SandyKC
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Posts posted by SandyKC
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This is our issue too. I would love to try giving Peter a bit of caffeine in the mornings to see if it would help him focus a bit, but I can't figure out a way to get it into him....he refuses coffee and tea no matter how much sugar/honey/milk/etc I add. He hates coke and mountain dew even if I let them sit out overnight to get rid of the carbonation. He won't/can't swallow a pill, and when I tried grinding up a bit of no doze and secretly adding it to his breakfast, he rejected the whole meal.
Wendy
Do your kids like chocolate? Chocolate milk? Or tea?
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What everybody has already said here! Writing anything by hand can be a much slower process than thinking of the answer for some kids.. In such cases, they will often have problems getting things written properly on paper. It can cause them to leave words and sentences out of papers they're writing too. Looking ahead, you might want to consider setting your DS up with Dragon Naturally Speaking software so he can dictate his papers as fast as he can talk. That will allow him to get more written in the essay without losing it while trying to write it by hand. ;-)
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Yep, sounds like a memory/recall issue.. betting your child would have a deficit that relates to "rapid naming" or labeling. It's a unique kind of cognitive hiccup that makes it difficult for a child to recall/name an "object" like a number or a letter. A child can be cognitively bright, but be unable 'name' things. Sometimes it's significant enough that a child can't remember things like a particular person's name or a pet's name, or something it is clear the child should know. It would be worth getting a comprehensive evaluation if you can.. that could help you know precisely what your child's issues out and provide insight into how best to overcome his specific issues.
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So I signed the unenroll form for PS this am. Today is DS's last day. As I was walking home I felt really bothered if this is the right thing (emotionally). The only thing nagging at me is we had glasses prescribed for DS. We saw an ophthalmologist first who said he has astigmatism she felt the glasses would help somewhat but she didn't think it was the main problem. I mentioned it to the NP (whom I don't have much confidence in, BTW), and she said she'd be on the lookout for vision concerns. She diagnosed as dyslexia (likely), dysgraphia/dyspraxia (maybe), and to treat as if he has those things.
We just got the glasses over the weekend and haven't been doing any afterschooling so I'm not sure how/if they may help. But he did say they made things clearer on his tablet on a game so now I'm worried maybe it was just a vision problem all along? I guess I can see how he's reading tonight and tomorrow and see if there's some epiphany but gosh I'm so scared I'm doing the wrong thing. My biggest issue is all his phonetic testing seems to be good. We also are waiting for a COVD appt as recommended by the Drs. Eides in cases of dyslexia diagnoses with good phonics skills.
IDK, in one way it would make sense that some vision concern would mimic dyslexia. But on the other hand, the phonics he knows is what I directly taught him with AAR (I guess), and when he reads phonics readers he does well, but with the school reading program he struggles, which goes against a pure vision concern.
So nervous, just looking for reassurance that hopefully a professional would pick this up (NP), that even if it's just his vision problems causing this that HSing to catch him up on reading and writing is probably the best anyway and may be a pretty fast process, that there's no harm in HSing to try out and if he goes back it'll be fine.
But hard facts are okay too. In retrospect I should have at least tried the glasses with reading before unenrolling him from PS. Eek! Kind-of really nervous about this whole thing now.
ETA -- also his writing goes against a pure vision concern as it's better when there's examples to copy like doing HWT, whereas independently it's illegible. That would argue against a pure vision problem, right?
Going to stay out of most of the hoopla other than my single prior post to set the facts straight. I did want to answer the question that is the title of this thread.
Plainly put, astigmatism can mimic some aspects of dyslexia/dysgraphia. Astigmatism affects visual perception, so that can affect a child's ability to read easily or write legibly. Astigmatism is corrected by glasses though, so if glasses don't correct the problem, then there could easily be something else going on.
Whether your individual child's problems are developmental vision issues or rooted in neurological dyslexia would have to be assessed by qualified professionals. The main resources for those evaluations would be a COVD qualified doctor and a neuropsychologist. Since your child could have one or the other or both, you might want to take the "most likely" route of evaluation first, and if you can easily afford it---take both routes to rule in or rule out your child's specific needs.
We *knew* our oldest had neurological issues going on, and our neuropsych eval did reveal those. However, when working with DS, his eyes would water and he complained of them hurting. He had 20/20 vision, so we had him evaluated by a COVD doc and my son also had convergence insufficiency. A year later, after DS completed vision therapy, his eyes no longer bothered him and working on reading otherwise was easier.
CONGRATULATIONS on your decision to homeschool!! :-D Know that we're all cheering you on here. It's an interesting and sometimes challenging road, but often worth every minute you pour into your child. ;-)
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Someone here is going to recommend this COVD nonsense and tell you to look into developmental optometry. Just be cautious. Its terribly expensive and completely scientifically invalid. Unproven and expensive are a bad combo IMO.
I'm sorry, but to put it in as strong of terms as you used, this is a completely ignorant, antiquated point of view that only serves to drive some moms away from the help their child potentially needs.
