[Is classical conversations a cult..or product..or..]

That's interesting because in my college teaching, they ENCOURAGE email. Even if you have a face-to-face with a student about their grades, you are supposed to email them what you agreed to so that it is recorded. It's part of the trail of communication if the professor is sued.

Yeah, it's a super creepy policy IMHO. An unnamed official CC "big cheese" (only referred to as that) wrote that a paper trail is encouraged when printed out or written out and hand-delivered. This "big cheese" explained that PIRPL was just a policy to encourage face-to-face communication (what all the other pro-CC commenters were saying) but never addressed the deletion directive which is clearly written in the director's handbook. Why?! Why delete?? No answer. Comments closed. Cultish? I think so.

[Is classical conversations a cult..or product..or..]

I haven't read all the comments, but I wanted to share some things I have learned about CC corporate policies that, according to what I have read on their closed Facebook group, they expect their contracted directors (community leaders) and above (support and area representatives - they used to be called "managers") to follow. And in some cases, according to the thread on the CC FB group and according to some of their support reps and directors, they even expect their customers to follow the policies.

 

The first is called a SMART plan - something that was first described to me years ago as a way to correct a "wayward community" but was more recently described as a way to approach any major conflict in a community - even among customers. It stands for Specific, Measurable, Accountable, Reasonable, and Timely They are supposedly steps in a written plan for conflict resolution that may be implemented by a director or a higher-up rep.

 

The second policy is PIRPL (some call it PERPL). From the Classical Conversations FB group, PIRPL is to say that there should be no written communication (email, paper, etc...) of anything of a Personal, Inflammatory, Religious, Performance-related, or Legal nature. It was also confirmed by a support rep in that FB group that the director's licensing guide (their handbook) explains that emails of this nature are to be immediately deleted by the director. I have heard a version where the email that violates PIRPL is to be deleted without being read.

 

The apologists explain that the deletion directive is simply to encourage face-to-face or voice-to-voice communication, but those who question it wonder why the email must be deleted. Why not simply read the email and then follow up in person?

 

I try to be careful what I share since CC threatened to sue me for defamation among other things, but everything here is true opinions (not defamatory) to the best of my knowledge from reading them in a large Facebook group and from my own personal experiences in a CC community. I share it now and here because it is relevant to the OP question about if there is a cult-like nature and because it was clear from the CC FB group thread that many people in CC did not know about these policies.

 

Hope this helps!

[Is classical conversations a cult..or product..or..]

You can look it up. Go to Facebook and look in the classical conversations posts. It was part of their marketing to the Facebook crowd. This was not a sarcastic post. CC is a multi-million dollar business at the corporate level and is marketed as a low paying ministry at the community level.

 

 

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I'm just going off of an article on taxes 6 years ago with Leigh Bortin's saying how if she didn't have to pay such high tax rates for her company who's profits were $1-2 million, she could afford to hire more people. Based on how CC has grown, I'm still assuming multi-million.

 

 

http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/27/pf/taxes/warren_buffett_tax_millionaires/index.htm

 

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Robert Bortins, CEO, says on the CC corporate website that CC has been doubling in size every 4 years. You take that $1-2 mil article and extrapolate a 150% increase in the last 6 years. Yes. Multi-millions.

 

And, BethBen, yes, yes, yes!!! Big Corp worldwide level, tiny little 'ole mom and pop mission opportunity at the local level. They're certainly good at controlling the narrative.

 

p.s. as for all the edits. Ugh. Morning. Math. Hard. 😂

[Is classical conversations a cult..or product..or..]

You'll know within the SECOND time of meeting someone who's in an MLM....(whether it's purses, jewelry, pampered chef or CC)...because until you make it clear that you are NOT interested, they'll keep trying to "slyly" sell you stuff. Send you notices on Facebook, add you to their mailing list, Invite you to their parties..

 

Even when I was dead broke I refuse to do that to my friends and acquaintances. Half the time people buy something because they feel bad for you. When we were struggling, I cleaned houses to afford piano. They got a clean house, I got money for piano. No one is pressured. LOL

 

My hubby says, I should just keep 10.00 bills in my wallet, and when a friend or acquaintance starts with the MLM stuff, just get out the 10.00 and say, "...here this is for you." I know his sentiment is a little unkind, but it's also a little unkind to turn every friendship and acquaintance you have into a sales situation.

Ya, it's so hard to explain this to people who want to believe the hype, but CC is all kinds of trouble. I know there are "good campuses" We had one. HAD being operative, and it wasn't inexperienced teachers that made us leave. It was corporate's controlling behavior. I'm sure some of you have seen me all over the forums trying to tell my story. I get some hate for it, because the CC true believers are so... faithful. But there's nothing magical about CC just like there's nothing magical about Plexus or Rodan and Fields or whatever... Only reason I keep talking about it is because I keep hearing horror stories from new angles. But then the pushback comes and I feel like singing that Andre3000 song "Hey Ya" - you know the one from years ago that goes "Shake it like a Polaroid picture!" The song is about whether or not romantic love can last - a heavy subject - but the sound is all peppy and at one point Andre says, "Y'all don't wanna hear me; you just wanna dance." I think of that line all. the. time.

[Is classical conversations a cult..or product..or..]

Challenge is 1250 and the price is standard nationwide, I believe. But that doesn't include materials, but you'd have to buy them anyway wherever you went.

 

In "average America" parochial school is about 7000.00 for 7-12th grade. That DOES include textbooks but not fees, uniforms. So, CC is about 1/6 the cost of parochial school.

 

However, it's definitely Papa Murphys. You have to teach, you have to grade, you have to grade all papers and tests. If the child doesn't understand, you have to hire a tutor, they can't email their "tutor" mid week.

