Amy Jo
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Posts posted by Amy Jo
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Have you considered studied dictation instead? SWR takes time, and it has a learning curve. How is her spelling now?
Anyway, we moved from SWR to dictation (Spelling Wisdom) because of time. I am still toying with the idea of doing SWR together, 5 easier words (starting with list A) and 5 challenging words (starting from either L or M, older boys only) a day, and discussing them. And doing non-collecting reference pages on the whiteboard (pencil phobic kids).
One time-saver idea I read on the Yahoo group is to dictate 5-8 new words everyday, and then test on 20-40 words. To save time (this isn't from the SWR group) you could use Spelling City to do the testing. Then you'd only need to do the new words and any reference pages. You could probably cut down to 15 minutes or so per day, after you learned the program.
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Is it possible to use Zaccaro for, say 3rd-6th grade math? Because I love MEP, but I need to face facts - it's not getting done due to time constraints. I would have life math and Miquon before Zaccaro, and then move the kids into Singapore NEM. I also have the Kitchen Table Math books.
Or, if Zaccaro is not enough, what would you add (besides fact drill)?
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Perhaps your boxes, or some of them, could be questions pertaining to your goals? Sometimes even changing a word helps me focus on what -- maybe "explore" instead of just "read".
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I think ads would be good - I assume they would be appropriate, of course.
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I didn't mean to imply that Abigail Adams was inappropriate, only that it assumes a certain amount of maturity in the student. It would be a shame, I think, to edit anything out, especially for your daughter. I'm glad you've figured out what to do.
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I don't really see the big hoopla about history. It is one subject. Saying that on the WTM board will probably get me shot at dawn. :D (Yes, I am aware that wouldn't be a popular statement on the AO forum either! Just my opinion.) I would rather read literature with my kids to discuss. We had a lovely time, discussions, games, story-tellings, drawings, etc about The Hobbit. A lot more fun than King II had a war with King III and King III killed him. His son, King IV ....
How many of the books in the mid years have you read? I mean, the Abigail Adams bio, for example, mentions the desire for her husband before they married, her baby dying, being separated from her children/husband, her son dying as an alcoholic, etc. I wouldn't want to read that too young, personally. I think the age it is scheduled for is good. Really, why not just do SCM, combine the ancient years as someone suggested, and then just use AO to pull books from? I think starting with a curriculum that is combined, then beefing it up is going to be easier. Especially since AO kind of has a 6 year history rotation, not 4. So there are only 2 levels of books.
Like Stripe said, it is entirely your choice. :) And it isn't easy. Many here have spent a lot of time trying to find the best course. I really do hope you can find the best path. And you may just have to try something! Perhaps you could use the summer and plan out a 6-8 week combined unit and see how that works for you?
I went through this summer before last. I made lists to compare the Great Books Academy, Latin Centered Curriculum/Memoria Press, Ambleside Online, Milestones, SCM, and Higher Up & Further In. I agonized over it. It came down to my style - I prefer to tutor. I am horrible at group stuff. Now, I'm working on doing it still, because I think it is important, but I don't want to stake the base of their education on group things. What is your style? Your children's style? How much time do you have?
I hope you can come to a decision that you have peace with.
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I like Henle as well, or Linney's Latin class is free.
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Okay, let me start over.
1. I didn't say anything about "non-Western culture," so I'm not sure why that's even being brought up.
There are many Westerners who don't have English literature as part of their national heritage, but do share our Greek and Roman roots. Some of them are on this thread (hi, Tress :001_smile: ). If we focus on reading lists of classics in our own language, we aren't creating or reinforcing the sense of that common background.
This doesn't mean that we all need to learn Latin and Greek. But some of our young people should, especially if they're academically inclined, ambitious, or in some other way likely candidates for leadership. We need that group of people who have both the intellectual skills, and the shared sense of the "long view," that have traditionally been developed through classical texts and pedagogy. (Traditionally this was maybe 5%-10%. In modern terms, sort of an honors course.)
Sorry again. I took that sentence to mean advanced. And the following sentence that they have "intellectual skills". I'm coming more from an LCC (Latin Centered Curriculum) than a WTM viewpoint. I do Latin, not grammar and vocabulary and word roots. Not that the other way is wrong, but I like subjects that pull double/triple duty -- fewer things to track. (Which is a point in the Amongst Lovely Things post.)
