Barbara H
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Posts posted by Barbara H
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I'm sure everyone has a different definition of what "playing the game" or "hoop jumping" is excessive. I've met parents who feel any standardized testing is excessive and any test prep is a form of cheating.
There is some icky stuff written about college that makes it seem like it is all a game. Don't read that stuff. Instead try to help your kid live a meaningful four years and do the little bit of following the rules it takes to get into college.
What I think is reasonable expect of most kids who want to go to selective or who want to earn scholarships:
1. Do high school. Four years of meaningful college prep high school work in core subjects. They don't have to hit it out of the park for every subject and if they are organized about their time it should take less time than high school. Some will go further in math because they like it, some won't. All should leave high school with good competency in reading, writing, and math. Some courses might be online or at a community college. Some courses might end in some demonstration of mastery like the AP or SAT subject test - not for everything, but maybe for a few things, it depends on your goals.
2. Spend a reasonable amount of your time doing something beyond just hanging out with friends or surfing online. Sometimes just hang out - but sometimes do other stuff too. It doesn't matter so much what that pursuit is, but part of growing up is to do something. I don't care if it is soccer, internship, writing poetry, small business, building iphone aps, playing guitar at a coffee house, volunteering to make the world a better place. Do some stuff you like that gets you with other people and has you learning and growing. Don't do it because you think it looks good for college. Do it but because people who are alive don't just play video games. Start to think about goals you might want to set for yourself to learn stuff you like to learn. It doesn't have to be your life passion. You don't have to win a huge prize or save the world, but you are a person who has something to contribute to yourself and to other people so don't just waste years of being alive doing nothing.
3. A little tiny bit, you play the game. Little bit of test prep, PSAT, SAT or ACT and to completing college applications. Treat it like a job that has the potential to pay very well. Jobs that pay well you don't generally do while you are texting and on Tumblr. You sit down and do the job. Kind of like you will be doing for the rest of your life, except if you play this job right you actually figure out it is a pretty tiny investment of your time and has the potential to pay much better than any other job you'll have for many years. I've seen kids put five hours into test prep or a scholarship application and come up with thousands of dollars for that effort. That's a lot more than you make at McDonald's.
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The community colleges grad rate is very low and that is upsetting to me because it means the system is not working somehow.
Community college graduation and transfer rates are really tricky. Yes, they probably aren't that high at a a lot of schools. One of the big problems is that many students are entering community college with need for remediation in a core subject like math, writing, or reading. Advising is also often not that good.
But we really lack good data to figure out community college graduation rates. Most schools do not keep any kind of data to break down people who are full time with the intent of earning a degree and transferring and people who simply want to take a few courses. Many people who enter community college have no intent to earn an associates degree. I can easily see this just among my homeschool friends - a dad who took one IT course a semester for a couple of years in order to learn a new specialty for his job, the small business owner who has taken an accounting and a marketing class, the homeschooling mom who took art history because she wanted something fun for herself. People use community colleges for a lot of purposes and many students who intend to complete a degree are doing so against pretty tough odds (needing remediation, needing to go part time while taking care of kids and working full time, etc.)
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The cursive statement is required for some other tests too including the SAT and GRE. The GRE is mostly given on computer now, but even the students taking it on computer have to write out the statement in cursive. I'm apparently a total failure at teaching cursive because we worked on it, but little was retained. It caused no problem with the GRE or SAT though - just the printing with a few connected letters and it was just fine. My understanding is this only gets looked at as a means of identification if there is a question of cheating.
The GRE, MCAT, test security is pretty intense now - photographing, hand scanner, need to confirm their identity after breaks, no watches, no taking off your jacket or sweater in the test room, security cameras, etc. I don't think any of this is stuff to stress about but good for kids to understand that it is normal for these tests to have a lot of security now.
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Also, I have been meaning to ask about the cursive situation and testing. Years ago I made the decision not to teach cursive even though that is about all I can write in. I figured the boys would have access to so many electronic gadgets it wouldn't be necessary. Now I think I have seriously screwed up. Is it reasonable to try and teach a 15 year-old cursive in a month?
They don't need to know official cursive. Lots of kids don't really know it. The main thing is that they are just not surprised by the statement and they don't get stressed out about it feeling like they have to write some perfect handwriting version so it drags on a long time. It works just fine to print and put some cursiveish lines connecting words. Assure them it isn't a handwriting test, just a formality for test security.
