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JenniferB

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    Another Duggar thread

    in The Chat Board

    Posted

     

    'Not so much like drops of water, though water, it is true, can wear holes in the hardest granite; rather, drops of liquid sealing-wax, drops that adhere, incrust, incorporate themselves with what they fall on, till finally the rock is all one scarlet blob.

     

    'Till at last the child's mind is these suggestions, and the sum of the suggestions is the child's mind. And not the child's mind only. The adult's mind too—all his life long. The mind that judges and desires and decides—made up of these suggestions. But all these suggestions are our suggestions!' The Director almost shouted in his triumph."

    That quote is crazy good! Thank you for sharing your connections.

    • Like 3

    Another Duggar thread

    in The Chat Board

    Posted

    For me, it's not a stretch simply because the focus isn't on being a good sister, daughter, helper. The focus is on the child's identity as a servant and future help meet (according to the Duggars' expectations). To create this identity for a child, and then reward or punish her (either with tangible or social/affection) on the basis of meeting these very limited goals is cruel, I think. It reminds me a bit of the indoctrination in Brave New World. The focus is on her budding identity in the eyes of an invisible judge constantly critiquing everything the child does, or will do, and we've seen how this plays out in later years. It also seems impersonal and contrived, as if it was penned with a public audience and specific message in mind.

    Can you explain more how it reminds you of Brave New World? I just read this book and I can't see the correlation. But I would like to experience your connections.

     

    The note sounds like mantras I used to hear in my old church, "what a good helper you are," "are you mommy's little helper?" "How many children will you have when you grow up?" Barf.

    • Like 4

    Let's talk about the Bible, how did it come to be and other fascinating facts or feelings related to Scripture

    in The Chat Board

    Posted

    Thank you SO much for sharing this resource! I've listened to the first podcast and cannot wait to hear more.

    I noticed,though, that her last podcast dates from 2014. Do you know if she's continuing to do them?

     

    Thank you!!

     

    Speedmom4, She does plan to continue them, God willing.  She had to pause due to additional family responsibilities.

    • Like 2

    Favorite Bible Characters

    in The Chat Board

    Posted

    At the moment I'm really into Job and appreciating what he is going through and saying on a human level. He is someone to relate to in moments where bad thing after bad thing has happened. Some statements from when he curses the day he was born:

     

    "Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived."

     

    "Why died I not from the womb? Why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?"

     

    "Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light."

     

     

    But my favourite quote is near the start when his wife asks him to curse God. He has already fallen down and worshipped God after all the bad stuff went down, but then he answers his wife here:

     

    'Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.

    But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.'

     

    I love Job's perspective and hope to maintain the same attitude if it comes to a moment of great suffering. This is very important to me. I want to praise God always, in everything.

    So beautiful. Thank you for sharing.

    • Like 2

    Favorite Bible Characters

    in The Chat Board

    Posted

    .  

    I don't think Biblical characters are there to emulate or teach us what is good, necessarily. I think they teach us that God works with imperfections!

     

    I like Ruth and Esther. Both must've been scared out of their minds, but did what was necessary and brought good to their people.

     

    I don't know about that.  Well of course there are imperfections in many of the Bible characters, I don't disagree with that, but, in the case of Jacob and Esau, Jacob is the favored one.  I don't think it was because God wanted to work with his imperfections.  It seems like he had some quality that was good.  This gave me pause to think about why.  I pondered this a long time, for years off and on.

    Favorite Bible Characters

    in The Chat Board

    Posted

    The children and I are going through Ancients this year, my favorite time period, so mysterious, and I'm reading aloud from a Children's Bible to revisit the old stories.  In my own time, I'm listening to Search the Scriptures on Ancient Faith and digging deeper into the stories.  I have fallen in love with an unlikely character, Jacob.  I've always been fascinated by this story of a man who tricked his father in order to obtain his blessing, and the wrestling with God in the dessert, and working 14 years to marry Rachel.  Why is this character an example in the Bible?  Why is this behavior presumably good?  Why did God prefer Jacob over Esau? I've been puzzling over this for years every time I have read, re-read or re-encountered this story.  It's just in the last year or two that I have really grown to like Jacob, and now I really love him.  What I really like about him is his determination to receive a blessing.  He seems to know what is good and he will stop at nothing to obtain it, not like in a materialistic way, but of course I see this as a spiritual parallel.  The blessing from his father, his inheritance, the blessing from the Angel of the Lord in the desert, Rachel:  if you see these as types and shadows of the Kingdom of God then the story is so beautiful and Jacob is a hero of faith.  I feel like his story teaches us what Jesus told us, about the violent taking the Kingdom by force.

