Michael12
-
Posts
76 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Blogs
Classifieds
Store
Posts posted by Michael12
-
-
My point about Charlotte's Web was that, while not on the RC book list, it is a more recent book (1952) that is included in many school (and homeschool) curricula. Lots of kids read it, and some turn out bad. Back in the day, lots of people read McGuffey (or - gasp - even G. A. Henty!) and turned out fine.
Secondly, I'm not missing the lack of parental involvement (or TV or sugar). I'm just not addressing that when I'm talking about the book list.
If I remember correctly, Robinson does acknowledge the need to learn material that is more recent than 75 years (or whatever cutoff - the Encyclopedia Britannica included is from 1911). Again, not math and science, those are already covered through non-public domain books. My assumption is that families would devise their own methods and find their own material for this, just like for religion and foreign languages which are not included in the RC. Part of the philosophy of the RC seems to be that we should understand the present by learning its historical foundations. Those old books are how it is done best, in the opinion of RC. Of course, others could have different approaches to achieve the same goal. Still others might have an entirely different philosophy of how we should understand the present for their own reasons. I wouldn't expect that last group to agree with the book choices at all.
I'm not convinced that those books with lists (hypothetical or real) have the same objectives as the RC list. For example, the 1001 Books You Must Read Before You Die list has no mention of Lincoln or Washington (George or Booker T.) No Cicero. No Caesar. No Machiavelli. It's got Sherlock Holmes, but not Oliver Wendell Holmes. I'm sure it's a very nice list, but clearly it's not trying to do the same thing. You can read all of those books, and I doubt you'd gain much knowledge about algebra. I will say, to its credit, it has no Bobbsey Twins.
Lastly, I'm not advocating that anyone be relieved of their hard-earned $200.
-
Maybe I'm mistaken, but "a giant pile of 75+ year old books" seems to be used derogatorily. Surely not all of those old books are bad, are they? One part of the RC philosophy is that it's better to read historical accounts by the people who were there than to read watered-down summaries with modern-day biases imposed on events and thinking of the past. The fact that a huge portion of history took place more than 75 years ago shouldn't be a disqualifier, right? Is there something especially bad about reading Up From Slavery by Booker T. Washington? Or George Washington's diaries? Or Abraham Lincoln's speeches? There's a whole lot more that could be mentioned. And again, the science and math texts aren't 75+ years old.
It seems that some people think the whole curriculum hinges on some of the lower level fiction that is included (because we're not addressing the Dickens and Shakespeare selections, right? And Little Women and Heidi are still OK, yes?). I'm not saying that those lower level selections are the greatest thing in the world, or that there aren't a whole lot of wonderful books that could be read instead. But there's a whole lot more included that seems to be getting painted with the same broad brush. Again, guilt by association.
And I daresay that not every human being in the history of the world who was deprived of books newer than 75 years old ended up as a racist serial killer. There is no correlation between children who learned on McGuffey Readers and all the evil in the world since. And bad kids like the Columbine killers probably encountered Charlotte's Web and the like at some point.
I also think learning "everything they need to know in life" by reading those books is not a claim that has been made by the RC. It seems to be a straw man argument. I certainly don't believe that I learned everything I needed to know in life during my 12+ years with the public school curriculum. Why would we assume that nothing else goes on outside of this curriculum? Maybe it's not the same for every family or even every child. Has no one else ever read something that wasn't on the "assigned" list?
-
6
-
-
Are the "vast majority of the books on the RC" really racist? The G. A. Henty books are often mentioned (and is it really all of them or just some?) - but vast majority? Are the math and science and economics and law books all racist? Is it all the literature and all the history? Is this a case of "guilt by association"?
-
2
-
-
Excellent - another great source. I was initially thinking more about the picture books. Authors like Lenski and Bemelmans and Seuss weren't around until the 1930s, and I daresay the evolution of printing processes constrained what was possible in two and four colors. This greatly enhanced the chances for literary culture to be pushed.
Totally agree that things don't just happen out of the blue. Another hidden factor with children's books was the much later (1965) Elementary and Secondary Education Act that the U.S. government passed. Schools had piles of money to spend on their libraries, and publishers struggled to keep up with the demand. There are a lot of wonderful, innovative, late-1960s books out there which might never have existed.
