love to find this tool for him: something that would, by computer, check his sentence lengths and flag any sentence over a certain number of words. Better yet, it would also flag any sentence with more than a certain number of punctuation marks. He could then address his efforts to those sections.
Is there anything like that--a sort of complexity flagger? I think it would help him detect his "complexity nests."
Thanks!
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Musicmom,
My friend's situation is a bit different from yours. On further thought, for yours, have you tried doing all the steps you describe, but from a different browser? It is odd what things can sometimes be affected by that difference. If you are using FF, maybe try IE or perhaps Chrome? After a system restart? And come back and let us know if that helps :-)
Geodob, she couldn't use her email address since she had abandoned an email address in favor of a new one, so couldn't receive email to the old one, but in the end, by using her username instead, she was able to get in to reactivate. So she is up and running again, and is a happy camper. Thanks for the idea!
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Hello MusicMom,
I have a friend in a similar boat. She is a forum member and cannot access her account. It must be a huge amount of work to keep this forum up and running for us all, so I understand if not all questions get answered right away. I hope someone might post a hint or tip, however. She has tried every past email address and password to no avail, and has not heard back from support as of yet. I second the call--if anyone out there has a hint, please let us know!
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Blaine Ray has a graded readers series, many available at Amazon. The vocabulary and grammar topics are restricted so you can focus on comprehension, but they've managed to produce complete short novellas with a coherent story-line. (I'm not sure I would use them all, so caveat emptor. I liked "Mi Propio Auto," a Level II reader which has a boy reluctantly going to a poor country, where . . . well, he learns things!)
Here's the list of Level I readers, and you can navigate to the rest: http://www.blaineraytprs.com/shop-online/spanish/level-1-spanish/level-1-novels
Another useful discovery: this woman is a fluent French teacher in Quebec teaching herself Spanish for free; she has great resource lists:
http://www.tobefluent.com/free-online-spanish-resources/
I've been teaching myself Spanish and some of what I've used could be useful for an older student, especially one who appreciates the Bible. Certain Bible translation combinations have worked well as I've learned, and tie in nicely with free online audio. https://chapter51.wordpress.com/resources/
(A non-commercial site.)
Happy exploring!
Edited to add: I just received a link to this bilingual audio for children: https://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/sara-jordan/?source=HEF-2015-06-24&utm_source=Offer+Emails&utm_campaign=HEF-2015-06-24&utm_medium=email
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Good idea from Wapiti that would work quite well with short sentences and if Mom is confident that she can explain the translation steps. With more complex sentences I've found that younger students will need some extra support in the form of steps and procedures.
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Wapiti, thanks for the reminder about GSWL. I think you're right--it would work for one year for middle school. It would be easy enough to add some derivative work if that were a family goal. It doesn't have English-to-Latin work, I don't think, but someone enterprising could add that. I believe someone here has added that to GSWL on her own.
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For cobbling together free resources, this woman's site may be helpful. She's a fluent French speaker and teacher from Quebec who is teaching herself Spanish for free. The italki site she mentions sounds useful. Also, the free Foreign Service Institute materials might be worth looking at. I found her when starting in on teaching myself. We have different goals but she is a good source of information.
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Since they are in middle school I tend to agree that just one year of Latin won't achieve enough gains to necessarily be the best use of the year for your friends. If they did a vocabulary-intensive program they could achieve the same or more with a roots program. If they did a grammar-intensive program they would still only be just starting in on case uses towards the latter part of the year.
But to answer the question for people other than your friends, if a family had only one year for Latin but the children were in eighth grade, that could definitely be valuable. One year but in seventh grade, probably. (Years ago I learned a lot in Jenney's in grade 7! I kept going but it wouldn't have been a loss even just having that one year. I found out how an inflected language worked and found out I liked it.)
For those in middle school, two years is definitely long enough for significant benefit. As always though, it helps to know your goals for the study and to match your program to your goals. Some approaches work better for a brief study than others.
I do believe that in general if you are not going to go "all the way" in Latin, then it's best to use a program that is grammar-intensive rather than vocabulary-intensive, if your goal is to support later study of other inflected languages. The grammar will carry over to a significant degree, while vocabulary won't.
If you mainly want Latin for the English vocabulary help, then find a program with derivative work, or consider doing a roots program. If you know your goal is a Romance language and you are sure you don't care about other inflected languages, you have a lot of flexibility in what type of Latin program you pursue. But you'll never know if your child is an inflected-language-lover who might want to study Greek or Russian, if you don't give him or her a taste! And Latin is a great way to do that.
So yes, one year can be worth it if the child is old enough, you know what you want to get out of it, and you pick a program that matches your goals.
Edited to add: See below in response to Wapiti.
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8Fill, are you using a resource for that or pulling it together on your own?
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8Fill, your daughter has taken most of my languages! Fun to meet a junior twin. Now if she'll just do a little Greek, we'll be identicals.
I'd say Latin helped my Russian and my Greek a lot; as for my French, Latin didn't so much help it, as make me dance around delightedly at what turned out to be linguistics. Or some such. As in, Oh! "fenetre" in French (that second "e" needs a circumflex) must mean "window" because "fenestra" in Latin does, and so that French circumflex reflects a lost "s" . . .
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Amy from WT is the author of Writing Tales.
The Great Latin Adventure is my Latin program.