Perhaps you should read scientific research before calling developmental vision issues "nonsense". It is by NO means, "completely scientifically invalid," and there are definitely ocular motor issues that affect a child's visual perceptions. And those developmental issues can be corrected with what you call COVD "nonsense." http://www.covd.org/?page=Research
The reason some people end up thinking it is "nonsense" is because they pursue it when it is the WRONG solution for their child and/or they end up with an unscrupulous doctor that provides therapy when not needed. But that's no reason to throw the whole profession out the window.
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I am currently using Story of the World and Writing With Ease with my 2nd grade son. Both of these books offer a lot of review questions to check reading comprehension. My son is really struggling with this. A lot of times he pulls answers out of no where that have nothing to do with what we have just read. I have tried having him sit with me and follow along. I have tried letting him move around while he is listening. I have also tried giving him something quiet to do with his hands while he is listening. None of these seem to help much.
My son has high functioning autism, so his understanding of things in general is sometimes different than a "normal" kid. I have to reword things and repeat things to him quite a bit. His ability to recognize and read words is very good though.
Can anyone offer some suggestions on how I can help him with this comprehension issue?
Also, instead of asking him all of the review questions at the end of the reading, can I ask him questions as we are reading instead, or does he need to learn to retain the information until the end?
By all means it's GREAT to ask him questions as you are reading. It really helps kids if they can build a visualization in their minds as you read too. With Story of the World in particular, you can ask him to picture events and people in his mind and tell you what it looks like. Pay attention to his descriptive details to see if they match the story.
Lindamood Bell's Verbalizing and Visualizing program along with the "See Time Fly" series of history books is what we used to work on comprehension while learning history. You really can use the verbalizing and visualizing methods with any book though.
There are lots of programs and methods you can use to work on reading comprehension.. I've got information about V&V and teaching reading comprehension on my website at http://learningabledkids.com/reading/reading_comprehension.htm.
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Activities we used to integrate movement into our learning included walking on a treadmill while reading, rocking while reading or reciting facts, using a LARGE exercise ball to sit on instead of a chair (<--this one works good with writing activities), rocking while watching learning videos, etc.
The movements don't always have to be directly related to the learning. I think it really helps for the movements to be directly related to the learning when a child is younger, but from my observations, it seems like any movement suits kinesthetic kids as they get older.
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I was thinking about this some more this morning. Was this higher IQ the 2nd time around the GAI or the unaltered? And which cognitive therapies did you do? You list a bunch on your site, right? You did them all or some?
I'm not. There is an OT around here who will do it and advertises it, and well Lecka regularly alters the Laws of the Universe with the wonderful people she finds. :D
Now Sandy, I want to keep this going with a weird question, since we're discussing fMRIs, etc. What is your take on how the current brain research (like in Shaywitz, showing each problem to have a spot in the brain and not necessarily putting all problems in one spot) to connect to the popular term "left brain" or "right brain" for thinking process and issues? I know there are things they can clearly demonstrate, like how issues with in determinant hand dominance connect to certain language parts in the brain not being picked and solidified, and that when you get the hand dominance consistent, the brain picks the side and the language improves. Our SLP has an OT who has gotten MARVELOUS results improving language function (expressive language, retrieval, etc.) by doing OT. It seems screwy, but the evidence is there.
What I stumble over and what doesn't make sense to me (mainly because I'm a seriously dense, literal person who also couldn't accept basics like the definition of a logarithm without rehashing it in my mind EVERY TIME), is this whole idea of putting tons of DSM labels under the popular label of "right-brain dominant" and just landing everything to there. Is there any MRI evidence of that? See they get all excited when someone fits their predictions (which my ds seems to) and huffy when I say my dd (who also has her labels) doesn't.
I know it's a can of worms. It kind of goes back to our discussion though which is the way the DSM teases everything apart vs. the way, in reality, they're sort of broader, with things often going together, co-morbid. The DSM never tries to wrangle with those patterns but just isolates all the (what to me are) SYMPTOMS without seeing the CONNECTIONS.
So do you have any comments on that?
It was the calculated composite, Full Scale score on the Wechsler IQ test--first admin was probably for Children and the last was the adult version. I don't have my reports in front of me to check right now. I'd think the scales would be similar, but some of the difference might be accounted for by test differences.
We did not do all the therapies by any means! We used Brain Gym and both of my boys went through the entirety of the Lexia Cross-Trainer programs twice. I also had my boys use Omega-3s daily (Nordic Naturals), and we did a TON of cross-body patterning types of activities--Swim League and Sprint Kayaking were our ongoing activities with lots of practice every single week--for years. ;-) The boys also went through Earobics twice and we worked with Audiblox some (but I can't say we did that diligently--no one really liked it, including me).
Honestly, I don't know enough in depth about the fMRIs to have much of an opinion on the left-brain, right-brain aspects of thinking processes. With typical readers and readers with dyslexia, the word processing is shifted from the language center of the brain to the frontal lobe (where the processing is "central", so to speak). Some of the functional brain imaging shows that some people have language dominance on the right side and others have it on the left side, and that dominance is different in children than it is in adults! (see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1464420/) -- It says:
"The influence of age on language lateralization is not completely understood. Increasing left lateralization of language with age has been observed in children while the reverse has been noted in healthy young adults. It is not known whether the trend of decreasing language lateralization with age continues in the late decades of life and at what age the inflection in language lateralization trend as a function of age occurs."
