JessieC
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Posts posted by JessieC
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2 minutes ago, Spy Car said:
In contrast, I've never seen a single study that shows any advantage for feeding dogs in the general population carbohydrates. I've looked. So if you have a study. I'm open to reading it.
Bill
Great, there are a few links on my post, in addition to the many links I have provided that show the recommendations and conclusions by those who spend their lives studying canine nutrition.
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1 hour ago, Spy Car said:
No one has linked a study that shows advantages to feeding carbs. I'd happily read any such study. Do you have one?
There are dozens and dozens of studies on high-protein/high-fat vs high carb diets. Try Google Scholar. Easily provable.
It's really obnoxious that you request a study from us and claim there are dozens of studies on your side, but every link we send you is ignored and you have not provided a single study to back up your point. You ask us for studies, ignore what we share, then tell us to go find the studies you have read on Google Scholar.
I'm going with what the consensus of experts in veterinary health, including my own veterinarian, recommend. I am feeding my dog Purina Pro Plan because it's been well-researched with long-term studies, and developed by animal nutrition experts.
Here are some articles for those who are interested. The first discusses the raw food/all meat diets The two others discuss the health benefits of carbohydrate/grains in the canine diet.
https://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12917-019-1824-x
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0034528816303332
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Hi everyone, Here is an informative link for understanding the DCM issue. I hope it helps some dog owners!
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5 hours ago, Spy Car said:
I suggest you have the wrong take away. Eating carbs cuts a dogs stamina and vitality in a profound way. It actively de-tunes their condition. There is nothing positive that comes with disrupting fat metabolism by feeding carbs.
PMR fed dogs get plenty of protein and (critically) fat. Fat metabolism is dogs, with fat as the primary energy source and protein as the secondary source (and carbs eliminated), is optimal. The author's contention that PMR fed dogs are prone to obesity is ridiculous. That is an absorb contention that flying in the face of reality. Has the author never met a PMR fed dog? I think not.
Bill
Bill, your source did not show that carbohydrates are detrimental to dogs, quite the opposite.
My understanding is that "PMR" diets are not recommended by animal health experts. I think it's a fad diet along the lines of "paleo" for humans, to be honest.
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52 minutes ago, dsmith said:
I purchased some Science Diet shortly after posting. It's what he was on as a puppy so at least I'm familiar with the brand. Fortunately he already had a vet appointment scheduled for tomorrow and they didn't feel I needed to rush in today. On his last visit the vet thought his heart was slightly enlarged from an x-ray that was taken where he could see some narrowing of the trachea, but he was not showing any symptoms at all. It's just in the last 2 weeks that I've noticed he's been a little more tired. I'm a nervous wreck until tomorrow.
Best of luck and please keep us posted!
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7 minutes ago, Spy Car said:
The full report makes it crystal clear that there is no essential need for canines to consume carbohydrates. I'm not sure how to make that more clear. The pamphlet, aimed at a popular audience, is unclear in expressing the finding on this point. There is NOTHING in carbohydrates that dogs require. Full stop
Carbs are unnecessary in a canine diet.
Dog's do NOT produce salivary amylase (the enzyme necessary to process starches) as nearly every omnivore does. Further, the capacity to produce amylase in the pancreas is a trait that is very unevenly distributed in the dog population. There has been an evolutionary pressure for dogs to develop this train relative to wolves (who share the same species), but canines eating carbohydrates in the amounts in dog food is totally unnatural and unhealthful.
The NRC report does not address the harm of eating carbohydrates. Many dozens of papers in the veterinary scientific literature do establish the risks of eating carbs to vitality, obesity, and teeth.
Dogs are not omnivores. That is totally false. Further, cats--which ARE obligate carnivores--are supplied with cat food by manufacturers that are loaded with plant-based carbs despite it being contra indicated or obligate carnivores. It is a scandal. The same companies load dog food with wildly unnatural amounts of carbohydrate--because they are cheap for the manufacturer--and these ingredients take a toll on health.
That cooked grains are more accessible than raw ones is a red herring. It is not a natural part of a diet, period.