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I agree with Lawyer and Mom that SeaConquest's children don't need Latin! SeaConquest, you have a great, enriched language-learning environment going there! Though obviously I'm partial to Latin--from both sides of the teaching desk--not everyone needs it. I meant my answer to be more generally applicable to someone with a similar question about another inflected language instead of Latin. For a lot of people who aren't sure they want to go all the way in Latin, but who are interested in Russian or Greek or Arabic or another inflected language, starting with Latin grammar and translation (not just vocabulary) can be very helpful.
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I think some kids might love learning a new alphabet. I know that I was fascinated by all the writing systems when I was younger.
That is true. I made up a whole alphabet when I was eleven and enjoyed writing messages in it. For others it might be intimidating and might slow down the grammar work. Every child is different!
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One reason to study Latin is that it's a great preparation for studying any inflected language.
So as some have asked, why not go straight to, say, Russian? For an older beginner with very strong language skills, that might work. But you'll be dealing with a new alphabet, plus an inflected language.
For me, studying Latin first (late middle school and early high school) turned out to be great preparation for Russian (my college major). Latin is an inflected language in our alphabet, Russian is an inflected language in another alphabet, so Latin first makes for an easier ramp. Latin has more cognates in English by far.
For most homeschooling families, Latin is an easier place to find out if a child has the kind of aptitude Russian requires. You can find that out with a manageable Latin program that teaches you and your child at the same time. To explore Russian, you'll probably have to find a tutor, at a much higher investment. So if you are interested in Russian, you actually can pursue that by dipping your toes into Latin to see how it goes. Of course, nothing beats the beauty of spoken Russian and that could be motivating where the sound of Latin might be a bit less so.
If you want to do some Latin followed by some Russian, you'll get the most out of the sequence if you do a grammar-intensive Latin program, and not a vocabulary-intensive program, so that you can leverage that grammar knowledge. Much of the grammar of Latin is the same in Russian, while little vocabulary carries over. In particular, to leverage Latin for Russian use, you would want to study the Latin case system. Russian's case system is very similar, while its verb system is quite different (lots of interior stem changes, interesting compounding imperfective/perfective verb formations . . . ) and less is gained towards Russian study by a prior mastery of Latin verbs.
It was interesting to see more similarity between Russian and Latin present tense verb conjugations than I had expected to see when I started Russian--the Indo-European roots of both languages do show!
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I've been studying Spanish on my own using an approach that came together somewhat on the fly (it's working for my purposes) and have a question for those further along in Spanish. With a background in French and Latin I'm finding nouns and verbs pretty manageable, but the prepositions and the abstract conjunctions often give me no peg at all to hang them on. The "howevers" and "neverthelesses" and "in spite ofs" of Spanish are their own animal entirely, often multi-word, and I find there's not much intuitive or cognate about them . . .
I know there's a Practice Makes Perfect book on prepositions, but has anyone seen a resource on "this kind of word" that would take in those conjunctions, and maybe other non-Latinate "little expressions"? Thanks!
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Spanish--it was a consolation prize recently while ill and not able to get out much. I started with an eight dollar book from Amazon plus a couple of dictionaries, and it took off from there.
Purpose: along with "maintain brain cells," which is always in order, my main purpose for now is "read my Bible in Spanish," and it has been a joy to be able to do that sooner than I thought I could. Things strike me during the (necessarily) slower reading that don't always strike me in the same way when I am reading in English. And some verses are "better" in Spanish, because of the greater word order liberty, or some other happy difference.
In the end I was blessed to find a combination of resources that have worked very well together--a free online audio Bible, a Spanish and English Bible translation that work very well together, a dictionary with a grammar survey, etc.
I hadn't meant to blog when I started on this journey, but in the end I put it all down on "paper" at a blog in case it might help anyone else. It's been fun to be on both sides of the teaching desk on this one!
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A book called The Art of Construction is a wonderful child-level introduction to structures, forces, building design, and includes paper models to make to illustrate different principles. It's a good read and you could end up with a paper apartment building in your living room.
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Righto, it made the Captcha go away for posting . . .
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Thanks for that link, Jenn. The message in that post from the new site master is indeed the same as in the email I received, so the email is legit. I'll go ahead and do what it says now and I bet this will make the Captcha hurdle go away.
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. . . despite being logged in.
Did anyone else receive the email I did? I just don't normally click links in an email and give out account information. But could be legitimate this time.
Latin - What's the Big Picture?
in General Education Discussion Board
Posted
Jennifer, I'm glad that it's starting to seem more doable now that you've read everyone's two cents. Hurrah!
The chart you mention is highly rated at Amazon but one reviewer mentioned that the verb forms lack long signs. (That's why I didn't link to it up above.) If you're sure you don't care about macrons, it might work for you.
(Usually programs that teach classical pronunciation will give you macrons. They are a great help to pronunciation for beginners, and give confidence to the teacher, too. Books that use ecclesiastical pronunciation may or may not supply them.)
Among grammar-translation programs for middle schoolers, Latin Prep and Great Latin Adventure use macrons throughout, and teach classical pronunciation (just like Wheelock's). Latin Alive probably includes macrons. I am not sure about First Form.
If you do want macrons, you'll want to be sure that they are everywhere in the book, and don't appear only on the vocabulary lists. You can't always predict their location in different forms of the same word, so if you want and need them, you want and need them throughout the book.