Aelwydd
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Posts posted by Aelwydd
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I have been to Nepal four times for extended visits and have never seen it either, but I have heard extensively about it for women who left Hindu families.
DH and I have been good friends with two Indian Hindu families, and have never heard or witnessed any such subservience from these families. When completing my undergrad, I worked at a hotel owned by another Indian Hindu family, and the daughter was the manager of the entire operation. The one thing these families all had in common--besides really damn good food--was a very heavy emphasis on education. A master's degree was considered to be standard and expected.
My Pakastani Muslim friend is the same in her family. Education is the most important thing to them. As education is a huge determining factor in a woman's ability to make choices and to attain parity with male peers professionally and personally, these women are all very assertive and none of them were subservient at all.
Cultures have variances, and so do religions, so while I know there is a dark element of sexism and misogyny in India and Pakistan, there is also a dynamic of progress and egalitarian ideals that are very much spreading across that region. I would not assume, by any means, that Nepal has uniformity in its ideals and practices either.
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I am the oldest of three sisters. When growing up, I was mostly responsible for the care of myself and the middle sister. This started when I was 10 years old, and my sister was 7. It also started because I specifically requested from my dad that we be allowed to stay home and be latch key kids (youngest sister was with a daycare), because I hated the feeling of being foisted upon babysitters. I convinced him I was old enough and mature enough to get me and my sister both ready for school in the mornings and take care of each other afterwards.
So, each morning my alarm would go off at about 6:30, and I'd get up, find clothes for myself, my sister, and go make us breakfast (usually simple, like oatmeal), and pack our lunches, get our things together, and then walk the half mile to the bus stop. After school, we'd walk back together, and do our homework, then we could go play. We were restricted to the backyard or sometimes at a neighbor's house because his mom was a SAHM.
I did not and don't feel resentful of that portion of sibling care. It was freeing to be able to do our own routine without being dragged to some overworked home daycare house with 6 toddlers and babies underfoot.
What I didn't like was as we got older, my parents sometimes did take advantage of my "maturity" as the oldest, and expect me to come home from school (this was a high schooler), clean house, study, and help with dinner. This, in addition to a part time job. I did join a few high school activities, but I was limited to my parents' busy work schedules and demands.
Our upbringing wasn't the best (there was unfortunately, some emotional/ physical abuse at times), but it wasn't terrible either. My parents did at least tell me how much they appreciated my help, and they would listen to my opinion in some big decision affecting the family. I felt listened to FTMP.
So, with me, it was a mixed bag being the oldest. But, I only had 2 younger siblings and I did get a car and was granted some independence. Also, my parents both worked full time jobs, so that affects my opinion, in that it's not as if I had a SAHM or SAHD that was so busy with their stuff, or just so lazy and self-absorbed, that they had me raising my siblings in the background. We understood that my parents had to work, and because my mom worked for an airline, it meant we did get to take a lot of weekend trips and we did Disney a couple of times.
I guess my point is, if there's to be responsibility, let there be some reward there. Also, respect individual differences. I was ready at 10 to be autonomous and to watch myself and my sister because I was done with being shuttled off to the babysitter's at ass 'o clock in the mornings before school. I craved that independence. But my younger sister would have been somewhat lost and intimidated and scared at that age to do the same. As I got older, and the youngest sister was added to the mix, it got unpleasant because when those two fought, guess who got to the be the parent and step in? It wasn't a good dynamic at that point.
But, I'm not bitter about that, although I feel somewhat wistful about missed opportunities in some regards. These were mostly related to my parents' religious values though, such as the prohibition to dance (I would have liked to take dance classes), and so forth.
Anyway, I hope this is somewhat helpful to you, OP. I agree with others that daily bathing is not so important for the youngers. I still don't see it as particularly onerous to help a younger sibling bathe once every 2 or 3 days, so long as the older sib gets some privacy time when he/ she starts craving it. But, you see from my background, that I was considerably more involved in the day-to-day tasks for myself and my sister when I was growing up. YMMV.
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I don't really understand the spate of recent threads about large families (by big family posters, no less).
But IMO, as long as they are prepubescent, I think it's a rather efficient use of resources. The only thing that gives me pause is the slight risk of abuse. The recent threads on sibling sex abuse, thanks to the Duggars, made me realize how statistically prevalent incest is.
It's a risk in all families, big and small, religious and secular, and all races and languages. That would be my only caution: no more shared shower a when puberty begins and also to be vigilant for signs of abuse, even though I'm sure it's a small possibility.
