cmb5
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Posts posted by cmb5
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Um, the comment about sacrificing your children was tongue in cheek and meant in jest.
It's all well and good to have opinions about education when one has no children old enough for any type of school but those opinions are just that, opinions. My main advice to anyone considering their educational choices for their kids when their kids are still tiny is to wait and see what works for the child. This could be way different than what you want or what he wants.
Sorry, I know. You weren't the first to use the word "sacrifice".
I like what you say here though. Of course we will wait, especially since we don't even know where we will live when schooling time comes. I would just rather not get to Kindergarten and with me feeling as if homeschooling is the way to go and my husband feeling (still) that it isn't even an option.
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Ok - thanks everyone for your input!
For anyone posting - PUBLIC SCHOOL IS NOT IN QUESTION HERE. :) Given the philosophical beliefs that he holds, we agree that public school, as it is right now, is not going to work.
I'm more looking for actual arguments here that will appeal to him, given his beliefs. Telling him that he's sacrificing his child because of those beliefs isn't going to convince him to homeschool. ;)
Thank you again everyone!
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Oh to have a preschooler and believe that public education is a totally functional public good and great equalizer. Or even to believe it can be fixed from within.
-signed the mom who would NEVER homeschool but who is now in year five of homeschooling after two disasterous public school years.
Children should not be sacrificial lambs to their parents' philosophical beliefs. There's belief and then there's the cold hard truth. Public school is a great idea that works for many but also fails many.
If you read above, public school isn't what we're considering here.
Pretty sure my husband is not sacrificing his children anytime soon.
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How would he feel about "keeping it small-scale" with a group of like-minded people: i.e., a co-op?
Oh - I just replied to someone else. Yes, having a co-op definitely makes him more sympathetic to the idea.
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It might be something to note that many home schoolers have a community like this that gathers regularly. Not exactly the same education given, but a community with similar values toward education.
I have made this point to him - and he agrees that a co-op situation (or even an informal community of homeschoolers) definitely makes it better.
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That's where you and this gentleman differ. The OP's husband is not looking for parenting advice or even deciding how to raise his own children. He would be willing to sacrifice them to the greater good, she said, if that is what Aristotle requires.
The state takes precedence over the family. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the view. The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it -- through guilt and self-loathing if not at the point of a gun. In other words, how does the love of a philosopher whose primary consideration was the state cause a man in another time and place to consider all of these philosophies as more important than his own flesh and blood?
Sometimes it's good to blow away the dust from the ancient tomes and call a thing what it is.
Ehhhhh... I wouldn't say he agrees with all of that. At all. My husband is ironically enough very anti-State. The ideas of Aristotle that we're discussing here aren't to be connected to the State but to a community in a more broad term. My husband believes that education should happen in a communal atmosphere, with people who share common values and goals. He (and I don't think Aristotle!) does not think it should be run by the State, but by the community. America is very anti-Aristotelian, namely because of its size and also because of its lack of community.
The idea is that your community, your people, are the people who both live near and share values with. You share the same "end" and therefore you come together and educate your children together and with the same values in mind. They are given the same education. America has adopted this general idea, but it doesn't work because again, the size and the lack of shared values.
When you keep it small-scale (to your parish, your street, your group of friends, whatever), it is easier to understand his position without making grand statements about my husband sacrificing our children on the altar of government-run-education.
(Edited for some typos! Though I'm sure I missed some.)
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I won't go into detail, then, but I used to agree with you - better to use secular materials than bad Christian materials, under the idea that no theology was better than bad theology. But I no longer believe there is such a thing as "no theology" - secular materials embody a theological view of the world, too - and though I sort of thought it would be easier to separate out secular "theology" than bad Christian theology, I'm starting to realize that I've absorbed far more of a secular worldview than I thought. I now see trying to choose between bad Christian theology and secular philosophy are trying to choose the lesser of two evils, and really I need to put my effort into seeking the *good*. I can't afford to have my view of the good of man, of how to live life, formed by the "lesser" evil, kwim?
