We have a really early cutoff here so DS misses by more than two months. Plus judging from my local elementary school’s website the level of academics for K seems lower than what many K programs are requiring now. They will learn to read and write…and socialize. Amazing how much variation there is in what is considered to be K level work. But I’m digressing… We definitely follow DSs lead with how fast we move through things…usually that means full speed ahead with me trying desperately to keep up. But some days we just do a few things or nothing at all. Other days I just adjust what we are doing. DS gets really upset if I try to discontinue our school day so most days we just try to work through the challenges. I have definitely learned through experience that my plans have to be VERY flexible. DS has excellent fine motor skills for his age, but even then you are right that I may have to do some things orally or scribe for him (if he’ll let me).

That's not very obvious in my siggy it it? :tongue_smilie: His formal math is currently rolled in with K4 by COH. We've covered number recognition, counting to 100, place value, counting by 10s 5s and 2s, basic addition and subtraction, equalities/inequalities, etc. He definitely knows everything on Maria's list for what should be done in K before starting MM...

Does this look realistic for an accelerated K4/PreK student? I know this looks like way too much for an “average†four year old, but we have gone through what should have been two years worth of preK and K level material in the last year (with DS constantly demanding more). My DS is currently just turned 4.5 and would be considered K4/PreK next year. You can see the major resources we are currently using in my siggy. I plan to transition into new curriculum over the next month (or maybe two) as we finish what we are currently working on. Am I missing anything important? Is there anything that looks unreasonable even for an accelerated 4 year old? Thanks :001_smile: AAS 1 FLL 1 Progressive Phonics Intermediate Explode the Code 1 & 2 Bob Books HWT K Creation stories, fairy tales, and folk tales from around the world The Read Aloud Handbook K list Read-Aloud Rhymes for the Very Young MM 1A and 1B Miquon orange and red Usborne Encyclopedia of World History (as spine for a prehistory study) with supplemental read-alouds for history, science, and probably literature Handbook of Nature Studies and Outdoor Hour Challenges Evan Moore Beginning Geography Little Pim Japanese Preschool Art The Art Book for Children Suzuki Recorder CDs from the library Community concerts Handicrafts? Lollipop Logic 1 Swimming

Thanks so much for all the advice! I think the Suzuki recorder book 1 with the holes taped sounds like a great fit for DS right now. I’ll plan to supplement or switch until he’s ready to move on in Suzuki. I can’t wait to get started! I just hope I’m up to the task…

On a related note...would it be helpful for me to buy a second recorder to demonstrate or play in unison with DS? If you do this, do you eventually switch them to an alto? The prerecorder is very interesting...I had no idea they existed. Though with taped holes maybe he would be okay on a soprano? Interestingly its that low C and D you suggest starting with that DS has been trying so hard to produce the proper tone on... What do you use instead of the suzuki recorder school books that will work with the taped holes? It seems like the taped holes would make it impossible to play the songs in most books that start with the higher notes... Or is there something to supplement the Suzuki with to slow them down? Also I think I've seen you say on another thread that the Suzuki books are harder to teach from. I have basic music literacy, but not the depth of knowledge and skill of a professional music teacher by any means. Would the Suzuki even be realistically doable? Does it matter which model (other than needing baroque fingering and plastic)?

Thanks for the recommendation! I haven't even heard of this these books before. At first glance they look really fun and I think DS would like earning the belts. Has anyone used this program with their kids?

My 4.5 y/o DS is showing interest in learning to play the recorder. He has my old soprano (roughly a foot long = soprano, right?), and has been trying to get the tone right and make it play different (random) notes. But I think his hands are too small because it just shrills and squeaks and his fingers seem to keep slipping off the holes. So…what should I do? Buy him a sopranino recorder and an alto book? Try a different instrument? If so which one? Wait until he is older? Which brand of instrument/books/etc. would you recommend? Thanks for any advice :001_smile:

