hopskipjump
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Posts posted by hopskipjump
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As I have noted on here many times, the parallels between math and a weird religious cult are pretty extraordinary.
Hmmm. 🤔 okay then? Wouldn’t have connected a kindhearted “welcome aboard†email to a religious cult...
I’m going to choose to not look at her new department quite that way. 👠:)
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and he just announced that he is leaving his position at the end of this year AND not going elsewhere (he's changed careers entirely).
I'm so sorry - that's rough. Hopefully he can give your dd his best suggestion for the best fit teacher - it seems like the music world is pretty small and well-connected to each other.
Music is ridiculously expensive to study through the high school years at this level - instruments, travel, lessons, summer festivals. Getting her into college with solid scholarships and away from our household budget was definitely a net gain financially! Which sounds crazy, but isn't.Best of luck, break a leg, and blessings to your young people. When people roll their eyes and ask how will she support herself as a musician/why did you let her go to college for music I say two things: it's who she is and she can't not do it, and that music is more important than ever in this conflict-filled world.
It's honestly so nice to have some others understand the pain dd went through when the professor gave her the news. We're big believers in "What's meant to be..." but, still. OUCH!
I'm laughing at your comment about getting music kids into college and it winding up cheaper!! That's how we felt when DD1-the-athlete went to college! I was like, "Wow! We don't have to pay for her travel anymore! Someone else does that!" and "We don't have to pay for her uniforms anymore! Someone else does that!!" "No more monthly fees!" Woot!! :hurray:
And - too true about the music being more important than ever. Amen to that.
DD has plans "other" than being a musician. She simply wants to continue focusing on her instrument because her other interests don't necessarily "need" a degree. So, she's hoping to blend them all into an entrepreneurial lifestyle throughout school and beyond.
She considered music ed, but reallyreallyreallyreally doesn't want to have to learn other instruments (she plays a string, a woodwind, and brass instruments already... so I'm not sure why she's so inflexible about this. But there it is.)
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What wonderful news!
I have a good friend who often says, "It's an asking world." I have a difficult time remembering that and putting it into practice.
This is so true!!
It's pretty cute - she's received congratulatory notes from a couple of the professors already! lol They are *really* excited to have new blood joining their ranks! Hopefully the students will be as welcoming (she knows not-a-one at this point). :laugh
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My kids are taking Apologia Chemistry through a local class. The only "intentions' for this was to give them a somewhat solid footing for AP Chem next year.
Their teacher insists that the kids can take the CLEP after Apologia Chemistry (they're using the second-edition Apologia Chemistry book - not the newer one, and NOT the Advanced Chemistry book).
This seems like nonsense to me, but I've ordered the prep materials anyway, so we can look it over and hopefully discover that he is correct!
Has anyone's student(s) taken the CLEP after using Apologia Chemistry? Was it successful?
(neither of them are considering a college major that will *require* Chemistry. They just have to take the 4-8 hours of any Lab Science, and if they pass a CLEP, that will work!)
(annnd, if this is possible, I'm re-thinking ds's need to take AP Chem next year. Maybe he should do AP Physics instead? AAAAAHHHHH!)
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PLEASE DON'T QUOTE. I might take this down later. :) Thank you! ♥
I'd posted a while back that dd1 wanted to change majors (she's at the end of her sophomore year now, and her school requires that she "Declares" a final major by the end of this semester).
You guys gave some GREAT feedback for us to chew on and she decided it was too risky and would remain her original major, with a math minor.
It ate at her. Kept her up at night. So.
She made an appointment with her academic advisor (we'd made up a full four-year plan with everything spelled out). The academic advisor explained more about the mathematics department at this university (it's tiny) and dd found out that the math department basically schedules in classes based upon whoever "needs" whichever classes each semester. Those classes aren't even always entered into the "everything" course wizard database, because they just hand-enter in those classes for the students. (keeps the schedule from getting so cluttered, I'm sure, with math classes that only a handful of kids are going to take)
She had a meeting with the mathematics department head, and he put her completely at ease. He explained that if a student needs a class, he will teach a class of one if it's necessary in order for the student's credit-hours to align properly. The classes are often 3-5 kids in the upper-levels of math ... which ... I cannot explain how good this is... is PERFECT for dd. She will absolutely excel in a situation like this. Same people, same professors, same classmates... it's perfect. She has anxiety approaching professors for help or questions when she's in a large class - but in a small class where she'll feel like she knows the prof? Easy peasy.
They looked over her schedule. He told her which classes he's already teaching for the next 4 semesters (that aren't shown as "available" on the schedule) and they penciled in everything and she has zero shortages now! :hurray: He said if there's a particular class she's REALLY interested in, to let him know and he'll email the other students and see if they want to make another section for that particular class. She can also choose to do an Internship or Independent Study with any of the professors there.