Eta: I do think it's pertinent to a discussion of Aristotle, though, in that the secular ideal of a neutral public square is completely antithetical to Aristotle's view of education and politics (and per MacIntyre is actually a complete fiction - there is no such thing as moral neutrality, because taking the position that a large slice of life is "morally neutral" - I.e. outside the purview of morality - is taking a particular moral stance, and a novel and controversial one, at that.)
This is very interesting. I'm going to consider this more.
So glad you are helping me out here.
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Deciding how to raise kids as if it was some late night college philosophical salon seems wrong to me. I would rather do what is best for *my* kid.
I'm not sure someone who argues that males have more teeth than females, exhibits the level of pragmatism and realism I expect for child rearing advice ;)
Hmm... I wouldn't call my husband's career a "late night college philosophical salon". And of course he is concerned with what is best for his kid, we just disagree on what the best is. Part of the discussion is a discussion in an individualistic idea of schooling. While yes, we have to look at each individual person, we also don't buy into the American ideal of individualism. We have community and how we educate out children matters to more people than just that child.
Also, just because Aristotle gets a few things wrong doesn't negate everything he ever said. But I'm not going to debate that right now. :)
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Aristotle was one man. Read wider. Read some modern educational philosophers. Read Charlotte Mason. Read Climbing Parnassus.
...and if you want to have meaningful discussions with your children about such things someday, you'd better homeschool them.
There is a place for a liberal (generous) education for all. I believe that this should be a free and public thing! However, that is not what a child gets at the typical public school. (What is right is not the reality of what is!) There is also a place for an elite education. Someone needs to read in the original Latin and Greek in order to benefit the greater society. Someone needs to ace the highest levels of math and science. Someone needs to study philosophy. Someone needs to be a virtuoso on their instrument (for the LOVE, give us something other than the same 4 chords!!!). This sort of education is not possible for all, but all benefit when the few gifted ones do receive an elite education. Elite education is given a nasty sneer...but if your dh even knows who Aristotle *IS* then he could be considered elite in comparison to today's PS education.
Oh, of course Aristotle was only one man and more than just he has something to say about education. But for someone who has devoted his life to that one man's theories (and in particular, the man's theory on learning and intellect), convincing him to read other things is going to be a little hard. ;) Which is why I'm here of course.
And YES. I say that all the time. My husband is the exception to have come out of public school and end up an expert on ancient philosophy...
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I'm not a philosopher, so these are just some very amateur musings, but in After Virtue, Alasdair MacIntyre talks about how for Aristotle the pursuit of virtue wasn't supposed to be an individualistic thing, but rather everyone in a city-state was united in their vision of mankind's highest good, and pursued that good together (what virtues you seek to develop depends on what you see as humanity's ultimate purpose or goal). In fact, Aristotle's ideal of the polis *required* a shared common good, a shared ideal for the purpose of mankind. And education was to initiate students into that shared pursuit of the commonly-sought ultimate purpose, because that shared pursuit was the foundation for society, it was what bound the people together.
But that is not the ideal of liberal democracies. Whereas for Aristotle the common good was an an all-encompassing vision of what the good life for man was and what was the best way to achieve it, in liberal democracies, the ideal of the "common good" is far more modest - a minimal set of shared beliefs that is enough to support a limited government that protects and safeguards the liberty of the people to pursue their own idea of man's ultimate good. So public education is about passing on that minimal set of shared beliefs, but it's not *supposed* to be a complete moral education on its own, because there is no shared conception of mankind's purpose to unite around. Parents and churches and others are supposed to add their own moral teaching about mankind's purpose and highest good, because by design public education is just teaching the lowest common denominator wrt the moral dimension of life - only those things mutually agreed on, which is (hopefully) sufficient to maintain a government limited in scope which can safeguard the freedom of the people to pursue their own highest good from among all the competing views.
MacIntyre is skeptical about whether citizens really can be bound together as one nation when the "common good", such as it is, is so intentionally impoverished - where there is no agreement on the big issues of life. He talks about the need for new "monasteries" - places where people are bound together in the moral pursuit of an all-encompassing common good. Many Christians have talked about how to make local churches into such intentional communities, and I wonder if your parish school might be far closer to your dh's ideal than public school.