I just read back over this and realized how long it is…sorry for that…but there was so much I wanted to comment on… Thanks for all the replies everyone! I really appreciate it. The most recent update… My therapist and I spent the better part of an hour going through formal diagnostic criteria in the DSM yesterday afternoon. Her (unofficial because she is not his clinician) diagnosis was for ADHD and ODD (in addition to the SPD). This was based on her own observations of him as well as my description of his behavior over several months. In addition to working with adults she also works with adolescents at a child and adolescent inpatient facility so I trust that she has a very firm working knowledge of what these conditions look like in children. I am also pretty certain that she is not the type of clinician who would give a diagnosis like that (even informally) unless she was reasonably certain that is was accurate. She also strongly believes that a formal diagnosis is needed now since DS’s behavior is so extreme and is escalating (apparently DS’s behavior looks a lot like the littlest kids in her inpatient facility). I do think she is truly concerned about DS’s best interests. I am so relieved to finally have a firm diagnosis to work with (even if it is unofficial). But I wasn’t expecting to feel so worried, sad, and overwhelmed. It’s not like the diagnosis wasn’t expected. I knew there was something going on and ADHD/ODD/SPD was even my best guess going into this process (though I honestly wasn’t expecting a diagnosis for all three). So where do I go from here? DS’s psych is on vacation for two weeks so she’s not going to be any help in the short term. I will keep working with my psych though and see what her recommendations are. If DS’s psych isn’t more helpful when she gets back from vacation, I may have to look for someone else (which would upset DS since he does like her). I’m thinking that if insurance will cover it, the preliminary neuropsych evaluation might be worth a shot. I wasn’t able to get much information about it other than it is “developmentally appropriate†and would be performed by a developmental pediatrician. It would be through the major medical center in our area and I’ve always had good experiences with them for other services. I guess I will look at a full neuropsych evaluation for when he’s six unless I find someplace else that will do one younger. The options out here tend to be pretty limited for a lot of things. And I have serious doubts that DS could sit still that long anyway (kind of ironic, since the hyperactivity is part of why I want the test in the first place). Can anyone suggest a good book/resource on food sensitivities and ADHD/ODD/SPD? I honestly have no idea how to rule out diet as an issue. And any advice on how to get S/O on board with dietary changes? Are there any definitive books on ADHD and ODD (like The Out-of-Sync Child is for SPD)? I know there are many books out there, but I’d like to start with something that will give me a really good understanding of what’s going on. I’m also going to search previous posts, but I’d love to know if anyone has a particular favorite.

So…it looks like formal neuropsych testing isn’t going to be an option for at least another year and a half. :eek: I just got off the phone with someone from the neuropsych’s office. Apparently they have to be at least six. The woman I talked to said one provider in their office sometimes does "preliminary neuropsych testing" but they will only do it with a doctor's referral. Has anyone had this "preliminary" neuropsych testing? What is the difference? Is worthwhile or a waste of time? :banghead:

Medications would be a last resort, especially since he is just four. Though if things don’t get better and he gets much bigger and stronger I may not have many options. The misdiagnosis and dual diagnosis book is on my list to read and I’ll definitely make sure to read it since that’s another recommendation. Also thanks for the link about ADHD and diet. As far as four being the hardest for some 2E kids…I can definitely say that four has been way, way harder than two or three ever were.

I'm still waiting for mine. We've got a couple of weeks left on our current curriculum, but I am still really excited to start getting it ready to go...

That sounds so horrible for your DS...I'm so sorry. Is there any way to find out if behaviors are caused by food intolerance other than experimenting with cutting different things out? I'm not sure how cooperative DSs father will be with trying dietary restrictions... I am definitely working on the neuropsych. So far I've only found one reputable possibility in our area and I am waiting for a call back from whoever is in charge of their intake.

Wow! I hadn’t even thought of the need to start documenting in order to receive academic accommodations 10+ years from now. It seems there is so much to learn and think about. You make a good point that if I decide not to get a formal diagnosis now I may still be able to proceed on a lot of things as if he had the diagnosis. We’ve been through several weeks with an OT but have now stopped as she felt I had a good understanding of what was going on and what types of things he needed as far as the sensory seeking was concerned. Is there anything treatment wise that actually requires a formal diagnosis? I know meds probably would, but they would be a last resort. Can anyone recommend what I should read for the ADHD and the ODD (and even 2E)? I’ve read The Out-of-Sync Child and I’m currently reading The Out-of-Sync Child Has Fun for guidance on the sensory issues. I’ve also read The Explosive Child and have a couple of other books that were previously recommended here on my list. Would a formal diagnosis make a difference if we ever end up involved with DCF/CPS? I ask because DS can get violent (he punched me in the face yesterday because he decided as soon as we got in the car that he didn’t want the ball I’d just bought him, he wanted a toy truck instead). I’m afraid that eventually someone is going to get hurt, we’re going to end up in the ER or reported by a neighbor or something, and DCF is going to think we are abusing him. I don’t think the psych is completely opposed to diagnosis but I think she is inclined to err on the side of delaying diagnosis rather than prematurely diagnosing and then having to try to remove the label later if it turns out to be inaccurate. And I understand that, I only want DS diagnosed if it is accurate. But I am also afraid that delaying a clinical diagnostic label for too long could result in DS being labeled in other ways, such as “badâ€, “trouble makerâ€, etc. kwim? Ugh, it’s all so complicated and overwhelming…

