Deniseibase
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Posts posted by Deniseibase
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I crossposted this on the high school board too, thanks for the idea!!
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Cross post from the logic stage - basically I originally asked if anyone had an opinion on these, my kid has looked at the online samples & likes them. Someone posted back that the only difference is that the geometry is in its own book. This is my reply to THAT post - any of you math experts have any opinion? TIA!! This is NOT my area of expertise!! :)
"Well, since I'm apparently NOT the only one to be wondering this, let me share what I've found. There IS more of a change than that, at least from looking at the samples.
http://saxonhomeschool.hmhco.com/HA/...th-Sampler.pdf
I went through the Algebra II sampler and compared that lesson 58 on Completing the Square with lesson 58 on Lead Coefficients, More on Completing the Square in the current Algebra II. (Apparently I have too much time on my hands lately !!!)
- 4th starts with some warmup questions, similar to the Mental Math in earlier levels of Saxon 4th but obviously with harder problems. We always liked that section, so that's a plus for us.
- 4th seems to have more of an emphasis on calling various properties & theorems & whatnot by their standard names - at least, 4th edition used names that I could find entries for on a Google search - I'm NOT a math person, so I don't really know!! An example is the Square Root Property referred to in 4th edition lesson 58. It's not mentioned by that name in 3rd, although the process is taught.
- 4th is wordier in their lessons - 4th has almost 4 pages of text before the exercises, 3rd has a page and a half. Not really a plus for us, dd isn't a wordy kinda gal. Most of that text in 4th is examples worked, starting with a really simple one, then an 'exploration' which shows a graphic model of the process, then two more slightly harder examples, and finally an 'application' or word problem.
- There seem to be more word problems - 4th has 10 word problems, 3rd has 4. This I like a lot, this is something I always felt Saxon was weak on.
- There are a number of little 'labels' that often come before a problem in 4th that give an idea what the problem is about or what it relates to - labels like 'Generalize', 'Justify', 'Physics', 'Agriculture', etc. A lot of these problems are a little different kinds of problems from the 3rd edition - some ask you to explain how to use a method, or find and correct an error in a wrong solution, things like that. It seems to be trying to connect the math to the real world a little more.
- 4th uses a graphing calculator for some problems.
So, in short, there are more differences, and it LOOKS ok to me, but I'm not a math person so I can't really judge. I've got a little extra money for curricula this year, and my daughter after looking at the samples is telling me THAT is the math she wants when we do Algebra (which will end up being 7th grade, probably, but we may start this year if she is really enthusiastic), so I went ahead and bought the 4th edition homeschool kit yesterday from Rainbow. I want to spend some time with it before I decide, probably work some of the lessons myself and see if they 'feel' comparable.
Finally, there is a glowing review of the school 4th edition on Amazon - http://www.amazon.com/Saxon-Algebra-...440321&sr=8-12 Read the comments on that review too, there's a conversation about how odd it is that this guy seems to like both Saxon and 'new math' texts.
So, I'm no expert, and I wish some experts would weigh in To ME, this looks like old Saxon with proper vocabulary, more word problems, and some more unusual approaches like the 'correct the error' problems. It still has the Saxon method of introducing a new concept, working a few problems for that lesson, and then the other problems reviewing previous info until it is solid in your head, which is a method that has worked exceedingly well for us.
It looks pretty good to me, but not having seen the text yet I'm not sure. I can't find the table of contents online, so I have no idea if any other topics beyond the geometry ones were taken out, or added in for that matter. I can post my findings next week after my Rainbow order comes in if anyone cares?"
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Well, since I'm apparently NOT the only one to be wondering this, let me share what I've found. There IS more of a change than that, at least from looking at the samples.
http://saxonhomeschool.hmhco.com/HA/correlations/pdf/s/SH-AGA-4th-Sampler.pdf
I went through the Algebra II sampler and compared that lesson 58 on Completing the Square with lesson 58 on Lead Coefficients, More on Completing the Square in the current Algebra II. (Apparently I have too much time on my hands lately ;) !!!)
- 4th starts with some warmup questions, similar to the Mental Math in earlier levels of Saxon 4th but obviously with harder problems. We always liked that section, so that's a plus for us.
