Question about science order?

[LuvingLife]

Unfortunately I am a little behind in science, for the past two years my biology curriculum have been terrible and now I am behind a year in science so I have to cram two sciences in one year or I won't complete them on time. This year I have to do biology and chemistry together for the ACT, and next year I am unsure of which one I need to do. I want to do physics or adv. biology because I want to major in nursing which is pretty heavy on bio and chem. But I also need to make sure I have the proper sciences for the ACT so I can get the highest ACT score possible so I can be awarded scholarships. I am going to be using Apologia because I like the way it explains things and how thorough it is, I am just really confused about the order it should be in.

 

Any advice is greatly appreciated!:bigear:

[Elizabeth in WA]

I had my older boys take the ACT science last year, end of 7th and 9th grades. The only high school level science they had had was Biology. Oldest made a 30 on science, younger, a 28. They both felt that the ACT tested reading comprehension in the sciences and graph reading more than any specific knowledge. So, for the ACT, reading things like Scientific American might go further to improve your score than actual school subjects.

 

All this to say: I would focus more on admissions requirements and recommendations for programs you are looking at than ACT in choosing sciences.

[FaithManor]

The ACT really doesn't test specific science knowledge. It tests your ability to read and comprehend short passages of scientific reading or your ability to logically determine specific information from a variety of data representations - charts, graphs, etc. and do it in a fairly short period of time. It has been our experience that students with high reading comprehension/read quickly and strong familiarity with graphs through their math program, do just fine in the science section. Usually the main problem with this section is running out of time.

 

The AP is different. AP's are subject materials designed to test your knowledge of college freshman/introductory level subject material. These are very subject/skill specific. If you want to take the AP biology exam you will need a very comprehensive AP/college text on biology - Campbell's Exploring Life, etc. and Anatomy and Physiology - again, AP quality text, not a general text - in order to score a 4 or 5 on that exam.

 

Same for Chemistry...let me caution you...Apologia chemistry is high school/ basic chemistry and it is comprehensive of that material. But, it is not specifically for AP study. If you take Apologia chemistry, advanced chemistry, and you study from a secondary source and you are comfortable with doing the math quickly - the AP chem exam is not forgiving in the time department - then you should be okay. But, if you only do one book or both books but do not also study from a college text or other approved AP book so that you can have extra applied math work so you become fairly fast at balancing equations, running conversions, stoichiometry, etc. you will not likely get a good score. I am not trying to scare you. I just want you to be very aware. The AP chem exam is intensive. I personally believe that it is much worse than the biology or physics exam and by constrast with the humanities - world history being not all that challenging (my 8th grader has aced five practice exams from the AP site and the Princeton practice book) - well, you need to be very well prepared.

 

It's not that you can't use Apologia to prepare you for the AP's...he does an excellent job of teaching the basics and he's very interesting which helps with retention; you need to add to his courses in order to cover all of the material on the AP plus get enough math practice to become fast at it. His courses are for mastery, but not FAST mastery. I hope that makes sense to you.

 

DD used Apologia all the way through, but we added to it. She is a science geek just like the rest of us and she read from my college physics books and dh's college chem books in addition to the Apologia. She is an absolute natural and that helped as well. She got a 5 on the AP chem. But, I would consider her to a bit of anamoly because she really didn't do much extra practice. I think most students need to over-prepare, complete the Princeton Review AP Chem practice book, and work on their speed...unfortunately, there isn't enough extra practice in the Apologia books for the student to work on speed. It wasn't one of the things the author was particularly worried about.

 

Again, I like Apologia and my kids are all going to use his chemistry and physics materials. But, if they are going to take the AP's...we'll add to their work from other sources for chemistry. As for biology, we've already made the move to Campbell's because both my current 9th grader and my rising 9th grader will need to take the AP biology exam which is heavy in genetics and bio-chem and Apologia biology is light in that area...more in line with 9th grade biology when I took it in high school or college 100 level biology back in the early to mid-1990's. Things change!