…or wait and see - if a child is young??? My 4yo DS is being evaluated by a psych. He has already been recently identified as having SPD and he is universally acknowledged to be “very intelligentâ€, but he also has behaviors that are very characteristic of ADHD and ODD. (You can also read my post from a couple of weeks ago on some of the behaviors I was seeing and my frustration with the psych’s suggestion that DS might be “normal†at http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361026 if more information on the behaviors is relevant). The psych today even acknowledged that his behaviors are beyond the “normal†range and some are way outside it and she confirmed that based on what I have described and what she has seen these behaviors do indicate that these two conditions may be a possibility. But she is reluctant to diagnose a child as young as DS with something as serious as ODD or to a certain extent ADHD. I understand her concern that children who are “labeled†sometimes come to be defined by that label, but I look at diagnosis as a very important first step in being able to help DS deal with some very real challenges. So do you think it is it better to push for a formal diagnosis, even in a child who is young? Or is it better to wait and see if they will grow out of it? Are there things I should consider when I am deciding which way to go? Thanks for your advice, Elizabeth

:lol: I can sympathize. I did actually ask S/O before I bought...but all I told him was that the math curriculum I'd been looking at for DS to use when he's finished with his current one was on sale for 50% off...I left out the fact that I was buying a whole set of curriculum... :001_huh:

:party: Yay for 50%! I'm so glad I decided to join the buy. Now I hope we love MM as much as I think we will.

I’ve been eyeing this sale for days (and reading threads and looking at samples). But I’m having trouble making the leap. I don’t mean to hijack…But I would hate to buy six years worth of curriculum and then not use it…or have to buy it all later at full price... Please help me decide one way or the other… Is MM really as good as I’ve heard? Would MM work well with a student who is accelerated? The other programs I’ve been considering for DS when we finish our current K level math in a couple of months are SM (but it’s expensive if you use everything), MEP (price is right, but the lesson plans look confusing to teach), and Miquon (I think he’d like the hands-on). I was also considering using MM and supplementing with IP and/or CWP and/or Miquon. Is MM as good as or “better†than these programs? If I do get MM would you recommend getting just the light blue series or would need/want the all inclusive package?

What do you use for row and column headings for your grid? Is it just the name of the subject and then a list of assignments? I totally agree that too much documentation would suck the enjoyment out of learning. I sometimes also feel like it can take away from actually learning and following interests. It’s a bit of a fine line. You said you live in a high regulation state and you just mark days you schooled on a calendar. Does your state require you to have a certain number of hours? If so are you just assuming that if you did school on a particular day that you earned a certain number of hours? I ask because I’m in a state with strange regulations where they theoretically can require an equivalent number of days and hours.

