freethinkermama
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Posts posted by freethinkermama
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I must confess that I have never lived in Florida. I can only speak from my experience of attending public school in New England, as a Christian. I only knew one other person who confessed to be a Christian, and she was in a grade a head of me.
I grew up in the West. 13 streets, 13 churches. Met an atheist for the first time at 13. Didn't meet another until college--as far as I knew.
Just because you only met one Christian in school didn't mean there weren't tons of theists all around you. Christians aren't the only theists around.
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This also makes me think of how hospitals will offer to send a priest, etc to talk to one at their bedside. I don't want to talk to a priest, but I might appreciate a friendly visit. There is nothing like that for someone who isn't religious.
*NOT TRYING TO DERAIL!* Promise!
Just wanted to nod. I wonder about that too. When I was in the hospital once, a woman came by to give comfort care foot massages. It was a wonderful half-hour we spent. Chatting about everything and the joy of a foot-rub on top of it.
As much as I would try to be grateful for a religious person, whose job is religion, to come and comfort me, it would never be far from my mind that their major concern for me is to get me converted to their god so their god won't send me to everlasting (or perhaps only temporal--whatever, who cares? :)) punishment.
It's something I've been dealing with and thinking about lately, that's just why I mention it here.
It a country that is strongly religious, it can be hard sometimes to be not.
But, maybe comfort masseuses, rather than chaplains, would be a good option for non-religious folks in hospitals :)
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Actually, that is a misunderstanding of how such things work. The funds provided for the religious concert came out of tithes from Christian-service-attending Ft Bragg soldiers and families. The chaplains sort out the money into funds. So, Wiccans have a fund of their tithes, Buddhists have a fund of their tithes, etc. The money given for the Christian concert came out of the Christian fund.
eta: I found a link talking about this
http://www.fayobserver.com/articles/2011/03/09/1076742?sac=Local
Ah! That's enlightening, then! I'd have to think more on that.
If the groups have the money to do that, fine. They should be provided with the appropriate space for whatever they can host. And no one should be forced to attend.
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They want the privileges and access that the religious get. I'm cool with that.
That said, I think the long-term goal should be to recategorize things, not seek to define atheist groups as faith groups. But at the present time they have to work within the system. I just know that will backfire at some point, though, in favor of people who thrive on saying atheism is a belief system in order to denounce it. Some will make the connection that these atheists were forced to redefine themselves in order to work within the system, but some won't and will want to wield it as a weapon. (Lot of alliteration there, lol.)
)
It's a "deal with the devil" for sure ;)
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Hmm.
Well, atheism and agnosticism aren't faiths.
However, where this move comes from is a large faith-free event that was nixed at the last minute at Fort Bragg.
There was an enormous Evangelical event (called "Rock the Fort"), which received military money last year and brought in Billy Graham. Several soldiers who did not were reprimanded.
This year, an atheist soldier got the backing of Fort Bragg to host an atheist/skeptic/faith-free event, inviting atheist thinkers, musicians, and comediens from all over the world, and then it was basically called off because of last-minute restrictions put on the show. They weren't given any funds (which the Evangelical group was), and they were provided with a venue that wouldn't support the numbers of people that were to show up, etc.
You can read all about it at Rockbeyondbelief.com
A link which provides the best details is here
http://rockbeyondbelief.com/2011/03/07/demand-equal-treatment-for-the-armys-non-religious-soldiers/
This move (to get the atheist/agnostic group labeled as a faith group) is simply to get the recognition that religious groups get (which up to this point has been preferential). If religious groups can get funds from the military to promote their faith, surely non-religious military people shouldn't be denied the same sorts of events that promote skepticism and reason.
I seriously doubt you'd find a single atheist/agnostic among those starting this group who would say that their non-belief is a religion. They just have to go by these guidelines in order to have the same support religions have.
My 2 cents
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Ooh!
The Well Trained Mind is my homeschooling Bible :)
It was exactly what I wanted, but didn't knew existed.
I had no word for Classical Education when I first had children, but by the time mine were old enough to formally school, SWB held my hand through that book!
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How so?
astrid
My guess?
We're going to hell.
Of course, perhaps I'm wrong and the OP will come in and explain it herself.
