Rosie
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Posts posted by Rosie
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Thank you, again, Colleen. You've given me a lot to think about. I can't say I've jumped on the grammar bandwagon yet, but I'm at least starting to see a few reasons where grammar can actually be important and not just a waste of time. I started yesterday talking with my girls about nouns and a bit about adjectives. We were naming any nouns we heard people say. They were having fun... and if we're going to do grammar I want to keep it fun. I'm going to get MCT Island for them for Christmas (hehe!) and start it in January so I guess they'll be getting some grammar this year! Still not sure if we'll do it every year, though...
So, thank you! I'm sure I'll be thinking about these thing for a while!
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Wow! Thank you for taking the time to write all that out! I appreciate it! And I will most definitely NOT tell my daughter a single thing that you said about her work! LOL! I understand how fragile writing confidence is, especially for new writers.
All of the punctuation mistakes were mine since I was the one typing. The word choices were completely hers. So, I can see that I need work on comma and semi-colon usage. I've always been a bit fuzzy on those. I can see how your edits made especially the "read aloud" version sound better, but do I really want to commit years of study to this in order to improve punctuation a little bit? Is this only important if she decides to be an English major? She could use an editor for any other writing, right? I know you said this is just a fraction of the knowledge that can be gained and used so I'm still open to the idea that I just have no idea what I'm missing here...
As far as her awkward wording in a few places, I did notice most of them (not the that/who one, though!) and chose not to say anything. We had already met twice to revise this from the original draft and I didn't want to overwhelm her. I think maybe you and I have different views on this aspect of teaching writing, too. I am okay with leaving some things in her writing unfixed and, instead, going over them out of the context of her personal work. When I see things like the need for lists to use commas and one "and" then I try to use copywork or casually point it out in a book so she notices it. I don't try to keep her pieces short so we can make them perfect. I want her to have the freedom at this time to explore various ways to write. I think maybe this mindset comes from reading Bravewriter stuff. Not sure. Anyway, I guess I'm just trying to say that I'm taking more of a long-term approach instead of expecting perfect grammar as the goal of every written piece of work.
(And I'm kind of laughing at myself because this is maybe the 5th writing assignment she's ever done! It's not like I have tons of experience, but I do feel that I want to stick with this particular mindset in the way to approach correcting her writing.)
Thank you, again, for taking the time to comment! I'll gladly hear anything else you'd like to add. The different perspective helps me see things more clearly.
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I would still recommend she start studying grammar soon. It helps kids (and adults! I've learned a TON of grammar with my kids) to get into the habit of improving their compositions using their grammar knowledge.
Another thought - I personally NEVER used the grammar I learned in school to improve my writing. I could see absolutely no use for it. I'm starting to think, though, that maybe I just didn't have great teachers. There was never an excitement for language and writing imparted to me. I loved writing in my own time but never for school assignments. And my grammar was rarely corrected in high school so maybe I've been assuming that my grammar is better than it is. I was never shown how grammar instruction actually relates to writing. I still don't see it, but plenty of people are telling me it does, so maybe I really am missing something....
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I do see some grammar and mechanical errors in her composition; but it's hard for me to tell if it's because she composed it, or if it's because you took down her dication. However, they are mostly concepts I would not expect an 8yo to know just yet, so I won't bother to list them unless you want to know for curiosity's sake. But they are there, and I would still recommend she start studying grammar soon. It helps kids (and adults! I've learned a TON of grammar with my kids) to get into the habit of improving their compositions using their grammar knowledge.
hth
BTW, I liked her composition overall!
Yes, please share what you see! I am curious! I'm brand new to this teaching writing thing so I'll take all the help I can get!
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I can't read all the responses, my brain is not able to do that this morning, so if this has been answered feel free to ignore.
Yes, he does repeat, but not in the way you think he does. ;) The repetition factor ala FLL is not there. Something is mentioned, clarified, then you move on to the next refinement. You can go through the "repeated" parts in passing. Really. It's not like you are doing exercises like circle the noun, what is the predicate blah blah blah.