This school is heavy on the pre-med/health/environmental/biological sciences side of things. So it's not surprising how small the math department is. However, he gave her data regarding previous graduates (there are only 2 seniors in the program right now! :lol: ) and their results were solid (good jobs straight out of graduation and/or continuing education).
So. She changed majors. :svengo: At the end of her sophomore year. She hasn't been this happy/relieved about her major-decision - EVER. She's always been on the fence about it, but just couldn't think "what else" she wanted to do. This. This is what she wants to do. She was looking toward the next two years with a bit of fear and loathing. Now - she's excited for the challenges ahead.
She's also registering to be a Math tutor starting next semester.
So I'm a VERY happy and proud mama. This is what we hope for - for the kids to take the reigns of their own lives and make big-life decisions. This kid wasn't ready for that when she was a senior in high school and needed a LOT of hand-holding. It's such a beautiful thing to see her fully coming into her own at 19. :)
I'm SO glad she took it into her own hands and pursued the information. (and a little annoyed at the school for having such poor information for US to evaluate on our own... :glare: But she's learned a lesson there too! Never take "no" for an answer if it's something you care about. Go in and talk to the officials about it and get the "real story")
Anyway. Just wanted to update, thank y'all for the great information, as always!
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THANK YOU GUYS!!!! :grouphug:
A bit more info:
While dd hasn't traveled to universities to make official visits, she has met several professors when they have been here, locally, for master classes. Or at competitions. Or when she's been at a summer music festival/workshop and has had lessons and master classes with those individuals while there for weeks at a time.
So, the visits will be brand-new, but she will be visiting *some* familiar faces and wants to take a lesson with those familiar faces 'in their own territory" so to speak.
How do you ask how much they charge for a lesson? Do you just come out and ask while setting up the time for the lesson? Hi Professor so-and-so, I would like a private lesson with you when I'm there visiting the school... btw - how expensive is this gonna be? :lol:
DS has had a couple of lessons with university professors and they haven't charged him anything (we didn't ask in advance... I just sent him in with $$ and when he asked at the end of the lesson, they waived him off...)
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Yes to sample lessons and yes to sitting in on the orchestra (if applicable) and playing along, even if the potential student sits in the back. Yes to master classes (even if just observing). Sit it on gen ed classes too if at all possible. Yes to attending concerts too.
Did you set these sitting-in classes through the professor or through general admissions/visitors? I know we'd set up the lesson through the professor/studio ourselves - just unsure who to ask about sitting in on classes.
DD met a prof her sophomore or junior year of high school and spent a lot of time at the school and met students and really connected. That prof left that school (and didn't go to another one) after dd was accepted to the school, the school of music, the honors program, and had been offered a scholarship. We were devastated.
THIS is what has just happened. DD had a far-and-away first choice school. It's nearby. She has spent half her life there for the past 3 years (the professor allows her to sit in on master classes, she participates in certain aspects of some classes). She's already working on her essay for the honors program. She has been taking lessons with the professor since fall... and he just announced that he is leaving his position at the end of this year AND not going elsewhere (he's changed careers entirely).
It was quite the blow, to say the least. The kind that sucks the air out of the room. *sigh*
So. We're kind of flailing. They'll hire a new prof next year, but if he's as good/experienced a hire as they are expecting, there's a chance he'll have his "own" seniors who want to apply to this program and dd will have a different, unexpected type of competition for scholarships ---- and he'll have his own favorites, while dd will be the favorite of the "previous lion king," so to speak. We just have no idea how it will play out. :/ Sucks.
My dd took a ton of college credits w/ her too, but as a mus ed major, never, ever had less than 18 credits. Often she had 19-20. She also worked on campus her sophomore, junior and senior years. Besides the 18+ credits, and her job, she had orchestra rehearsal (which required more hours leading up to a concert), and various required performances several weekends throughout the year. The only time she came home for a full weekend was the weekend after she graduated. (Not counting breaks, just weekends.) Oh, she played gigs whenever she could.
All that to say, sure, a double major is possible, depending on the school's requirements, but boy, howdy, are those music majors die hards!
Whooo boy!
On *paper* it seems do-able... but she's been told many times that "on paper" does not translate to real-life, so she's prepared. The farther she gets into this, the more comfortable she is with the idea of "just" being a music major. She's kind of in shock that she's considering such a thing (original plan involved getting a degree that would ensure lots of $$ on the other side. This certainly is not it!!)
Not that this will be a problem for your child, but we knew a student who got into one university, but was not accepted into that uni's school of music. We knew another student who auditioned for and was accepted into the same uni's SoM, but didn't get accepted into the uni! The heart break. (Dd was accepted to both at every place she applied. Whew!)