Unfortunately, much of today's library world has no sense of history (or even of quality) and has weeded all the great stuff to make room for things that are thought to be good simply because they are new.
-
3
-
-
I've been perusing a 1939 "500 Books for Children" (http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED542492.pdf), and it's striking how different that list is from the Hardy one, less than 50 years later.
-
1
-
-
Age 15?
A Separate Peace (1959) and To Kill a Mockingbird (1960) stand out from the rest of the ones you mentioned. Seems like you are looking for older (say, 1810-1910?) titles?
Tess of the d'Urbervilles
Great Expectations
Anne of Green Gables
Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm
maybe Melville short stories like Bartleby the Scrivener
Hans Brinker
A Girl of the Limberlost
The Railway Children
Pollyanna
Maybe some Stevenson and Scott and Twain, depending on interests.
-
Citation styles are largely a thing of the past thanks to software (Zotero, RefWorks, EndNote, etc.). Once you have your bibliographic information stored (entered manually, in the worst case, but saved with a mouse click for many online sources), you type your paper in MS-Word and insert your citations as necessary. The references list at the end is a single click. Changing every instance to a different style (from MLA to APA or whatever) is a single click. Students do still need to know when to cite. I don't see knowing any one style as an equivalent to not using a calculator (or whatever analogy you'd like). The simple principle of citation is enough - you are supplying the details to make your citation findable by later readers.
What really matters is the process: picking a good topic and focusing, understanding how to find the good information sources and being able to discriminate between good and bad sources, how to pick out the appropriate bits, making the decision to either quote or paraphrase, and then organizing it so that it is persuasive. My analogy when teaching this is to imagine a trial lawyer presenting a case and calling up expert witnesses - who do you choose? what order do you put them in? The other thing is that kids need to see models - how are you supposed to do a good job of something if you've never seen what a good job looks like? I certainly wasn't reading "research articles" as a kid in grade school. I remember doing outlining work in elementary school, and I think that's appropriate for that level.
I took a history class as a junior in high school that required four research projects over the course of the year. This meant supervised library work, notecards to hand in (quotes as well as bibliography cards), and roundtable seminar discussions with 6 or 8 other kids (teacher floating between the 4 or 5 different simultaneous discussions). Only the last of these four projects was required to move into the next step for a full-fledged written paper (this was back in the days of typewriters). I think the same year I did a significant research paper in English class. Those were the main ones - certainly nothing of consequence back in elementary school.
My second master's degree required a lot of writing. I've also published two books and a bunch of scholarly articles. Writing is a big part of what I do on a daily basis. I never felt unprepared because I wasn't forced to do APA citations for a "research paper" in elementary school.
-
1
-
-
When was his childhood? And/or about when was the book published? Definitely a picture book? Not a juvenile novel or middle grade book?
In the meantime, I might suggest http://www.coalregion.com/amazon/children.php
-
I realize the original query was for novels for older kids, but in all those lists I didn't see mention of three favorite books in our home: The Birds' Christmas Carol by Kate Douglas Wiggin, A New Coat for Anna by Harriet Ziefert, and The Christmas Day Kitten by James Herriot. The first is a short novel and the other two are picture story books.
We also have an anthology called "A Classic Christmas" that must have been a gift at one point recently. It's handy to leave around and pick up and just flip open because there are so many good stories and poems in one place. It's very suitable for older kids and adults, too. It has well-known stories as well more obscure works by well-known authors. See the full contents by doing the "Look Inside" here:
-
1
-
-
There are three instruments that are mandatory in our house before the age of 10: piano, recorder, and ukulele. Each was chosen for particular reasons.
Voice comes before these, of course, and it continues on as other instruments are added. Voice trains the ear, refines the sense of pitch, and cultivates balance and blend with other singers. Things like harmony are heard but handled more intuitively, not explained and notated. It's just a natural extension from nursery rhymes. As parents, we stress folk songs and church music, but we also just invent our own songs every day, either piggybacking on existing melodies or improvising new ones. The idea that music is something where you need a composer and an engraved score and paid union rehearsals is not what we want. Music is just there - like air.
