rowan-tree
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Posts posted by rowan-tree
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Last bump, I promise.
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This church is anti-Islam and has an, umm, old fashioned view of women. Not saying those who agree shouldn't give them, money... just a heads up for those who don't.
If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is naked, give him dress.
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Yeah, I'm sure there are no other religions like that.:001_rolleyes:
This is pretty much the only statement of substance in your last post. I think that means we're peetering out. Thanks for sticking with it this far. I think I'm done for now on this topic. Maybe we can give it a go later. So, if you want the last word, go for it.
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Which makes your OP either aimless or disingenuous.
This comment reveals you've forgotten the content of the OP, where I asserted my position. If you think it is disingenuous to assert a position as a means to engage other folk who both agree and disagree, then I suppose you can add that to the list of things I've been labeled during my first short week of posting. I happened to have benefited from this discussion.
Don't you mean to ask me if I find that to be arrogant? That is not something that I would say out of the blue on an multiple faith board, no matter what my private belief.
You wouldn't? And yet that's exactly what you did.
Couching phrases in "I language" goes a long way... especially in a diverse forum. This is not an explicitly Christian forum, and we are asked to respect others holding different beliefs.
It goes without saying that when I post something, it's what I believe. If others disagree that I represent them, they have the liberty to speak up, as they often do.
Yeah, I'm sure there are no other religions like that.:001_rolleyes:
I wasn't making a distinction between Xy and other religions on that point. I was making a distinction btn Xy and secularism. However, the more I think about it, the less inclined I am to hold it. Every position requires loyalties and personal allegiances.
What annoys me is the claim that secularism is somehow "neutral" and therefore a more appropriate form of education than a religious education. Neutral does not equal right. And it certainly does not equal "rational."
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Is it ok to bump this up?
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Trust in an outside authority is not religion, unless it's a religious authority. You're choosing to define religion as synonymous with faith or trust in any authority. If you choose to define religion in such a broad way, then why did you even bother asking the original question? Everything would be religion, which would make "religion" rather meaningless.
Well, that is the question. I think that trust in an outside authority is a religious act, although I recognized, as you point out, that this is not the generally understood definition of religion - which is normally associated with something institutionalized. But the real difference, I'm saying, between the groups of people who adhere to a set of beliefs and the individuals who choose another belief-set, is not merely that the former can be called a "religion" and the other not, but that the former is a collective while the latter is an individual. The faith demands upon the members of a religion are the same essential faith demands upon the individuals who aren't part of a particular group (is that possible?) The belief in the non-supernatural is just as much a 'religious' belief as the belief in the supernatural. Both require faith. The curriculum an educator chooses to impose, then, cannot be neutral or without an interpretive framework. That interpretive framework (worldview, as our Catholic friend, above, called it) has so much in common with any framework an organized religion suggests, that I would identify it as its own religion. Either way, you have to believe in things that can't be seen.
It is arrogant not because of what you believe, but rather because you state as fact why others don't.
Again, I'd say that to formulate an understanding as to why others don't believe something is essentially the same as atheists suggesting that Christians believe what they do because it "comforts" them - as someone in this thread suggested. Why didn't you think that was arrogant?
You are the only one in this thread speaking for those who don't share your beliefs.
I'm the only one speaking, and I may be one of the few who hold this position, but, historically, this has been the Christian position, and I think you can see from Romans 1:18-22 (which I paraphrased) that my position is consistent within the Christian faith.
I merely said that Christianity is a religion and requires faith. I hardly think that's arrogant, offensive, or objectionable.
No, I wasn't saying you were being arrogant. And, yes, Christianity requires faith in a peculiar way, i.e., it requires faith in a person - not just that He exists, but more - the requirement to place our trust in Him and to be loyal to Him.
My distinctions had more to do with the aspects and qualities of religion that are concerned with the nature of knowledge, and since education is concerned with knowledge, I saw the two (religion and education) as related.
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Many of you are interested in sending assistance to the areas affected by the recent hurricanes. If so, here's a church that has some need and it looks like they will be active in recovery efforts beyond their own congregation. I'm sure any help will be greatly appreciated. From what I understand they were very active in helping out with hurricanes Katrina and Rita.