 

So comparing CC and parochial school doesn't make sense anyway. :) That's like comparing Papa murphys (a raw freaking pizza) with your local Italian grandpa's pizza place. ...two different things.

 

But as I said able McDonalds, some people love it. Some people also love Papa Murphys. My husband was so incredulous he actually went in and asked if his wife was correct and do they indeed sell only raw pizza??? I myself tried it once and it flopped all over the place and almost fell on the floor trying to transfer it to my baking stone. I don't get it!!!

 

Agreed that the comparison to parochial school is uneven. CC's only 1/6 the cost of a typical parochial school if you don't count that the upper level CC programs meet one day a week and the rest is at home and most parochial schools meet 5 days a week (so both parents could work if they needed to).  Extrapolate that CC cost out to five days a week and Ay chihuahua!

[Is classical conversations a cult..or product..or..]

To the person who said that your director friend was running a good campus and was not a slave to the program - I'm glad. I was part of a campus like that... until the corporate goons came and browbeat our director into doing things their *exact* way. I hope your friend's experience lasts, but I don't think it will. They'll come for her eventually. It's been a really sad journey we've had with CC. To answer the original post: it's a multi-million dollar business as the corporate level. It's a multi-hundred, possibly low multi-thousand business at the level of the poor schlubs who chose to "represent", direct or tutor (and probably think they're doing a "ministry). Not unlike any other MLM. Plexus isn't about the *money*, right? Plexus reps want to help you *heal your gut*. Right?

[Is classical conversations a cult..or product..or..]

Not only cultish, but just Google the legal ramifications. "Classical Conversations" "Independent Contractor" "tax" "IRS". There was once a Facebook group that discussed these things but the woman who founded it shut it down after CC's corporate lawyers threatened to sue her for breaching her confidentiality clause (that is in every contract and non-disclosure agreement a CC worker has to sign). They threatened to sue me also in an official letter from their corporate lawyers but as I never signed a contract they lobbed accusations of slander and business interference. If that all doesn't tell you enough about what this supposedly Christian company is like, I don't know what you need to hear.

[S/O Landry Academy - What about Classical Conversations?]

And when I say "serious about worker protections" here's a good article about what I mean in terms of worker protections that ICs don't get: http://m.huffpost.com/us/news/independent-contractors

[S/O Landry Academy - What about Classical Conversations?]

Carol Topp, via her webinar on this issue posted here: http://www.virtualhomeschoolgroup.org/calendar/view.php?view=day&time=1484420400#event_161

seems to think the classification investigation was very influential in Landry's failure. And essentially that *is* the 'business structure". As Cadam pointed out, CC directors "technically" have a lot of autonomy but that was not my campus's experience in practice. Our director was being told by our support manager and area manager (erm... representatives) what to do and how to tell her tutors exactly what to do - right down to our being required to hand-write information on the board rather than use a computer printout. In my opinion, that's a pretty granular level of control. And I'm with others here. I would *never* agree to be a Foundations director, because I would bear all of the tax liability (of possible misclassification) even though, in our case, our director was clearly being instructed on what to do. I wouldn't be flippant about sharing this info. CC has already threatened to sue me. But, this is the truth about what happened to our campus.

On another post someone indicated that it seemed the "IRS crackdown on ICs" seemed targeted at Landry, I present the landmark Microsoft case: https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSTRE53063S20090401

"Tiny" homeschooling groups aren't being targeted any more than giant corporations. The fact is, if you hire ICs and then treat them like employees, the IRS is likely to find you eventually. The is also this case from Ohio about a homeschool group that got back-taxed and fined to the tune of somewhere around $15,000. Please click the link. It's eye-opening: http://homeschoolcpa.com/update-on-teachers-as-independent-contractors/ Landry is not getting picked on. The IRS is serious about worker protections. They get their taxes either way - either the independent contractor (the 1099 bearer) pays the extra FICA tax or the employer does. Even if you include business deductions, someone gets to take them. From my perspective the IRS gets paid either way - but the hiring of employees and then calling them independent contractors is bad for our economy.

[S/O Landry Academy - What about Classical Conversations?]

Since Classical Conversations' corporate lawyers threatened to sue me in a cease and desist letter in June for discussing some of these things, I have to be very careful here. I am not a lawyer. I'm a homeschooling mom. I am not giving legal advice nor am I telling you what I know to be a fact - just what I have experienced and my opinion of what I have experienced with regard to CC. If anyone would like to see a copy of the official legal threat letters made against me by CC, please pm me, and I will share a copy of the letters. Note: I never signed a contract with CC, so I am not under the obligation of their nondisclosure agreements or confidentiality clauses.

 

I was a member of a CC community for 4 years. I tutored in the 2014-2015 school year. I never signed a contract because by CC's own policies I worked for my director, not CC. I didn't like the contract they instructed my director to have me sign, and I didn't sign it. I was hired as an independent contractor and I paid self-employment tax. This has been CC's business model. The director hires the tutors. And, it is my understanding that, yes, the IRS may audit a director to see if she has misclassified her workers. I only know of one IRS investigation directly - it was a director who felt she had been misclassified as an independent contractor. She filled out the IRS form to inquire a out her classification. Because parents pay directors (and directors pay the hefty "registration fees" to CC) but CC never directly paid the director, the IRS responded that it could not make a ruling as to whether the director should have been a CC employee or not. However, since the director hires her tutors, presumably the IRS *could* investigate a director personally. My point here is that just because it's big and been around a long time does not mean the IRS has investigated and cleared CC's business model. I don't really know how the IRS would deal with a director who hires her tutors as independent contractors and then tells them where and when and exactly how ("stick in the sand") to teach. This Landry Academy deal makes me feel like CC directors may be at risk.