Piano lays all the notes out in front of you so you can grasp the basics of pitch and intervals. It is great for teaching counterpoint (two or more lines working against each other), dynamics, articulation, and other nuances. Note reading is treble and bass clefs and both hands are used to do different things. It is a great starting instrument because you press the right button, you get the right note. You can concentrate on learning other aspects. The fixed pitch develops the ear, which helps all the other instruments (including voice) where pitch can drift. Of course, piano can be continued to the nth degree, with all kinds of repertoire. But I'm talking just about a basic understanding and competency. A weighted action digital keyboard would work fine for this purpose.
Recorder develops breath control, tonguing, finger precision (here the two hands work towards only one goal), and the importance of a single line. Note reading is treble clef only and fairly constrained. It is a great instrument for duets, trios, etc. We own a set (Soprano, Alto, Tenor, and Bass), but you could get a lot of work done with just a soprano. Also, there is a well established body of classical literature, both solo and ensemble, to draw from.
Ukulele is taught only for chords and accompaniment, using chord symbols not note reading and melody playing. It is far easier to learn than guitar and the payback is immediate. The main purpose is to understand basic functional harmony and song form. A little bit of improvisation is taught - the idea that you don't need 100% detailed notation and that what you do can vary from performance to performance. This can then be translated to piano when ready. Guitar is the next step if there is interest. That's where you have enough of a range to delve into melody, counterpoint, etc. and that's where there is a body of literature for study. It's also more appropriate for larger hands and bodies. But ukulele isolates important aspects of music that are too often overlooked in piano lessons or in band/orchestra. And it's easier to accompany yourself when singing than on piano.
These instruments can be combined in various ways for little chamber groups to teach the fundamentals of ensemble playing and the responsibility of holding one's own part.
Of course, additional instruments are encouraged. We have many in the house. Any child who is competent at these three can very easily transfer a whole lot of musical knowledge, fine motor development, a well-developed ear, and a decent understanding of the discipline, time, and effort required to master an instrument.
I can't say that this approach would fit every home, but it's how it is in ours. Music is an essential part of our family culture, and it is thoroughly integrated, not a "frill" to be tacked on or dropped later. It's right up there with books.
-
1
-
-
Well, the books themselves are certainly "dated" - but that's kind of the idea. If you are looking for something new and shiny, I wouldn't think that this would fit the bill. The stress is on learning history by reading the original sources (in English translations).
Here's a site with much of the RC booklist linked to free web sources.
https://homeschoolfreestuff.wordpress.com/books-for-reading/robinson-booklist/
For the most part, the curriculum is not religion based, though a handful of the books are Protestant Christian (King James Bible, Young Folks Bible, Pilgrim's Progress, The Holy War, Institutes of Christian Religion, etc.). By no means is the science based on Creationism, if that's the concern.
There have been other threads on this here, so a search (or a site-limited Google search) might be helpful.
-
If my knowledge of public schooling consisted only of my own personal experiences as a public school student, I would have a much higher opinion of it. Of course, that was just one district and it was a long time ago. Certainly back when I started teaching, I still planned to send my future kids to public schools. But my years teaching in three different districts (as well as seeing how my hometown schools went downhill) gave me a very different view. Things have changed, and the way to cover the content and achieve the standards you want is to do it yourself. Subsequently reading a lot of homeschool propaganda like Guterson, Holt, Gatto, Esolen, et al. just helped me grasp how widespread and how entrenched the kinds of things I observed were. Those books also clarified the reasoning behind what public schools were doing. So many of the problems that are built into the public schools can be resolved through homeschooling. Of course, it's very tough and it requires many, many sacrifices, but no public school will ever consider making those changes because they are based on a totally different model and their priorities are not your particular kid(s). But I don't think anyone reading this here needs to be convinced on this.
-
3
-
-
It would be helpful to know the brands/models of the bad ones too.