 

As for the math progression...you need algebra 1 for Apologia chemistry, algebra 2 or at least be taking algebra 2 concurrently with Apologia Advanced Chemistry, take Pre-Calculus concurrent with Physics, and be in Calc 1 with Advanced Physics so that you are covering the calculus when you need it. Trigonometry alone won't prepare you for the 2nd physics book, but it can be accomplished concurrent with calculus 1 and especially if you get a couple of chapters of calc under your belt before beginning advanced physics. Unless of course, math is just an easy subject and you an learn the calc directly from Dr. Wile as it pops up. Some people can do this. I find that it's okay for natural born mathematicians who are instinctive. For those who need a fair amount of instruction, don't rely on Dr. Wile....he is a true science teacher, but a bit of a lousy math teacher....many of his math explanations are not complete!

 

Faith

[LuvingLife]

The ACT really doesn't test specific science knowledge. It tests your ability to read and comprehend short passages of scientific reading or your ability to logically determine specific information from a variety of data representations - charts, graphs, etc. and do it in a fairly short period of time. It has been our experience that students with high reading comprehension/read quickly and strong familiarity with graphs through their math program, do just fine in the science section. Usually the main problem with this section is running out of time.

 

The AP is different. AP's are subject materials designed to test your knowledge of college freshman/introductory level subject material. These are very subject/skill specific. If you want to take the AP biology exam you will need a very comprehensive AP/college text on biology - Campbell's Exploring Life, etc. and Anatomy and Physiology - again, AP quality text, not a general text - in order to score a 4 or 5 on that exam.

 

Same for Chemistry...let me caution you...Apologia chemistry is high school/ basic chemistry and it is comprehensive of that material. But, it is not specifically for AP study. If you take Apologia chemistry, advanced chemistry, and you study from a secondary source and you are comfortable with doing the math quickly - the AP chem exam is not forgiving in the time department - then you should be okay. But, if you only do one book or both books but do not also study from a college text or other approved AP book so that you can have extra applied math work so you become fairly fast at balancing equations, running conversions, stoichiometry, etc. you will not likely get a good score. I am not trying to scare you. I just want you to be very aware. The AP chem exam is intensive. I personally believe that it is much worse than the biology or physics exam and by constrast with the humanities - world history being not all that challenging (my 8th grader has aced five practice exams from the AP site and the Princeton practice book) - well, you need to be very well prepared.

 

It's not that you can't use Apologia to prepare you for the AP's...he does an excellent job of teaching the basics and he's very interesting which helps with retention; you need to add to his courses in order to cover all of the material on the AP plus get enough math practice to become fast at it. His courses are for mastery, but not FAST mastery. I hope that makes sense to you.

 

DD used Apologia all the way through, but we added to it. She is a science geek just like the rest of us and she read from my college physics books and dh's college chem books in addition to the Apologia. She is an absolute natural and that helped as well. She got a 5 on the AP chem. But, I would consider her to a bit of anamoly because she really didn't do much extra practice. I think most students need to over-prepare, complete the Princeton Review AP Chem practice book, and work on their speed...unfortunately, there isn't enough extra practice in the Apologia books for the student to work on speed. It wasn't one of the things the author was particularly worried about.

 

Again, I like Apologia and my kids are all going to use his chemistry and physics materials. But, if they are going to take the AP's...we'll add to their work from other sources for chemistry. As for biology, we've already made the move to Campbell's because both my current 9th grader and my rising 9th grader will need to take the AP biology exam which is heavy in genetics and bio-chem and Apologia biology is light in that area...more in line with 9th grade biology when I took it in high school or college 100 level biology back in the early to mid-1990's. Things change!

 

As for the math progression...you need algebra 1 for Apologia chemistry, algebra 2 or at least be taking algebra 2 concurrently with Apologia Advanced Chemistry, take Pre-Calculus concurrent with Physics, and be in Calc 1 with Advanced Physics so that you are covering the calculus when you need it. Trigonometry alone won't prepare you for the 2nd physics book, but it can be accomplished concurrent with calculus 1 and especially if you get a couple of chapters of calc under your belt before beginning advanced physics. Unless of course, math is just an easy subject and you an learn the calc directly from Dr. Wile as it pops up. Some people can do this. I find that it's okay for natural born mathematicians who are instinctive. For those who need a fair amount of instruction, don't rely on Dr. Wile....he is a true science teacher, but a bit of a lousy math teacher....many of his math explanations are not complete!