Yup, you’re right about the content. That is probably the place to add. It’s a little bit of a sticking point right now (as it seems to be for many people). I focused on the 3 Rs since that’s what everyone keeps saying you’re supposed to do with K and younger. We started off our K3 year adding in read-alouds that were history or science based (including the let’s read and find out books, a couple of Usborne first book of’s, etc.) The problem was that DS is a hands-on learner so that many read-alouds weren’t really working well. I might have to give them another try since he’s now several months older. Or I might just have to find hands on options for science and history. I am definitely planning on using SOTW, probably with the AG or History pockets or something for lots of hands on, but was worried that it would go over his head if I did it this coming year since it’s really meant for first. I was thinking about putting together a big prehistory study to do before moving into SOTW to buy a bit more time. Do you think a child this young could handle SOTW? For science he is growing herbs in a little hydroponic garden and we are graphing the weather plus talking about animals we see, how the body works (last week he wanted to know how the water you drink gets into your skin), etc. but its really pretty haphazard since the read-alouds weren’t a big hit (this is part of why I need a plan). I was planning on doing life science for what would officially be his K year (maybe WTM style or maybe Mr.Q or ?). But now I’m wondering if he could actually handle it this coming year. He is definitely interested in animals, plants, and the human body and I’ve heard that WTM style life science is very gentle. Would that actually be doable for a kid this young? If I did the prehistory study I was thinking of letting that be the science too before diving into first grade history and science. I am definitely planning on adding in some more formal geography very soon since DS asks lots of geography related questions (right now I just show him things in the children’s atlas or on the mini globe when he asks). He also does jigsaw puzzles and mazes. I want to try out something like Lollipop Logic or Building Thinking Skills with him. Wow, it’s a little overwhelming to think about doing all that with a 4 year old…. As far as the SN… I am thinking 2E. He very definitely has SPD (extreme proprioceptive and vestibular sensory seeking with some auditory thrown in for good measure). The rest of what’s going on is still open for debate. I’m having problems getting his psych to cooperate in finding a diagnosis, but my best guess at this point would be ADHD and ODD. We obviously need that neuropsych eval sooner rather than later. I thought about posting over on the accelerated board, but to be honest I still find that board a little intimidating (some of those kids are seriously accelerated).

Sorry…for some reason I thought I had put curriculum in my signature…but obviously I forgot to actually do it. You should now see the major things we are currently using, though over the next couple of weeks we will start transitioning to new curriculum as we finish things up. I’m still working on the testing, but I’m hoping to have a recommendation for a good neuropsych by the end of the day. Fingers crossed on that one… I don’t know it he’s “that gifted”…its not like he’s doing particle physics or anything. But he is definitely ahead and “very intelligent” to quote his psych. I would bet that he is more than “just bright” but I wouldn’t necessarily say that he’s profoundly gifted either (and I know there’s a lot of debate on how we define these categories anyway). What I can say is that the level of work he is currently doing in the three Rs wouldn’t be taught until K around here (so two grades ahead of where he is). And he definitely drives what we do. As in I hadn’t even thought of homeschooling until last spring when DS started demanding to know the name of every letter and what it said, then he proceeded to work through a 26 week K3 curriculum (plus extras) in about 20 weeks and he probably would have gone even faster if I’d been able to keep up. Same story with this year. He keeps asking for “more activities”. So it’s much more that I feel like I need to have a stack/list/whatever of interesting activities ready to feed his desire for learning. As it is I often run out of activities while he is asking for more

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions so far. Generally, you all seem to be confirming my instinct that elaborate lesson plans are not going to work well. I just have to figure out a way to have enough plans to know what's next without the plans become restrictive. And the method for record keeping that's going to work best. Keep the suggestions coming :) I hear you on that. S/O is very resistant to the idea of continued homeschooling (“he needs socialization”, etc.) so I feel a real need to show what we are doing (and demonstrate that what DS is getting at home is “better” than what he would get if we put him in PS). So, if you don’t really have written plans, do you keep a record of what you actually got done? As I’ve experimented with different things… I think open-and-go is going to work better for us. Or I’m going to need to create a sequence of chapters/activities/readings that can become as close as possible to open and go lesson plans. DS likes hands-on so I think that makes it a little harder to find truly open-and-go. Does anyone just plan out each subject separately (e.g. history with all the activities and read-alouds) and then move through the subject at whatever pace makes sense for the child? Is there a particular reason you like to use a paper planner first and then digital? I ask because I’m usually all about paperless, but I keep wondering if this is one area where pencil and paper might truly be simpler and easier… I’m in total agreement with you that none of this is needed for a 4yo. I probably should have specified that I have two reasons for planning and record keeping now: 1) so I can experiment with different systems now when it doesn’t really matter, 2) to keep me from going crazy trying to find activities for him at the last minute 3) so that DSs activities are kept a priority – basically in my life if its not on a to-do list it tends not to get done. But I completely agree that being over-planned can lead to anxiety when you get off plan and that’s what I’m trying to avoid – both now for preschool and going forward. At least the way my plans are set up now, anything that doesn’t get done (which some days is everything) just gets pushed to the next day. It just sounds like you’ve found a really low stress way to plan and record. What do you use for recording what you’ve done? Do you use a specific planner? You said you “write about [your] activities”… how much detail do you go into? Are you just listing the subject and then the chapter and page numbers? Or are you creating more of a journal entry?