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OP, I would just like to point out the original thread on big families (and bitterness) was started by a person who has a medium-to-largish family. Also, most of the contributors were themselves either the product or producer of a big family.
Do not lay this at the feet of small families. In fact, while large families faced criticism for certain dynamics of some large families, I ended having to defend myself and other parents of onlies against some really ridiculous assumptions.
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Excellent point. I think humanitarian work in these countries has to be done very carefully, empowering the local population without holier than thou tone. I had peace corp in my head thinking about it at first, but they probably are under the umbrella of a conservative Christian organization with a very particular agenda.
Honestly, after traveling to that part of the world, I think many of us could use a little more eastern philosophy in our lives! We met so many kind people there living lives we would consider impoverished with joy.
In that sense, I do hope they go. I think D and J are much more likely to be changed by Nepal, than Nepal by them.
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Melatonin and valerian root are very helpful for my insomnia.
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Parenting well is a heart issue, not a numbers game.
I agree that there is a certain personality type that would not be satisfied in a small family or a big family or a rich family or a poor family.....some people just can't be pleased.
We are all going to make parenting mistakes and choices we look back on and regret. That is human nature. Being an honest and emotionally available parent makes it more likely that our kids will forgive our shortcomings and move on with their lives without bitterness.
I have seen all sizes of families produce happy, enjoyable kids and I've seen all sizes of families crash and burn.
My husband is one of 8. He didn't have much stuff growing up, but he feels very grateful for the investments his parents made in him and for his close relationship with most of his siblings.
We have 5. They have quite a bit materially and in terms of art experiences and music lessons and nice vacations, but there are always friends who have more.
In my experience, having another baby does mean that there is less parental attention to go around. That can turn out fine, and yes each new baby means that there are more siblings to give attention, but it is pretty clear that there is less of the parents to go around.
On the other hand, I've seen parents with 1or 2 children be completely emotionally absent due to their commitment to their job or hobby or new love interest, so this is clearly not an problem that is exclusively in large families.
I know a family who not only take pride in the large number of children they have but also in those children's lack of material possessions. They feel so superior to those of us who really try to give our children the best start in life that we can.
I feel sorry for those kids. Not because there are so many of them in such a small space. Not because they wear hand-me-downs, but because the parents don't have the time or the inclination to parent them.
Love isn't buying stuff for your kid, or taking them on vacation. But when there is a conflict, love says,"Hey, you really hurt your sister's feelings. That was completely unacceptable. I need to to spend some time thinking about what you can do to make her feel better."
Love teaches kids how to behave in public and how to treat their friends so that they will be invited over again. Love teaches what kind of behavior is expected in the workplace, and if you homeschool, or use private or public schools, love ensures each kid gets the best educational foundation possible so that they have choices about what to pursue as an adult.
These are not lessons best taught by siblings.
So I'm happy for people who look at the work involved in raising a child and decide they just don't want to have children.
I'm happy for the people whose family is complete with just one child or two.
I'm happy for people, like me, who wanted a bigger family and were able to have one.
Let's just commit to doing our best with our own children, and being humble when we fall short.
Let's commit to helping the other families near us, and most of all, let's make a commitment to stop making assumptions about the number of kids someone else has.
Here are the questions I think are more important. Are the kids happy? Are the kids well-behaved? Are the kids getting an education?
If so, I think family sized ends up just being another matter of personal preference.
This sums up my thoughts on the matter. Thank you, amy!
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Your plan inevitably leads to totalitarianism, with its inevitably horrifying results.
Um, no it doesn't. Sweden, maybe. Or Finland.
Totalitarian regimes don't use resources to eliminate disparity. They use them to enhance inequalities, to shore up the authoritarian top-down structure.
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Possibly, but it's been my observation that the typical mom of 3+ I know IRL is way more laissez-faire than the typical mom of 1 or 2. The question is not whether you personally are "helicopter" vs. "chill" as mom of an only, but rather whether there is a higher percentage of "helicopter" moms in small families vs. larger ones.
That's funny, considering how those of us with only 1 or 2 kids are so busy with our big corporate careers. Bringing in those power incomes, to fund our trips to resorts and other expensive destinations, requires long hours at the office.
But, we still have more time, apparently, to hover over our darlings.
Right this very moment, I'm at a family birthday party at a large arcade/ bowling alley/ laser tag/ karaoke venue.
My kid is running around here somewhere having a blast. I'm with the adults having a blast. My cousin, who has 9 kids, left to go watch her teens and older kids play games. I've barely seen her.