Give them a paragraph of text to practice with and show them they can print with a few connecting lines and call it a day. I wouldn't spend more than 15 minutes on it max and I'd have cookies so nobody gets too stressed out about it.
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Thank you, that website was super useful! It's tough to find engineering schools that fully meet need, compared to LACs. She had quite a list of those.
I agree, engineering makes it challenging because it limits the pool of schools. At the same time it also adds on the additional bonus that some of the engineering schools suffer greatly from gender in-balance and they need to put effort into recruiting female candidates too.
There are schools who don't have the 100% number, but will fork over the bucks for a student they really want. Those % numbers are good to consider but they don't tell the whole story. I strongly encourage her to start making contacts with admissions and don't be shy about asking about scholarship opportunities.
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Quick ideas just in case that they are helpful.
1. Colleges that offer free fly in fall visits for high achieving minority students. Some require first generation status - many open to medium to high test scores. http://getmetocollege.org/hs/2013freefallvisits
2. Don't rule out any option because it seems out of reach. High achieving minority women engineering is a hot demand category. She should make contact with Embry-Riddle if she's interested for sure. They have a 78% admit rate, middle 50% SAT score is in the 500s so not at all unreasonable for admissions.
3. With a 0 EFC it may actually be less expensive for her to go to a top tier private if she can get in. Look at colleges that fully meet financial need.
4. With the 3/2 program. Look carefully at the requirements - is it a guaranteed admit or are there are reserved number of spots. What are the financial implications of an extra year.
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Sometimes what kids really need to hear from us most of all is our honest emotion. You were scared. You were scared for a reason. Big hug and a relief that they are okay. There are plenty of rules we follow for reasons like social convention or because we are told to. This is is an issue bigger than that.
On a somewhat related note, for podcast fans there was a good story on This American Life about teenagers and guns. What struck me about it is that parents can really never be sure about the way teenagers will think. We can try our best, but we should probably never be too certain. "Christine Gentry grew up in a house in Texas where there was one important rule above all others. It came from her dad: we have loaded guns in the house, and even though I’ve taught you how to shoot them, no one can ever touch them without me being there. As far as anyone in the family knew the kids grew up obeying that rule. Until this past December when Christine confesses to the one time when — as a teenager — that she broke the rule." It is act 2, I can't say I remember if the language was all G rated, it isn't always on this show. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/498/the-one-thing-youre-not-supposed-to-do?act=2
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My thought is that early in the college search process it is a positive thing any time a student finds a school they are interested in. If this is not really a great fit due to mismatch with the religious culture that will pretty naturally work itself out as he visits more schools.
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It sounds like a very exciting trip. I'd see this situation as a learning opportunity. How does he want to make this work? What is his plan to stay on track? He needs to lead the problem solving and now is a great chance to develop those skills before he's in college.
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As other posters mentioned there are some states requiring ACT products (ACT, PLAN, EXPLORE and now career testing) as well. I have mixed feelings about it. Not having an ACT or SAT during high school is another barrier for students who graduate and want to go back to school so it does help some to have had the testing done already and there are kids who get better scores than expected. So having a test in during high school can be helpful.
At the same time there is a huge profit motive to push more and more testing and accumulating more data isn't the same thing as using it in a meaningful way to improve the education of individual students. Or, as one public school counselor said to me at a training, "We already know who is failing and who the system is failing. Giving me more and more data doesn't give me any power to fix anything. We don't even look at half of the data we already have because we are so overloaded."
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The link that The Great White North posted earlier to the Project on Student Debt has the breakdown by state.
One of the really rough parts about this system is that we have such variations by state - in quality, in affordability, in admissions accessibility of state flagships, in distribution of community colleges. It is really tough to generalize from one state to another because people are not looking at the same set of choices for sure.
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That $26,000 is incredibly misleading. Oddly close to the limit for Federal Financial Aid too.
From http://projectonstudentdebt.org/files/pub/classof2011.pdf
If all they are reporting is the Federal Financial Aid (not private student loans or any parent loans), they're just reporting the tip of the iceberg. The
Just to clarify that number in case it is helpful. The figure includes debt taken out by students and required to be repaid by students. That does not include Parent PLUS loans which legally are not the student's responsibility to pay back (and that's part of why they are scary!) Families should not go into Parent PLUS loans with the idea that it is the student's obligation to pay them back or that the student can afford to on top of federal loans.