The statement about "all-meat diets" being "unbalanced" is a contemptible semantic trick. Yes, feeding ONLY meat would imbalance the calcium/phosphorus ratio that dogs require, which is why PMR feeders give 10% soft-edible bone (to keep the ratio of Calcium to Phosphorus at 1.2:1. It is also why PRM feeds 10% organs to provide optimal levels of vitamins and other minerals.
A PMR approach is "balanced" and sources who criticize "all-meat" diets as unbalanced are engaging in a type of deception. No one should serve a dog ONLY MEAT. That does not change the fact that animal products has all the nutrients that dogs need and that they are far more optimal than plant based alternatives.
Bill
Saying "full stop" is not the same as providing sources or references for any of your points. I am willing to believe that some dogs may not technically require carbohydrates in their diets, but do not believe that they are harmful as you say, and I believe they provide many benefits. Also, in my opinion, bone and organs is not really going to make an all-meat diet more balanced. We've asked you multiple times for any links to back up your opinions, but you have not given even one. I'm not going to continue arguing about it, and it's your right to feed your dog as you want, but please be careful in advising others without actual evidence to back it up. As I said, I will trust veterinary nutritionists on this issue.
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44 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:
I am kind of laughing at myself. For years, I've made a special effort to drive to the fancy dog food store on the other side of town, with all the organic dog foods. And the dog food lady there convinced me to try all sorts of grain free foods before I finally was like "this isn't working" and we settled on some brands with grain, most recently the Wellness one.A few weeks ago, I didn't make it to the fancy pet store, so I ordered on Amazon, but we ran out before it came. So, I ran to the 7-11 and all they had was Pro Plan, which he seemed to like and tolerate. But I felt so guilty! I mean, I wouldn't feed my human kids a 7-11 diet. Sure, maybe a slurpee now and then but not day after day!
Are you telling me, that I should have been going to 7-11 the whole time? That I wasted all those trips across town for the 10 years I've had this dog?
Many of us did the same thing! We just wanted the best for our animals and believed these fancy brands were better. You are not alone!
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2 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:
Where can I find the list of the 5 recommended foods?
The World's Small Animal Veterinarian Association suggests five different dog foods while the investigation is going on:
1. Royal Canin
2. Science Diet
3. Eukanuba
4. Iams
5. Purina Pro Plan-
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55 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:
I feel fortunate that all the grain free foods my dog tried made him constipated, but the food we’ve been feeding (Wellness Complete Health) has peas, along with grains.
Should I be worried?
I don't see Wellness on the list of foods the FDA has received reports about (scroll down and you can see the graph with brands listed), but it is also not one of the 5 currently recommended. I'd ask your vet!
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40 minutes ago, Spy Car said:
You are confusing yourself due to poor word choices in the pamphlet. Nowhere does this pamphlet say that carbohydrates MUST be consumed, or that they SHOULD be consumed. They only say that carbs CAN be consumed. The full report explicitly says that dogs have NO ESSENTIAL NEED TO CONSUME CARBOHYDRATES.
I was not confused. The pamphlet says Dogs need several different kinds of nutrients to survive: amino acids from proteins, fatty acids and carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals, and water.
Are you suggesting the full report found carbs to be harmful, and then they decided to change it to a nutrient necessary to survive for the public? What kind of research organization would do that? You still have not provided evidence to back up claims that dogs get everything they need from animal sources or that carbohydrates are harmful, but I promise I am willing to take a look if you provide the links.
This link from VCA reflects to my knowledge the current consensus (text below)
https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/nutrition-general-feeding-guidelines-for-dogs
Since dogs are carnivores, doesn’t this mean that they need to eat a diet that is meat based?
As a species, the dog is a member of the scientific order Carnivora, a large group of mammalian animals that share a similar tooth structure. The dietary needs of animals belonging to this order vary. Some members of this group have an absolute requirement for meat in their diet (called obligate or true carnivores), while others can meet their nutrient requirements through eating plant material (herbivores) or a combination of meat and plants (omnivores). Cats are an example of an obligate carnivore, cows are an example of an herbivore, and dogs and humans are two examples of omnivores.
Because of the dietary needs of dogs, both their tooth structure and intestinal tract have become adapted to an omnivorous diet. This means that, under normal circumstances, dogs can meet their nutritional needs by eating a combination of plant and animal foods. The source of the proteins and fats is less important than the quality and digestibility of these essential components of the dog’s diet. Dogs can thrive if they are fed a properly balanced vegetarian diet. However, an all-meat diet would be unbalanced and would not meet all of a dog’s nutritional requirements.