Soooo, my opinion is basically that right versus left brain "thinkers" is probably popular psychology rather than a researched based fact of where processing actually takes place in a person's brain. I think we don't really know enough, fMRI-wise, yet to know how the processing develops as a child's brain matures. Questions I have:
-- Is language processing centered in the "language center" from birth, or does it start in the frontal lobe and shift to the language center sometime in infancy or toddler-hood?
--For kids with dyslexia, is the shifting of language processing delayed in moving to where it is supposed to be, or are they born with language processing occurring in the frontal lobe?
-- Is the frontal lobe processing present in all kids with phonemic awareness-based dyslexia? Or do some kids process the language in the language center and still have problems?
-- What other differences exist between LD brains? -- Executive functioning--are there fMRI differences there?
MOST interestingly, the studies show that as a child's phonemic-awareness based dyslexia is remediated, the processing of the words being read shifts from the frontal lobe to the child's language center of the brain. At that point, the child's brain begins to demonstrate "typical" brain patterns when reading that are similar to good readers. That opens the question for me, especially in regard to my DS, as to whether that shift frees up the frontal lobe to more properly develop executive functioning?
It's an interesting, convoluted world with all of the different LDs, etc. Have you seen the MRI images of Temple Grandin's brain (Asperger's) compared to a typical brain?? CHECK That OUT! (http://karenweintraub.com/KW_home2/Journalism/Entries/2013/5/1_USA_Today__Temple_Grandin_looks_at_how_The_Autistic_Brain_sees_world.html) - To me, it is just fascinating!! Is that why language skills are difficult for kids with Autism? Their brains are super-duper wired for processing everything visual that comes their way.
I guess I've asked as many questions and not really answered much of anything! :o It IS an interesting topic!
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About your sig... Did the psych say adhd? Are you going to put the dc on the coffee to see if it calms him down and helps him focus, or is that only for you? :)
LOL! There's definitely some truth to this! :D My DS "needed" his coffee in the morning to focus... I drink it now too and it helps me! ;)
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My son's visual memory iirc is one of his lowest areas, and did not improve much at all in OT. At the COVD eval, he did not say it was an area he could work on. Do you happen to know off the top of your head, that for someone who has done 2 years of school OT and about a year and a half of private OT, if there is still more I should look at for visual memory? I am just curious.
I looked back, and before OT his lowest area was motor coordination at 81. It is the area where he made the most progress in OT. (However at one time he had a 63 in articulation that was pretty depressing at the time, now he still might get a lower score on an age-normed articulation test, but he talks just fine, it is no problem. I think he scored right at 100 last time. But -- his verbal IQ is a lot higher. But he talks well enough, that is all that really matters.)
I need to get my act together wrt his handwriting, though. I am going to see if I can get some information from school. I feel like I do not know what to do locally, even though I have been asking around for a long time. No one seems to really know. But -- I have been recommended to start by talking to the school psychologist and ask him for information. He seemed very helpful when I met him the last time, so I am optimistic. I am not optimistic about getting testing through school, but I think I can at least get information.
I was talking to someone at an OT workshop yesterday, and it is to the point, it is ridiculous I don't know if my son has working memory problems or not. I have been asked before, and I do not know one way or the other. But at the same time -- if I can't find anyone vaguely local, I don't know how I am going to find out. I almost did this all last summer and then it just seemed like it was going to be too hard to do the driving.
Truthfully, Lecka, I'm surprised by an OT working on visual perceptual skills of the kind that would be addressed through developmental vision therapy.. I haven't known any OT's who focus on that as a skill area, but that's not to say they don't. I am just thinking it probably isn't a substantial part of the overall therapy plan. OT's definitely work on visual-motor integration (handwriting, copying) and that is a typical area for an OT to work on.
To me, I would think these would be two different fields where the COVD doc would be the one more skilled and trained for working on Visual-perceptual needs and the OT would be the one more skilled at working with visual-motor integration and fine motor skills.
I could totally be misunderstanding the therapies since you have seen a COVD and have been going to an OT... I'm just feeling a bit confused about the question of OT in regard to visual memory. An OT would not typically work on visual memory at all.
Since you have difficulty acquiring a working memory eval, you might try this online tool: http://www.workingmemory.com.au/free-memory-assessment-quiz/. The other thing I have recommended to parents before is to play some of the memory-matching card game with your child and try to determine if your child is good at it or has exceptional difficulty. That can be a "hint", but it is by no means a "reliable" assessment. ;-) You could also sign him up for something like BrainBuilder and see how he does as he works through the different portions of the program. If he has a lot of difficulty with the memory sections, that could provide insight too. I've been known to tell parents who can't get or afford evals to just use the "cover it anyway" approach and just go ahead and provide a program to make sure you do what you can.. There isn't any harm in doing it (except maybe a dent in the budget), so it can be worth doing.
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The perceptual issues (right-left confusion, reversals, flips) raises a flag for me, should I also go get an NP eval? She showed me a list of the symptoms of dyslexia vs vision issues and showed me the large overlap. Has anyone gone through VT, it worked but the child still has another issue? I'm wondering what to look for, as in VT helped with x but not y. Not trying to over think it, but just worried about missing an opportunity early.