The $26,000 is the average of students who OWE money. One third of students do not take out student loans. Only one in ten borrowers owes over $40,000. I'm mentioning that not to say student loans aren't a real worry because they should be. But, I hate for anyone to think that it is an all or nothing proposition. There are different types of loans and different amounts of debt.
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Yes, students and parents should seriously think it through before taking on student loan debt. Students should understand what it will cost them per month to pay off their debt. Please look carefully at loan calculators and talk through your options. Be especially cautious about Parent Plus loans.
That said, I think it is also worth noting that the average student loan debt for students who take out loans is around $26,000 for an undergraduate degree. This is not that different than the average auto loan. Cars are an asset that lose value as soon as you drive them off the lot. On the other hand, research demonstrates again and again that people with a college degree earn much more on average than high school graduates. Education remains a good investment for students who plan to work hard and take their education seriously. That's the not the same thing as saying "sure go to NYU and go $120,000 in debt for an art degree."
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Thanks for sharing the accommodations you've been able to get in place at Chapel Hill. Great that they've been so willing to work to get her needs met!
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Cut it loose and move on with your life. Don't feel guilty about it.
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Two points to consider:
1. While there are many difference policies out there it is increasingly popular for colleges to offer the option of SAT plus SAT subject tests OR the ACT. So some students, particularly non-homeschoolers opt to take the ACT in addition to, or instead of, the SAT.
2. Many schools that want SAT subject tests are on the list of schools that do the best job in meeting financial need. So, I personally encourage really high achieving students who also have financial need, to not close doors by skipping the SAT subject tests. While we are all burned out on testing, it is possible to take more than one SAT subject test on a Saturday and it may be worth the cost of money and time to keep those options open. I worked with a senior last year who hadn't taken SAT subject tests but was considering some selective schools that wanted them. She took two SAT subject tests on the October date. She got moderate but not great scores, but very good thing that she tested because the two schools that gave her by far the best financial aid packages were schools that required SAT subject tests.
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I would go ahead and have them take the sample test at home under test conditions (quiet room, use a timer). I'd do it now to make sure National Merit is not at all a possibility. If they are way off that score, be done. Allow yourself enough time for them junior year to take the ACT or SAT twice. If they are in the ballpark for National Merit, I'd check into other schools in the area that find out who gives it on a Wednesday.
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"and coping with his emotional needs" My son's emotional needs really haven't required much coping the last few years....he's really evened out.
One thing to keep in mind is that emotional life tends to get more complicated for a lot of teens as adolescence goes on and into adulthood. There are issues like managing friendships, making new friendships outside of connections provided by family or activities parents have required you to join, coping with bosses, dealing with loss of grandparents or other loved ones, dating/romantic relationships, handling criticism from instructors, coping with rejection, dealing with uncertainty about independence, etc. Growing up isn't easy.
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I have put together a collection of homeschool college admissions requirements that has about 60 schools on it, many of them more selective schools that tend to want more documentation. Requirements can change from year to year, but for planning purposes this should give you a quick idea of the range of requirements without wasting a lot of time hunting on different websites. In addition to the other things mentioned earlier in the thread, there are a few schools that would like to see a graded English paper so you don't want to get rid of all of the student's work.
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Lastly, non-tenured does not have to mean a large turnover or short term appointment. Many non-tenured faculty spend years at the same institution and provide the same continuity to students - their appointment status just means they receive a lower salary, have no chances for promotion, and their positions can easily be eliminated.
Particularly in the case of schools with hiring freezes it certainly can be that the professors are around for years and the student experience can be similar.
But, I'm also seeing the situation where financially strapped mid tier small liberal arts colleges increasingly rely on people they hire for just a year or two. These are not long term trailing spouses who probably will still be around years the university many years down the road. These one year folks may be great instructors, right on part with the tenured track faculty in the department. But, if you are in a very small department (just three or four faculty) and they are out of there in a year that is an issue for students to pay attention. It can take away from some of the positives of the small liberal arts experience if your professors aren't accessible to you a year down the road. Of course there are financial realities that are driving this... but it can still negatively affect student experience.
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For instance, the circumstances regarding dh's and my separation is a fairly private thing. However, if he had been in traditional school, a school official, counselor or principal would have been informed of those circumstances.
Also, how real do you get about your child's personality? Do you spin what you see as deficits into positives? Do you list where you think this student might be challenged?