And Kern's second most recommended book seems to be Homer, which is Greek and shared by Western nations. I'm just not sure what you mean. I apologize. Do you mean we need to learn a modern language like Spanish (for example) so we can read books in Spanis? Even though that should be pretty easy (reading I mean) if one knew Latin. But I agree that in America (in general) we need to get learning/teaching some additional modern languages. I hope that my kids will all be able to read Spanish comfortably and to go on a mission trip to Mexico and get practical application by speaking it.
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I disagree about only advanced children learning Latin. My struggling reader, who is probably dyslexic and has hit every bump on his road to reading, is learning Latin. He doesn't memorize as fast as his brother, but that's okay. He's doing just fine.
Now, more importantly, what is a Hobbit breakfast? We LOVE the Hobbit.
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I think maybe some people are talking about integrating many things into literature because that's what some "Circe-ish" bloggers (such as Amongst Lovely Things) and other homeschool moms talk about being one of the keys to simplifying your curriculum and teaching from a state of rest.
For example, on Amongst Lovely Things, integrating into literature is a big part of this post below:
http://www.amongstlovelythings.com/2014/03/simplify-the-curriculum.html
However, on the Circe site, they talk about the importance of integrating in a totally different way. They talk about integrating all teaching in Christ:
http://www.circeinstitute.org/principles-classical-education
I'm guessing that's why there's some confusion about what's being asked and what's being answered.
(Or maybe not :) )
Hmmm - thank you for the links. But I think all things are already integrated in Christ -- in him all things hold together (Col 1:17). So no sweat. Seriously - science/nature study/physical geography - the beauty of the world. Literature/poetry - the beauty of words, the actions of mankind. History, cultural geography - mankind, God's highest creation -- how did they behave? What end did they reach? How shall we act?
Hmmm, let me try again. I'll cheat - Charlotte Mason had three areas of study. The Knowledge of God. The Knowledge of the Universe (the creation). The Knowledge of Man (who Christ came to save). So all integrated around Christ. Easy. Makes more sense than that Circe page.
But I can see why everyone is confused. I'll stick with the podcasts and videos, they take smaller bites. That page is like trying to swallow the whole onion.
I don't have an opinion on the Amongst Lovely Things posts. I do like the blog, and I try to keep the number of subjects down. But I just can't design a ground-up curriculum. I satisfy my tweaking & designing urges on small scale in morning time.
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We don't do diagramming, we do Latin. Works for me anyway. I guess we diagram in Latin. LOL.
I've never said "we all should really be totally integrated." That implies that each of us is obligated to tie school subjects together in our current circumstances, and I don't think that's the case.
It's more a question of what "should be" going on in the wider discussions about education. Integration of the curriculum is an ideal, and it's a core characteristic of classical education. CiRCE is all about ideals, and they do mention this one. But I don't see them talking much about it. Or else they shift the focus from "integration around literature" to "integration in Christ." But that isn't classical education. It's simply Christian education.
This is another major concern I have with the direction of these discussions. From everything I've read, the curriculum and pedagogy of historic classical Christian education were very similar to those of classical pagan education. The "integration in Christ" came from the context: the example of the teachers and fellow students, the religion classes, the communal prayers and liturgies. (Actual liturgies, not some modern idea of "academic practices as liturgy.")
To put it bluntly, the main idea at CiRCE seems to be to use literature as a means of moral training, rather than as a means of studying the arts of language.
Have you heard Kern's talk on The Five Paths to Great Writing? One of the paths is literature. The article you linked says classical education has an emphasis on language.
- This is not classical. It's a modern plan, which seems to have first caught on in Victorian England (where literature was seen as a substitute for a "fading" religious faith).
- Insofar as it neglects our Western heritage of languages and literatures, it's eroding our common ground with non-believers and with people from other countries.
I don't understand the above point. You are saying it neglects Western languages and literature, AND that in erodes common ground with, I assume, non-Western culture? By not doing Western culture we have less in common with non-Westerners? I'm sure I am misunderstanding something.
- While it might be filling students full of true, good, and beautiful ideas, it's not doing a whole lot in training them to communicate these ideas to others. This was the goal of classical education. Not personal growth as an end in itself, but the development of eloquentia perfecta, for the service of the common good. Because we are fundamentally relational beings, and we relate by communicating.