     

    Who's your favorite Bible Character?  Why?  Do you have a love for any unlikely Bible characters?   

    • Like 4

    Transhumanism

    in The Chat Board

    Posted

    I would argue that it is a philosophy, not a religion. However, I could see someone making a religion of it. I've never heard of it before today.

    I'm always wary of moments led by science fiction. However, it may inspire creativity and may, in fact, lead to something that benefits society. (I have no idea what.)

    The thing I find most disturbing is that they want to end mortality. While I would love to have some of my family members still around I think the implications of this could be dire. For some reason, my mind wonders to Brave New World type of stuff.

     

    I just read Brave New World for the first time.  Reading about Transhuman ideals reminded me of that society.

    • Like 1

    Transhumanism

    in The Chat Board

    Posted

    If you know me, you know I really enjoy discussing religion, especially church history, but I also enjoy discussing philosophies, ideologies, social structures, and the like.  Today I learned about a new philosophy, or some are calling it an emerging religion, Transhumanism.  Why have I just heard about this?  Apparently this is not a new movement.  Is it a philosophy or a religion?  Are the ideologies of this movement good for humanity?  Do you see elements of this movement creeping into your religion or your social circles?  I want to know your thoughts.  (I'm horrified.)

     

    Here are a few articles on the subject:

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism

     

    http://www.singularitysymposium.com/transhumanism.html

     

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/zoltan-istvan/a-new-generation-of-trans_b_4921319.html

     

    And you can find much more with Google.

    Let's talk about the Bible, how did it come to be and other fascinating facts or feelings related to Scripture

    in The Chat Board

    Posted

    Another thing I learned and found interesting is about the putting together of the Hebrew Scriptures. It was a very long process. She talks about different stages of development. The first stage being when the events occurred, those of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the beginning of the Bible. The first date they can come up with is the dating of Abraham in 1800 or so BC and Moses in around 1250 BC. The next stage is the stage where the stories were written down which didn't occur until as late as 1000 BC. The third stage began when the Babylonians destroyed the Jewish Temple in the 500's BC, 580-540 ish, and they no longer had a place of worship. So, they turned to their writings and began to think of them as Holy Scripture. Of interest, she also mentions that the Jews were the first to have a Holy Scripture. This was a new concept.

    • Like 2

    Let's talk about the Bible, how did it come to be and other fascinating facts or feelings related to Scripture

    in The Chat Board

    Posted

    I've been listening to the Search the Scripture podcasts in whatever free time I can squeeze out, and I found it interesting the way she explains the difference between "inspired" and "inerrant."  Orthodox Christians believe that the Scriptures are "inspired" but not "inerrant."  When we say inspired what we mean is that the authors of the Bible, or the origins of the story wherever they came from include the element of human cooperation with God in a synergistic relationship.  Care to discuss the difference, and the different ways people approach the Bible?  So, we are all on the same page as far as word definitions, here is a quick definition of each word:

     

    in·spired
    inˈspī(ə)rd/
    adjective
     
    1. of extraordinary quality, as if arising from some external creative impulse.

     

    in·er·rant
    inˈerənt/
    adjective
     
    1. incapable of being wrong.