Obviously, as a parent I have a vested interest in getting him accepted. How far do you step outside of the parent circle to see things from the counselor perspective?
One thing to keep in mind is that the average counselor at a public school is serving over 400 students and college counseling is just a tiny fraction of what the job requires. So, in other words, most counselors aren't including information about parents separating in their counselor letter. They likely don't have this information and if they did the school may not allow that disclosure.
Much of what shapes our daily lives as homeschool parents is totally irrelevant for this letter. The fact that Susie is disorganized and loses her papers and her bedroom is a mess... yeah, it'll drive you up the wall but that isn't counselor information.
You offer explanations when something on the transcript needs to be explained. If the child has a serious medical condition that made them miss school for an extended period of time that may be relevant. If they were not properly diagnoses and treated for a learning disability until 10th grade it may be relevant.
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If simply being in social situations enabled these young people to fit in and absorb the necessary social skills, then they more than likely would not be diagnosed as having Aspergers. One of the issues is that they do not pick up on social cues and interpret them the same way as non-Aspies do.
I agree. It is absolutely fantastic that he has kids to interact with through youth group and orchestra. That is great, but it isn't a substitute for having some Asperger's specific support whether that is through therapy or social skills group. The purpose of the social skills group isn't to replace the youth group, but to help him be more successful there. Maybe an example to illustrate this would be to think of it like math. A kid who has a math disability but is in a classroom with kids who all learn at the typical pace in the typical way, is not going to have their needs met. They may be able to pick up 20% of what is being taught, but they need different approaches and more support to learn the other 80%. Sure, it is good if the kids in that traditional class are nice, but if they just keep saying "subtract here" (or "make eye contact") it isn't going to have him really learning what he needs to learn. Getting that math tutoring, or social skills support, improves the child's odds of being successful over the long term.
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Regarding the role of TAs in teaching, I would not assume all state universities or big schools use TAs the same way. At our state u, TAs play a very different role than they did twenty years ago. In the past they were very likely to be assigned full classes to teach on their own early into their time in graduate school. Now, in many subjects TAs serve primarily to facilitate once a week practice or discussion sections that allow students to receive additional support. Their calculus course may be taught by a professor in a group of a hundred students and then they meet once a week with a TA to practice problems together. So, it would not be accurate to say students are not taught by professors at all state universities.
Students should not assume that because a school is a prestigious private research university, that their undergrad courses will all be taught by professors. Many schools in this category now use some lecturers and TAs in teaching. So this really is a situation where students need to look on a case by case basis at each school. Also, at small liberal arts colleges, it is appropriate to see if the school is relying a lot on non tenure track adjuncts. They can be great instructors, but if half of your department is not tenure track faculty it is more difficult for students to establish really supportive relationships and be on track to engage in research.
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Here comes a strong opinion... if he's asking for social skills courses, I would strike while the iron is hot and prioritize it over everything else. At the end of the day academics matter less than being able to be a functional, independent person. At 16 your window of control is narrowing. At this age you can compel him to participate in therapy but at age 18 you won't be able to do and there may not be the same resources available as he gets older. Social skills classes or therapy may or may not be transforming, but this is the age to give it a shot and see where it takes him. The fact that he asked for it is a very positive sign!
Anyone's child NOT play the college admissions game...and still get into a good college?
in High School and Self-Education Board
Posted
One thing I see with some of my local public school counseling clients is they end up taking more APs than they want to. Not because they are desperate to get into an Ivy but because the way the schools are set up the only classes with serious students at the AP classes. So, they end up taking APs for most of their core academics and rack up 10 APs which makes them live under a mountain of homework... but it is that or be in a dumbed down class with kids who don't behave well.
Overall I think it is much easier to have a sane, but strong college prep life, as a homeschooler because you aren't under the burden of taking APs for everything and you can pick and balance your options between homeschool, online, community college, etc. You can also skip the busy work and focus on just mastering the material.
My final point to consider would be that more than getting into college people need to think about paying for college. Some of the same things that make your child competitive for an elite college are the ones that make your child a good merit scholarship candidate at a good, but less elite college. So, when you hear of families who are putting some time into test prep or having their kids do a handful of APs or SAT subject tests, don't assume it is because parents have some obsession with prestige. It may be that they are perfectly happy to have their kids at the state u or mid-tier private but they'd rather do it without debt.