As research into basic and applied nutrition has expanded our knowledge of canine nutrition, we now know that a well-balanced diet must also include an appropriate amount of minerals, vitamins, certain essential amino acids (from proteins), and specific essential fatty acids (from fats). These components are needed to build and maintain tissue and carry out biological reactions, and the necessary amounts vary somewhat with the dog’s stage of life (puppy, adolescent, adult, pregnancy, senior). Feeding your dog an appropriate amount of a well-balanced diet is vital to its overall health and well-being.
I was told that dogs cannot digest carbohydrates. Is this true?
To meet their energy needs, dogs have evolved to use proteins and fats as their primary energy sources, but they can also use carbohydrates for energy. The fact that the dog’s digestive system produces enzymes that are specific for digesting starches and sugars shows that they are capable of digesting carbohydrates. However, complex carbohydrates such as grains are more digestible when they are cooked.
I have heard that dogs should only eat raw foods and that dogs cannot properly digest cooked foods. Is this true?
Domesticated dogs have adapted over millennia to consumption of diets provided by their human companions, including foods that have been cooked. As mentioned above, dogs can actually digest complex carbohydrates more easily once they have been cooked.
What are the nutritional requirements for dogs?
The six basic nutrients are water, proteins, fats, carbohydrates, minerals, and vitamins. These essential nutrients are required as part of the dog’s regular diet and are involved in all of the basic functions of the body. The minimum dietary requirement has been established for many nutrients. The maximum tolerable amounts of some nutrients are known, and results of toxicity have been established. What is less understood is what may happen over time with marginal deficiencies or excesses.
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5 minutes ago, Spy Car said:
While this pamphlet may be "based on" the Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats, it is not one and the same. In "popularizing" the information the author(s) of the pamphlet use language that is likely to cause cause confusion and they omit the central question at hand in our discussion.
For example, when they say that an adult dog’s daily diet "can" contain up to 50% carbohydrates by weight, it should NOT be misread as the NRC saying a dog's diet "must" contain carbohydrates, nor that it "should" contain carbohydrates.
It says right there, in the source you used to back up your point, that carbohydrate is an essential nutrient. Can you please link me to a scientific source for where you are getting your information? Your views are at odds with a large consensus of veterinary nutritionists and veterinarians, and unless there is something to back it up, it is just "bro science" to me. Sorry, but I've seen both humans and animals whose health has been at risk based on what they think sounds right or seems natural regarding nutrition rather than looking to the experts.
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13 minutes ago, dsmith said:
I'm glad I came on here today. Why haven't I heard anything about this? My dog's food is on the list and pea protein is high on the ingredient list. I was just saying to dh that he seems extra tired lately, and now I'm worried. He's been on this food for about 6 months now. I'm going to call the vet and ask for a recommendation in light of this report. We have been grain free for years due to chronic ear infections that cleared up after switching, but our previous food didn't have the pea protein that I'm aware of.
There is no grain-free food that is considered safe at this time, unfortunately. The pea protein/pulses is one possibility for the increase in DCM but they're still trying to figure it out. If you're on Facebook, you can join the group https://www.facebook.com/groups/TaurineDCM/ to learn more. The good news is that nutritional DCM can be reversed after switching to one of the recommended foods (not the grain-free versions): Iam's, Science Diet, Purina, Royal Canin, and Eukanaba are considered well-researched and safe--no dogs have been reported to nutritional DCM while on these foods.. Hopefully your pup is just reacting to summer heat, but I would switch foods right away if I were you. The only real way to know if diet has affected a dog's heart is through an echocardiogram. Many dogs had normal taurine levels but still developed DCM.
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15 hours ago, Spy Car said:
I got the information directly from the official report of the world's leading authority on dog nutrition, the National Research Council, which affirms that dogs have no essential need for carbohydrates.