…when it’s so impossible to plan very far ahead with an SN/2E child? I know planning and record keeping has been asked about A LOT and I’ve read every thread I can find, but I’m still not sure how to get the organization I need along with the flexibility DS needs. I thought I’d ask here in the hopes that some of you have found a way to do it… DS is very likely 2E (though not fully diagnosed and tested at this point). I find that sometimes he speeds through things (doing multiple days worth of scheduled work in one) and other times we end up not doing everything planned or doing no school at all (sometimes his challenges get the better of his desire to learn and other times he’s just a four year old not wanting to do school and I don’t push him). In addition we don’t school on set days due to S/Os inconsistent work schedule. So plans that rely on a weekly schedule or weekly folders won’t work. The challenge is that I’m a planner and an organizer. We are currently using a variation of workboxes (using hanging files to save space) as a way to organize our schoolwork for the day. This is working very well for us. I’ve also been using Homeschool Skedtrack which I have mixed feelings about. On the one hand I like having everything organized and planned and in one place, but on the other hand it doesn’t seem to lend itself as well to a flexible schedule especially when accelerating. Some days I feel like I spend more time readjusting lesson plans than we actually spend doing the work. I don’t want to feel constrained by lesson plans or by the need to keep records. So how do you plan? How do you keep track of your plans? Do you use paper or something on the computer? How far ahead do you plan? Do you have a set schedule? What do you do for record keeping? Do you track attendance? Do you track hours/minutes per subject per day? Do you keep track of what specific assignments are done in each subject each day? How do you keep track of extras like swim lessons or concerts or impromptu art projects or helping prepare a meal? (Attendance, instructional time, and learning experiences seem like hard things to track when almost anything can be a learning experience). I’d love to hear any thoughts and advice you have. Thanks, Elizabeth

Well, I’ve got at least a little bit of promising news. I spoke with MY psych today about her impressions of DS’s behavior. She actually has a lot of experience working with children and adolescents in an inpatient facility. She says that in her professional opinion (based on what I have described and what she has actually seen) DS’s behavior is outside the range of what she would consider normal. And that the kind of behavior he is exhibiting now can land kids in an inpatient facility down the road if they don’t get the intervention they need. She says she will check some diagnostic criteria in the DSM and make suggestions for possible diagnoses to look at. She is writing a detailed email to DS’s psych describing the behavior she has observed in DS. She is also going to ask around to look for a good neuropsych in our area (apparently there aren’t many) so that I can set up testing. She is strongly recommending the formal testing. So basically I do have one provider who definitely thinks there is something going on and is willing to help me find some answers (even if its really not her job to treat my child). If things with DS’s psych don’t change after this I’ll start looking for someone else for him to see. At least insurance is paying for everything. Can anyone tell me about the neuropsych testing? Will it really pick up on everything that’s going on? I just wonder since so many of DSs more concerning behaviors don’t show up in doctors appointments (or his current psych appointments obviously).

I've actually tried to do this a couple of times... but how do you keep your child from changing their behavior in response to the camera? DS either gets really distracted by / interested in the camera (wants his picture taken, plays shy, asks questions about what you are doing, etc.) or escalates the behavior in response (I've got a really nice video of him trying over and over to spit on me from time-out six feet away...which while interesting behavior isn't the specific behavior I was trying to catch).

This is exactly how I am feeling! Any one of his behaviors once in a while wouldn't really worry me. BUT the frequency, duration, intensity, and escalation of his meltdowns, hyperactivity, inattention, and poor impulse control just seem so extreme. I just don't seem to be able to convince the child psych of this since she hasn't seen any of the problems I am talking about (only the sensory seeking). When he's in her office he looks very normal. Distractions are limited. He is allowed to play with almost anything he wants for as long (or short) as he wants. He gets undivided attention. Basically she lets him set the agenda so he doesn't act out in her office so I guess she thinks I'm just exaggerating. (He has started acting out big time in MY therapist's office since she doesn't let him run the show). Your last comment made me laugh...I had the same experience with the OT. After observing his behavior for a while she says "I don't want to scare you but..." I was just so happy that someone else was finally recognizing what I was seeing (at least as far as the sensory seeking) and was giving me some explanation for the extreme behavior I already knew was there.