Eeeek! There is one school in particular that we aren't sure either way. It's an out of state "private ivy" with "extra" homeschool-applicant requirements AND the music program is very competitive as well. It's intimidating to apply at a place where you could possibly be rejected - twice!!
I'm curious about what instrument your child plays, but I am a privacy freak (OK, just a freak), so I won't ask.
One more thing: SoM auditions began in the fall and the last possible audition date was in Feb. I hated waiting so long to know about the SoM's acceptance, but dd wanted to audition later. She entered all the local music competitions and used those as practice for her auditions. Smart cookie, that girl but I think all musicians are brilliant! (I'm not one, obviously!)
LOL! DD already has a spreadsheet of competitions made up! We've got a giant desktop calendar where we can keep track of all the "potential" competitions, school deadlines, possible audition weeks (based upon this year's dates). It's quite a juggling act!
Best of luck. I recall those days so well. Tom Petty really did say it best.
Gonna add that to our playlist to listen nonstop after the fall semester has started!
And double-majoring in music is challenging.
Dd thought she wanted to double-major. After talking with LOTS of people, she decided not to. Apparently most people who double-major love music but their main focus is the other major, so the music department often won't take double-majors seriously.
Interesting about being taken seriously. Definitely something to think about!! She was considering a BA, but we were warned that BAs are often not taken as seriously either.
The music world is so snooty!! :rolleyes: (said by a non-musician!! :p )
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1) Dd sat in on a few classes -- mostly music ones but others if relevant music classes weren't convenient.
2) My dd is very friendly and definitely approached people and talked about the program, the professors, etc.
3) When possible, she attended concerts and master classes, but since she did a few of her visits over the summer it wasn't always possible.
4) YES! Do take "sample lessons"! Teachers are VERY different from one another, and just because someone is a great teacher doesn't mean he/she will be great for your student! Dd ended up not applying to two schools that she thought she would apply to because she didn't like the "rapport" in the sample lesson.
We have discovered this for sure. There is a brilliant teacher my son had a lesson with and did. not. like. him. one. bit. So, it was easy to cross him off ds's potential list! For dd, same thing... her instrument tends to be a boy's club and some of the "brilliant" instructors are flat-out sexist.
This is why professor-selection is so important to her (and the dynamics of the studio). If a favored professor leaves and they replace them with one of these jugheads... it's not going to be a pretty time. Blech.
Bonus for taking a sample lesson -- the profs know you in the audition. There is nothing like being escorted out of an audition at a big-name music school and hearing the words, "We hope to see you in the fall!" But during various music camps she had worked with all the profs and they had seen what she could do, so the audition was just a formality.
5) Dd has been "cut off" during some auditions. If time is at a premium, they will cut people off! And in my dd's experience, being cut off has no relation to acceptance or merit aid.......
VERY Good to know!
"A big question on the East Coast is fly or drive to auditions? Auditions are always in the dead of winter, and they almost never re-schedule, so if you fly and your flight is cancelled you are out of luck."
A friend's student had this happen at Julliard. It has been a few years, so I don't remember the exact details. It had something to do with NY weather, and it had nothing to do with the student. Then, there was some kind of issue with rescheduling. Julliard wasn't first choice, so the friend didn't jump through the hoops to reschedule.
:svengo: Nightmare!!!
Ironically, Julliard is closed today due to weather. Are auditions held in the middle of the week?
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Have you visited any schools at all? I will say visiting some campuses and meeting with some music teachers, even though there are definitely some further flung options we would not visit until auditioning has given some clarity to the process for my kid.
Yes, we've "visited" some schools and have attended recitals, concerts, master classes that were open to the public... but she hasn't "officially" visited any yet (other than the nearby one, where she practically lives). There are maybe two within driving distance. The rest are a trek.
My dd is a performance major at conservatory. She did all of the things you ask about over the course of junior and senior year. Junior year, she visited multiple conservatories and did the following: asked for and took a sample lesson ($100 - 200.00) to feel out the "fit" with the teacher, sat in on a theory class, did the typical college tour and info session, went to a concert and a masterclass if one was happening at the time, and actively approached current students in the studio to ask questions and to get the feel of the fit of the studio.
Did you usually set up these class sit-ins through the auditioning/professor or through admissions?
The sample lessons were great to both feel out the teacher and also to help her focus on the practice schedule for auditions - she knew more of what they were looking for. She also found that meeting the teachers was really inspiring and helped her push herself through the exhausting preparation for auditions.
The conversations with current students were super helpful both in terms of imagining herself at each school, and also for actual tips about auditioning for the particular teacher. These were not set up by the department or teacher during the visit, but happened quite randomly at the coffee shop and in the hall. She's really shy and surprised herself by reaching out - maybe being out of her usual comfort zone made it somehow easier.