Again, I don't understand. We are training them to communicate. Andrew Kern himself wrote a writing program, The Lost Tools of Writing. Why fill someone with ideas and then (as if it would be possible) deny them the ability to express the ideas?
(Ironically, some of the American Jesuit schools are rediscovering this, just as the new wave of "classical Catholic" schools are ignoring it. :huh: )
So... to try to bring this back to the topic... maybe the thing to ask is, what are we "integrating" around? What are our proximate goals for education?
Added some questions in red to your post. I guess I'm not understanding this thread at all, sorry. I'm not integrating around anything, really. That's why I'm at a place of rest. I don't have to match my history, geography and science. AO does match them up some (with history) - term 2 of year 6 is really fun, it's like we are living with the Greeks & Romans. But my other two boys aren't nearly as matched up. Again with my eldest, we are reviewing things with the Book of Marvels, and learning other things we haven't officially "studied" yet. We just watched a History documentary on Napoleon. When the picture of St. Basil's Church came up my eldest immediately recognized it (I know that place!) from the Book of Marvels. I didn't have to draw all the lines for him, and I don't think I should.
Anyway, I don't think I'm hearing the same things others are. I do recommend Kern's talk on Five Paths to Great Writing.
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Haha - I've been working on learning Latin for years, and I chose a video course (Visual Latin) because it saves me time, but more importantly, I like its goal (reading Latin) and that it meshes with my favorite program, Lingua Latina.
Anyway, I bounce between kids. Audio books are just wonderful. I also have an independent 10yo who is a very good reader. I try to start with reading instruction for my 11yo and do a reading (or 2) with him. I broke his books into 4 readings a day, 2-3 with me, the others are audiobooks. I spend most of my time with him, due to his reading issues and also educating myself alongside him. My 7yo doesn't have a lot of work, 1-2 readings (some we do as a family because the older boys missed them) plus reading, math and copywork (which is low key, I'd rather have a couple well-formed words than a page of scribbles). I check in with my 10yo, he comes to narrate and do his math. Our schedule/routine is very much in flex right now.
Oh, I don't generally get stressed out. I don't know why. Some days I just have 'one of those days' and I'll need to take a walk or snuggle with DH to calm down, but I'm just not an excitable person.
It would take too much space to do all the kids, but I'll post my 10yo's schedule, which is almost plain-vanilla AO year 4. Our subjects are naturally spread out, because we have math, foreign languages, English and readings. We schedule 6 days a week because DH works 6 days a week. Oh, we do more Spanish (orally) as a group, but the older boys have written Spanish as well.
DAILY
Copywork (transitioning to commonplace book)
ANKI (flashcards for all languages)
MEP Math 4
Piano (Mrs. Stewart's Piano)
Drawing (supposed to alternate Drawing Textbook with map drawing, but we haven't been consistent so I may move this to morning time)
MONDAY
Latin - Henle, Visual Latin
Greek - Greek Hupogrammon (alphabet)
Grammar/Composition - Intermediate Language Lessons (trying this)
History - George Washington's World, occassionally Child's History of the World or Trial & Triumph
Literature - Kidnapped
TUESDAY
Dictation - Spelling Wisdom
Latin - Henle, reader
Spanish - The Fun Spanish
Geography - Minn of the Mississippi
History - George Washington's World
Science - Story Book of Science
WEDNESDAY
Latin - Henle, Visual Latin
Greek - Greek Hupogrammon (alphabet)
Grammar/Composition - Intermediate Language LessonsHistory - This Country of Ours
Literature - Kidnapped, Age of Fable
THURSDAY
Dictation - Spelling Wisdom
Latin - Visual Latin, reader
Spanish - The Fun Spanish
Geography - selected lessons from Home Geography by Long
History - George Washington's World
Science - Story Book of Science
FRIDAY
Latin - Henle, Visual Latin
Greek - Greek Hupogrammon (alphabet)
Grammar/Composition - Intermediate Language LessonsHistory - Abigail Adams (LOVE this book)
Literature - Kidnapped
Science - Story of Inventions
SATURDAY
Dictation - Spelling Wisdom
Latin - Henle, reader
Spanish - The Fun Spanish
Personal Finance - Money How to Make It, Spend It, and Keep Lots of It
Science - Madam How and Lady Why
Forgive any errors, I've been told if I want DH to make breakfast I have to go to the store now, so I can't proofread five times like I usually do. :D
ETA: My 10yo is good with languages, while my 11yo has to work more, so they do Latin, Greek and Spanish together. They also do the Money book and Madam How together.