     

    • Like 5

    God will continue to chastise Christians who venerate icons...Douglas Wilson WOW!

    in The Chat Board

    Posted

    I may be in the minority among my fellow Orthodox Christians but to me the veneration of icons comes down to the fact that it feels good to do it and I find it enhances my experience of practicing my faith. I don't think it serves anyone to argue about whether it's "right" or not, especially when trying to apply reasonable arguments or justifications to it. It's not a reasonable thing to do, but I do it because it feels good. I disagree with Douglas Wilson (whoever he is), but he has about as much biblical and historical evidence to support his claim as I do. We read the same stuff, looked at the same history and came down on different sides of an argument that's been going on for a really long time.

     

    I also believe that there's evidence in the old testament that God wanted his people to make images and use them in worship, and I believe that people in general enjoy using symbols and visual representations of their believes and the things they value. However I think that as Christians we have to put our money where our mouth is so to speak and admit that we can't have it both ways. Either our deeds are as filthy rags before God or they're not. Arguing about whether something is just in the eyes of God is useless unless we have God right here to give us His opinion. I believe that I know the truth, and I will defend my right to worship God and include the use of icons in that worship; but I truly don't *know* what God thinks of that practice in the way that humans (or at least our culture) talks about knowing. Uncertainty (or mystery if that's more comfortable) is a huge part of Orthodoxy (and most likely some other Christian) belief. It doesn't stand up to logical discourse, but why would it hurt me to admit that? So to answer the question how do we know DW is wrong - I don't think we do know it, I think we believe it.

     

    Albeto and Sadie are right in that we as Christians have enjoyed a cultural free pass for a very very long time. We don't anymore, and while that's an uncomfortable place to be, I think it's fine to say that this along with other Christian practices don't hold much of a place in they type of discourse Albeto is trying to achieve. Being asked again and again to be quiet or "agree to disagree" when her beliefs are (I'm assuming) held as strongly and honed with as much research and care as mine is not something I would handle as gracefully as she does. And she's right. For me at least, this comes down to a feeling and "I believe it because I believe it even despite the evidence or historical record." I don't think it's dismissing or hurtful to say "this is eventually going to come down to faith because you are making a faith based argument" - it's just true.

     

    On a bit of a side note, I also agree that the use of icons and other objects can become idolatry or unhealthy in EO practice just like it can in any other context. It irks one priest at the cathedral in San Francisco to no end that people come into the church and immediately head towards the relics of St. John the Wonderworker to make bows and pray without even acknowledging the altar or the icon of Christ. None of us practices what we preach very well.

    Thanks to everyone who has gotten my brain going with this thread.

    Lots of good points ^^.

     

    As far as the "we know" he's wrong comments that I made, I was never presuming to know God's mind, but that "we know" Christian doctrine and teaching based on the councils and practices over time. I would never presume to know God's mind. Is that the same thing? I don't think so because we have doctrine, which includes a human element which can always include some obscurity to perfect light and knowing and we have God's mind, which is unknowable.

    Let's talk about the Bible, how did it come to be and other fascinating facts or feelings related to Scripture

    in The Chat Board

    Posted

    "Lost his faith"and "without a faith tradition" could easily be very judgment heavy terms.

     

     

    I was curious about his story because he's mentioned in the podcasts I linked earlier. From what I understand he had put years of trust in the inerrancy of Scripture, and after studying the manuscripts including their discrepancies and one thing led to another until he ceased to be Christian.

     

    Here's an audio interview where he tells his own story.

     

    http://cfvod.kaltura.com/pd/p/618072/sp/61807200/serveFlavor/entryId/1_ky0c2bee/v/1/flavorId/1_3pw4xtpo/name/a.mp3

    • Like 2

    Let's talk about the Bible, how did it come to be and other fascinating facts or feelings related to Scripture

    in The Chat Board

    Posted

    I've always thought this too. Can you recommend any books that discuss this?

     

    I'm going through a series of podcasts right now which gives an extensive introduction to the Bible: what is the Bible, where did we get it, why should we study it...then she picks up in Genesis and goes verse by verse. It's a university course she teaches, modified slightly for Orthodox Christians, which means more detail on the Orthodox side. God willing she will go all the way to Revelation. She's up to Ezekiel now. She's a professor and a Phd in church history (I think) but very accessible, not dry, conversational.

     

    http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/searchthescriptures

    • Like 4
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