Oh my goodness - this is excellent. My husband studied under MacIntyre in undergrad. He definitely agrees with all of this.
Another quick point - really, public school isn't the issue here. We both agree that public school is generally not an option anymore. (Which is why this whole thing may be moot, because if we can't afford private school then homeschool it is!)
He would say that we should invest more in our parochial schools, as we are Catholic and our parish is the closest thing to our "polis" (geographic location, common goals, shared values, etc). I think that a parochial school (ideally) would fall under this "monastery" idea. So yes - exactly what you said, it is more what my husband is thinking.
But even the Catholic schools are under the rule of the standard mainstream schooling system, in my opinion. Plus, we've always said we'd rather our kids go to a non-Catholic school than a bad-Catholic school. With any faith, you'd rather your children not be taught it at school than be taught it wrong at school, right? That's a whole different discussion though (and not one for here!).
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Has he read Quintilian's On the teaching of speaking and writing? I'm not a philosopher and much of it went over my head, but it would be a good read to see how different public education is today vs. the Greek model.
Another book that might be helpful is the first edition of The Latin-Centered Curriculum. While both editions are excellent, the first edition is probably closer to his vision.
I will look into both of these - thank you!
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I am out of likes but I agree with Tibbie--this is for the husband. BTW I admire you for being married to a philosopher. I have been told it is a pain in the butt sometimes.
This made me chuckle... YES it is a pain in the butt sometimes.
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Y'all - this is an excellent thread. I have to go for a while, but I'll be back! Also, quick note, *I* don't need the convincing to homeschool. My husband does. ;) I think he's closer to agreeing and when the time comes, I think it will be our only option honestly.
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Will sending your children to PS fix it?
(I educate my own kid but vote as if PS is the only option.)
No, I don't think so. I don't think he thinks that either.
See above where I mentioned supporting a pastor who is reforming his school.
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Welcome. :)
Does he believe that the public schools do, in fact, give the same education to each child? And that the kind of education provided there was chosen because it is manifestly best for the community?
If both are true, he has a pretty good point, especially if your kids are fairly typical. (Although by "all" I think Aristotle meant male citizens, right? Not "all" as I would use it in the US today.)
On the other hand, a hard look at disparities of school funding and at the provenance and quality of schools' standards, methods and materials might prove that the city's (or nation's) schools would not satisfy Aristotle.
No, he doesn't think public schools are working. He thinks they're broken. He just thinks they need fixed and that homeschooling doesn't fix. Sigh...
Oh and of course Aristotle's idea of "all" is way different than today.
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I have a degree in philosophy, and I also believe in public schools for the same reason that your husband does to some extent (definitely more Aristotelian than Platonist). I work in education and public service because I believe in equal education and opportunity for all. But I send my kids to public school for an entirely different reason, which is, it works for us.
Aristotle was giving political advice on public policy and not advice on how to best educate an individual child. He is talking about what the state should do, not what parents should act as if the state is doing.
I personally believe in single payer health care. I can't go about my business as if that were the state of affairs and hope things will work out. My acting as if something were true is not going to get us one iota closer to that reality.
If your husband wants to see Aristotle's themes on this subject implemented then he needs to go into education policy.
As for your own children, he should take his cues from the Nicomachean Ethics, not Politics. Though, I wouldn't go so far as to take Aristotle's cues on slavery...
Oh I could kiss you right now. You make SUCH a good point about how he is discussing public policy and not individual needs of a child. Thank you!
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My argument is that people who believe in that principle should work toward providing excellent schools for all children. They should sacrifice their time, their resources, and their expertise to this goal. But they should not sacrifice their children to it prior to it being in place.
THIS! Yes. This is what he thinks... but he may be willing to sacrifice the children.
One thing we discussed (we're Catholic, btw) is that if we have a pastor who is doing great things to reform his parish's elementary school, we should support him in those efforts. I agree, we should, but I want to support him and not sacrifice the children. Once the school is at a certain level of better-ness, then we can consider enrollment.
(I say this because our pastor is actually reforming his school and bringing a lot of Classical Education into it - we are not a diocese that adopted Common Core, thank goodness - and this is all good!)