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Sorry if I took your post the wrong way. :tongue_smilie: And I don't think you have to design your own system to teach the Circe way. Maybe I am wrong. I don't have the time to design a system, I don't even have summers with the lawn care biz. But I can pick the best thing for me and use it to seek wisdom & wonder. Planning from the ground up (no success though I've tried, I have too much doubt) is very different than taking a basically good plan and fitting it to your circumstance/child/family.
I am getting the feeling some of the experienced posters want more specific questions (or searching what they've already said). I understand that, but searching this board is frustrating (google search is better). And at some point the old links stopped working, so if you find a post linking an older post the link is likely broken.
I get frustrated as well on how to teach like 8 and others do. But I think I need to seek out that knowledge. I've thought of getting some of the great courses for myself, and exploring more podcasts and such. (I love podcasts.) Or do book discussions with other homeschool moms, and get additional perspectives.
My dream is to do the Circe apprenticeship course. If things go well at all this summer I'm going to attend starting next year.
I just don't think there are easy answers here. Pick one thing to do or not to do. Don't lose (or go and find asap) the sense of wonder.
One of the coolest quotes I read, and can't remember where, is "Do the next best thing."
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We have a smart bunch of mothers here. We need to pull together on this. Because I'm not seeing any leadership in this area from the "classical education experts." I have this strange feeling that the "experts" = us.
But part of the point is to STOP looking to the EXPERTS!!! They do not know YOUR child. So yes, you are the expert. Trust yourself!!!
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Also, I think what Tibbie said about educating the person and nurturing the heart is at the heart of it but how do you quantify it? How do you divide the line between parenting and schooling, it is so blurred as home educator.
I don't divide, really. I don't usually teach in the evening though (unless we missed a read-aloud). That's my relaxing time - I don't clean the house then either, KWIM. And I don't do any planning or work (house, homeschool, business) on Sundays. Actually, the no-plans-on-Sundays has been my best move all year. I love my Sundays - I can just be.
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I really appreciate all the helpful responses. I still am finding that I am confused. I am getting a feel that this whole idea involves being a very creative mom. I AM NOT. LOL. Don't take that comment too far. But, I see a lot of creativity in what people are posting. I would struggle with that, I think, at least where I am at in life right now. I have this image in my mind that you all are sitting around with cheerful, love to learn children reading a great story and all smiles. I want to rip my hair out when I try to read aloud to ALL the kids. I have to split them up or have one child watch the 2yo so I can read in quiet. It is tedious for me to just get math, grammar, spelling, etc., done where I have little energy to do the "fun" stuff that would encourage a love of learning.
I know I have rambled a bit, and I am still pondering things that have been said here and some posts that were linked. I just want that rest already! I know it is on me, alone, to find it and make it happen.
I think it's okay for you to ramble, LAmom. I want to (1) assure you that I am not very creative either. We read good books and narrate. I try to stick in Kern's "Should X have done Y?" questions if the time is right. I have them play outside a lot, I encourage them to draw and build.
(2) I do NOT teach my kids together in general. They have their own years, I rotate between them. Now, I am working on doing some more things together because it is good for us to bond and talk; also, it is good for the kids to work as a team. But Circe doesn't mean you have to have everyone doing the same subject / time period. And it doesn't mean they need to be different.
(3) It sounds like you want some more structure. I need that too. I'm just not the unschoolish sit-down-with-a-box-of-books type. I'm too scatter-brained. :P So I, personally, found structure in AO. Someone else just posted they used SCM. The question is, can you use the programs you are considering to inspire wonder, and to contemplate truth, goodness and beauty.
Can you encourage love of learning while you do math (or grammar, or spelling)? Play with the puppies, whether those puppies are numbers, words or letters. http://www.circeinstitute.org/2012/04/inspiring-children Have a plan, but don't be afraid to deviate. Our planned nature study focus was Amphibians. But I'm switching, we just set up a bird feeder so we'll be doing birds. And I'm using what I already have on my shelf.
