[Asking for prayer and maybe a little vent ...]

:grouphug: You are in my prayers.

[Purity Culture is damaging and idolatrous]

Does it make you wonder why? Why, if Paul said this was best, do churches not promote that? Why do churches not suggest to young men and women to remain untouched their whole lives and serve the church? Why do churches not challenge their youth groups to pledge to wait until they're 30 to see if they can't remain untouched? Why not have Purity Balls for single church members in their 30's and 40's and 50's and so on? Why ignore this thing that Paul said was best?

But I don't think that it is being ignored. Both the Orthodox and the Catholic churches have long traditions of encouraging celibacy, and of holding monastics in high regard. Not big on pledges and purity balls, though! :D

 

ETA: I think it's being interpreted differently than the way you are interpreting it. I don't think it's being ignored.

 

Does the bible mention anything about being "called" to one way or another? I was catholic, so I do understand the concept, but I can't recall any scripture that talks about being "called" to one vocation or another, personally, individually called by god.

Well, I hate to have to admit it, but I honestly don't know. My Biblical knowledge could use some improvement. But I will say that maybe I should not have spoken of it in those terms. Perhaps it doesn't need to be a calling, but it can simply be a choice.

 

I was raised as a Quaker but my mom suggested the same idea, albeit much more vague and with no real pressure. She suggested my marriage would be more special, my relationship would be more special if I maintained my virginity. She was awfully vague about it and couldn't articulate any reasons to answer my questions (like, "but why?"), and I didn't press.

 

Today I think I see virginity at marriage in the same way I see getting to know the gender of your baby at your ultrasound. Some people really like to stretch out the mystery, and they genuinely enjoy the anticipation of waiting. Others like to know right away and don't feel any sense of being let down at the birth. There is no "right" way, and there is no moral value assigned to it. Both options can be supported by practical reasons, but ultimately, it's a personal opinion and no one really suggests persuading others how to do it. I don't think we as a society would tolerate that. We care for our autonomy and personal liberty too much to be told what to value.

 

But not when it comes to virginity.

 

Not only do we deny personal liberty by conditioning children to value one opinion from the time they are old enough to know what "purity" is, but we allow others to promote and support a certain moral value to it. Heck, we even incorporate it into public education. Education. Like the water cycle. Facts. Information.

 

That's messed up.

As a parent, I am going to teach my daughter what I believe to be moral (on this and other topics, of course). As an American, I recognize that I live in a pluralistic society, and so I have no expectation of having my beliefs and morals taught in the public schools. But is this really being taught in many schools? I would have guessed that promoting virginity is not the norm for public school sex ed.

 

Chewed gum and licked cupcake analogies have no place in any sex education program. That's just beyond inexcusible.

 

 

Is virginity before marriage important in Orthodoxy?

Yes. But not to the same distorted, unhealthy extent that it is important in Gothard's sect and those like it, and I think also not even for the same reasons that it is important in those groups.

[Couch-to-5K: June 14-20]

W2d1 finished. It was slow and ugly but it's done.

:lol: That describes every run I have ever done in my life.

[An embarrassing confession, and a request for help]

Please, don't be mortified! :grouphug: As "flaws" go, I consider that to be a pretty minor one, if it even IS one! It's great that you want to change for the sake of your husband and kids, but goodness it's not like you're hurting them or anything! I think you've already received some great advice, and I have nothing to add to that. I just wanted to say, don't beat yourself up.

[Couch-to-5K: June 14-20]

Did Week 1 Day 1 yesterday. After the third jog session my shins were KILLING me. Looks like more stretching may help but I may have to start with a walk/walk faster cycle to start and then move on to running. :sad: I can't afford to get injured and with bad knees, plantar fasciitis and allergy-induced asthma that's pretty bad right now (we're having air quality warnings quite a bit lately), on top of being old, overweight and out of shape - I don't want to push too fast.

Ouch, yeah, I would definitely encourage you to take it slow and easy! Doing it as walk/walk-faster instead of walk/run is probably a good idea. It's so much better to do that than to get hurt and not be able to do anything. My husband has had problems with shin pain from time to time. I will ask him if he has any advice for you.