- 4th seems to have more of an emphasis on calling various properties & theorems & whatnot by their standard names - at least, 4th edition used names that I could find entries for on a Google search - I'm NOT a math person, so I don't really know!! An example is the Square Root Property referred to in 4th edition lesson 58. It's not mentioned by that name in 3rd, although the process is taught.
- 4th is wordier in their lessons - 4th has almost 4 pages of text before the exercises, 3rd has a page and a half. Not really a plus for us, dd isn't a wordy kinda gal. Most of that text in 4th is examples worked, starting with a really simple one, then an 'exploration' which shows a graphic model of the process, then two more slightly harder examples, and finally an 'application' or word problem.
- There seem to be more word problems - 4th has 10 word problems, 3rd has 4. This I like a lot, this is something I always felt Saxon was weak on.
- There are a number of little 'labels' that often come before a problem in 4th that give an idea what the problem is about or what it relates to - labels like 'Generalize', 'Justify', 'Physics', 'Agriculture', etc. A lot of these problems are a little different kinds of problems from the 3rd edition - some ask you to explain how to use a method, or find and correct an error in a wrong solution, things like that. It seems to be trying to connect the math to the real world a little more.
- 4th uses a graphing calculator for some problems.
So, in short, there are more differences, and it LOOKS ok to me, but I'm not a math person so I can't really judge. I've got a little extra money for curricula this year, and my daughter after looking at the samples is telling me THAT is the math she wants when we do Algebra (which will end up being 7th grade, probably, but we may start this year if she is really enthusiastic), so I went ahead and bought the 4th edition homeschool kit yesterday from Rainbow. I want to spend some time with it before I decide, probably work some of the lessons myself and see if they 'feel' comparable.
Finally, there is a glowing review of the school 4th edition on Amazon - http://www.amazon.com/Saxon-Algebra-1-Publications/dp/1602773025/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1308440321&sr=8-12 Read the comments on that review too, there's a conversation about how odd it is that this guy seems to like both Saxon and 'new math' texts.
So, I'm no expert, and I wish some experts would weigh in :) To ME, this looks like old Saxon with proper vocabulary, more word problems, and some more unusual approaches like the 'correct the error' problems. It still has the Saxon method of introducing a new concept, working a few problems for that lesson, and then the other problems reviewing previous info until it is solid in your head, which is a method that has worked exceedingly well for us.
It looks pretty good to me, but not having seen the text yet I'm not sure. I can't find the table of contents online, so I have no idea if any other topics beyond the geometry ones were taken out, or added in for that matter. I can post my findings next week after my Rainbow order comes in if anyone cares?
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Of course at this point we're just guessing since no one has had a chance to try WWS for very long yet, but I'd say if the child already had the core skills of narration and dictation under their belts it should work. I have a dd age 11 who was a rising 3rd grader when WWE came out, so I thought it was too late to start her on it (I regret that decision now!), but we are likely going to use WWS next year. After looking at the samples (thank you Patty & SWB!), it looks like something that will be doable for her and pretty much exactly covers what she needs to learn. I'm sure I won't be the only one using WWS without having used WWE much or at all.
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You're welcome! If he gets really into it and wants more suggestions, PM me, I have plenty :)
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Andrew Lang's The Arabian Nights. You can get the book for about $20 or a Kindle version for free. I like this version for the old-fashioned language, which always seems so appropriate to me for old stories. This version was written for children in 1918, so absolutely nothing objectionable :)
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Forgot to mention all those are secular.
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I'd start with The Snake and the Fox. It's a logic course, covers more than just symbolic logic, but it's a good start and will likely cover pretty much what he would want before going on to computer programming classes. If he gets really into it, he might look at some introductory college texts - I like Gensler's Introduction to Logic because it is pretty easy to understand, Copi's Introduction to Logic is a bit denser, but it covers a little more, too.
My background in logic - I took 4 semesters of symbolic logic as an undergraduate, and since then have taught several classes in critical thinking and/or symbolic logic to middle and high schoolers at our co-op.
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It's entirely possible nothing is wrong and he is get getting a little later start, which is no biggie.
BUT it sounds like you are worried, that is doesn't 'feel' normal to you. And frankly, if a mom has a strong feeling something is wrong with her child, that's always worth following up on. YOU are the greatest expert on YOUR child, and if it feels wrong to you, then get him checked out.