You shouldn't generalize. Or at the very least, don't make two conflicting generalizations. Really, it sounds to me you just don't like us small families because we're all inferior to bigger families. Because reasons.
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The point I was trying to make is that complainers are always going to find SOMETHING to criticize about their upbringing.
I've been a mom of a single child and I cringe when I watch home videos of me when my oldest was a baby. I want to smack my younger self for being such an overbearing Type A "hoverer".
I'm a MUCH more "chill" mom of 3 and frankly, I think my kids are significantly better off as a result.
So you are a better mom of 3 than 1. It does not follow that I parent in the same way. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm still more laid back with my one child than you are with your three.
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Holy rollers, Batman! I was raised in the Assembly of God denomination. Explains some of the attitudes the older generations when I was growing up. Also, why the churches my family attended were 99% white.Here are some more people on the wrong side of history.
removed image
So glad I left. / shudder
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Climbing the pole to take it down isn't the way to enact permanent change and dismantle white supremacy, which was her stated objective. The legal process is working, let it work. You do not change hearts by removing objects, you change hearts by the strength of your argument. Her argument is a good one, her actions are unnecessary.
I hope it is removed. As Governor Haley said, it's time. Civil disobedience by either side is a distraction.
Maybe her argument was "you shall know [me] by [my] fruits."
Christians in many places and many times have had to peacefully dissent from certain noxious laws. She found the continued display of a symbol of hatred, oppression, and death to be intolerable. Her continuous quoting of the Psalm speaks for her motivation.
This was a peaceful act of religious conviction in defiance of the hatred and violence that took 9 lives recently, and was epitomized by that flag.
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I would like to simply say, dh and I have so far limited ourselves to one child for multiple reasons, and none so crass as merely not enough cash to spare.
Also, not that I need to defend myself here, but I worked 60 hours last week, and finished up at 2 am this morning. Ds is currently at a game, which I am not attending. In fact, I might make 50% of his games in a season, maybe take him to a handful of his art classes, and hardly ever got to take him to French class. DH, who is a SAHD, does the majority of driving ds to and fro.
Since we only have one car (despite us being one of those monied, spoiled, small families), sometimes ds has to get rides to practices and games with friends. We have allowed many sleepovers from age 6 and up. We have permitted him to camp out with his cousins.
We constantly encourage him to venture out, as he is an introverted child.
But it's nice to know that other people can make character judgments on me based upon how many times my uterus has been occupied.
ETA: Oh, and I've never visited any resort town, chi chi or otherwise (WTH is that anyway). I got my nails done for the first time in years, at my first ever visit to a spa last month. Which was a gift from a friend. I haven't dyed my hair in years. The last family vacation we took was 5 years ago.
Yeah, I know, it's infuriating isn't it, the lavish lifestyle we parents of onlies lead. Haters gonna hate.
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I suspect that many of the only kids or 1-sibling kids in the next generation will sit around when they're our age complaining about their horribly overbearing "helicopter" moms. The type who get so wrapped up in building a "trophy" child to brag about via car stickers the way other people brag about completing a marathon or visiting a chi-chi resort town [insert eye-rolling smiley here]
I just had this discussion the other day with my oldest when she was complaining about having to wait around for an hour while her little sister did a preschool art class. I reminded her that if I didn't have her siblings to worry about, she would have 100% of my undivided attention to be Ms. Tiger Mom over. She shuddered at the thought, LOL!
Ok, so now that you've made such a snotty remark about only children and their helicopter moms, is it my turn to talk about moms of many?
Only I don't think about big families in cliches like that. So, I guess I can't return the favor.
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Thank you, BlueGoat, for sharing that. It might be interesting to collectively read Aristotle and Plato, and to discuss it. Would anyone be interested in this?
If I can get the spare time, yes!
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LG Optimus is barely comparable to LGs flagship models, G2, then G3, now G4, etc.
The G5 is a good phone, but I prefer the G3 for the superior pixel resolution, the 13 mg camera, the tap on feature, and better antenna.
I would would recommend going to a store just to hold and try out each model. The ergonomics of the S5 may be more appealing, or you may like the speakers better. It just depends on your personal preference.
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Sounds like inflammation along the nerves. Steroids would perhaps help. I'd go to a walk in clinic or urgent case to find I out.