He doesn't cover punctuation until the kid can understand how the grammar dictates the function. He doesn't really go into complex phrases until the more basic kinds are fully understood. But really, as it is program based on thinking and not on worksheets, you can spend as much or as little time on whatever part you want.
FYI I am in level 4, having started at Island, and we are still learning things. It is definitely not all review or repetition.
And to answer your original question, yes, BW and MCT compliment each other, IMHO. They deal with different types of writing and and there is not much overlap, if any. MCT is really big on thinking, considering and making sure your writing is concise, beautiful and powerful. BW is about brainstorming, creating and output. I think that BW is a good place to get juices flowing, and MCT is where you make that output the best that it can be. Also, BW focuses on creative writing, MCT on academic writing (at least eventually). I don't think either is formulaic or will stifle writing voice.
Thank you. This post was very helpful!
So, would you say it's worth it to do the grammar through all of the 3 first levels. I was thinking that, if we like MCT Island, we would maybe skip the grammar in Town and then pick it up again in Voyage. The samples in the grammar books seem so repetitive that it doesn't seem worth it to buy books that only have a little bit of new info - especially with how expensive the program is.....
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I have officially decided to buy the Island level books (probably minus the vocab book), but I can't decide when to start using them and with whom...
Background info: My dd8 has been reading non-stop since she was three and has a good intuitive sense of what language should sound like. She has always been linguistically advanced. We are working this year to get her to a point of doing more actual handwriting because right now she is dictating most writing assignments to me. She is an auditory learner, but also highly visual. I feel like we could do more in LA for her right now. She currently does handwriting and one other LA component (copywork, dictation, freewrite, revision, short written narration, letter, journal, keen observation or communication game a la Bravewriter) each school day and it takes her about 15-45 minutes in total. I don't feel like she's being challenged very much. Her copywork is flawless and dictation is nearly so. Every once in a while she misspells a word, but she is a natural speller and will remember the correct spelling from then on once it is pointed out to her. The only challenging thing is getting her to write MORE and I don't want to push that too much. Her intellect is her strength and I'd rather push a bit harder in that area than in small motor skills. I think she would really enjoy MCT right now. She would learn a lot but I don't think it would be too challenging.
My dd6 has been reading since she was four but not as voraciously as her sister. She spells on a 5th grade level, but writes (dictates) on a pretty average 1st/2nd grade level, I think. She is not as intuitive with grammar (or maybe she is/will be and I don't realize it. Her sister was in K at that age, not learning much, and I wasn't working with her on writing at all so I can't accurately compare them). She is an extremely visual learner, very good at making leaps in math concepts on her own, and loves to cuddle on the couch to do school work when at all possible. She would sit all day creating elaborate works of art or doing math sheets and rarely crack open a book or write a story if I'd let her.
I obviously could start on MCT with my 8yo, but I seriously don't like to waste time and like to school them together as much as possible. They often do the same dictation, sometimes the same writing assignments. They do Bible, History, Science, Poetry, and Read-Alouds together. They even do a lot of math together since we do a lot of extra fun math stuff and the 6yo is very mathematically intuitive. I enjoy doing school this way and just know to expect more from my 8yo than my 6yo. For instance, I expect my 8yo to work on giving either complete narrations with as many details as possible or ask her to give a summary in a couple sentences. My 6yo is still at the point of needing me to ask specific questions for her to answer. So, I'm used to differentiating instruction/expectations a bit.
Is it possible to do that with MCT?
Would my 6yo be missing out on a lot by starting it earlier than the recommended age range? I don't mind doing writing assignments orally with her. That's pretty much what we do right now, anyway.
If we decide to stick with MCT, I'm totally fine with stretching Island, Town, and Voyage over 4-5 years for them. If we run into a wall at some point (and I'm assuming we will) I have no problem coming up with my own thing for a while until they are ready to move forward. But, since I'm in no rush to finish the three levels early, should I be in no rush to begin them? I'm just excited to start because it looks like we'll really like it, but I don't want to rush ahead if it would be better to wait.