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But you have chosen to equate faith with religion, as per the OP. They are not the same thing. You specifically asked if education could be "non-religious" not if education at some level requires faith in an authority (teacher, text book writer, primary sources, etc.). Education can be non-religious yet at some level still require faith. I think a better work, however, is trust. We dig down far enough until we either trust our sources, or decided that we cannot be certain.
I think that the "digging down deep" part is an act of faith as well, i.e., faith in your own rational process. I think Nietzsche and others has shown that such an approach logically ends in skepticism. I personally, am a commonsense realist and don't think rationalism, with its system of internal verification, has gotten us very far.
At bottom, we rely upon external testimony as the foundation of our knowledge, and although we employ our rational faculties of discernment, we incorporate each foundational axiom as an act of faith.
This is trusting in an outside authority, and we do it with religious zeal. This is why I don't think education can be non-religious, strictly speaking. Rather, it's a question of which religion.
It is arrogant to claim that Christianity is "rejected" solely because its life changing implications are just too much for some people. Try Jainism if you want to talk life changing implications.
Am I be arrogant again simply because I believe what I'm saying to be true? We all have theories of why this or that thing is the way that it is. We all have theories by which we understand the nature of the world and humans around us. Such theories do not make one arrogant.
What can be known about God has been clearly demonstrated in the world - His divine nature and his godhead, because He has testified of these things through His creation. Men know these things in their hearts. They can't help but be struck with the majesty of creation and even of their own fearsome and wonderful constitution, understanding themselves to be created and, therefore, accountable to their Creator for the way they live their lives. But they reject this knowledge and are not thankful in their hearts, and therefore rather than becoming wise, they become fools.
This is what Christians believe. Does that make them arrogant? No more arrogant, I would say, than anyone who claims to be right about their beliefs and who formulates reasons why others believe what they believe.
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I always taught my boys to walk away and NEVER give the first punch in a fight.
That's funny. 'Cause, although, my dad and mom always discouraged fighting, my dad told my brother that, if someone wants to fight to remember two things: 1) Hit him in the nose first, and 2) always get in the first punch (especially when my brother got older and the first punch often determined the outcome).
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Bumping.
rowan-tree seems to have abandoned this thread without returning to at least clarify her working definitions of faith and religion. Or why the faith of others is, in and of itself, authenticating wrt to Christianity.
Sorry, I've been tied up. Alright, back to it.
My point is that everything we believe requires faith. Faith being the "inclination to believe." I get this understanding from the philosopher, Alvin Plantiga who wrote a very readable epistemology "Warrant: The Current Debate."
My point with Lincoln was that, the same warrants one has for believing in the existence and the actions of anyone for whom you have no direct contact is the same as for any other. Therefore, to believe in the persons, acts and events of Jesus requires no different sort of faith than belief in Lincoln.
The faith is not of a different order or nature, faith being fundamental to any knowledge (again - to know anything at all you have to believe it). The difference is not that faith is required, but that we are inclined to believe/disbelieve something based on the demands it places upon us.
Christianity is rejected, not because its claims are implausible, but rather, because, of the implications for one's life believing the claim that Jesus rose from the dead (and is therefore King of humanity and requires every human's allegiance) requires of that person.
That clearer?
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I grew up in small town Mississippi. I was amazed at the courage of some of the boys I knew. I remember one boy, who in ninth grade, got his teeth pressed through his bottom lip when a nasty opponent stepped on his face while he was face up on the bottom of a pile up. Everyone was aghast at the blood. The coach wanted to sit him out. The boy wanted to keep playing. The coach asked the dad. The dad said, if he wants to play, let him. He played out the whole rest of the (long) game.
When I got to college, there was another boy I knew from McComb, MS who told a group of friends (you know how boys like to brag about their "battles") about how he and his brother grew up duking it out all the time. Really! They would spend whole days doing it. The girls were always appalled, of course, which egged the boys' stories on. But those boys I knew who grew up standing up for themselves turned out to be some brave men, although I can't say much for their other traits.