[So mad at United Healthcare]

We have UHC too, and it's awful, though I suspect it's actually pretty typical. For the first two years that we had them, every single time we submitted a claim we received threatening letters from them saying that if it was a fraudulent claim we would be prosecuted. Every single time that we went to the doctor, we received a threat from them!

 

They also claim, on our plan, to pay 80% of our medical bills after we've met our deductible, but of course that isn't the way it works at all. They pay 80% of what they feel we "should" have been charged, not what we were actually charged, plus of course they will find any excuse possible to not pay. For example, once the lab at my doctor's office was very busy, so they sent the bloodwork to another location within the same provider's network. The same company, just a different location a few miles away. So UHC wouldn't cover it. Jerks.

 

I'm sorry, OP. But the good news is, if your doctor has any experience with UHC at all, she probably knows to just ignore them. :D

[Purity Culture is damaging and idolatrous]

I didn't read your comment as belittling in any way, fwiw. :)

Okay, good. :)

 

I didn't mean to put you on the spot, I'm just wondering how xians respond to this.

 

 

No, marriage is not a sin but it's not the ideal, either. What do you do with that? What does anyone do with that? As a catholic, I accepted the idea that celibacy was the more honorable path, being married to the church, or being married to christ himself being more virtuous and sacred than being married to a mere mortal. At the same time, I accepted it as a great sacrifice for the very reasons you give - marriage is created by God, blessed by God, that's how one goes forth and multiplies, etc etc, kwim? I don't know what protestants do with this. It seems maybe they kind of brush off that part because it doesn't resonate with most people. They don't relate to this as a moral truth, or sound advice. Or anyway I should say, I don't know how it resonates with the protestant.

It's probably good to challenge me and put me on the spot every once in awhile. :) I guess I've just not been part of a Christian church that ever promoted the idea that marriage was "not the ideal". I'm Orthodox so wouldn't be able to help you out on the Protestant perspective. But I can say that in the Orthodox Church, the view that I have heard expressed again and again is that both (celibacy and marriage) are equally valued and respected. I'm not sure there is one ideal that's right for everyone, it's more of a belief that some people are called to monasticism, and that's the ideal for them, while others are called to marriage, and that's their ideal. I've even heard people point out that if we were all monastics, then there would be no one left having babies and making more monastics! It was said light-heartedly and with humor, of course, but it is true that the church would have died out a long time ago if celibacy were the only option.

 

 

I agree, and yet I'm finding myself having a hard time separating "purity culture" from the idea of virginity being a special thing, to be "given" ideally under certain circumstances (within the context of lawfully wedded bliss). It seems to me this purity culture is just taking "virginity culture" and turning it up to 11. It's not like people who aren't immersed in this purity culture (however we define it) are safe from the same sexual dysfunction and anxieties like shame, or addiction, or whatever negative thing one might associate exclusively with ATI. And it's not like people who do not identify as being a part of the purity culture don't advocate many of the same ideals. I think there's a problem with assigning a moral or ethical value to virginity in general, and I think it's for the same reasons I don't like the purity culture, even if it is less dysfunctional and more socially acceptable overall.

Yeah, I share your concern. I wasn't raised Orthodox, but Jehovah's Witness, and I remember being told that my virginity was the most precious gift that I could give my husband. I was just a young teen at the time, and I didn't think through all of the implications of this statement, but it absolutely revolted me. Just on an emotional, "gut" level, I was repulsed by it. It did not have the intended effect, but rather it made me feel that I didn't want to marry a JW man if he thought that was the most precious and important thing about me.

 

Now, as an Orthodox Christian, while obviously we do make much of the fact that Christ's mother was a virgin, I simply don't hear people talking about purity and virginity in that kind of context. I hear the phrase "marriage as a path to holiness" a lot. And there definitely is an awareness of the importance of chastity - but this is different because it's about the state of the heart not the state of the body, and it is lifelong and something you strive for before you're married, and while you're married, and after you're married (if you get divorced or outlive your spouse.)

 

Well, I'm tired earlier than usual because I didn't sleep well last night, and I'm not sure if I've managed anything approaching a coherent sentence, much less paragraph. :) But I'll check in again tomorrow. Good night!

[Describe your dream life--if you were alone]

so relate to this.