Thanks
My answer would be a definitive YES on the "Has anyone gone through VT.." although we KNEW DS had neurological issues before we went for VT. We didn't find out about the need for VT until after our NP evaluation. Our son needed both. I just posted over on another thread that you might find interesting to read through...http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/531357-im-a-bit-concerned-local-covd-is-giving-friends-false-hope/ that is all about VT & Neuropsych needs.
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You know the confusing thing then is what are the implications for teaching if the CTOPP isn't likely to go up that much? Is it that the OG methods don't actually focus on the specific CTOPP skills? Or does it mean you shouldn't push *so* hard but should just get function? I'm just saying I'd feel really guilty if I assumed my need was to push for a certain level of whatever and then it turned out that was NEVER going to happen...
Your comments on the Rey-Os are fascinating! Now I'll be interested to see what happens! Yes, I'd be VERY interested to hear your before and after Rey-Os test results...
FASCINATING!! WOW! I never realized this before..
SO, on the Ray-Os for DS.
Early admin before VT and home-based cognitive enhancement: "Performance on the two recall trials of the complex figures showed standard scores of 69 on the Immediate Recall and 64 on the Delayed Recall trials. The problems ------ had with being able to organize the copy of the complex figure resulted in him not being able to remember very much of it. He was not able to keep the Complex Figure in his visual memory as a whole object, rather it was disintegrated as a collection of pieces. In the Delayed Recognition trial, he performed in the average range in the Trial when the examinee is required to look at 24 geometric shapes, half of which were in the original figure and half of which were not. This trial showed he had stored a large amount of the complex figure in his visual memory, and he could recognize the components. However, when he tried to recall this information spontaneously, he had significant difficulty."
---Note: It got into visual memory, but he couldn't find it or use it when he needed it.
High school admin after all therapies and remediation: "----- performed strongly on all three trials of the Complex Figure, earning Superior Scores on the Immediate and Delayed recalls and in the High Average range on the Recognition Trial. This performance shows ----- has a strong implicit visual memory and procedural memory..." He had a 58 point increase on the delayed recall!! WOW!
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I did use daily checklists with my guys when they were in high school. The day was done when their work was all checked off. Some days took a few hours and some days took allllll daaaaayyyy loooong, but it was at their pace for the day, whatever it happened to be. If they didn't get their work done M-F, then they had to work on the weekend.
I do think putting them in charge of their own learning made them more efficient with their school days over time. It has really served my boys well in college because they KNOW they have to get their work done and no one is going to be telling them what to do when. I think using the checklist approach throughout high school and teaching my boys how to schedule out the work in their college syllabus' as daily items has helped them tremendously.
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I can relate to a lot of things on this thread. Like the whole meds discussion. Maybe using an "experimental" approach, your DS might be willing to just see if it helps. He'd need to be aware there are usually "start-up" side effects that go away, but for kids meds help--the improvements are often immediately noticeable.
With driving, our boys got permits at 15 and practiced in school and business parking lots on Sundays for quite awhile. Neither of my guys got their licenses until they were 18. Both of my boys self-regulated to being older before getting their licenses because they were each very aware of their own difficulties with driving. Being able to discuss what was hard for them in driving and how to manage areas of difficulty (attention and processing speed) is a really important component of driving instruction for teens with different types of processing issues, and being open about issues and aware of them helped my boys make wise choices about their own driving abilities.
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My question is, what kinds of things can I do to help with the math? Should I have him memorize the addition facts? I really didn't want to do that, because I want him to understand math. I'm concerned we'll regret that later, but I honestly don't know. Maybe that's a way it's done and I just don't know about it. I've always been good at math. It just clicks, so breaking things down into smaller pieces to make it easier to understand is not a strength of mine, but with God's help and forums like this I'm really learning. I'd appreciate any tips.
Thanks in advance. Sorry to be so long. I thought background information could help.
Happy to see another Atlanta-area HSer here! :D Do you know what kind of learner your son is.. visual, kinesthetic, tactile, auditory? I'm wondering if a program like Touch Math would be good for him? Or for math fact memorization, the program Reflex Math if he likes the computer or audio-visual.
Having some degree of fluency with math facts will help him as he gets into higher levels of math, so any amount of advancement you can help him make with math facts will help him in the long run. I've shared the process our neuropsych gave us for math fact memorization on my website. It's an approach with flash cards, but not using them in the traditional way. You can also do it with a "memory" matching kind of game because sometimes its initially easier to recognize the facts, then work towards from memory recall.
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Sandy - Thanks for your insight. I'm currently reading your book and it's as if you're saying everything verbatim how I feel. I really appreciate it!
Yes, the teacher said a bunch of things off the record. I know it's political and I understand. I'm just grateful to hear the truth and have it expressed to us in a forward manner. She also knows of others in a similar situation here that did the same thing (HSing). We'll get a report in a few weeks but by then our biggest decision will have been made I think. As in, which science curriculum should I choose? :)
SOOOO MANY parents have traveled this road!! I'm thrilled you're relating to the book.. it's from my heart, although I'm not thrilled you've had to experience so many of the same things. Just know there is so much you can do at home to make things better for your DS.