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I think as a relatively newer poster I don't have some of the context to see how anyone was trying to shut down the discussion. And it seems like I've seen, in almost every serious discussion with debate, some group or person claims to be the persecuted and feels as though discussions about them or about the content of the OP are unfair or highly targeted. I know I'm guilty of feeling that way sometimes. In reality, I think it's just that if someone starts a thread they have to be willing to be open to some people discussing the discussion and even the OP. I've not yet found a place on the internet where it doesn't happen, and if you (general) want to discuss contentious subjects and disagree with folks a lot, I think it's going to happen even more than otherwise. And even more than that if you're blunt. Ask me how I know!
I also don't hold this board out as more disciplined than any other place on the internet. It is so open and google-able that you get all kinds here, just like everywhere else. I like the atmosphere, don't get me wrong, and there are great discussions, and it is better than a lot of places...but it's still an internet discussion board.
I think for formal debate, unless you're paying for a structured class where the participants, ground rules and such are firmly established and adhered to, you're going to be disappointed.
Unless you want to play Spot the Logical Fallacy, then I think internet discussion boards are truly great teaching fodder. :)
I disagree that this board isn't more disciplined than many others. That's mostly due to SWB's insistence that posters argue points not personal attacks. In that regard, this board is more restrained than many, maybe because it is public and more visible than most.
I don't want the entire board devoted to debate. I'm only pointing out that classical Christian education always placed a high value on the ability to give a reasonable answer and to defend the faith. I may be agnostic, but I'm an Anglican agnostic, if that makes sense. Thus, my disappointment in the rather tepid showing at first. The discussion has recently gotten more serious though, so I'm hopeful for new insights.
If I get some time (I am on my phone now), I hope to contribute as well.
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Ya know, folks, it's not as if albeto started this thread with a funny video about those dumb Christians who pray or anything...that would be offensive.
I am tired of people arguing about albeto. If you don't appreciate her input, put her on ignore. So darn easy. But quit trying to shut her down.
Can we get back to the actual question now ?
One, two, three, four! I declare a thumb-a-war!
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Except for those who just come to salivate over the cupcakes!
There are few places on the internet where I've found actual well reasoned discussion, but to be fair, sometimes some people do just want to chat or have banter or be encouraging. Or, in this case, maybe just want to share how prayer has worked for them in their own lives without feeling like they have to get involved in an extended theological discussion or have their answers picked apart. I don't know if picking apart or extended discussion was albeto's intention or not, but I could see how it could be interpreted that way, or why someone might ask the question before answering the OP and how the intention of the OP might affect whether or not someone would respond or how they would respond. It may be different from her perspective, but I also don't see questioning the motive of an OP (which I think happens a fair bit around here) as "bashing" or any kind of attempt to assassinate someone's character. I think it might just be the difference between sharing an encouraging story about prayer or getting geared up for a heavy discussion about God and prayer, KWIM?
I completely understand. Not everyone wants to engage in debate. My point was that if you do engage, be logical. Use logical argument to contest another's premise, rather than repeatedly questioning her underlying motives.
Intial questions about why albeto opened this discussion make sense to me, but then it just became a tedious exercise in trying to shut down the entire discussion.
On a board devoted to classical education, I would expect at least some measure of disciplined debate. If someone is going to oppose someone else's presupposition, it's only reasonable that either side uses logic and evidence to advance his or her cause.
Also, I have a personal interest in observing and learning formal debate because I hope to teach it to my ds. It would be nice if this board fostered more of that, but I do understand it's not everyone's cuppa.
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I never said albeto was rude or mentioned anything about cognitive dissonance. I guess you're summarizing from the thread and not just from what I posted.
You did not offend me. I would be willing to engage in a dialogue. However, today I am fog brained from lack of sleep. I have to take a sick kid to the doctor and take care of some complicated, unpleasant business which includes dealing with a very difficult person. So today I doubt I will have the time or the energy.
Yes, I meant a general "you." I apologize for not making that clearer.
I also understand about brain fog. Working nights means I am often feeling loopy!
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I have been reading this thread, wanting to comment, but I only have access to my phone, so it's difficult to make a lengthy response because auto correct is a pain. But here it is anyway.
Albeto, all of your discussions revolve around how reality is discerned, or how truth is attained. Your measuring sick is the scientific method, and if it is beyond the scope of the scientific method you do not believe it can be knowable. Correct?
So if I say prayer has an effect, a miracle had occurred, you want evidence.
God has promised evidence, but you, personally, have to perform the experiment. The results can't be shared because they are spiritually discerned, even when there ARE physical results.
1 Cor. 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
There is a God. Our senses and reason denote that there is a God. That is the most logical conclusion. Without that fact there is chaos in the thought, that we are mere random, advanced organisms that are born full of life and love, the ability to think and reason, to create, improve... yet with no purpose, and then to die and cease forever. There is no logic in the thought.