You can start smaller, especially while you learn. Is something missing? Add it in. Is there something you are doing that is not the best? Drop it. Did you learn something or read something or do something beautiful or wonderous? Share it with your children.
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Another thing I wanted to mention is that the reason Circe people (and those that follow them) are vague about what to use and what a classical education looks like is because Circe is based on principles. They want you to take these principles and apply them to your family the way that it would work for your family. This means that it is going to look different for each and every family that follows these principles because we all have different children and different dynamics within our families. What resonates with me is going to look very different from what resonates with you, therefore, our days,our curriculum is going to look different.
Yes - it isn't about a book list. It is about you and your child. Are you pursueing the true, good and beautiful. Are you thinking and filling yourself with lovely things? I know it is hard - it literally turned my world upside down. And I didn't know what to do, just that I wanted something, but I didn't have it. I could feel it was missing. But keep looking. One of the books I am oh-so-slowly working through is "Leisure the Basis of Culture" and he NAILS our culture. We are all about ""doing"" something. Do this, do that, be "successful" in life. We need to do less and contemplate more.
Education is about forming a person (including yourself!). What kind of people do you want to form? Starting there, I knew I wanted kids that cared. I wanted them to be able to communicate well (within their ability). I wanted them to hold onto that sense of wonder. And I wanted them to be self-starters -- to go and find out if they didn't know, or if something needed done to go and do it.
Okay, I'll move to practical. First, I need to acknowledge my circumstances.
* I am working to get some of my writing published. DH and I just bought a lawn care business, so I am doing the paperwork and such for that. Together these mean I just don't have time to do a lot of planning. I'd love to immerse myself in books and have everyone reading challenging yet appropriate books about the middle ages, European geography and chemistry (or whatever). But I don't have time. I have to accept that.
* One of our goals is to spend the winters farther South, so we need to be portable. (So ebooks & PDFs help.)
* My eldest is likely dyslexic, and needs audio books. (I love librivox.)
* I can't just throw money at things.
* I need support and people who are in similar boats to talk to. DH is not a talker, so he doesn't even help much (other than to say that's fine, go ahead and do/buy that - lol).
Several of the above drew me to Ambleside Online. They have a forum now - I never liked email lists. There are a lot of ebooks and audio books. And I like CM's philosophy - I've been reading her original volumes and it resonates with me. So we jumped into AO late in the fall of 2012, partly just on faith. I knew the books were good overall so I trusted it. We had a good year. My then 10yo bloomed - he needed the literature, the stories! And he showed how good his comprehension was (despite the fact that he could hardly read at that time).
For skills, we want to play with things not dissect them. And I don't have time to piecemeal. So we use MEP for math. Grammar is my achillles heel, but I'm thinking a sentence a day (perhaps from KISS) and the Serl books. We do copywork (or commonplace book) and dictation. I'm going to try CM's word-playing with my youngest son, he can blend and knows the sounds, so we'll do our phonics lessons from Treadwell's reader. For Spanish we are doing videos, my older boys are using The Fun Spanish (sentence based) and I have Speaking Spanish that I need to get going on. Latin I am using more than one book because I'm a Latin nut. We chose Visual Latin because it has a reading approach but back it up with Henle because mastery is also important (and makes fun easier).
One thing I am (again) splurging on is Simply Charlotte Mason's organizer. You don't need to be CM to use it, btw. I love it because I don't get behind. If you miss a reading or a whole day, there is no chiding or shame when you have to manually bump things. It will be waiting for you on the next scheduled day. Now this means I'm only generally following AO's schedules, other than year 1 they are mostly regular or close to it. So I just have to match up a few stray history readings - not a big deal. Especially since the Circe thread and its fallout reminded me I don't have to make everything perfect.
I don't know if that helps, but I have to go. I'd post a schedule, but with trying to get the lawn business going we don't have one yet. We are routine people anyway.