It's sad the school situations are political. It's something I'd love to see changed in my lifetime, but I haven't figured out how to get the schools to be more open and how to provide the teachers in parents more insight yet. I'm praying about and considering my mission in life from here.. I really want to make it better for the kids whose parents can't homeschool. There has to be a better solution than what is out there right now. ;)
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I'd highly prefer secular. If not it'd have to be super scienteriffic. I do have BFSU on a shelf I'm going to relook at. My vague impression a year or more ago when I bought it was that it needs some prep. But I didn't even really get a chance to look at it well. Superficially I liked nancy larson but feel it's expensive and I think he likely knows grade 1 already from their word list. OTOH I'm not sure I want scripted. DS is a kinesthetic learner and advanced concepts and vocab would be fine.
Since you know DS is kinesthetic, hands-on FUN! :D One year we got ourselves a couple of award-winning science project books and set out to make things in there... Potato canon = FUN! (& Funny!). Since you'll be doing remedial work and that will be taxing on your son's brain (It WILL wear him out), having something light-hearted and not too "schooly" for science can really add an element of fun to your school day. Check out "The Way Science Works" or "How Nature Works" from DK books for fun, work through it, project types of books. One of our favs was catching caterpillars, guessing what type of butterfly or moth it'd become, feeding them, watching them form cocoons, and then coming out!! AWESOME FUN! :D Anything like that you can do to build FUN into your schooling will help you when it comes to buckling down for the hard stuff. ;)
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Please remember that YOUR journey is not someone else's journey and vice versa. I think so many of us tend to get hung up
in the comparison trap. One of the reasons we homeschool is BECAUSE of our differences. I'd like my gifted 10yo son to be further
along in his math but he's not. He's gifted linguistically but not mathematically. And the emotional maturity disconnect that comes with that
is astounding. BUT that is our journey, not yours. All any of us really do is what we THINK needs to be done. We can't ever truly KNOW until
AFTER the fact but we do the best we can anyway.
Do the best YOU can do and don't let anyone make you feel down about it! The very fact that you're concerned about the whole thing
means you're doing just fine! You are doing what YOU need to do for YOUR child/ren. And that's what counts!
This is very well said. As I was reading through, I was inclined to post, "Don't pay any attention whatsoever to what the boards say as far as teaching time goes." Things are so different with a child you're providing remedial instruction. You won't know where the "meltdown" point is until you've been working with your child for awhile. Remedial work is hard and the speed of work, tolerance for doing what is difficult for your child, your own familiarity with teaching materials (slow in the beginning) will all be factors in how long it takes.
You'll really just have to "read" the situation and your child's engagement as you go along. When you sense your child is overloaded or tuned out, it's best to take a break and come back to the task. Depending upon the level of tune-out or tantrum, your break time will vary too.
Realistically, I think in the beginning it's best to focus on your child's area of greatest need first.. say.. reading. We worked on reading EVERY day without fail, and I had a set plan for each day. Some days it went better, some days the length of time became "too much." So every day varied too, but the reading was always first.. and it virtually always got done.
Whatever came next depended upon where my sons' academic engagement level was at that precise moment. Most days we also got Math instruction in. Most days, some degree of writing. Science and social studies were "as tolerated," but often provided as a "quiet time" video after we'd done our remedial work, so it was "life" learning as someone else pointed out--it wasn't a formal lesson at that point, but it was nevertheless learning!
We set up a "plan" but were flexible in following it on a day to day basis. As my sons' abilities advanced, we got more done in a school day. My guys could tolerate more because the things that had been SOOO HARD weren't so hard any longer, so they weren't as drained and our days could be longer.
There's no real defining timeframe of what is appropriate that goes across kids with all abilities and all needs, so truly, I wouldn't put one speck of concern towards what "they say" is the proper timeframe for a school day. ;)
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Just out of curiousity --- a test of visual perceptual skills my son did, had him look at a shape and figure, and then do his best to copy it. He would copy some of the shapes good, and some he copied in very odd ways (a part too big, a part too small, two parts not touching that are supposed to touch. things on top of each other that are supposed to be next to each other). This is the kind of thing I think he did for "visual perceptual skills." Is this the kind of thing that would be meant by visual processing? I assume it is very broad and this is just one part, but do you think this is in the category of visual processing, or really a separate thing?
When he did it, they told me it could be caused by a vision problem and he should see a developmental optometrist.
When he can copy some of the shapes accurately, it makes it not seem like it is just a motor control problem, you know? But I can also see -- maybe this is not what people are talking about when they are talking about visual processing disorder, I don't really know.
Edit: my understanding is that the test where he copied shapes, was the test of visual perceptual skills. It is a normed test the OT uses at his school.
It is all confusing to me, I am just wondering if you know how this fits in?
That was probably the The Rey-Osterrieth Complex Figure Test which measures visual memory, visual processing, visual-spatial awareness, etc. It has copy, immediate, and delayed recall components which help assess how well a child stores visual information in his brain. This is one test my son performed virtually perfectly--at the 99th+ percentile. He missed ONE line's placement. He had the line, but it just wasn't accurate.
It's important to note this too because this is the same child whose handwriting is in the sample I use on my website. You will see there is only one word in the whole thing that doesn't have a misspelling or mis-orientation of some letter. The problems he had were due to his visual processing giftedness.