 

Faith

 

I am glad that the ACT isn't so science heavy? I don't know how to put it, but about Campbell's Biology, do you think I can do both Apologia and then Campbells? I won't be able to go up to Calculus in high school, probably pre-calc only because of the way my math order is and I am only required to have 4 years of math, (including algebra 1, geometry, and algebra 2). I can add any other math I would like after I have the required three courses. I also need 3-4years of science, (biology, chemistry, and physics, adv biology etc.)

 

Do you happen to know of any good Chemistry courses that have easy to follow explanations since I am teaching myself?

 

Thank you!:bigear:

[emubird]

I am glad that the ACT isn't so science heavy? I don't know how to put it, but about Campbell's Biology, do you think I can do both Apologia and then Campbells?

 

 

If you do that in one year, that'll be most of what you do. Or did you plan to do that over 2 years?

 

You may have had a dismal biology curriculum over the past years, but it might be enough to count for a first year, early high school bio course. High schools don't really do all that much in the first year bio course. Even the second year advanced (AP) bio may not really cover a full year major's course at college.

 

College chemistry is the course that throws a lot of bio majors (and makes them drop out of the bio major). If have limited time, you might want to get a solid chemistry into your high school line up rather than another year of biology. If you major in bio, you'll likely need to do chem your freshman year, while you're still adjusting to college. It would be really nice to have a head start on that so you're not one of the many bio majors who have to drop out of bio because they couldn't get through chemistry their first year.

 

If you're interested in using a science this year to improve your ACT score, pick a curriculum/text that does a lot of interpretation of graphs and whatnot. It doesn't matter what science it is.

 

Or, better yet, just get a few ACT prep books and do a lot of science tests.

 

In any case, I wouldn't worry too much about the science portion of the ACT. Yes, if you do really bad, it can bring down your overall score, but the colleges we were in contact with were mostly concerned with the verbal and math scores. I think they realize the science portion is a little funky -- some kids who are absolute whizzes at science don't do all that well on the science portion, and some kids who do really well at it on the ACT can't do science to save their lives. (The same criticism could be levied against the rest of the ACT/SAT, but it seems particularly pronounced for the ACT science test.)

 

You also might want to consider that it might be more beneficial to be sure you have as much math as you can reasonably do in the amount of time remaining. It might be better to focus on getting the best grounding you can manage in math rather than cramming in more science.

 

Also, you might consider whether doing 2 sciences in one year might result in you learning very little of either.

 

Just as a comparison, my daughter (who's about your age) started both 1st year chem and 2nd yr biology last fall. She got through the chemistry, but didn't finish the biology. She'll be getting through the rest of the biology this year while she does the 2nd yr of chemistry. So two sciences worked, but only because we knew she might have to spread it out over 2 years. If we hadn't left that as an option, it would have been a crazy year.

[ereks mom]

I think if I were you, I would move on from Biology. You probably learned more than you realize over the past two years, and a lot of basic biology is probably not going to do much for you in nursing school or in your future career as a labor & delivery nurse anyway. By that I mean that plants, animals, and ecology is good stuff, but as long as you have a good foundation in cells and a basic understanding of genetics and DNA, you should be okay going into a medical profession.

 

From here on out, I would concentrate on human anatomy & physiology and chemistry/advanced chemistry. Physics is good, but since you're not going into engineering, you can probably do fine without it, unless your nursing school requires it. That said, you should definitely look into the requirements of your nursing school and plan your curriculum around that.

Edited September 9, 2011 by ereks mom

[FaithManor]

I think if I were you, I would move on from Biology. You probably learned more than you realize over the past two years, and a lot of basic biology is probably not going to do much for you in nursing school or in your future career as a labor & delivery nurse anyway. By that I mean that plants, animals, and ecology is good stuff, but as long as you have a good foundation in cells and a basic understanding of genetics and DNA, you should be okay going into a medical profession.