Plus dozens and dozens of scholarly studies on canine nutrition that show the more cards that dogs eat the less vitality they have in quantifiable testing
This is the pamphlet on the National Research Council site, which supports my belief that fat, protein, and carbohydrates are all necessary in a dog's diet. If you could link me to a study that you have read that shows carbs are detrimental to dogs, I am willing to keep an open mind, but all of the trusted sources stress a balance that includes carbohydrate in a dog's diet.
http://dels.nas.edu/resources/static-assets/banr/miscellaneous/dog_nutrition_final_fix.pdf
Quotes from National Research Council pamphlet linked above:
Dogs need several different kinds of nutrients to survive: amino acids from proteins, fatty acids and carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals, and water. T
Scientific research has shown that an adult dog’s daily diet can contain up to 50% carbohydrates by weight, including 2.5–4.5% from fiber. A minimum of approximately 5.5% of the diet should come from fats and 10% from protein.
Q: Does my dog need to eat meat? A: Because dogs are descended from omnivores, they are not strict meat eaters. They are remarkably adaptable to a wide range of ingredients, texture, and form in terms of what they will eat. Though many dogs may prefer animal-based protein, they can thrive on a vegetarian diet. Regardless of whether the protein comes from plant or animal sources, normal adult dogs should get at least 10% of their total calories from protein. Older dogs appear to require somewhat more protein to maintain their protein reserves, perhaps as much as 50% more
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Here is a link to the FDA report that came out very recently. Blue Buffalo, Taste of the Wild, Acana, Orijen, and more are all on the list of dog foods connected to nutrition-related DCM in dogs. They simply don't have the long-term trials and veterinary nutritionists on their staffs that bigger name brands have. For now, I would stay away from all of them.
The only currently recommended foods are Purina, Iam's, Hill's/Science Diet, Eukanaba, and Royal Canin. I would strongly encourage everyone to switch to one of these until more is known.
There is a FB group that gives a lot more information. Many, many people have lost their beloved pets due to these "BEG" foods (Boutique, Exotic ingredients, Grain-Free). Many more are seeing their dogs' health improve after switching to a tried and true brand. Here is a link. https://www.facebook.com/groups/TaurineDCM/
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12 minutes ago, Spy Car said:
It may be the best "lessor of two evils" to avoid peas, other legumes, and possibly potato. This in no way absolves the serious issues of feeding grains (or any carbohydrates) to dogs.
If we feed dog's unnatural foodstuffs there are consequences.
Bill
Where are you getting this information? There are a lot of misconceptions out there, and again most reputable veterinary nutritionists would say that dogs do need carbohydrates. There are some websiites out there that make unfounded claims and are run by people who are not veterinarians or veterinary nutritionists, like Whole Dog Journal, Dog Food Advisor, Dogs Naturally, etc.
From vetnutrition.tufts.edu:
Whole grains, rather than being
fillers
, contribute valuable nutrients including vitamins, minerals, essential fatty acids and fiber to diets while helping to keep the fat and calories lower than if animal products were used in their place. Even refined grains such as white rice can have beneficial health implications depending on the type of diet and the pet. The vast majority of dogs (and cats!) are very efficient at digesting and utilizing nutrients from grains. While some dogs are allergic to specific grains, these allergies are no more common than allergies to animal proteins such as chicken, beef and dairy and tend to reflect the prevalence of the ingredient in commercial diets rather than enhanced antigenicity.From American College for Veterinary Nutrition:
http://dels.nas.edu/resources/static-assets/banr/miscellaneous/dog_nutrition_final_fix.pdf
Other links:
https://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/evr_dg_carbohydrates_key_to_balanced_dog_food
https://pets.webmd.com/dogs/dog-nutrition#1
https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/nutrition-general-feeding-guidelines-for-dogs
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22 minutes ago, Spy Car said:
What is optimal is a Prey Model Raw style approach where one feeds "meat" at 80% (about 30% of that fat), soft edible bone at 10%, and 10% organs (half of that liver and half other "secreting organ" like kidney, sweetbreads (thymus gland/pancreas), spleen, etc.
Consumers started getting away from grain for good reasons. Grain is unnatural to their diet and in modern dog food to reduce costs. It is bad for teeth, bad, for vitality, bad for coat, and for general condition. So people looked for rations with less grain. Not a bad impulse really.
I believe most veterinary nutritionists would disagree with this. What is your source for this information? Dogs, unlike cats, are considered omnivores rather than carnivores, and need to get nutrients from plant and animal sources. One of the Guiness world record oldest dogs in recent history was fed a vegan diet (not advocating that, just pointing out that dogs don't need meat as cats do, and an all-meat diet would not be optimal, in my understanding). Dogs have eaten grains as long as humans have.