My son's EXCEPTIONAL visual processing meant he could visualize anything in 3-dimensions. We had to use the visual-perception training in Ron Davis' book to train my son to manage his visual perception abilities when it came to writing. With my DS, this test was a clear indicator that teaching him everything VISUALLY was a huge key to his ability to remember it too.
When he was young, he had a bunch of boys over once.. They dumped out a bunch of Legos, and my DS built an aircraft carrier and helicopter out of his mind. One of his buddies said, "HOW'D you do that??? I can't even build things when I have instructions!" My son says, "Who needs instructions?" For my DS, this was an area in which he was exceptionally gifted, but it also adversely impacted his academic abilities when it came to writing.
So the basic answer to your question is that YES, the test does measure visual processing components, including visual memory. If you son had problems and couldn't reproduce the drawing, the "issues" would be diagnosed or revealed out of whether his difficulties occurred at the copying, immediate, and/or delayed recall portion of the test.
The delayed portion assesses visual memory--the child does other activities between the initial copying and the delayed recall. If the child can store the information in long-term memory and access it later to reproduce the drawing, it shows the visual processing occurred properly and visual memory is intact. The delayed recall was the one virtually perfectly produced by my DS... and that performance was after he had completed vision therapy. Makes me think.. I need to go pull our NP reports from our early to our later testing where the near perfect performance occurred and see what the first performance was. I truly don't remember the Ray-O at the earlier testing--and maybe it wasn't done, but it'll be interesting for me to check out! ;)
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So if the evidence is that a percentage of dyslexics will have physical vision problems, then why are we so huffy about referring them? I agree it's not EVERYTHING. But to paint it like there are NEVER any physical (treatable) vision problems in ANY dyslexics doesn't seem to fit the evidence either. I was just surprised not to see more discussion in the books I've been reading showing these stats on how often the treatable vision problems WILL be comorbid.
To look at the MRI scans in that presentation, it looks like the vision issues and the decoding/phonological issues are in two separate parts of the brain. So you have comorbid issues, not the one explaining/eliminating the other.
I think the "huffiness" comes from people not being told by the professionals, or the professionals not educating themselves enough to know, that there are co-morbid conditions and both need to be addressed. Parents MUST understand that there are comorbid conditions because treatment falls short when they don't.
SO, if you have a COVD doc that says they 'cure dyslexia' (I've heard that one before), but the kid has vision-based issues comorbid with neurologically diagnosable dyslexia, the parent will believe the COVD doc. The parent takes the child through the vision therapy and lo and behold, the child still can't read. That's because the visual issues are NOT the "dyslexia."
On the other side of the coin, you have the neuropsychologists who poo poo vision therapy. The NP says the kid has neurological dyslexia and needs a phonemic awareness-based reading program. The parent thinks that's the answer, provides the program, but the child makes little to no progress because the visual component isn't in sync yet.
SO, YES, you have to address them both --or "all" because you have scotopic sensitivity (Irlen institute) and visual perception "anchoring" (as addressed in the Gift of Dyslexia) that are other visual perception/visual processing issues that can cause issues TOO.
A parent really has to become a detective and nail down ALL of the conditions affecting a child to be successful in fully remediating a child. That's why I wrote my Dyslexia Help Handbook for Parents because there is so much more to the picture than JUST clinical dyslexia as addressed by Shaywitz or visual processing addressed in the Davis program.
As for the f-MRI's (Functional MRIs) and the comorbid presence of conditions.. You are RIGHT ON TARGET there!! The key, I think, is found in the f-MRI's as they image the brains of kids with dyslexia. Their brains process differently. Words that should be processed in the language center of the brain are processed in the frontal lobe, where cognitive processing usually takes place. There are functional differences in the processing centers of the brains for kids with ADHD, Dyslexia, etc., which leads to common co-morbid issues.
The problems come in when people try to box the problems into one nice little slot--phonemic awareness only, Or vision therapy only, etc. Or when professionals aren't CLEAR about the co-morbidness of the conditions and leave parents thinking it is a convoluted soup of conditions that can't be sorted out. I think that is where most SCHOOL personnel have their brains--they think it "can't" be sorted out, so they don't even try.
The thing is.. Each condition CAN be independently identified and addressed. When each independent condition is identified, and an appropriate program is put into place and used properly, then kids can make awesome progress.
In my book, I explain why it is important to work on the physical (visual) and cognitive enhancement components FIRST so that the child has more ability to learn to read through the phonemic awareness programs and other academic programs that will be used.
This thread is soooo totally WHY I wrote my book!! I've been there, trying to sort everything out, and my son had multiple comorbid conditions. We did vision therapy, occupational therapy, speech-language therapy, a specialized reading program (Orton-Gillingham), and cognitive enhancement. We had to address EACH component to build the academically successful package that is my son today! :D
It was HARD WORK. It was hard to be the detective and ferret out each component that needed work, but doing so was critical to our success. We'd already been floundering for five years in public school--teachers thought my son "cried" when they wanted him to read because it was so hard for him, but I knew my son's personality better than that! When we began homeschooling, I could see first-hand that his eyes watered and bothered him. He had convergence insufficiency, so he needed vision therapy. He had pervasive reversals (you can see those here), so we worked with Ron Davis' program from The Gift of Dyslexia. I went and got trained in Orton-Gillingham methods, which equipped me WELL for teaching my son.