I plan on having them listen to Grammar-land a couple times over the next month. They have had close to no grammar instruction at all yet. Brian Cleary books, Schoolhouse Rock DVD - that's it. I don't know if they need more than that to begin the Island level.
Has anyone BTDT? I don't want to jump the gun on this if it's not the best thing for my kids....
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I agree. Your daughter's writing will probably improve, even if you don't do formal grammar instruction. However, understanding grammar can make improving writing easier and faster because it gives you a common vocabulary for explaining writing choices.
Thank you, Kuovonne. Your tone in this post has helped me to "hear" you. It seems like the "grammar people" always imply in their posts regarding this topic that you just "do it because it's good for you" and I always need a "why" when deciding whether to do something or not. I actually really enjoyed diagramming sentences in jr. high, but I also never saw the point. Honestly, I didn't see the point of any part of school. That's why I never went on to college. I was so glad to be done with having to learn what someone else wanted me to learn and on to learning what I actually enjoyed learning!
I am pretty much convinced now that MCT is truly different than the run-of-the-mill grammar instruction that I've seen no use for. I am going to give the Island level a try and see where we go from there.
Off the top of my head, here are two points from MCT Island Level:
- Word order matters. Words in the middle of a sentence are less powerful than words at the end.
- Use strong nouns and verbs. A long string of adjectives or adverbs detracts from the main meaning.
You can teach these things without teaching formal grammar, but I find it easier to teach them hand-in-hand with grammar.
Now, this I love. I can see the purpose in learning those two points!
Thank you!
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After reading the whole thread, I actually think your biggest hurdle is seeing grammar as a chore instead of as a tool used to artistic effect in writing. What you seem to be dreading is year after year of dull, workbook style grammar instruction and mindless, robotic application that chokes every bit of artistic expression out of a previously uninhibited writer. That's the opposite of what MCTLA is. Think of it more as year after year of acquiring new tools or fresh perspective. Your child will be experimenting with and refining the use of this extremely important tool. You could argue that the ability to use grammar to artistic effect may be the paramount difference between an ordinary writer and an extraordinary one.
Does that help? :tongue_smilie:
Yes, I think you've understood me perfectly. And you're use of the word "artistic" has, I think, officially convinced me to push the buy button. :001_smile:
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So, just to be sure, you guys are saying that MCT does not repeat the same stuff over and over again each year (like FLL)? It sure seems like it does from the samples! It just seems to start with nearly the whole kit-n-kaboodle instead of slowly adding things.
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Yep, totally. Except we go several months and then switch. It's the best of both worlds, I say!
I do second guess myself a lot, though. I'm naturally a box checker and perfectionist and would push my kids too hard if I didn't know better... but I also see how very important their free play time truly is. Probably as they get older I'll be more strict, but for now I want to let them be kids.
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I can't be the only one with little kids who reads threads like this and dreams of using MCT with her kids in the future... :lol:
(I'm such a geek...)
I've been doing that with various curricula for years! I'm FINALLY getting to the point where I can start using them! Welcome to the geek club!
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She writes very well. It is a small thing, but she also misuses the objective pronoun "me" instead of using the objective pronoun "I" in this writing sample. This is an easy enough fix (if one knows the difference) and I would not change her easy writing style, as it is quite nice.
Yep, I noticed that, too, but decided to leave it alone for the time being and discuss it later (through copywork?) when it's not connected to her personal work.
But MCT is not going to undo anything that is already good (it inspires good writing) but it would open up an understanding of the grammatical underpinnings of the language.
Now, that is exactly what I needed to know. I have read of children's writing styles being shut down because they are trying to work within a formulaic approach that their curriculum teaches. I don't want her writing to turn into the kind of stuff I see on the walls of the local public school - pages filled with a bunch of 4-5 word, boring sentences. I love working with her in her own unique writing style right now. I want to continue to develop that and keep her love of writing while slowly introducing more academic forms once she reaches middle school age.
MCT goes way beyond "grammar," however. It gets kids to think about the sounds words can make and how those sounds (when strung together) can effect the impact of the writing on readers.