-
1
-
-
In many college situations, the education program is designed to prepare the student for working in the public education world. It's just a practicality of things - especially in state schools. You are there to get the "admission ticket" which is the state certification that allows you to teach in that state's public schools. Teaching material beyond what is immediately relevant to that is, to them, superfluous. Totally agree that one needs to take charge of one's own education and that homeschooling presents a much wider view of what that can mean.
-
4
-
-
It was a factor, not the only one by any means.
Many teachers are frustrated by their district administrations. Even the good teachers are not allowed to make their own choices (based on their knowledge and experience) on how best to teach students. Schools change their approaches on a regular basis, basically just for the sake of change (and to purchase some shiny new curriculum). In spite of all this change and research, schools are getting worse, not better.
I also saw a whole lot of mediocre teachers.
A good book on this is David Guterson's Family Matters: Why Homeschooling Makes Sense. http://www.amazon.com/Family-Matters-Homeschooling-Makes-Sense/dp/0156300001
-
7
-
-
So obedience is bad because it's closely related to a hierarchical family structure? Hmmm. And by hierarchy - what does that mean? That parents are not the equals of their children in every way and there is a parent-to-child direction in which things such as this flow? Surely there is some scientific area of study that looks at how children's brains develop and has established that adult brains and children's brains are different, yes? If so, why would it be a good idea to treat these two different things as the same? Not only do parents have fully developed brains, but they also have the experience (and possibly the accompanying wisdom) gained from having "been there and done that." Hierarchy (meaning that parents are in a higher position than their children) makes all the sense in the world to me. Yes, of course, children and parents are both living human beings, created in the image and likeness of God, worthy of dignity and respect, etc. etc. but the idea that children should be giving directions to their parents, or that everyone in a family should be equals just sounds like a recipe for disaster. I've seen it bad enough with parents who let their kid scuttle grown up plans by offering a choice instead of presenting a course of action. "We were thinking about going out to dinner. Would you like to do that?" "No." If there is no hierarchy, when exactly does a child become an equal member of the family society who is able to veto parental decisions?
-
Group lessons for a short time can be a good low-pressure way to gauge interest. My hometown had a summer program that ran every weekday morning for 8 weeks, I think. One class (30 or 40 min.?) option was an introduction to a particular instrument in a setting of say, 8-10 kids. Over a few years I got experience with several instruments: clarinet, guitar, harp, snare drum, and piano. The first on that list ended up being my fourth grade band instrument the following year (just did small group pull-out lessons in school, never anything else). That summer program also offered a full band class, so that was an introduction to playing with others. The last instrument I continued with outside lessons starting in first grade: one year sharing a lesson with a friend, after that private. The other instruments were just fun summer experiments (though I later did more with those and other instruments). I don't think group lessons are very beneficial after the beginner stage, though they are better than nothing at all.
In some situations (notably public schools), teachers of small group lessons have the opportunity to regroup students as disparity becomes evident. No one really benefits when you have kids at very different levels together. This might not be a possibility for private teachers who are locked into fewer choices (beginner/intermediate/advanced) for their groups. A fast-moving beginner still probably isn't ready for the intermediate group.
I think there is a distinction to be made between lessons and ensembles. In small group lessons, some duets/trios/etc. are appropriate, but the joy of making music together with others shouldn't really take away from the individual weekly instruction time. So, ideally, have weekly private lessons then find opportunities to play with others. Unstructured encounters work nicely for this - like a play date. Lack of these informal experiences can lead to burnout. But remember, they are additional.
-
2
-
-
The Fujikawa book is very pretty to look at and enjoyable in a casual way, but it has some shortcomings for serious study. Some of the poems are only excerpts, and this is not mentioned. Some have words altered (or even entire stanzas omitted - possibly unintentionally). Also, some do not name the known author. Of course, the Berquist book is kind of the opposite - not pretty at all, but wonderful for the serious student.