It was all WORTH IT!! SOOO WORTH IT!! SO you all KEEP ASKING QUESTIONS and you will find answers!! Keep searching for causes and solutions and you will find them. Knock and the door shall be opened unto your child's academic potential. ;) (Sorry, couldn't resist the reference to Matthew 7:7 ;) )
HUGS TO ALL! :D Keep on being the rockin' moms that you ARE! :thumbup:
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Just for you, I pulled back out Shaywitz, because I KNEW you'd be referring to her. :) I only got through a few chapters (4?) so I need to keep going. As you say, no mention of surface dyslexia. So if that other website is correct and surface dyslexia is *only* caused by brain damage, then it's *not* equivalent to stealth dyslexia.
That's a good find on that Eides quote! So do I understand that correctly to mean that "stealth dyslexia" actually means sub-clinical or asymptomatic dyslexia? I guess my issues are showing up here, lol, because "stealth" means NOTHING to me. I see a ninja. Doesn't get me anywhere. In that quote they're saying low-level deficits, so does that mean CTOPP scores that are low relative to IQ, definitely low, but not *quite* as low as what would get you a traditional dyslexia label? Remember the DSM has gone absolute, not relative. Well I say that, and our *very well-respected* np said mentioned low relative to IQ in our talks (quick, nothing official, just him glancing at things). So "stealth dyslexia" = high ability to mask plus relatively low but not necessarily absolutely low CTOPP?
So here's a question. What happens to the CTOPP scores on a student who gets effective interventions over a number of years? Do the CTOPP scores go up or do they stay down? Then how do they continue to diagnose the dyslexia/reading disorder at that point? It then shows up in reading speed and RAN/RAS?
So then for purposes of the DSM, reading disorder does *not* attempt to explain or include the visual symptoms AT ALL. That's just this bonus weirdo thing that happens to happen from the perspective of the DSM? So then you get the broader picture thinking people (Eides, the right-brain camp, Brain Gym, etc.) who are looking at the broader picture...
I don't know, the whole thing is screwy.
But DSM does *not* include VPD at all, correct? I have some friends in special ed who were taught VPD as part of the labels in college and told it was an LD. So who is it an LD according to and why is it not in the DSM if it's an LD? Or is it just from the school's perspective and not from your double-blind, show it on an MRI, psych, or whatever perspective?
Ok, I'm looking over this chart again that was on that Dyslexia Reading Well site. She's got this venn diagram saying you have to have the phonological deficit PLUS the ran/ras PLUS the comprehension deficit to get to dyslexia, that just the ran/ras and comprehension alone don't get you there. But then if you remediate the phonological with Barton, the CTOPP scores go up and you have no way to diagnose? Or they still remain suppressed?
Sorry, I just haven't figured out these things in my mind yet and they actually come up in conversations with people. I've had people equating VPD and dyslexia so the term is out there and being used by people. And the confusing thing to me is that if VPD is *not* dyslexia, then doesn't it basically just mean get your butt to the developmental optometrist?
Anyways, that explains the snarls from the np, hehe. If he's looking ONLY at phonological, ran/ras, and comprehension to slap on the reading disorder label, then saying an optometrist can help is odd. But clearly because two of those three involve actually using the eyes with the text, anything that IS going on with the eyes would affect them.
I could just about respond to every post on this thread since I was last here, but that would take me ALL DAY and it looks like you all have done a great job of covering the bases already. SO, I will start here and try to answer a few of the other questions too. I think it's the next message I'll reply to too.. with what I know that doesn't seem to be covered here yet. ;-)
""stealth dyslexia" actually means sub-clinical or asymptomatic dyslexia?" -
Not totally "asymptomatic" because it often is "noticeable" by those who know the child best, particularly in the realm of writing. Since writing is such a neurologically intensive process, that's where observers can see something isn't quite up to par with the child's clear cognitive capabilities. Thus, it is stealth in the sense that it is not blatantly obvious, but it is present nevertheless.
This goes hand-in-hand with your other question, "if you remediate the phonological with Barton, the CTOPP scores go up and you have no way to diagnose? Or they still remain suppressed?" and now that we have fully traveled this road with my son, I can tell you that the scores go up some, but not entirely. My DS, who had severe and obvious dyslexia (nothing stealth about his), who is now fully remediated in his ability to read and write (well), still scored in a clinically diagnosable range. However, since a casual observer wouldn't know, but our neuropsych can test and determine the presence of dyslexia, I'd say that a person goes from having full-blown, obvious dyslexia to a form that is more "stealth" in nature.
I think, therefore, that is part of where the dyslexia is never "cured," but its affects can be ameliorated through robust remediation. It allows the person to function a lot better academically--kind of like a person with stealth dyslexia already can. There will still be issues and problems here and there, but at least the student can perform functionally in the academic setting.
We worked on reading speed /fluency, cognitive enhancement, etc. and all of those areas are still markedly low as compared to DS' IQ and cognitive functioning--everything is just higher now!! His IQ measures a good 20 points higher NOW than it did when he was very first tested and heavily affected by his cognitive profile. Did he get "smarter"? NO, Because he was already one smart cookie! I do think, however, all of the remedial work lifted his ability to demonstrate his functional abilities much better across the board.