But our schools always had a zero-tolerance policy for fighting. This applied, of course, mostly to the boys (although I've seen some girls get into it, too, and I had my share of spats). Is this right?
One of my favorite bloggers (who I've referrenced here before) wrote a blog on this. It sort of seems counter-intuitive to a woman who wants her young men to be men of peace. On the other hand, I see the point and think it's a good one, and I've come over to this view after reading Doug Wilson's thoughts on the matter (which book the blogger references).
Thoughts???
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My DD begs me to do all the voices when I read to her, and I try when I'm reading picture books, but I just can't do it for chapter books. She loves audiobooks, so I know she misses that extra element when I read aloud, but argh! I mean, I certainly don't read in a flat monotone. I emote and inflect like crazy :lol: I just can't do the voices--it makes something I don't totally love almost unbearable. Am I the only one who doesn't do this?
Also, I tend to get a sore throat when I read aloud, so it's hard for me to read past a chapter or two, depending on how long they are. I know some of you spend hours a day reading aloud. How do you manage? Is there some trick to not straining your throat?
TIA!
Yes! Not so much a sore throat, though, but I lose my voice if I get too into it - like yesterday when I was reading Lewis' "The Last Battle" from the Narnia series and trying to growl out the voice of a Calormen.
I think it has mostly to do with being hydrated! If I drink enough water, I don't have near the problem. Also, if I try to use my diaphragm rather than my chest voice (like when singing).
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Thanks for your advice, everyone--next time we'll just take a break and then come back to it. :)
This homeschool mom has two very different children who both experience math meltdowns. She uses different approaches for both, and different curricula. I highly recommend her as a resource.
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Extensive contemporary historical accounts. His own writings. Photographs. Federal records. Military records. Death certificate. I suggest you read the introductory chapter of any history book (even SOTW) if you need a refresher as to how historians go about their business.
Thus, my point. Ancient historians went about their business, too, and in much the same way. You accept the fact of Abe's presidency based on authenticating documentation. You find your sources credible. It's an act of faith. You're not asking anyone to prove it to you or wishing for a time machine. What's the difference between that and any other religion's followers?
Sorry to leave with a question hanging. I'll leave you the last word and have a look tomorrow. 'Night.:seeya:
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Because "outside authority" does not equate to "divine authority". Outside authority can be tested and proven. Divine authority can not.
What kinds of tests can you contrive to prove Lincoln was the 16th president?
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Why wouldn't it grow, with all its similarities to the many pagan religions of the time?
Yikes! What similarities are you thinking of? As I said above, all the pagan religions "of the time" taught the impossibility of a man raising from the dead.
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It's not authenticating to say, "I believe because others believe." It's circular.
Perhaps. But we all believe things that others tell us, simply relying upon the warrant of their credibility. If we find a credible source, we cast ourselves upon it, even being unable to authenticate it. My point is that faith is essential to knowledge itself. How then can education be "secular" if its very nature requires faith in an outside authority? Again, this implies that our choice is not "secular ed or religious ed?" but, rather "which religious ed?"
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And exactly how is this authenticating?
For it to be sustained without the visible presence of its leader in conjunction with the promise of his return.
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The fact that it spread as it did was due to rulers proclaiming it to be the official religion, not because people willingly chose to believe it.
Actually, it grew fastest within its original, persecuted context.
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Jesus lived in Egypt, so it's not hard to believe he may have shared stories of their faith or even the Hindu beliefs he may have learned about during the lost years, with his followers.
I went back through my posts in this thread to see if I'd been trollish, because, given my unfortunate inclination to be mean-spirited, I might have easily stepped over the edge. But I've tried to amend my ways somewhat even in this thread, and honestly attempted to dull my edges. I only offered reasons for finding Xy authentic because it exemplified my point of credibility and that in our respective educational contexts, we all attribute value to outside authorities, which is, in essence, a religious act. That was the point this thread helped me to formulate. My thanks to all contributors.