Very good to know!
When it came time for auditions the following year, she felt more prepared because she had met the teacher and knew the school. I think the teachers may have remembered her from taking the sample lesson. During audition season, the schools all had conservatory-specific info sessions and we also went to a few cheese-and-crackers events with current students, set up by some of the schools with the purpose of prospies asking questions. You tend to see the same students and parents at every school as auditions are staggered over several weeks, with the parents carrying audition clothes and coats and snacks and tea.
:laugh: We already see so many of the same faces at various competitions, etc we have attended! Especially for my son, who plays a more common instrument... (although those parents are the "dance parents" of the instrument world. Whoo boy!)
She was never cut off during auditions, though told not to "repeat" during certain pieces. This may be instrument-specific though, I also heard other parents say their kids had been stopped. Some of the more popular instruments have pre-screening requirements, which means they won't be asked to audition unless they pass the pre-screen. I believe voice, piano, flute, and cello are some of the ones with pre-screening.
We are simultaneously relieved at the schools that require pre-screens and horrified. lol It will save $$ if she's not invited to a live audition (as opposed to having to do a "live" First Round audition...) - but that could surely knock her confidence out of whack to find that out in the middle of everything!
Like you, I had an older student who lived in a totally different academic world and so had to figure it all out anew. Auditions were a sweet season of our lives together, despite the stress. I learned the tricks of how to support her - hot mugs of tea to keep her hands warm, bringing every bit of clothing and gear you might possibly need, double checking the music/tuner/tuning key, and of course keeping a steady stream of calming jokes at the ready. Depending on your child's instrument, you have to think about where she can practice - in a hotel room? On campus in a practice room? In the car?
THIS is what we've learned! Bring ALL The clothes. KEEP warm! DS had a devastating recent audition because it was on a freezing Saturday and the building was barely heated. He was running up and down the hallway and doing jumping-jacks while in his coat. His hands were frozen and didn't move properly. We were in the warm-up room with violinists, cellists, and it was horrible! You could tell the parents who were more "pro" at this because they had warm containers of tea, hand-warmers, etc. My kid had the worst audition of his life, and we laugh about "Wow! That was a way to learn THAT lesson!" So now I practically bring a rolling duffle of clothes, gloves, hats, hand-warmers, etc. :smilielol5: Lesson LEARNED!
A big question on the East Coast is fly or drive to auditions? Auditions are always in the dead of winter, and they almost never re-schedule, so if you fly and your flight is cancelled you are out of luck. If you drive and the road gets closed for lake effect snow, you are out of luck. If you arrive after a white-knuckle car ride and your child is tired and flustered, she needs to have that inner reserve of groundedness to power through. My daughter's year happened to be a year of enormous snow storms, so we drove to several schools and hauled her massive concert grand harp over snowbanks. We flew to one so she couldn't have her own harp, and then got stuck at the airport on the way home due to another storm. No practicing for three days but we played lots of rummy and I read her the Odyssey (which was weirdly appropriate.)
:ohmy: THAT is good to know! Yikes! Yes, some of the NE schools are on her list and their auditions seem to be in January and February? And they are a long, long way from us. Missing an audition due to weather will be financially devastating - we couldn't make another trip even if they did reschedule. We're trying to plan this out as economically as possible (ha!)... so weather mishaps will be catastrophic. Might have to investigate travel insurance on those trips, just in case.
The waiting for financial aid and merit scholarships is hard, especially if your dd is looking at schools in Canada. Some conservatories are need-blind and some are need-aware, same as liberal arts colleges. Auditions count for the majority of the admissions process to conservatory, but obviously not to the college side of the double degree programs. I don't have any info as to merit scholarships for double-degree, hopefully others here know more about the double-degree option. I do know that each year students at her conservatory apply to become double-degree after being there a few years, rather than starting out that way.
THANK YOU!!
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I've asked a similar question over a year ago, but am asking again for new information if anyone has it.
Any words of wisdom for applying to music schools? Both stand-alone conservatories and those that are within a university?
DDs Plan A is a performance degree. Possibly with a minor in business or computer science. Possibly with a double-major (she will have quite a few accumulated CLEP/AP credits by then, so at some schools, this might be a realistic possibility). All of these "possibilities" simply vary depending on which school we're talking about, and what will be, or won't be, possible there.
She and I are both Type A Planners. The knowledge that she will not have any scholarship info in her hands until end-of-March or sometime in April is killing us slowly.
She has a Plan B and a Plan C already mostly mapped out (finalized today!). It's the Plan A that's giving us the vapors.
Any tips?