Oh, I guess I'll note some things I change from AO. We do more memory work -- still the good, true & beautiful, not facts. I start Latin earlier and give it more time than many. We aren't following the Shakespeare or Plutarch rotations, we are doing our own. And the number one thing is I do not worry about the free reads. I think the historical fiction thing for many others is the free reads for me. They are fine, BUT I don't have kids that devour books. They'd rather be building forts all day. So I try to choose the best I can (a lot of good literature in those lists!), and enjoy them.
Have you read Cindy's posts at the ordo-amoris blog - especially her morning time series? Here are some of my favorite posts, I come back to them again and again. http://crossingthebrandywine.com/2013/10/these-are-a-few-of-my-favorite-things/ I think Cindy's blog is linked first. Okay, I really must go!
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No science? Not even nature study? Science doesn't have to be workbooky or even textbooky, but I think the method and the curiousity/observation factors are too good to miss.
Anyway, I think it is a good start, keep in mind not all kids are going to "catch" good spelling / grammar from reading lots of books. Some will need direct instruction. Also assuming the kids are *doing* things in their free time - not sitting passively. So the non-school hours could be just as (or more) important as the official school hours.
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Oh, I thought your ideas were wonderful too! (I hope this all makes sense, my kids are ""cleaning"" their room which means there is running & shrieking. :glare: ) I know that for me, sometimes I get hung up in the details, and I'll sit there and spin my wheels, doing nothing but trying to find the *perfect* solution. Actually I'm doing that with our memory work right now. :lol:
Now a question - I'm trying to decide if I should read Caldecott's Beauty in the Word or Clark & Jain's The Liberal Arts Tradition first? Since I'm set for podcasts & videos for a while.
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I wouldn't even worry about subjects, especially at those ages. Read a variety of good books (history, literature, science, nature, geography, fables), memorize things that are beautiful or needed (poems to your phone number), play with numbers (quantities, measuring, counting, comparing) and letters (aka reading), and do things (observe nature, cook, make messes & clean up, help others, put things in order, grow plants).
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I really like the Circe podcasts (and Pudewa and others) and I think I'll start buying some. Can y'all list some of your favorites? I'm thinking about this one http://www.circeinstitute.org/store/2012-conference-downloads/creation-imitation-and-analogy-paths-learning and/or Cindy's talk on boys to start with. After I get through the videos on teaching from a state of rest. :)
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He's talking about, at the gifted jr high/senior high level, that students should be reading 15 classic works per year - 3 in class, and those books have essay tests and papers, and 12 outside of class (two every 6 weeks, over a 36 week school year). The 12 outside-of-class books aren't tested or written about, but they are discussed at a deep, Bloom-Taxonomy level via Socratic questioning and discussion.
I'm not advocating that this is the best way to do it - just clarifying what it is he's suggesting in Classics in the Classroom, because it was referred to upthread.
Thank you! So that is kind-of like AO in volume. Hmmm, I need to figure out these discussions and such. I don't want to force the kids to do XYZ, but I do need to prepare better as a teacher.
I think it's good to teach them the tools or skills to create, such as writing, painting, putting together a play, shop or lab skills, etc, so that students are prepared when they become inspired or motivated.
This is my goal as well. To both schedule time for teaching the skills and to have the supplies available for spontaneous creation on the children's part.
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RIght, I'm rereading Classics in the Classroom (MCT) right now, and that is definitely what he advocates - 3 in class books, plus another 12 or so read outside of class and discussed one on one, no essays or term papers on those. So 15 total, but only 3 that you are digging into deeply and writing about. That seems completely doable . . .
Is this per term or quarter or year or?? Sorry if I missed it, I've looked at MCT but never jumped in.
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ARGH! I'm going to have to find a copy this summer. At least now I know to look for the older 10-volume set. One question - will these work as group read-alouds? Or as between term reading? I hesitate to add more reading to AO, and I don't want to drop that.
SCM, Ambleside or Milestones Academy?
in K-8 Curriculum Board
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I'm sorry but I can't find the lists. I *think* I mainly used copy & paste, I compared both the books used as well as the average weekly workload. I love to tweak, but I ran out of time. So I content myself with designing our group time while the kids do their separate AO years. (And that's still a lot - artist, composer, Shakespeare, drawing/painting, memory work, various drills/skills, paper sloyd & crafts, lots of literature, Bible, nature study, other living books I want to throw in... I'm content that I've fed both the 'get er done' side and the tweaking, creative side of myself.)