Really? I thought mine was the only one! Seriously, he is not the same size that he was in 1982, he cannot wear them anymore! But he keeps them anyway because they don't have holes in them. How is THAT the only criterion for deciding when to get rid of old clothes???? You'd think he'd grown up in the Great Depression or something! :lol:

[Describe your dream life--if you were alone]

Most people who are married with children are heavily defined by their family. That's fine that we are, but sometimes we get in a rut and need to remember to do things to enrich ourselves. Imagining for a moment that you are defined only by yourself and not your family can help a person to find a passion to pursue.

I thought it was a very fun thought-experiment! I am very much defined by my family, and I'm okay with that, and in fact I love it! But that doesn't mean that I don't wonder from time to time, what if . . . What if I'd had a career instead of a family? What if I could live where I wanted to rather than where my husband's job keeps us? What if I had more control over my own living space? What if I were free this weekend to do whatever I wanted to do? I don't obsess about these questions, and this does NOT mean that I'm unhappy with my life, but they are fun to ponder from time to time. I'm such a daydreamer though. Always have my head in the clouds. Maybe more practical and level-headed people just don't think this way?

[Describe your dream life--if you were alone]

Oh no, I know I'm messy.

 

I clean up & straighten only because otherwise..... people touch and move my stuff >sob<

 

My careful piles, my visual memory of exactly where that item is because I was standing there & doing this when I had it in my hand, it's all screwed up because someone will come by & pick it up and move it (he calls it 'putting it away'. :glare: )

 

 

Ah, I see. :) I'm not a very neat person by nature, but I am married to a man who never gets rid of anything, and who doesn't believe in "wasting" money on things like new furniture or home decor. So that's why I dream of a minimalist, impeccably decorated apartment - because I live in a house full of stuff with mismatched hand-me-down furniture, and with a man who still owns the clothes that he bought in 1982.

[Couch-to-5K: June 14-20]

How do the rest of you handle the heat? Early morning/late night runs?

I've been heading out the door by 7am, and it's been around 70 degrees at that time. But that's only because we've had an exceptionally nice spring and mild summer so far this year. When it gets hotter I'll probably have to bump it up to 6:30. :(

[Purity Culture is damaging and idolatrous]

What do you do with Paul's thoughts about marriage (1 Corinthians 7)? He was pretty clear that a man shouldn't touch a woman (he says so right up front), but if he can't help himself, it's better to be married than to fornicate. The Roman Catholic Church interprets this in part to consider celebacy in the priesthood(and nuns) as a profound sacrifice - the "calling" to remain untouched, and refrain from touching others for life. They equate one's relationship with the church as a mystical marriage (a priest is married to the church, a nun is married to christ, essentially), but that doesn't diminish the practice of abstaining from sexual relationships for life, or considering that to be a virtuous deed. I know not every xian sees it this way, and not every catholic does, but the fact remains, this was a significant belief for many centuries for most xians.

Maybe I miscommunicated before, or maybe I'm misunderstanding you now, but believe me in no way did I intend to belittle celibacy as a path to holiness. I have a tremendous and heartfelt respect for those who choose that level of asceticism.

 

But marriage is also a legitimate calling, and a path to holiness. Paul was certainly . . . exuberant in his promotion of celibacy. But he says very clearly in that passage that sex within a marriage is not sin. Purity culture puts such a heavy and unhealthy emphasis on virginity and on abstaining from even fleeting sexual thoughts ("lust"), etc. that, as has been mentioned in other threads on this topic, people who have been raised in this culture can have a very hard time switching from that mindset to a healthy happy sex life within a marriage. Sexual shame within the context of marriage is not a Christian ideal, as the Christian view is that God created the institution or marriage, and blessed it.

[Describe your dream life--if you were alone]

My home would be messier.

I've always thought that if I lived alone, my home would be neater, because it wouldn't be filled up with other people's crap. :lol:

[Describe your dream life--if you were alone]

Oh yeah, I'm a mess. I want it all :lol: When we moved from the city to the suburbs, I was ready to be done with the city. Now, after 12 years here, I'm soooo sick of the burbs I can hardly stand it and am ready for a more rural life. Of course, whenever we drive through the city, I'm the first to say, "When the kids have moved out, let's seriously look into moving back here!" NYC and I have an on-again-off-again love story going back to my childhood :D

 

Yeah, I've been ready to move for quite awhile now. DH is not like that. He spent his first 25 years in one apartment in the city, and he's ready to spend his next 25 here. Blech!