(DD1 was a recruited athlete... so I keep defaulting to how the coaches handle recruits and have to smack myself into remembering that the music world is *quite* different!)
Specific Questions:
1) Did your student sit-in on ANY classes at that school they applied to? IF so, did they sit in on a music class, or a gen ed class?
2) Did your student meet ANYONE (a student) within the program itself when they had their audition/interview? IF so, did they just "happen upon" this person, or did a professor set someone up to walk them around a bit?
3) Was your student able to watch any of the concerts, recitals, master classes happening at the time of their visit? IF so, did anyone interact with them at these events?
4) Did your student take a private lesson with a professor(s) at all of the schools they auditioned for previous to their scheduled audition? I imagine this is not normal, since the distance between programs is quite great. So, sometimes the audition is the FIRST time the student meets the professor? (and sometimes, I understand, the main professor isn't even always there for auditions, but instead, they video the auditions to watch later)
5) Was your student "cut off' during their audition? I keep reading that a student might be cut off once a professor has "heard enough to make a decision" and that this "has nothing to do with the likelihood of acceptance." But we've not yet met anyone who was cut off... so... how common IS this? (I know it probably varies wildly from instrument-to-instrument, but I'm still curious)
Finding "her tribe" of people within this instrument is actually a huge concern of dds. The "type" of person who plays this instrument seems to be in 2 or 3 solid boxes. Some programs are definitely geared toward one of those particular boxes and if she can't interact with other students, she can't really tell what type of Box this program caters to...
She has friends going through the process this year and NONE of them have sat-in on any classes at any of the schools they auditioned for! I would've thought that was "normal," but now we're doubting this!
There are a couple within-driving-distance schools she's interested in, and I'm wondering if we should spend time over the next two months, or early fall visiting those and meeting the professors... or if she should just wait until application time? Showing interest is good, though, right?
Argh. It's all too much. :cheers2:
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My dd lost out on a major scholarship at an in-state university because her lack of interest was obvious. She bombed the interview for several reasons - but also because when they asked the "why do you love the idea of going here?" types of questions, she wasn't able to disguise the fact that she really didn't want to go there, but rather, was at the interview because her mama wanted to her have a safety. :lol: The scholarship went to someone with significantly less "credentials" than dd, but who was overjoyed to attend that university.
When we got dds scholarship from that university, we just busted out laughing. It was sooooo piddly. So tiny. They really, really didn't get the feel that she wanted to be there. Oh dear, it was bad. lol
DD2 may apply for this same scholarship at this same university, and it will be a 180-degree difference in interest because, for her, this school truly offers many of the things she is looking for (in her "Plan B" scenario... but they don't have to know that... :001_tt2: )
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Very cool @JennW in SoCal!
My surprise is that I'd thought the program was more focused on "academics," whereas my friend's dd's experience seems focused on the work-experience and the behind-the-scenes experiences - which seems to be in-line with JennW's son's experience.
I'd honestly thought the program was: job-shadowing or interning some of the "desk jobs" or "career jobs" during the daytime hours with classes held in the evenings! I'm not sure where I got that idea... but that's what I imagined! So when friend told me her dd's job (lifeguarding) I was surprised - because that's just "a job" that any college kid could get ... if that makes sense? I know this girl's college major and just didn't see what lifeguarding has to do with it, so I was confused. I obviously misunderstood the purpose (dd will want to apply in either case!).
@katilac I'll visit the disboards! I haven't been over there in a decade and never would've thought to check. Of *course* they have a forum for this! :lol: There's a forum for everything over there! lol
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If so, how was their experience?
A friend's daughter is currently doing this and I've been following along and asking questions. It's not anything like I'd imagined!
DD2 will most likely want to apply eventually, and so I'm curious to see if others' experiences are similar to my friend's dd's experience. (She's having a GREAT time... it just wasn't what I was expecting it to be! So I'm wondering if there are variations or if I just originally imagined something vastly different from the actual experience)
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nm - I think we stumbled upon just the thing tonight!
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That is awesome!!! Congrats!!
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Hi, my friend has an abnoxious, rude, and very disrespectful 7 year old who has no qualms about being disrespectful to family members and adult friends. We had a play date (3 moms & 4 kids.) My son is 3, and the other mom has 2 three year old twin daughters. Daughters are coloring on one side of the room, and the hosting mom was in the kitchen. Her son was acting absolutely inappropriately so I told him that. He responded with: well, I can call CPS. Mind you, he had mentioned calling cps on his mom once because she wouldn’t buy him a hamster. The other mom had already been packing up the girls’ stuff, but she heard what the hosting mom’s son said. Both of our mouths dropped open. I told him that you don’t joke around like that and that it wasn’t funny. Hosting mom comes back into the room and I told her my son and I were leaving as well. I sounded stern, and then her child says to me: (in front of her) you don’t have to get snotty about it. Jaws dropped again, and this time I told my son to get his shoes on because we were leaving now. His mom did tell him it wasn’t nice to say that, but making him sit in a corner to think about how his poor attitude has just affected his life. I haven’t spoken to the mom since, and will not have my son playing with the other boy again. My son doesn’t need to learn bad habits at this very impressionable age. What do I say to the mom if she calls?