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Generally it means the same material is covered more than once. How exactly that is implemented can vary - sometimes a LOT!
For example, Saxon is usually considered a spiral program - you learn a new concept, do a few practice exercises with it the day you learn it, and then pretty much every lesson for the next 20-30 lessons, you will have one or more problems in the problem set that revisit that skill. So if lesson 43 is on adding mixed numbers, you will work 4-5 adding mixed numbers problems on that lesson, and then continue to work one or more adding mixed numbers problems for the next 20 lessons, and then probably you will continue to see adding mixed numbers after that, either they will throw one in every few problem sets just to remind you, or it will get 'folded in' to another skill - adding mixed numbers for example could be supplanted by problems where you have three or more mixed numbers and there is addition and subtraction of them in the same problem. You are still practicing the skill of adding mixed numbers, just you are also incorporating another skill into that same kind of problem. The idea is kinda like what they say about making a habit - if you do it every day for 20-30 days, you are much more likely to remember it and use it than if you do it really intensely for one day and then move on to a new thing.
Another program I have heard called a spiral approach is Everyday Mathematics, which is used by our local public schools. They cover fractions in 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th grade, in a little more depth in each year. They are also revisiting the same material, 'spiralling' back around to it once a year, but they won't continue to cover fractions again in 4th grade after the six week unit on fractions is over - the idea is that the kids might not remember everything about fractions the first time they encounter them, but since they will revisit the concept over several years, eventually it will all stick.
Hope that helps! It's a term that I've heard applied to a lot of programs, so I really think you have to look closely to make sure that what THEY mean by 'spiral' and what YOU mean by 'spiral' are reasonably close! :D
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I bet I'm the OP on that other thread ;)
Math Resources Meant for Adults But You Can Pick Through for Younger Kids
Raymond Smullyan's puzzle books, starting with The Lady or the Tiger? I designed a co-op class from these a few years ago that was very well received.
Martin Gardener's math puzzle books
Paul Zeitz's Great Courses DVD on Art and Craft of Mathematical Problem Solving
ANY Great Courses lectures by Art Benjamin - he's a mental math expert who calls himself a 'mathmagician' and does stage shows, highly entertaining and LOVES his subject matter.
Math Resources Meant for Kids
Edward Zacarro's math challenge books
The Snake and the Fox (logic text for middle school/high school - remember, logic is a branch of math!)
Murderous Maths - a British series, like the Horrible Histories but about math topics, these were hard for me to find the whole series but I finally found them here - http://www.fun-books.com/books/murderous_maths.htm
How to Lie With Statistics (EDITED to add this one!)
I'm sure I have more, that's all I can think of now!!
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If your library carries the Great Courses lectures, you might look for Science and Religion by Professor Lawrence M. Principe. Dr. Principe's view seems to be that religion and science are generally compatible, and I thought he did a good job of talking about the general issues. He comes across as a more 'liberal' Christian, it's not a defense of young earth creationism or anything like that, but neither is he foursquare 'all religion is nonsense'. It struck me as a well-reasoned perspective, and he is a good speaker. He talks quite a bit about WHY science and religion have a history of conflict, what knowledge is, what scientific methodology is, etc., but he also talks about specific events such as Galileo's conflicts with the Church and quite a bit about modern conflicts over evolution, the age of the earth, etc. Hope that helps!
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Oooo, love2read, good point, hadn't thought of that - and I can see that happening SO easily with her.....
Abacus2, thanks!! The idea of 'Number Theory + fun supplements' is sounding better and better - after we finished the Saxon Alg 1/2 book this year, we spent a couple weeks reading some of the Murderous Maths series. She was really excited about them and even though she was SUPPOSED to be reading them silently, we ended up with a LOT of "Mom! Listen to this!" on those days :)
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Thank you for all the replies! I'm afraid I wasn't clear - she seems to know everything a prealgebra course would normally cover except the geometry that was at the back of the Saxon Alg 1/2 book, specifically constructions and bisecting angles and whatnot. I don't think another year of prealgebra will help her with that part! :) Which is why we're planning on devoting a full year to geometry later. Sorry for the confusion!! :)
The Patty Paper Geometry sounds like it might be a good supplement, thanks to the posters who suggested that!!