I suspect that if you have the wealth to live there, NYC is probably one of the most fun places in the world to live. We lived upstate for a couple of years and I'm basing that impression only on the few visits that we made during that time.

 

The problem is that all of the desirable places to live have such high costs of living. What is up with that, anyway? :lol:

[Describe your dream life--if you were alone]

I've lived both lives. I miss the city :( But really, I want both worlds. I want to be on the edge of the city with easy access to everything, but close enough to the edge that when the zombie apocalypse comes I can get out of dodge quickly. :zombiechase:

That's nice - both the fact that you've been able to live both lives, and that idea of living on the edge of a large city.

 

I grew up in a semi-rural area just outside of a town of 20,000 people. I have less than zero desire to go back to that.

 

I've never lived in a big city, only visited. So maybe it's just that the grass is always greener, but I really want to live in a city - a REAL city. The one I live in right now is half a million people, and it's interesting for about three days. I've been here 16 years.

 

My husband grew up in Pittsburgh and doesn't particularly want to live in a big city again. He'd be happiest in a small town in Colorado.

[Purity Culture is damaging and idolatrous]

But aside from maybe the micro-penis, I guess my experience has been that these things can easily come up in a marriage even if you try things out before hand. I wasn't celibate before I married, but over the period of my marriage my libido has gone through really significant variations. My husband refers to the period when I was nursing babies as "the seven year drought". And things like premature ejaculation, or inability to have sex at all due to things like illness, can happen easily enough as well, and at some point I daresay they will happen to every couple that stays married for long.

 

Ultimately, if you marry with the intent to stick with it through normal bodily changes and misfortunes like illness and accident, you are signing a blank check. The only kind of insurance that I think is realistic is talking frankly beforehand about your expectations and feelings. I kind of think that the idea that you can take a test drive to check for compatibility tends to obscure that reality for many people.

Good points. I know this is uncommon, but I do know a couple whose sex life was brought to a screeching halt because of the development of a rare medical condition. The test drive did nothing to prepare them for that eventuality.

 

Also, one problem with the test drive is that it's usually performed during the "lust stage" of the relationship: early on, when you're crazy, giddy, head over heels in love. That's actually not a very good indication at all of what your sex life is going to be like for the next 30 years!

 

On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong about that. That's the way it went for me. I fell in love first, then had sex, and then got married. I guess what is more common now is sex first, love later, marriage last? Quite a contrast to the days when it was marriage first, then sex, then love last if ever.

 

ETA: And I am in no way trying to say that the way that I did it was the "right" way. I was not a Christian at the time. I wonder how my life and my marriage might have been different if I had held to the Christian ideal of waiting until marriage. But I will never know, of course. It is what it is.

[Purity Culture is damaging and idolatrous]

No you did not, he STOLE something from you. He took trust and so many other things that I'm sure I don't understand since I haven't gone through it. You did not sin and you can still freely give yourself to someone else, that would be intimate. That horrible man stole many things from you. It was not intimate. I am so, so sorry.

I just wanted to say how strongly I agree with this, and that I too am very sorry.

[Purity Culture is damaging and idolatrous]

This is exactly why I don't equate the physical state of virginity with purity.

Yes, this is a very good reason to not equate the two.

 

Another reason is that if the definition of purity is physical virginity, then that means that marriage is impure. And I cannot accept that. I find that to be a pretty unChristian idea, actually.

 

If there is to be a healthy definition of purity, I think it has to be more about a state of mind than a state of body.

[Describe your dream life--if you were alone]

If I did that, I could see myself moving back to Manhattan and working in a museum there, living alone in a little studio with at least one cat.

 

However, I'm also experiencing a VERY strong pull toward living in a little cottage on a mini-farm with a giant garden and chickens and milk goats.

I was going to say that it's really interesting to find out who are the city girls and who are the country gals, but then you just had to go and confuse things. :D

 

I can also see myself living an RV, always on the go.

 

I'm a restless soul :willy_nilly: We've lived here for 12 years now, and I'm getting incredibly itchy to go experience life somewhere else. DH is not that kind of guy. His family is here, so this is where we're planted for good.

 

If I were truly ever living alone, I'd probably never settle down for more than a few years anywhere!

I can relate to this! We have lived here for 16 years now, and I think that's about 11 years too long. I'm sick of it!