It is really good stuff!
Bill
That sounds WONDERFUL. You're convincing me to order it!
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Both teach you to fill your mind with beautiful writing.
BraveWriter focuses more on freeing yourself to generate ideas -- freewrites, narrowing and expanding, keen observation.
MCT is more about choosing specific ideas. It helps you examine individual word choices, phrasing, etc. and evaluate which ones work and why.
Thank you. This is helpful!
I don't think that grammar should be studied a specific number of times. I think that it should be an ongoing process. I think that grammar should be constantly reviewed by being put into practice. There is a lot more to grammar than the parts of speech, parts of a sentence, or even diagramming. Being fluent in the tools of grammar means that you can analyze different wording choices and have an intelligent conversation regarding which one is better and why.
Yes, I can see how this would be helpful. Just recently I found the need to teach her what an adjective is so that I could more easily explain what I wanted her to change in her writing. I guess maybe because I have no further experience with this I can't foresee needing to do this very often, though. Right now we just rely on what sounds right.
I guess my biggest hurdle in believing in the huge importance of grammar that most people on this board seem to believe in is that I've gotten by just fine with the basic overview of grammar that I got in the 5th and 7th grades. (I did not go to college at all, though, so maybe that is the difference? I don't think I would have done too badly in English classes, though, had I gone....)
I looked briefly at your daughter's writing sample. I like it. However, two things jumped out at me. (1) She dictated the story and you write it. So, you put in all the punctuation and spelled all the words. If she were to do all the handwriting by herself, there would probably be some grammar mistakes. Even though kids speak in complete and complex sentences, young writers often don't punctuate their writing in complete sentences when doing the handwriting. (2) It is a narrative. In general, it is easier for kids to write stories than more formal academic pieces. Of course, an 8 year old doesn't need to do more academic writing.
Yes, the dictating to me is a Bravewriter thing. Her handwriting has been slower to develop than her intellect and so I haven't transitioned her yet to writing everything on her own. My goal is to get her there by next year.
I honestly do think that if she had written it in her own hand that it would be grammatically correct. When I dictate sentences to her she rarely gets anything wrong and when I see stories she's written in her free time I haven't noticed grammatical errors. I think they may be simpler sentence structures, but The Writer's Jungle told me to expect that when they are first starting to write on their own.
As far as it being a narrative and easier to write, yes, of course it is. But, like you said, an 8 year old does not need to do more academic writing yet.
See, I believe that both things you mentioned will improve over time with or without grammar instruction. Again, I'm just not seeing the need for constantly going over it.
It does seem, though, that MCT may be a good fit for us, even with the grammar! (Or maybe we could skip some of it some years???)
Here is one way that I mesh BraveWriter and MCT. I use The Arrow and DD writes the passages from dictation. We also pick a sentence from the passage and do an MCT four level analysis from it. We discuss how the grammar supports the ideas that the writing is trying to communicate. Then, for good measure, I have DD make an imitation sentence a la Killgallon.
Would you mind explaining the bolded sentence further? Maybe some examples? I'm really curious!
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He has a power point slide show/presentation on his web site that talks about how to implement the books. At first it felt a bit weird to me. I didn't know where he was going with the whole thing, but after getting into it it's great and makes sense to me now.
I'm not a schedule sort of person. We crack the books and work as long as it feels right. So I'm not disturbed by the fact it's not conducive to a rigid schedule. I know some people need/like that.
Yep, I've seen the slideshow. I would have no problem with implementing it the way he says to. We are pretty free-flow here in how we do school...
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Would you all mind taking a look at my dd's writing sample here...
http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326892
... and tell me what you think? Thanks!
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No, MCT's guidance in Paragraph Town is anything but formulaic. One of the big criticisms that some people have of it is that it is TOO open-ended.
I don't have time to write much today, but I'll try to remember to come back later and expand upon it.
I would REALLY appreciate if you would do that! I've been searching on the forums but still can't seem to get a feel for how the program works exactly!
(I like open-ended programs, by the way...)
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I do see that "me and my children" should be "my children and I."