That said, the cost of private school is something we could likely never afford so it probably is a moot point.
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LOL. I got all excited about the topic and forgot to address you, cmb5. Welcome to the boards! I agree with the others that you are wise to table the conversation. So much of the debate forces itself on you as you navigate playdates and preschools and kindergartens; you and your DH will probably revisit this discussion many times.
Hah - no worries! Thank you!
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When Aristotle's ideal is not even possible, and America it is sooooo not possible, responsible parents have no choice but to consider alternatives. Well, they could always choose to lie to themselves about homogenous and equal education in their city, but the honest thing would be to consider alternatives.
Do some research on schools in your nearest city. Compare the mostly black inner city schools with the mostly white (and middle to upper middle class) schools on the edge of the city, or in the nearest suburbs, and you will inevitably find that the former are a third world country and the latter are a country club. Aristotle and his world are not here.
We are moving in the next 18 months, which is another reason why we have tabled the discussion. You make some very good points though. I think his response would be that yes, Aristotle's world is not here. And Aristotle's ideal may not have existed even then, but that since it is an ideal, we should be doing what we can to achieve that ideal. And to him, homeschooling is in a way, running away from the problem rather than working to fix it. :glare:
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I would approaching it from the angle that: Aristotle was talking about something that he had not experienced. His views were theoretical. He had grown up in a society with small group or one-on-one instruction, and thought that education should be a public good for all. If Aristotle had lived to see the cons as well as the pros of classroom education, he might have revised his opinion.
YES! I have mentioned that before and I think it resonated with him. The education Aristotle was speaking of was in a forum. The students would meet and be educated by philosophers (not experts in math, philosophers of math!). It wouldn't be 8 hours of lecture and then homework, but the teacher proposing the topics and the students working and discussing them. So very different than school.
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Your problem will probably take care of itself when the time comes and he sees his children are not getting an adequate education (assuming you are in one of the many public districts that are inadequate). Seeing your own kid flushed down the public school toilet machine has a way of changing minds.
Right! I agree. He agrees that the education received won't be adequate but that the fact that it is "public" (in the sense that its communal, it could mean private education as well) is a big concern.
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I think Aristotle lived in a smaller, more homogenous city than I do. I wonder what the "one end" is/was? This morning there was a news report about controversy being stirred up by new state testing. When was multiple choice invented? After Aristotle, obviously. So public education does not wholly resemble what it did during Aristotle's time, that might be a consideration. Interesting topic! Can't wait to hear other responses.
Welcome!
I'll have to ask my husband more about what "the end" is. I know it has something to do with a general idea of "the good". The idea is that the end/goal of man/life is to achieve good/happiness/something-along-those-lines.
I agree, and my husband basically agrees, that the current schooling system is not fulfilling this quote either.
(off to try to reply to everything! :) )
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My husband is a philosopher, specializing in Aristotle's Intellect. We are only in the preschool phase of homeschooling. We have decided to table discussion of future schooling beyond that for now because we simply do not see eye-to-eye (and our children are 8 months and 2.5 years, so I'm ok with this!). That said, his argument's against homeschooling stem from this:
"And since the whole city has one end, it is manifest that education should be one and the same for all, and that it should be public, and not private--not as at present when everyone looks after his own children separately, and gives them separate instruction of the sort which he thinks best." (from Aristotle's Politics)
I don't want to "convince" him to agree with me but I am trying to engage the conversation more and address his concerns. Has anyone had discussions similar to this that could shed some light for me (and him!)?
(Oh and I'm new! Loving looking around the boards!)
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Homeschooling with an Aristotelian Husband
in The Chat Board
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Oh he doesn't have a plan. He's a philosopher, he lives in the loft. ;)
I mentioned earlier in the thread... his thought is that if our local parochial school is doing good and is reforming (for instance our parish is moving towards more classical education at the moment), that we should support the school by sending our kids there. Because if we all keep our children home, then the support won't be there and likely the reform won't happen.
I see his argument and agree with it to a certain degree, I just think many Catholic schools are subject to the same sorts of issues as public schools and are often just as mainstream. Same with many private schools, unless they are specifically geared otherwise.