LoF - we tried it midwinter when she was struggling with ratio and distance & I'm afraid it is too wordy for her - she likes her math straight without the extra fiction - which is too bad, because I thought it was really cute!! :)
My husband has chimed in with his opinion that if I want to give her a year where she'll be interested but not overwhelmed, instead of having her repeat old material, have her do half lessons each day, taking 2 days to complete what would normally be a one day lesson.
Sigh. I'm trying to get the 5 options I ALREADY had narrowed down, and people keep offering me NEW options!! :lol:
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OK, I've looked at the Singapore samples, and DD looked over my shoulder and said it was too easy and boring :( Discovering Mathematics DOES look like stuff she's already covered. Plus, she's now being pretty insistent that we NOT cover pre-algebra topics again, so I'm leaning more and more towards going ahead with Saxon Algebra 3rd edition or 4th edition or AoPS number theory - anyone have any opinions there? Thanks!
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If he's a kinesthetic and auditory learner, have you looked at Math-U-See? Sounds like he would probably start at the Episolon, maybe the Zeta level. It's not THE cheapest, but it's way cheaper than TT. I've never used it, but I know other families with 'hands-on' kids who RAVE about it, plus it has those DVDs for the auditory learning. There's a placement test here - http://www.mathusee.com/about-us/placement/
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If you did Saxon Algebra 1/2, I wouldn't do 8/7 if you decide to repeat pre-algebra. What about Singapore Discovering Mathematics 1? If you use the workbook there would presumably be enough challenge to keep a bright student interested.
I haven't really looked at Singapore - to be quite frank, the zillions of books confuse me and I wouldn't know where to start :D We did Singapore Primary Mathematics 1A & 1B a long time ago and she was pretty bored, and she's not a big fan of lots of visuals, so I haven't bothered to try to figure it out. Think it would be worthwhile?
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BBC Schools has a GREAT free program online - http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/typing/
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I have a bright, math-loving dd who will be in sixth grade in the fall. We have always used Saxon, which she has been accelerated in and has complained a lot over the years that it is too easy. She enjoys math puzzles and problem solving, is very quick with mental calculations, and intends to study either math, chemistry, or engineering (depending on which day you ask her! :001_smile: ).
Some background - This year she finished Saxon Algebra 1/2 3rd edition. However, for the first time she hit a few snags - we had some trouble with ratios and the distance formula mid-year, and towards the end of the year she just could NOT wrap her head around some of the geometry. I think the mid-year problems were due to stress at home (dad was off work for awhile) and are resolved now (dad's working again, hooray!). We have covered ratio and distance since then and she has NO trouble with it. Geometry is however still a problem and she is beginning to hate it.
To top it off, I have declared that next year WILL be the year we get her up to grade level for writing. She has always hated writing and done very poorly at it, but she has made great strides in reading and grammar in 5th and I think she just needs a good push to bring her writing up also. I have what I think will be a good plan but it will be extremely challenging for her and she will get frustrated a lot, especially at the beginning of the year. So I am wary of pushing her in math at the same time & want to give her a math program that will be interesting and fun, but not TOO challenging.
We have AoPS Intro to Algebra and I don't quite think she has the maturity for it yet - she likes to right ALL the time and has a perfectionist streak, the discovery method combined with new & challenging material would probably overwhelm her and cause her to doubt her ability. But, I think eventually we are going to end up in the AoPS series if for nothing else than the Number Theory and Counting and Probability books.
For in the fall, I am considering -
- continuing with Saxon Algebra I 3rd edition
PROS: this is what dd is familiar with
CONS: the integrated geometry will make her cry
- switching to Saxon Algebra 1 4th editon
PROS: geometry on hold until later when we can devote a whole year to it, looks to have a lot more of the problem-solving and word problems that she loves. DD WANTS to do this one after seeing the online samples.
CONS: nobody seems to have the love for this. Can't find any reviews or anyone who has used this happily. Even the Saxon rep at the convention told me we didn't want it, although when I asked him why he said because the geometry is split out, which I frankly think would be a plus for us. A little nervous about using ANY program when it is brand spanking new.
