Staring in the Middle

[momofCM]

We have been homeschooling for many years and now that dd will be in the 8th grade, we've been thinking a lot about high school.

 

Because we didn't start the classical cycle in the first grade, dd will be studying 'modern' history in 9th grade. After reading through TWM (again!) I learned that she should read the great books associated with that time. That leaves her with ancients, Middle Ages, and Late Renaissance for the other 3 years. For some reason that sounds strange to me.

 

Do you recommend starting with the Ancients again in 9th or stick with TWM suggestion. Has anyone done it this way?

 

Thanks!

[Aquinas Academy]

:lurk5:I'm wondering about this myself. DD13 joined into DD14's history cycle, so she's two years "off". If she continues with her current cycle she'll do early modern in 9th grade. I'm not sure if she should keep going with this cycle or do ancients again in 9th.

[Lori D.]

Be prepared to receive a variety of answers to this question! ;)

Here are past threads with great conversation on this topic:

 

Out of order history/lit?

Mixing up the order of classic books chronologically? Disastrous??

High school history/lit progression: Modern in 12th grade seems too late

Would you do ancients in 12th or 9th grade?

4 year history rotation or World History, Am. History, Gov't?

When kids want to do history out of order -- this is based on elementary/middle school aged students, but there are some excellent thoughts on the topic about half to 2/3rds of the way through the thread

Great Books question -- wonderful thread in which many WTMers share *how* they "do The Great Books", with links to further threads with even more detailed descriptions of ideas of "how to do" Great Books with high schoolers

the "motherlode" post linking to many past threads on various aspects of the subject of The Great Books

Another Great Books question: where to start? -- raises the question of which is easier to start with: modern, medieval, or ancient lit.?

 

And these past threads might get the ball rolling as you think through whether you want to do ancient or modern literature in 9th grade:

Do I have to cover ancient literature?

Great Books study for ninth grade? -- ancients

Great Books for early modern/modern

Modern History and Lit for an older 9th grader

 

 

 

:) Just my opinion, but I think it really depends on:

 

- YOUR goals for history and literature in the high school years.

 

(To follow a traditional classical model?)

 

(Planning any outsourced classes, extracurricular activities, or student working? -- This can really eat into your ability to follow WTM or do more history than state requirements.)

 

(To complete state requirements for high school graduation? -- In which case, you would need to complete 1-2 credits (depending on the state) of American History at some point -- it looks like you are in CA, and from what I can tell your requirements are: 3 courses in social studies, including 1. US history 2. world history; 3. Gov't/Civics and Economics -- each 1 semester; having to do a year of US History AND a year of Gov't/Econ will make getting in a 4-year WTM history cycle tricky...)

 

 

- Your DD's post-high school educational and career interests.

 

(Is she headed towards an arts or humanities field? Then you probably do want to stick close to a WTM classical model for history and literature -- matching them up together, and doing them in chronological order, and doing as much as possible -- even possibly adding in an additional history course (say, a year of American History) in there so one year you do 2 credits worth of history.)

 

(OR, is she interested or headed towards a science/math field? Then perhaps you prefer to make sure you hit the highlights of history, and cover the works of literature on your list that are most important/of interest to you and DD, regards of matching up with history.)

 

 

- Your DD's history/literature interests.

 

(IMO, while it shouldn't be the ONLY factor in your decision, there's a lot to be said for student interest buy-in for getting the most out of learning; if your DD has no interest or connection with ancient cultures, or would absolutely HATE the the male warriors and battling of the ancient epics right now -- but would really dig into the romanticism/gothic works of the 18th century (Jane Austen, the Brontes, Poe, Stevenson, Dickens, etc.) -- then she's far more apt to really learn how to analyze literature and make connections between the authors and their historical times by reading works that spark her interests...

 

(If, on the other hand, it doesn't matter to her (lack of strong interest), then go with the history cycle in the way that best works for YOU.)

 

 

 

Again, this is just my opinion (and we are not strict WTM classical homeschoolers), but I would do the history and literature in the order YOU and your DD want to and in the way it would make the most sense and stick with you. A few thoughts to keep in mind as you decide:

 

1. No one can cover ALL of history -- too many cultures, key people, key events, etc., so we all have "gaps" -- we just choose where to have the gaps. (We choose by which history programs we use, or which Great Books to read, and which to pass by.)