"She's got this venn diagram saying you have to have the phonological deficit PLUS the ran/ras PLUS the comprehension deficit to get to dyslexia, that just the ran/ras and comprehension alone don't get you there." I don't think that is accurate. DS's reading comprehension has always been excellent for whatever bit he could read at different points in our testing, yet he's always had the neurological diagnosis of dyslexia based upon his phonemic awareness and working memory deficits. In the dozens of neuropsych reports I've read at this point, I would even go as far as to say that **most** of the kids who are diagnosed with clinical dyslexia do not have issues with comprehension--it is far more to do with the reading decoding and phonemic awareness than it has to do with comprehension, and to a degree fluency. Virtually all of the kids' whose reports I've read, including my own boys', have significant reading fluency deficits and those go hand-in-hand with the inability to decode well.
On the remedial end of that, my son's reading "fluency" is in a normal range now, but his phonemic awareness issues are still "measureable" (not that they're big, but they can be seen through neuropsychological assessments).
I'm going to talk more about the visual processing end of dyslexia in response to the next post in this thread where I feel I'll be able to add something to the conversation... but did want to answer this question here quickly too:
" I've had people equating VPD and dyslexia so the term is out there and being used by people. And the confusing thing to me is that if VPD is *not* dyslexia, then doesn't it basically just mean get your butt to the developmental optometrist? " I'd say if a child has reversals, loses his place frequently, complains of his eyes hurting, or displays any other VISUAL issues--YES>> GET yourself to a COVD too!! The visual issues are a different issue, but they do OFTEN co-exist with clinical, neurological dyslexia, as I'll discuss in my next response. ;) Off to that one now! :D
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Thanks! I heard rumors the close HSing group has another child with 2e in a similar conundrum so we'll see.
I'm not super organized yet but I have a workboxes system I think will work for us, curriculum decided (tentatively), library books on hold, a rough plan for a solar system science unit, tons of dollar toys for toddler to do, and desire. DH said we can pull him in a few weeks. I think there's no point in waiting unless I wanted to have everything super prepared before we begin. But even that won't take more than a few days I think. I hope. No school tomorrow so if I get a lot more straightened up with organizing and also house chores done and a few busy bags for toddler I think Tuesday will be his last day. So nervous and scared again!
ROTFLOL! LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the changes to your signature line! PERFECT!! :D
It's scary, but it will be a new adventure through which all of you will learn through immersion. ;)
If you want to be in touch behind the scenes and/or face issues or questions you don't really want to post publicly, feel free to PM me anytime. I don't always have answers, but I have an endless supply of encouragement. ;)
(That offer goes for anyone here too, BTW)
HUGS and HAPPY HOMESCHOOLING! :D
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CONGRATULATIONS on your BIIIIG Decision!! I know it's a difficult road we plow to get to the point of giving up on public school, but it will be best for your DS to receive a great one-on-one education at home. ;)
He really doesn't have to miss out on much either if there are other active homeschoolers in your area. We started with a simple call to park day every Friday afternoon.. If you can't find it already happening, send out a plea to homeschoolers in your area to meet at the park every Friday afternoon for play! It's a GREAT time for the moms and kids to connect. Then you all can plan whatever you want your child to experience. ;)
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This is the sort of confusing issue I address right away in the opening of my book. People use the word "dyslexia" based upon the word's definition almost interchangeably with a dyslexia diagnosis.
The word's definition is basically, "difficulty with reading" --and so that covers just about any condition that would cause difficulty. People use the term "dyslexia" to describe problems with ocular motor development, scotopic sensitivity, visual perception, etc., but none of these are TRUE Dyslexia by diagnosis. It really irks me that professionals use the word "dyslexia" as a catch-all for all kinds of reading problems because that just serves to confuse parents. Often, the professionals want parents to think their solution for "dyslexia" is a cure for most reading problems, but it seldom is.
So, the COVD doc is not necessarily "wrong" in referring to the visual problems as dyslexia based upon the definition of the word, but he sure is muddying the water for a parent to be able to sort out the problems and issues her child has. It would be better to say the child has ocular motor deficits, visual processing deficits and clinical dyslexia (the diagnosable, neurological learning disability). Then the parent could understand that she is dealing with three separate conditions, not "three types of dyslexia." When it comes to "types" of dyslexia--there is only one, and it is a neurologically-based learning disability!!
Putting my soapbox away now. ;)
WWYD...?
in The Learning Challenges Board
Posted
Does your DS have ADHD? (I don't recall).. It's a common misconception that Kids with ADHD "can't" pay attention, but really they pay attention to EVERYthing, and have difficulty focusing on just one thing. Therefore, it isn't uncommon for kids with ADHD to prefer having background music going, maybe audio books, one mom said her son likes having heavy metal on, and my DS liked to read or study with a live video game feed running. He says it helps him focus!!
So, if your son focused well with the book on, I'd say go for it. For my DS, as long as he could do the work, it didn't matter to me what else he did in addition... Sometimes it's music, but a LOT of times it's the video game feed. ;)
Truth be told--I think it's AWESOME when a mom and/or child finds something that works--that helps! :D