Re: the above quoted section... Egyptian mythology is very clear that it is only gods who die and rise again. And although Jesus claimed to be divine, he never attributed his future resurrection to his divine nature. Neither does Xy claim that He rose because He was divine. Rather, He rose because of His righteous life. And although the other "heroes" recorded in the church's tradition were demonstrably fallen and made mistakes (e.g., Peter). These recorded instances are never glossed over or excused (which, again, I find authenticating, since other religions excuse the actions of their originators). But the claim that this man never sinned is almost as astounding as the claim the he raised from the dead. In short, the character of Christianity has its roots deep within the Jewish tradition, not Egyptian. And the idea that the Jews adapted some Egyptian construct from their time in Egypt during Joseph's day is even more absurd than the claim that Jesus developed his ideas from his stay in Egypt. With all due respect, nicely imagined, though.
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Christian loved to hold on to this... just not true. Rates
And what am I right about... I have never said my belief in God is better than yours. Where did I say that? And nasty is something you have tossed about in a number of your posts. I do think you are a troll. And I feel sorry for those on this board who truly here to learn from each other and not make fun of.
This thread was engaged in a legitimate discussion. No one was judging anyone until you threw out the word "pompous." Yes, I can be nasty. But I'm not in the mood right now. Troll? well, ... the kettle's black.
I think it's more accurate to say you don't like my posts because you don't agree with them. That's perfectly understandable. We choose the things we like. We like the things we choose. I think this brings us back to the proximity of my original question.
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You sure have been waiting an awful long time for his return.
Yep. But, then again, lots of things are happening in the meantime - like the continual growth of His kingdom. Yet another authenticating point, i.e., why should Christians continue to believe in a living man who's returning? Why so willing to wait for the Judge of the earth?
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Sorry Islam is the fastest growing are, followed by The Bahai Faith, Sikhism, Jainism, then comes Christianity. Yours maybe the largest faith currently, but I see that changing. The old pillars of the faith have fallen (Europe) and the areas with growth are competing with Islam. Jesus lived in Egypt, so it's not hard to believe he may have shared stories of their faith or even the Hindu beliefs he may have learned about during the lost years, with his followers. Why are his buddies any more "authentic" that my great aunt who says her husband visits her in a physical form. She misses him, and wants it to be true.
Nope. Christianity is still the fastest growing faith. Not sure what your sources are, but app. 6 million Muslims in the Middle East are converting to Xy each year. Furthermore, several estimates conclude that there are more Christians in China than there are people in the US and are predicting that it will be the next major Christian nation.
People believe all sorts of things just because others do, not because they make any sense. I'm so glad you have your faith and it brings you comfort. But your pompous belief that it is somehow better than all the others is just that... pompous. I feel this way about all faiths that think theirs is the best, their God is the one true God. You sure have been waiting an awful long time for his return.
Well, I suppose all "people" fall into that category. No one knows everything, which means all of us must base our beliefs upon another's testimony. That's simply the nature of knowledge and does not, in itself, either authenticate or negate any belief.
Yes, my faith brings me comfort, but I think you can see that it is not an un-thought-through faith. However, your accusation that I'm being pompous verges on the nasty. Everyone thinks they're right, else they wouldn't speak. But to think you're right doesn't make you pompous, does it?
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Uh, I certainly hope no one would take something a stranger says on the internet as a source of authority and agree. I'm simply stating my opinion based on my anthropological and philosophical studies and ponderings.
Yeah. I guess I wasn't precise enough. I meant to imply my above point that when you chose to believe something, you are relying upon an outside authority, which is what you've basically said.
Humans desire to live successfully because life is what we have. What is success in this context? Propagation of the species and the society. Again, existence is valued because it's what we have.I believe these propositions would be tautologies.
Again, you don't have to agree with me on anything. You seem to be trying to get me to say that my opinions came from a particular source or authority. Maybe that's how you operate. Personally, I collect vast amounts of information over years of reading and draw my own conclusions based on what I find to be the most logical reasoning.
No offense intended. I'm not trying to get you to say anything. ;)
Great article by Doug Wilson Re: Palin
in General Education Discussion Board
Posted
Very good article. Thanks.