You and your 3-yo son had a playdate with another mom and her two 3-year-olds at the home of a mom with a 9 (or 7?) year old son? I'm confused.
Why would a mom with a 9 (or 7?) year old son invite three 3-year-olds over for a playdate?
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our list is getting whittled down to a manageable level!
DD2 (senior year)
Derek Owens AP Calc AB
Derek Owens Physics (planning to do this over the summer into fall)
Blue Tent AP English Lit
PAH AP Music Theory
Spanish III
there will be 2-3 more classes that she'll take in short "bursts" throughout the summer/year to take some CLEP exams
DS1 (sophomore year)
Derek Owens AP Calc AB
PAH AP Chemistry
Blue Tent Honors English II
AP* Music Theory (private instruction - might take two years to cover the material... his teacher is planning that now)
Spanish III
US History (CLEP)
US Government (CLEP)
DD2 (senior year)
AP Calc AB (Derek Owens) OR AP Statistics (PAH)
AP Physics C: Electricity and Magnetism (PAH?? Maybe? I need to look at options) OR AP Chemistry (PAH)
AP English Lit (Blue Tent) OR Blue Tent Senior English (depends on her narrowed-down university choices... if she might get additional credit for Lit, she'll take that... or CC Comp II)
AP Music Theory (PAH or private instruction)
Spanish III or CC Spanish
there will be 2-3 more classes that she'll take in short "bursts" throughout the summer/year to take some CLEP exams
DS1 (sophomore year)
AP Calc AB OR AP Statistics
AP Physics C: Electricity and Magnetism + Mechanics OR AP Chemistry
Blue Tent Honors English II
AP Music Theory (PAH or private instruction)
Spanish III
US History (CLEP)
US Government (CLEP)
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Ha! Good questions!
DD's highest level of "Official Math Taken" is indeed, Calc I. She could have taken Calc II this semester, but didn't (she regrets that choice now...) She's taken a couple additional math courses "for fun," but unfortunately, those do not apply toward the math major (a stats class and some abstract geometry something or another)
However, she has "audited" a couple of upper-level math courses since arriving at the university. Not full-time audits, per se, but the professors allowed her to "sit in" during the lectures after she talked with them. A friend of hers was taking these classes over 2 semesters and having a miserable go at it. DD sat in on the lectures when she could and tutored the friend through his classes (as well as a couple she didn't sit in on - she'd read the text, notes, and videos and tried to sort out the process for herself as something "fun" to do). (with time she should have been spending on biology or anatomy... ahem... :001_rolleyes: )
That's where she was exposed to a theoretical something-or-another math class and another advanced math class (I cannot for the life of me remember which ones, though! It's all Greek to me!).
That's where all this trouble started. :laugh: The professors are lecturing and dd is just drinking it all in. Some of her "classmates" were not so sponge-esque and were glazed, deer-in-headlights, while dd is like a kid in a candy store eating it up. :drool: She LOVED Algebra, loved Geometry, LOVED Calculus... but these?? She was like, "I didn't know math could BE like that!" :001_tt1: :lol: So that's when she started really questioning her major selection.
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With all that said... we talked for a long time today and she's planning to stick with her current major and the math minor. It's just less risky with the little amount of time she has to play with. She has to FIRST talk to her athletic-academic advisor. THEN talk to the mathematics academic-advisor. THEN talk to the dean of the mathematics department for an approval... it's just too many steps & one tiny slip-up or miscommunication could cost her $$$$$. We can't afford a "bonus" semester at this school.
After she's gotten her bachelor's - she could finish up a math degree at a university closer to home and then continue for a master's if she decides she'd prefer that to PT. It'll work out one way or another...
I should have prepared her better - that's 100% on me. She's a kid who started reading books about theoretical physics, etc "for fun" and doing accurate work in Algebra books "for fun" when she was just an itty bitty thing. I didn't see her as "advanced" because she was just... herself. She was always sooooo far ahead of anyone else we knew that if felt like I was already pushing her! I just didn't see the rush because Calc I in high school seemed the be-all, end-all (especially because, at that time, we couldn't afford to outsource all that much). Live and learn... :/
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Can't quote since you answered inside my quote and it won't show up:
I would be very surprised if she were not allowed to take an introductory class like calc II at another institution over the summer.