Before we were born, we lived with God. He is the literal Father of our spirits. He is our Heavenly Father and He loves us as such. He sent us to earth so that we can progress and become like Him. He wants us to return to Him and receive a fulness of joy.
Because there is a God and He loves us, He surely does answer every sincere prayer offered in faith. He speaks according to our faith, by the power of the Spirit or Holy Ghost.
Moroni 10:4-5
"...and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."
Jacob 4:14
"...for the Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be; wherefore, these things are manifested unto us plainly, for the salvation of our souls."
The only evidence of this reality or truth is my testimony that I know these things are true, because I have experimented and continue to experiment and the results are consistent and powerful. I have heard the voice of God, my prayers have been answered, I have witnessed miracles. It fills me with hope, peace, and knowledge.
The way is plain and the invitation is open to everyone.
2 Nephi 26
13. "...he manifesteth himself unto all those who believe in him, by the power of the Holy Ghost; yea, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, working mighty miracles, signs, and wonders, among the children of men according to their faith."
24. "He doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the world; for he loveth the world, even that he layeth down his own life that he may draw all men unto him. Wherefore, he commandeth none that they shall not partake of his salvation.
33. "..and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile."
THANK YOU, Heidi. I am reading this with interest, especially since this comes from an LDS perspective, which is somewhat novel to me.
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Yes, okay. But why "push for clarity from believers" when she thinks we are all deluded, just plain wrong? It seems that she would find the answers that make sense to her by asking other atheists, by watching their videos, reading their books, and talking to them in person. It almost sounds like she isn't 100% sure that prayer doesn't work, and wants to make sure. Maybe she is still trying to work through it all. I don't know. I don't mind the question. It just seems an odd place to ask it, of people you believe to be misguided.
She had books, videos, and her religious community when she was a believer. So did I. I exhausted those resources and found them to be contradictory. It's somewhat difficult though to press an author for clarification. Or to have an in depth interview with the producer of a video or film.
Faith community, in my experience, was a mixed bag. Most people would tolerate a very limited examination of their beliefs about prayer. To continue to question was to risk being chided and dismissed as an immature Christian at best, and an agent of the enemy stirring up trouble at worst.
In short, asking this question on a board, in this medium, means getting at least some serious attempts to examine what prayer is and what, if any, are its mechanisms of action.
Those have been interspersed, however, with just as many posts questioning the motives behind albeto's questions. I get that her perspective on religion is somewhat off putting to believers.
But, for all the hype about her audacity in pointing out that, yes, religion is full of contradictions, so yes, it does require a level of cognitive dissonance in order to maintain belief, I have yet to see a single, cogent, logical argument presented in this board to challenge her premises going into this particular discussion.
I do visit (though I don't participate) religious boards and theological sites fairly regularly. There are some sophisticated arguments for theism out there, although nothing I have seen that is airtight.
IMO, if you wish to disabuse her of certain premises, you should employ the kind of logical discourse that would be capable of answering her charges. On a classical education board like this, posters should be salivating over locking horns over such a debate. There are, IMO, weaknesses in both the atheist and agnostic views, not that I have seen any such valid, well formed arguments presented here in many months. It's disappointing for myself, an agnostic.
Because albeto's charges are legitimate. And simply telling her it's rude to compare the Christian mythology to other popular mythologies is not an answer at all. And telling her she's wrong to assume cognitive dissonance is being employed to maintain belief, is again, no refutation of that extrapolation.
So, she asks the question, "What does prayer do?" And predictably, based on her past experience as a believer, finds there is no consistent philosophy for the manner or mechanism of prayer, which only solidifies her viewpoint that believers have no answer except what is subjectively true for them. Which is to say, there is no objective truth to how prayer functions. It is arbitrary and capricious.
To express my own frustration and disappointment, I should have gotten the same clarity by asking 50 children how Santa's sleigh works to carry contain all the presents and how the sleigh achieves the speeds necessary to complete his mission in one night.
If that comparison offends, please point out why it's a fallacy, because that is really how this whole prayer concept feels to me.
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Of course, Oklahoma has now passed a state law preventing communities from restricting fracking in their area.
Yet another proof that Texas and Oklahoma are two sides of the same dirty coin.
Texas just passed a similar bill.
Yay freedom!
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6th grade Curriculum suggestions
in The Chat Board
Posted
We're using Florida Global Virtual School, and have been happy with it so far.