- Saxon 8/7 (which we did not do previously), done at her own, accelerated pace, followed by AoPS Prealgebra and/or AoPS Intro to Number Theory
PROS: won't be overly challenging on top of the writing on other subjects, same format as the Saxon 4th Algebra stuff so gets her used to that, the AoPS stuff at the end of the year will be emphasizing the fun stuff and not approached too rigorously. Covers the stuff that was covered last year so I don't have to worry that there are holes in her knowledge due to a stressful winter. All these threads lately about kids who aren't ready for algebra/higher math make me worry :blink:
CONS: I'm afraid she'll be bored and we'll waste a year covering stuff she already knows, just because I'm worried about gaps and overwhelming her.
- AoPS Prealgebra
PROS: she already knows most of the material, so not overly challenging. Introduces a new style, very different from Saxon, and gives her a chance to get used to the discovery method without TOO much frustration. All these threads lately about kids who aren't ready for algebra/higher math make me worry :blink:
CONS: she already knows most of the material, and approaching it from a new perspective may not be enough to hold her interest.
- AoPS Intro to Number Theory
PROS: almost all new material, none of it strictly NECESSARY so if she doesn't 'get' some aspect of it, it doesn't matter. She LOVES what number theory we have done so far & it's not unusual for her to suddenly pipe up with some random fact about primes or divisibility or base 2 numbers that she's worked out on her own.
CONS: Discovery method may not be best for a very young perfectionist. Would hate myself if I turned her off of number theory, which she clearly loves, because I chose a text that was a poor fit for her at this age. Not sure if the material covered will help her with Algebra the next year or if it will distract her from it.
Those are my main choices - I've also considered Jacobs, Dolciani, Foerester, Math U See, and simply beating my head against the wall! :tongue_smilie: Sorry I wrote such a book! Thanks for reading this far, if you did!! :D Any advice, suggestions, comments welcome, I'm literally changing my mind two or three times a day right now, have to settle on SOMETHING before August!! Thanks!!
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Oh, and for curricula, yes, better secular stuff across the board. I ESPECIALLY want a government/citizenship course that does NOT promote American exceptionalism & imperialism!
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Not curricula, but I have noticed over the years that a lot of 'side' services that the public schools do automatically, a lot of homeschoolers seem to overlook. Fire safety programs, hearing tests, things like that. At a program I set up for homeschoolers ages PreK to about 4th grade, the coordinator asked how many kids knew their phone number and address. Out of 11 families, only my daughter and one other family's kids knew.
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Yes. In fact, I would say a child who has gone through the entire Key to series, including the Key to Algebra books, is probably ready to begin Algebra (assuming the child actually did well on the Key to stuff, not just 'went through it but didn't grasp it and promptly forgot it'). However, even if the child is young or there is any question about retention, I would imagine the child would be ready for a good prealgebra course.
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We also use the videos as extra explanation for difficult concepts. I thought my daughter would love the online exercises & badges & whatnot, but she got tired of it after a couple days :confused: But, the videos are good - frankly I think he does a better job and is more entertaining that any of the other algebra DVDs I have seen. (Not that I have seen all of them by any means!)
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It's been a couple years since we used them, but I seem to remember a lot of crafty/creative suggestions - make the words out of playdoh, write the word with glue and cover with glitter, use your list words to write a newspaper, etc. My dd HATES anything crafty, so these did not work for us at ALL. I don't remember anything particularly academic about them at all.
science curriculum help
in K-8 Curriculum Board
Posted
I've been using public school texts as a spine, a la SOTW. For example, right now we just finished using Holt Science and Technology Earth Science for my just-finished-fifth-grade dd. Most days, she read a section of the text & answered the review questions at the back. We supplemented most chapters with library books or DVDs (Bill Nye was a frequent visitor to our homeschool this year!! :) ). There were some labs in the books, we did some of them and didn't do some of them, but to be quite frank, it depended more on how busy mommy was that day than anything else... My 5 year old, who LOVES science, didn't work on the spine with us, but he often 'sat in' on the labs and supplements. It was very simple to implement, dd liked it, it was entirely secular, and quite cheap - I got a used text on Amazon for about $10. I'm planning on doing something similar until she's old enough to go to the local community college for 'real' lab classes. Just another option to consider!!