 

From here on out, I would concentrate on human anatomy & physiology and chemistry/advanced chemistry. Physics is good, but since you're not going into engineering, you can probably do fine without it, unless your nursing school requires it. That said, you should definitely look into the requirements of your nursing school and plan your curriculum around that.

 

 

I second checking out the requirements or recommendations where you hope to attend.

 

When dd was considering nursing at Cedarville University (we discussed Cedarville in your thread on the college board), their HIGHLY recommended high school plan was math through pre-calc, biology, chemistry, advanced chemistry, and physics. They preferred to see a year of physics over A & P because of the logic it teaches and because they felt that most high school A & P programs or advanced biology classes were sub-par and did very little to prepare the student for their program. If the student did not have physics in high school, they had to take the first semester of freshman college physics as part of the pre-requisites to applying to the college of nursing. But, the state schools she applied to were just fine with advanced biology/ A & P over physics. Across the board, everyone was very interested in seeing two years of chemistry on the transcript and THAT IS IMPORTANT! Chem is challenging and organic chem, can be extra tough if you haven't gotten comfortable with basic chem. The best nursing programs require a minimum of 80%/B in organic chem, A & P, microbiology, pathophysiology, pharmacology, etc. and at the college level, these are chemistry based subjects...just not as intensive as would be encountered in a chemistry major.

 

If you are still studying botany, zoology, ecology, and the like as part of your biology course, you need to move on...get comfortable with the bio-chem and genetics portion. This is especially true if you are not worried about taking the biology AP.

 

Faith

[LuvingLife]

If you do that in one year, that'll be most of what you do. Or did you plan to do that over 2 years?

 

You may have had a dismal biology curriculum over the past years, but it might be enough to count for a first year, early high school bio course. High schools don't really do all that much in the first year bio course. Even the second year advanced (AP) bio may not really cover a full year major's course at college.

 

College chemistry is the course that throws a lot of bio majors (and makes them drop out of the bio major). If have limited time, you might want to get a solid chemistry into your high school line up rather than another year of biology. If you major in bio, you'll likely need to do chem your freshman year, while you're still adjusting to college. It would be really nice to have a head start on that so you're not one of the many bio majors who have to drop out of bio because they couldn't get through chemistry their first year.

 

If you're interested in using a science this year to improve your ACT score, pick a curriculum/text that does a lot of interpretation of graphs and whatnot. It doesn't matter what science it is.

 

Or, better yet, just get a few ACT prep books and do a lot of science tests.

 

In any case, I wouldn't worry too much about the science portion of the ACT. Yes, if you do really bad, it can bring down your overall score, but the colleges we were in contact with were mostly concerned with the verbal and math scores. I think they realize the science portion is a little funky -- some kids who are absolute whizzes at science don't do all that well on the science portion, and some kids who do really well at it on the ACT can't do science to save their lives. (The same criticism could be levied against the rest of the ACT/SAT, but it seems particularly pronounced for the ACT science test.)

 

You also might want to consider that it might be more beneficial to be sure you have as much math as you can reasonably do in the amount of time remaining. It might be better to focus on getting the best grounding you can manage in math rather than cramming in more science.

 

Also, you might consider whether doing 2 sciences in one year might result in you learning very little of either.

 

Just as a comparison, my daughter (who's about your age) started both 1st year chem and 2nd yr biology last fall. She got through the chemistry, but didn't finish the biology. She'll be getting through the rest of the biology this year while she does the 2nd yr of chemistry. So two sciences worked, but only because we knew she might have to spread it out over 2 years. If we hadn't left that as an option, it would have been a crazy year.

 

Ok, I will try moving on from biology and go onto chemistry and second year biology this year and spread it out over 2 years, or chemistry and adv chem, and see how it all works out. I am definitely going to be doing lots of ACT prep to take the test in the spring and hope all goes well.

 

Thank you so much!