-
1
-
-
World War II:
Barne, Kitty: We'll Meet in England (1943)
Benary-Isbert, Margot: Castle on the Border (1956)
Benary-Isbert, Margot: Dangerous Spring (1961)
Benary-Isbert, Margot: Rowan Farm (1954)
Benary-Isbert, Margot: The Ark (1953)
Benchley, Nathaniel: Bright Candles (1974)
Bishop, Claire Huchet: Pancakes-Paris (1947)
Bishop, Claire Huchet: Twenty and Ten (1952)
Buck, Pearl S.: Dragon Seed (1941)
de Jong, Dola: Return to the Level Land (1947)
de Jong, Dola: The Level Land (1943)
de Jong, Meindert: The House of Sixty Fathers (1956)
de Vries, Anne: Journey Through the Night (1960)
Haugaard, Erik C.: The Little Fishes (1967)
Holm, Anne: North to Freedom (1963)
Levitin, Sonia: Journey to America (1970)
McSwigan, Marie: All Aboard for Freedom! (1954)
McSwigan, Marie: Snow Treasure (1942)
Savery, Constance: Enemy Brothers (1943)
Senje, Sigurd: Escape! (1964)
Serraillier, Ian: The Silver Sword (1959)
Shemin, Margaretha: The Little Riders (1963)
Stiles, Martha Bennet: Darkness over the Land (1966)
Streatfeild, Noel: When the Sirens Wailed (1974)
Tunis, John: His Enemy, His Friend (1967)
Tunis, John: Silence over Dunkerque (1962)
Van Stockum, Hilda: The Winged Watchman (1962)
Voronkova, L.: Little Girl from the City (1948)
Dust Bowl:
Cooper, Michael: Dust to Eat (2004)
Gates, Doris: Blue Willow (1940)
Hesse, Karen: Out of the Dust (1997)
-
1
-
-
...and if you like The Good Master, definitely get The Singing Tree (1939). Talk about a crying book: to read it with the knowledge (that the characters and even the author didn't have) of what was coming up next in European history is just crushing. The setting is World War I, but I don't know if it's better for kids to read this before or after studying World War II. Maybe before and then let them come back to it when they are older.
I also wonder about reading certain of Seredy's works in some kind of sequence, starting with The White Stag (1937). She kind of does a prefiguring of that stuff in a chapter of The Good Master (1935), but if one were following a chronological path, The White Stag would come first and The Chestry Oak (1955) would come after The Open Gate (1943), which would follow the two Jancsi books. The Singing Tree is the only one that is truly a sequel.
Anyway you do it, Seredy is a master storyteller - and a wonderful artist, too! She contributed so much to children's literature in that area alone: collaborations with Carol Ryrie Brink, Ruth Sawyer, Elizabeth Janet Gray, Margery Bianco, Doris Gates, Andre Norton, and more.
-
2
-
-
I really wasn't planning to listen, but I caved. SWB was mostly fine, but I didn't find anything especially revelatory. But come on, Sarah Mackenzie has never heard of Mrs. Piggle Wiggle by Betty MacDonald, the Dark Is Rising series by Susan Cooper, and Centerburg Tales by Robert McCloskey - and that's just in this one episode! I can understand not having read all of them, but it's like she is hearing these titles mentioned for the first time in her life! I still can't understand why someone with such a lack of expertise is assuming the role of some kind of guru.
-
6
-
-
The Way of the Storyteller by Ruth Sawyer. This is a very useful book on a number of levels.
-
1
-
-
The Call of the Wild.
-
There are a number of references to Charlotte Mason in The Christian Science Monitor in the 1920s and 1930s. There was also a feature article in 1952: "Famed Alma Mater of Many Teachers Celebrates Its Diamond Jubilee" about Charlotte Mason College for Teachers at Ambleside. That seems to be the last mention until 2000, when a homeschooling article appeared in the Monitor.
-
2
-
How to Choose an Instrument for your Child
in General Education Discussion Board
Posted
One thing to understand about young kids and instrumental music is that woodwind and brass instruments come as the full-size adult models. String instruments, on the other hand, come in fractional sizes so you can get a 1/8 or 1/16 - down to a 1/64! - size violin. Another thing is that brass and woodwind instruments are best started after adult teeth are in and settled. Fourth grade is good to start, particularly if by the midpoint of that year the faster moving kids can have opportunities to thrive. I agree with an earlier poster that piano and recorder are wonderful foundations for any further studies.