Many students do not take calc 2 at all at their college, because they have AP credit or have taken a college calc class as DE.
I'm going to have her call her advisor and ask about this before her appointment. If this can happen - that certainly makes this less daunting!!!! DD will be thrilled!!
What is that "data sheet" you speak of?
The Curriculum Sheet for the major. Sort of like this:
http://catalog.utk.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=22&poid=9212
Taking three courses in the major in the upper semesters sounds completely normal (3 courses/semester at 3 credits each is 18 credits per year). My physics majors take three physics courses during most semesters.
That's what they are looking forward to - to take classes in their major! Because that's what they enjoy studying.
OK. That's true. That's why she's excited at the prospect, while I look at that much math and get cold chills and start to panic. Very good point.
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You say that two of the available electives are used up as requirements--I am not following what you mean by this. Is the same course listed as "requirement" and as an "elective"?
Yes. There are four classes that are in both sections (Advanced Calculus 1&2 or Abstract Algebra 1&2). Either pair are a "requirement." Two are available FE/WO and two are available FO/WE. They all require Calc III as a pre-req, iirc... so dd has to take Calc III before she can take either.
Then those same four classes appear in the electives section along with other classes to choose from.
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FWIW, my ds goes to a small school and changed majors and was worried he would have this problem. It says explicitly in several places in the bulletin that classes in his major MUST be taken at the school. He asked the head of the department what to do if he ran into a problem and the response was that he would sign off on pretty much any substitution from another college. So that leaves summer school and the vast array of online offerings to pick up a missing class if necessary.
Totally not specific to your dd situation but maybe it gives you some encouragement.
That IS good to hear. Maybe there's hope!
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Another concern is math overload. The "Sample Curriculum" for a Math Major shows:
Freshman year: 10 math credits
Sophomore year: 10 math credits
Junior year: 12 math credits
Senior year: 12 math credits
DDs would be:
Junior year fall: 7 math credits (plus Physics I and Kinesiology, which won't be a walk in the park for her)
(Calc II, Introductory Linear Algebra)
Junior year spring: 10 math credits (Plus Physics II)
(Calc III, Ordinary Differential Equations, Number Theory)
Junior Year: 17 total math credits
Senior year fall: 9 math credits
(Abstract Algebra I, Probability and Statistics, Complex Variables)
Senior year spring: 9 math credits
(Abstract Algebra II, Linear Algebra II, Elementary Differential Geometry)
Senior Year: 18 total math credits
It's difficult for me to be able to be pragmatic about this kind of decision, because I am Sooooo not a math person. She's read the course descriptions and says that they all sound "like so much fun" and "so interesting." But will it be so when it's all she's doing? Because that sounds like a LOT to me.
This is a kid who is whip-smart. But she really had no idea of what she wanted to do/be in college. She's good at all.the.things, and it made it incredibly difficult for her to make a decision. The GOAL of being a PT makes sense and the JOB itself will fit her perfectly. But, the major she's selected hasn't felt "quite right." And when she's taken the math classes she has taken... she's giddy. OF course, none of those will count toward the mathematics degree... lol But... I'd love to help her make this happen - but don't want her to wind up degree-less!!!
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thank you!!
Q1: yes, sometimes it is possible for departments to waive a degree requirement or substitute another course which they consider equivalent. She needs to talk to her advisor.
Q2: If a class isn't offered, the student needs to either: take it over the summer elsewhere, take it online through another college, wait until it is offered again, get a waiver from the department.
She has been told she can't take a class elsewhere if it applies to her major. She is taking PT-specific courses over the summer (Chemistry I & II) because her major doesn't require those. I'm wondering if the same would apply to something like Calculus II, though. If she could take Calc II over the summer, that would add a lot of flexibility! Adding it to the list of questions for her advisor.
Some courses can be waived, others must be taken and are non-negotiable. Some can be substituted by others. Only the departmental advisor can answer this question for her, and te answer will depend on the specific class.
Excellent. She has an appointment with her advisor (she just told me it's after Spring Break though, ugh).
Course catalogs usually list all courses that have been approved by the university, but not all catalog courses are offered in any given semester.
ETA: But it is also normal that double majors in non-overlapping subjects cannot be completed within four years. The department should try to work with her, but if the class line-up is such that it fully uses the four year time frame, the answer might be that a double major will require additional semesters, especially in heavily sequenced subjects.
She won't be a double-major. She'll have a major and a minor (she only needs two more classes for the minor). The math major itself has a TON of open elective credit hours included. It will be as though several of the classes she took toward Old Major were merely electives she took during her first two years.If she will be there for one fall odd and one fall even (and same for winter), each class she still needs would be offered one of the following four semesters, won't it? Why would she be 6 credits shy? (Is it because of class sequencing?)