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I just posted on the K-8 board about my dd's writing being grammatically correct and how she doesn't seem to need grammar instruction... and then I thought, "Well, maybe I've got mommy goggles on. I'm the only one who judges her writing." So, can I have some honest opinions on this?
She just turned 8 years old. We call her a 2nd grader but she is probably working more on a 3rd/4th grade level. It's hard to say because we don't use many "graded" texts. We just this year started doing any original writing. Last year was just copywork/dictation/oral narration.
I did help her a bit with this. I gave her the idea of writing it in first person, present-tense narrative (though I didn't use those words!) and helped a bit with the first and last paragraphs. It is 95% her work, though.
Oh, and I should add that she dictated this to me. I don't think she has the hand strength yet to both "compose" and "write" at the same time...
*
The King Dies
I walk out of my mud brick house with my three children. We are going to a funeral procession. The king of Egypt has just died. The priests are going to bury the king in an underground stone tomb.
My children dance ahead of me because this is their first time going to a funeral. They laugh and talk and play with other kids that are coming, too.
As we get closer, we hear women weeping and we see people carrying baskets of food and clothing. I am carrying a bottle of wine and a basket of food for the king to eat and drink in the afterworld. We all hope that the king’s heart will be light when it is weighed against a feather by the god, Anubis, so that he can live happily.
The priests bring the king into his stone tomb, and me and my children and all of the other people put in the tomb the baskets with food and clothing, and the jars with wine and water. Then the priests close up the tomb and we all go back to our homes.
Later that day, as I prepare a delicious supper of hippopotamus and carrots for my family, I think of how much we loved our king and I hope that his son will be a good king to all of us.
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Again, it's not like how you are imagining it though. He recommends to use the grammar book first and get through it quickly. We finished the grammar book working fairly slowly in less than 2 months. So if MCT wrote 12 years worth of grammar books (which I realize he did not) one wouldn't spend more than 2 years in total focused on just grammar. The other books tie into the grammar, but it's not worksheets of circle this and underline that.
Ack...it's hard to explain! ;)
OK, but don't the town and voyage levels mostly repeat what is in the Island level? That's what it seems like from samples - like, maybe we could skip the town level or something. I just really don't want to waste time. Is that obvious enough yet?! LOL!
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I'm currently using Town. It's not like that. I tried programs like that with my son and it didn't work for him. He basically didn't need it. His writing turned out much better without the steps. So I do know what you are talking about.
In fact, I came across programs that claimed a paragraph had to have five sentences in it. :eek:
I honestly think you will like MCT's books.
Yes, I'm thinking I will like them the more I read about them. It really helps to know that it's not the kind of program that forces children into the 5 sentence paragraph form!
I just wish the books weren't so expensive!
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"Why is grammar fun and valuable? Grammar reveals to us the beauty and power of our own minds. With only eight kinds of words and two sides (subject and predicate) of each idea, we can make the plays of Shakespeare, or the novels of Toni Morrison, or the poems of Elizabeth Bishop. No system, so gorgeously elegant, could be expected to make such a language. Through grammar we see the simple form of our binary minds; in all of our sentences,
however elaborate, we are making a predicate about a subject, and this reveals the meaning of clarity. For each sentence or idea, I must know both of these two things: what you are talking about, and what you are saying about it. For each paragraph of sentences, I must know what the paragraph is about, and what you are saying about it. For each essay of paragraphs, I must know what the essay is about, and what you are saying about it. A sentence, with its two sides, is a model of the mind.......
Another way to think about why grammar is fun is to ask, what is not fun? The feeling of confusion...is not fun. The off-center feeling of struggling with one’s own ignorance to accomplish just an ordinary thing is not fun. The private knowledge that you don’t even know which pronoun to use in your own language, this is not fun. The low self-esteem of guessing your way through commas, and spattering words around like a wordy Jackson Pollack, not really controlling where they will land or why, this is not fun. It is not fun to have a peer correct your usage, make your verb plural, shift your wrong pronoun to the object case where it belongs, or gently remind you that your sentence is a fragment."