 

2. Usually by high school, students are smart enough to understand the overall "time line" context of the time period you're studying -- so doing history out of chronological order is also a possibility. (This is where I am not a strict WTM classical homeschooler who says you can't fully understand the history or literature without having studied what came before chronologically; in my opinion, you can, as long as you read some background info to give you a framework.)

 

3. As you plan your history/literature for the 4 years of high school, bear in mind that it is easier to get in what you want in 9th and 10th grades; it gets harder and harder to work in extras and electives in grades 11 and 12:

- must complete required credits (high school graduation requirements AND college entrance requirements)

- students develop own interests and you want to have time to support those things that are leading towards potential career (ex: we had to drop the WTM history this year (it would have counted as an extra elective, not needed as a required history credit) in order to make time for DSs time to do Media Arts credits, as that is the field both of them are heading towards)

- students have less time for extra academics: learning to drive; working part time; involved in more extracurriculars, volunteer time or internships; outsourced classes; dual enrollment at community college (the other reason for us this year that WTM history "bit the dust" -- extracurriculars that really developed leadership, public speaking, and other life skills, coupled with a dual enrollment class)

 

 

In case it is of any help, here is our history cycle:

- 4-year history cycle in the elementary years that took 6 years, due to following "bunny trails" of interest to our DSs. - - grades 7/8, a year off from the history cycle to do a year of world culture/geography and comparative religions -- a wonderful choice for us as it gave them GREAT exposure to non-western cultures and a variety of worldviews as foundation for discussion of the history and literature we've since done in high school.

- choosing time periods to study for high school (ended up being ancient world; 20th century world; American history; a smidgeon of Medieval to Enlightenment world history)

 

Because they had the 6 years of chronological history earlier, and I knew there was a good chance we were only going to get through 3 years of history (and 1 year is required to be Amer. History) in the high school years, I let DSs pick which time period to study in high school, *mostly* matching up the literature to the history, but also including some works "out of order" when it was a work that was critical to me for us to include.

 

 

BEST of luck, whatever you decide! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited July 2, 2011 by Lori D.
added info; added link

[Aquinas Academy]

Wow! Lori, that post is so helpful! I've got to go, but will be coming back later to read and ponder. :)

[momofCM]

Thank you so very much for all the information! It is much appreciated!

 

We, too, devoted a full year on world geography, studying different cultures and religions.;)

 

I already know (unless dd, and ds too for that matter, has a serious 'makeover') now that both my kids will go into the science field. Your opinion gives me a lot of food for thought. Thanks! I never looked at it that way, but it makes total sense to focus more on what they are planning to study.

 

Thank you!

[Lori D.]

I never looked at it that way, but it makes total sense to focus more on what they are planning to study.

 

 

And in NO way am I trying to encourage you to chuck the WTM's classical education model -- you CAN pursue science/math AND a classical education that involves The Great Books. Indeed, up until the rise of the public school system in the US in the 1900s, the two ideas have always been interlinked!

 

Try a tag search of "Nan's words of wisdom" for some great thoughts from Nan in Mass, who has followed the WTM with history and literature, for her 3 DSs who are all heading into/already pursuing science/engineering fields. Some good responses on how people do the WTM in high school in the thread Does anyone do high school history/lit ala WTM/WEM, but also, in my post in that thread I linked a number of past threads, many specifically with explanations by Nan in Mass on how she does WTM with science/engineering-based DC. These might also be of help in doing WTM history/lit. with STEM (science-technology-engineering-math)-oriented students:

 

Anyone doing history the WTM-purist way for high school

How many of you use WTM for highschool... looking at their history and great books

Musings about the future and the WTM approach for high school

 

 

:) Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited July 2, 2011 by Lori D.
added info and links

[Lori D.]

PS -- and here is what the WTM author herself has to say about what to do when you hit high school and you had "started in the middle" so your history cycle is not at ancients for 9th grade -- she suggests a number of different options! :)