[Thank you, hotel mirrors, ....]

I got an unpleasant surprise last week trying on clothes in a dressing room with mirrors positioned to give you a full view of your backside. shudder

[Describe your dream life--if you were alone]

Just for fun, and not worrying about funding? I'd live in London!

 

A small apartment in central London would be my wildest dream come true. I wouldn't own a car, wouldn't want one, because I would walk and use the tube to get around. I'd go to plays, performances, museums, and of course pubs, constantly.

 

I would work as a medical lab tech -- not the typical dream job, I realize. But it would suit me well. I have a background in biology and a desire to help the sick, BUT I'm a super shy introvert who doesn't want a job interacting with people, and who wants something low-stress enough to leave it all behind at the end of the day. (And yes, I realize that it's not the kind of job that would pay for an apartment in central London, but this is just a fantasy!)

 

I'd have one small, perfectly trained, non-shedding dog. :)

 

I would decorate my apartment in a very minimalist fashion, modern but still comfortable.

 

I would be really active in my parish.

 

I have thought about this, even before the question was asked. :D

 

ETA: I forgot to mention that I would also take full advantage of the beautiful parks in London! I would go there to run, to watch birds, to soak up the sunshine on sunny days, etc. London has gorgeous parks!

[Purity Culture is damaging and idolatrous]

I think that a lot of what lies behind our approach to dating is that marriage is a kind of amped up friendship with sex, and I think that tends to give unrealistic expectations for marital sex, how we relate to our spouses, and even for friendships.

 

I tend to think that the "marriage as sexual friendship/dating" model is almost a mirror image of the "courtship/purity" model, and that both have some serious underlying problems.

Your entire post was very good, very insightful. But this part especially struck me. I had never thought about it in these terms before, but I find this very interesting. Good food for thought.

 

I had a friend and roommate in college who was from a culture where arranged marriages were the norm. At first the notion was shocking, even revolting, to me. But she really opened my eyes and made me think, for the first time in my life, about the ways in which my culture had shaped my expectations regarding what marriage should be, and that there were other approaches that were just as healthy, just as positive, just as fulfilling (possibly more so?) though profoundly different.

 

I wonder how long this expectation of friendship has been a big part of marriages in our culture. I hadn't really thought about it before, but now that I am thinking about it, I think this was much less of a factor in my grandparents' marriages than it is in my own.

 

I'm also thinking about all the times I've seen someone post on FaceBook "Married to my best friend for x years!" and wondered if I am the weird one because I never describe my husband in those terms ("best friend"). That just somehow doesn't feel right to me, for reasons I can't articulate.

 

Well, that was a mess of discombobulated thoughts. :) But your post really got my mind spinning! :D

[Purity Culture is damaging and idolatrous]

(You are not saying that, I don't think, but I feel the implication is that we NEED to be perfectly meshed when I disagree and think that we BECOME meshed in some areas.)

I just wanted to say that I agree with this, and I think it speaks to a larger problem regarding marriage in our culture: the fact that we've all been raised with this romanticized notion that once you find the right person, sparks will fly, the orchestra will play, and you'll live happily ever after. I've actually heard people say that when you find the right person, things will be easy, because relationships aren't supposed to be work. Well, I think that's one huge, stinking pile of b.s. right there.

 

And I do want to be clear that I'm not arguing the opposite end of this spectrum either; I am not trying to say that any two people can have a happy marriage if they work hard enough. No. Some people are just plain incompatible.

 

But I am saying, finding the right person is only part of the equation, and I think our culture over-emphasizes this part. Becoming the right person is part of it too (and that's a life-long process). Having the right attitude and approach to marriage is part of it too (and once I've got that figured out I'll be sure to let you guys know :lol: ) Compatibility is something that can be worked toward, and it is something worth working toward. It is not, in my opinion, something you should just expect to have magically handed to you by the right person.

 

Well, I know I'm getting off-topic, so please forgive me, and carry on. :)

[Couch-to-5K: June 14-20]

Just got back from my first run of wwek 2. It was hard. This weekend, I had two "cheat meals" (which is incredibly stupid, because the only person I'm cheating is myself!) and two glasses of wine. Definitely paid the price this morning!

[History of England]

Thank you, ladies! I appreciate the help!