Michael Clay Thompson
http://aea11gt.pbworks.com/f/developing-verbal-talent.pdf
Alright, well, I definitely appreciate that he is so passionate about the subject - a passionate teacher is what makes a subject interesting - but I'm still not seeing the NEED for 12 years (or even 5-6 years) of grammar instruction. My dd's writing is clear. She knows when something does not sound right and changes it. We don't have problems with usage, plural/singular verbs, wrong pronouns (though I'll admit I don't remember what the "object case" means), or sentence fragments. And, if we do run across something like that, I read it out loud to her and she notices and corrects it "by ear."
I'm truly not trying to be difficult. I just don't see the need....
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Not at all. It's parts, but it's not how you are imagining it. It's not worksheet after worksheet of circle this and underline that. It's very creative and engaging. It's a lot of discussing and thinking creatively.
OK, so, thinking about this more...
I think it may be the PARAGRAPH teaching that I'm worried about more than the sentence teaching, so we'll probably be alright with at least the Island level. My dd already knows how to form sentences well so giving her an understanding of their structure should not hinder her in that. It will just give definitions and clarity.
What I don't want is something that teaches a student to write a paragraph with a topic sentence at the beginning and a few supporting sentences after... and then expanding that into the 5 paragraph essay form. I realize that she will eventually need to learn that but I don't want her writing stifled by being squeezed into a mold too early. She's only just turned eight. Her writing right now is fluid and pleasant to read (once we get to the final draft). I don't want to go backwards to awkward, short sentences because she's thinking too much about form. Does that even make sense? I'm still working through all of this in my own mind...
I'm getting the sense that MCT is different than the run-of-the-mill grammar/writing curriculum, not only in tone, but maybe also in philosophy....
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I do not believe being free in ones writing and being knowledgeable about the formal elements are antagonistic ideas. Much as with math education there is a Third Way that incorporates both.
Bill
I don't believe they are antagonistic. I just honestly don't see a reason to study grammar very much. I don't want to waste our time. I'd rather see my kids playing make-believe, painting, or jumping on the trampoline than have them learn the formal names year after year of things they intuitively understand and use already. (Just like how I freely have them skip pages in math that they already understand.)
If someone can show me a good reason to study grammar more than 3 times I'm open to hearing it!
I do think the two ways of teaching writing are antagonistic, though.. I guess you'd call them whole-to-parts and parts-to-whole. That's more specifically what I'm wondering about when I ask if the two programs are compatible. I realize that learning grammar will not hinder a whole-to-parts method of writing instruction, but will the parts-to-whole premise that MCT starts with clash with what we're doing with Bravewriter?
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Bravewriter complements MCT very well, except you would be doing more formal grammar study than Julie Bogart seems to promote. Honestly, however, the downplaying of grammar study is something where I personally disagree with her philosophy. I don't think most students need 12 years of it, but I do think it should be done more than 3 times even with a child whose strength is verbal & written expression.
Would you mind explaining how exactly Bravewriter compliments MCT?
Also, I'm curious as to why you think grammar should be studied more than 3 times? I don't use the grammar I learned in school. I've just never been convinced that it is important for people who can pick it up intuitively. I'm willing to be wrong on that, though, and would like to know if I am!
Using MCT with a young child...
in K-8 Curriculum Board
Posted
Thank you for sharing your experiences, everyone! I think I'm going to get it for them for Christmas, go over the parts of speech with them over the next month, listen to Grammar Land, and then start Grammar Island sometime in January. We'll take it slow. I guess I'll have to wait and see if the 6yo can handle it or not.
I absolutely don't plan on speeding through these at the normal one-level-per-year rate. We have plenty (Bravewriter stuff, copywork/dictation, oral and written narration, 2 Sonlight LA levels) to keep us busy if we need it.
A bit off-topic, but are the Magic Lens levels independent? It seems that I keep choosing teacher-intensive programs and I have a third child coming up to school age pretty soon so I don't know if I'll be able to continue with this way of doing school! It would help if SOMETHING could be independent at some point besides handwriting!