[LuvingLife]

I think if I were you, I would move on from Biology. You probably learned more than you realize over the past two years, and a lot of basic biology is probably not going to do much for you in nursing school or in your future career as a labor & delivery nurse anyway. By that I mean that plants, animals, and ecology is good stuff, but as long as you have a good foundation in cells and a basic understanding of genetics and DNA, you should be okay going into a medical profession.

 

From here on out, I would concentrate on human anatomy & physiology and chemistry/advanced chemistry. Physics is good, but since you're not going into engineering, you can probably do fine without it, unless your nursing school requires it. That said, you should definitely look into the requirements of your nursing school and plan your curriculum around that.

 

I actually have a pretty good foundation in genetics, DNA and cells, not top notch but pretty good, and most of my top school choices don't really require physics, it's optional and they would like to see it, but it isn't the end of the world if I don't have it. They would like to see, biology, chemistry, and adv. chemistry, and anatomy and physiology. So I don't think I have to worry about physics as a requirement, and it isn't required for my high school graduation.

 

Thank you for helping me plan my schedule to better prepare me for college.

 

I second checking out the requirements or recommendations where you hope to attend.

 

When dd was considering nursing at Cedarville University (we discussed Cedarville in your thread on the college board), their HIGHLY recommended high school plan was math through pre-calc, biology, chemistry, advanced chemistry, and physics. They preferred to see a year of physics over A & P because of the logic it teaches and because they felt that most high school A & P programs or advanced biology classes were sub-par and did very little to prepare the student for their program. If the student did not have physics in high school, they had to take the first semester of freshman college physics as part of the pre-requisites to applying to the college of nursing. But, the state schools she applied to were just fine with advanced biology/ A & P over physics. Across the board, everyone was very interested in seeing two years of chemistry on the transcript and THAT IS IMPORTANT! Chem is challenging and organic chem, can be extra tough if you haven't gotten comfortable with basic chem. The best nursing programs require a minimum of 80%/B in organic chem, A & P, microbiology, pathophysiology, pharmacology, etc. and at the college level, these are chemistry based subjects...just not as intensive as would be encountered in a chemistry major.

 

If you are still studying botany, zoology, ecology, and the like as part of your biology course, you need to move on...get comfortable with the bio-chem and genetics portion. This is especially true if you are not worried about taking the biology AP.

 

Faith

 

Wow I had no idea that all of this was required, I will be moving on to more gentics, DNA, and cells and then do two years of chemistry. Especially because nursing requires organic chem, and I know that this can be quite challenging like you said! I know I can do this, and I am really glad that you all have helped me plan my high school schedule better.

 

(Does anyone happen to know where I can get a good chemistry course for the next two years? One that is more for those that teach yourself and isn't expensive?)

[pfamilygal]

I'm an ER RN.

 

In high school I took Physical Science, Biology 1 & 2, AP Biology and Chemistry 1.

 

In college I took 1 semester of Biology, 1 semester of Chemistry, 2 semesters of A & P, 1 semester of Microbiology, 1 semester of Nutrition (much harder than you'd think), and 1 semester of Human Growth and Development.

[LuvingLife]

I'm an ER RN.

 

In high school I took Physical Science, Biology 1 & 2, AP Biology and Chemistry 1.

 

In college I took 1 semester of Biology, 1 semester of Chemistry, 2 semesters of A & P, 1 semester of Microbiology, 1 semester of Nutrition (much harder than you'd think), and 1 semester of Human Growth and Development.

 

 

Wow! That's quite the science load lol! And I compared what you took in college to the colleges that I am going to apply to and they are very similar if not exactly alike. Did these course help prepare you for the college level science that you had to take?

 

(And may I say, you must have a strong stomach to work in the ER! I cannot work in the ER, I have a good stomach, but after watching a lot of hospital shows, there is no way I can do that!:D)

[pfamilygal]

Yes, I felt prepared. I didn't find college science to be too difficult.

[LuvingLife]

Yes, I felt prepared. I didn't find college science to be too difficult.

 

That's really good, I am glad it worked well for you, hopefully it will work well for me too! Thank you.