Just recalculated - looks like she is only 3 credits shy. (unless this last class I just spotted has a pre-req I didn't jot down... I'll need to double check)
She needs 18 hours of Major electives. There are 9 classes offered that are available (TWENTY-TWO are listed on the Mathematics Major Data/Course sheet... but 13 of those are unavailable).
On our worksheet, she has selected 15 hours of electives (5 classes)
Two of the available electives classes are already "used up" as Major REQUIREMENTS.
Two of the classes have prereqs (Calc III, iirc) that need fulfilled, but she won't have those until Fall/Odd-Winter/Even Senior year. But those two classes are only offered Fall/Even-Winter/Odd. So they're out.
An advisor, or department chair depending on the school, can make reasonable substitutions if a class is not available. Sometimes a special course will be offered that has a different name/number than the required course, but will be a course that the department will generally substitute. She will really need to talk to her advisor and see if given the sequence necessary for math courses if she will be able to fulfill requirements for a degree.
What is the mathematics data-sheet you are looking at that has courses listed as "unavailable"? Is that unavailable pertaining to a particular semester? Does something switch to unavailable once a class is filled for the semester or once a date passes and a student can no longer enroll in the course?
Yes, the data sheet shows the classes as completely unavailable. I imagine, possibly, these were classes that were offered at one time previously, but no longer offered. So they are still on the data sheet because some seniors may have taken one of those classes. ?
Their course wizard shows classes that were offered for the past two years or so. If a class is closed, it will still be listed, but shown as "closed' due to lack of enrollment. These 12 classes are just... not there. Anywhere.
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Help me walk through this logically. DD will be talking to her academic advisor as well... but her appointment is a few days away.
DD would love to change her major to mathematics. She's currently in her fourth semester. Right now she is an Athletic Training Major with a Mathematics minor (will include Calc I, II, III and 2-3 other higher-math classes).
We discussed this over the Christmas Break and that's when she added the math minor because we weren't sure making the "major" change was do-able. But as this semester has progressed, she's increasingly frustrated at herself for not making the switch sooner, so we are reevaluating the situation. She has to declare a Final major (and not change it) before the end of this semester, iirc.
So:
Some of the math classes are offered all the time - Fall and Winter.
Some are only offered Even Fall or Odd Fall. Others are only Even Winter or Odd Winter. So, only one semester out of her four remaining semesters that some classes are even available to take.
On *paper,* she would be 6 credits shy (in the major-electives section). This is due to the EF or OF situation and the fact that she only has 4 semesters to play around with.
Question 1) A classmate told her she could possibly override this by talking with the head of the mathematics department. I would assume she would need that in writing. IS this a thing that can be done sometimes??
Question 2) Some of the classes are listed as EF (Even Year, Fall Semester). However, when I pull up the course wizard for Fall 2018, this course isn't listed. So I checked others - and sure enough, one of them is listed Odd Fall... but it isn't listed in the Fall 2017 schedule. What happens if a class she needs simply isn't offered? Is the student screwed or is the university required to offer some type of substitution?
Their Mathematics data-sheet has a TON of Math Electives, but half of them are listed as "Unavailable." So it was shocking to me to go to the online wizard and find two more classes that are listed as available... but in reality... aren't. :glare: This is a health-sciences-heavy university - not a ton of math majors walking around.
She and I have made a mock-up of what the next two semesters could look like for her to Major in Math and Minor in Athletic Training (her current major). She is also fitting in the requirements for Physical Therapy School (Chemistry, Calc, Biology, etc). Final goal is DPT school. However, she daydreams about having a job where she "gets to do math all day." It comes naturally to her and she's a weird kid (lol, said with much, much love. :laugh:♥)
(Mathematics as a major was never. ever. on our list of options. I have NO idea why. No clue why neither of us considered it. She was planning on Engineering until she decided she wanted to be a Physical Therapist instead and work with kids or athletes (most of the engineering jobs she sat-in on were very isolated and she didn't care for that))
Update on Changing Majors without Classes Offered...
in The College Board
Posted · Edited by hopskipjump
Oh, duh. I obviously missed that connection in a big way. Off to read that thread... Thanks RootAnn. 😊
As stupid luck would have it, I have a painful family history with an *actual* religious cult as a youth and therefore have a strong, extremely negative reaction when I hear the term used. Sense of humor gets drowned out on this topic and gives way to a much stronger, panicked, drowning-in-quicksand emotion. There’s no sense of humor in that place - and no way I was going to make that connection myself. lol
So sometimes I need a hard nudge for perspective - because my brain immediately leaps to a bad place. Thanks for that nudge. 😊
All’s good and I’m thrilled for DD to join the ranks of Plansrme’s type of “cult.†Phew 😅