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Hi all,
I've been following this issue closely because my family has a new golden retriever puppy, and I discovered to my dismay after buying a huge expensive bag of grain-free Orijen food because the pet store owner assured me it was "the best" that many of these foods are indeed tied to diet-related DCM and that many owners do not know anything is wrong until their dog dies suddenly. Very scary! I threw out the entire bag and switched to Purina Pro Plan (as others have mentioned, Royal Canin, Science Diet/Hill's, Iam's and Eukanaba are also considered safe). The exact reason is unknown and more research needs to be done, but after reading the many stories of families who have lost their beloved dogs on the facebook page Taurine-Deficient Dilated Cardio Myopathy, I am playing it safe until we know more. My understanding is that some homemade/raw diets can be safe, but have also been implicated in diet-related DCM, so if you choose to go this route, the recommendation is to work with a veterinary nutritionist. I really appreciate my vet made me aware of this issue! There is a lot of denial out there and people trying to discredit the findings, but in my view there is definitely enough evidence that these foods can cause serious issues. Many dogs have also seen their DCM reversed when they begin eating one of the five brands currently recommended.
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We bought this and it is sooo comfortable.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CEMH2CQ/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&th=1
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31 minutes ago, wendyroo said:
I always think of sight reading like teaching arithmetic one problem at a time:
"Now let's all review our problem of the day: 117 + 74 = 191. Look at how there are two 1's in the problem and two 1's in the answer - that will make it easy to remember this one!! Let's hang it up on our problem wall with all the other problems we have learned and then we are going to play sight problem BINGO. We need to get really good at recognizing these problems so we are ready to learn tomorrow's really cool problem with all curvy numbers!!!"
Wendy
I do not think of it like this--I think of sight words as similar to learning math facts. When I say sight words, I really mean "trick" words--commonly used words like of, was, one, some, would, etc. that do not follow regular phonetic rules. In my years of teaching reading to children, I find it most efficient to teach these as separate trick words to memorize rather than sound out. There is little benefit to requiring application of more obscure phonics patterns to these oddballs in the early reading stage, and without having them automatic, kids can't access easy texts to practice their decoding of more phonetically regular words.
While I am certainly pro-phonics, I disagree with the idea that teaching reading is just teaching phonics. There are a number of complex factors at play as a child learns to read.
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I'm wondering if she could start an at-home tutoring business for children with reading disabilities, or work at a tutoring center. Experience with dyslexia is high-need right now. Perhaps she could start working toward a reading specialist certficiation.
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Does she have a medical diagnosis? We have looked into this for my dd with type 1 diabetes, but they run up to 20k, so they are out of our reach for now.
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Wilson's Fundations is a "prevention" phonics program for K-3, heavily focused on the encoding. Most schools do it whole-class, but it can be an intervention only.
SPIRE is compatible with the O-G method.
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I have an aversion to the photo Christmas and holiday cards. Tiny Prints...Shutterfly...etc.. Bleh.
I see pics of your fam on FB everyday. I would love to get a quick hand-written note and a pretty decorative card to display...stars...snow...Santa...manger scene...shoot, I'd even take a pic of green and red vodka shots...just give me the old cards!!! I am a Christmas card traditionalist! I feel that the holiday season has too much busyness and not enough quiet, so I see the old cards as a way to dial back and to not participate in the commercial hype.
This has actually inspired me to send pretty old-school Christmas cards this year. Thanks!
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FDA lists dog food brands linked to DCM
in The Chat Board
Posted · Edited by JessieC
You have to actually read the articles. I can't do the work for you. Functional foods refers to fruits, veg, grains, etc., which contain carbs. I am leaving the argument. Feel free to have the last word, which I know you want, but despite the long-winded mansplaining, you have not provided any evidence or convinced anyone that you know what dogs need better than animal nutritionists do.
From second link, just one example:
Examples of functional foods studied in human nutrition include fruits, vegetables, whole grains, prebiotics, and probiotics. The results of these studies have highlighted numerous benefits of functional foods, including better digestive function, improved satiety, and enhanced antioxidant activity.