I'm not coming back in to this thread either, I'm packing for my trip down below :)
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Thanks!
My kids love these cams--this time of year, especially! :)
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happen. My parents are believers, but I never really knew that growing up, we went to church very rarely, more in my younger year, but my dad was a farmer and church was the last thing to ever do. I became a Christian my Junior year of high school, a friend invited me to her church and I started going regularly with her. I really wasn't following a Christian life though. When I met dh he was a Lutheran and I knew that I wanted to marry a Christian man and raise my kids to believe. Dh and I dated, though my immoral ways corrupted him (we lived together before we got married, etc.) It wasn't until had our children that we really started getting more into the word of God (well he had read the Bible before and already knew a lot, but with our kids it really changed our perspective on life. We actually left the Lutheran church and are now the black sheep in his family, but very happy in a non-denominational church. I still have a lot to learn, have a hard time memorizing scripture, but I do read my Bible every day. (actually an app on my iphone, which makes it super easy!)
So if you weren't raised a Christian what happened that lead you towards God?
Edited to answer the question here-- to make a long story short--I was 13. Shoot, also, I see this is for present believers. Sorry to have intruded. Two years ago, I would have still been a believer, so perhaps this is still . . .something useful.
Here's the rest of my winding post :)
I did not grow up in a Christian home. My mother took me to a mainline church several times a year, and when I was born again my understanding was that she wasn't a Christian.
My best friend shared the gospel with me, and I tearfully accepted Jesus Christ as my savior. I clearly remember praying, "Thank you, Jesus. I know that you died for my sins and I could never deserve that."
It was the culmination of many years of questions, including "Jesus, why did you die on the cross? What does it mean that you died for me? Would I have died on a cross if you had not?" It was a life-changing moment for me.
From that day forwar, I was a fervent, passionate follower. I felt like a door had been suddenly opened on me, and was filled with a Spirit that helped me do the right things and comfort me when I was sad. At 13 years of age, I began going, to my friend's church, Wednesday church. Reading my Bible daily and praying. I was so amazed by the simplicity of the gospel, I was sure that everyone would immediately believe in Jesus if only they heard the way I had. If I had had access to religious tracts, I would have been an ardent tracter.
I spent the next 20 years loving and serving Jesus. As an missionary, Bible study leader, and mother.
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:glare: Thanks for that comment, I haven't heard THAT before.
If I continued to believe in god and continued to tithe money for Christian causes and I continued to 'pray' about my problems instead of DO something about them then I would have wasted an enormous amount of my life time and finances on nothing.
With the whole god thing- most people here are atheists in regards to: Thor, Zues, Athena, Pluto, etc. If there is an afterlife where you'll be punished for not believing in/worshiping the right god, how do you know you have chosen the right god to worship?
This is a common evangelistic proposition invented by Pascal, called Pascal's Wager, or Pascal's Gambet. You can Wiki. There are all sorts of sites that discuss the merits and flaws of the proposition.
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even before I was an actual Christian and understood the full scope of that, I always believed in God, so I cannot know what it would be like to make moral decisions in light of not believing.
I was curious what that looks like.
as per Biblical teaching and my own personal relationship with Christ, I conduct myself the way I do because I love Him and want to please Him.
Although I am already going to heaven, and nothing can take that from me, I look forward to the 'rewards' in eternity that I will get from Christ for the life that I led while on this earth. since Christianity believes that eternity is forever, those rewards are much sweeter than any sacrifice i make here in my short 80 years.
If I am wrong, and it's all hogwash, I still conducted myself well...and I end up dust... If I am right then that is horrible news for unbelievers...
Ah, Pascal's Wager. Passe, I'm afraid.
And, if the Egyptians were correct, your soul will be eaten by Ammit when you die. I'm sure you feel no more threat of that than I do being thrown into the fire by your god. :)
You may draw whatever conclusions you like there.
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Okay, so another thread got me thinking...
What do atheists believe happen when you die?
Is this life the be-all, end-all?
If so, if there is no promise of 'reward' in an after-life, why conduct yourself morally? or do you? I mean obviously you don't want to spend this life in jail, etc... but hopefully you understand what I mean.
If you do not proclaim to be an atheist, please do not speculate. I really want to hear it from the source. I'm sure there will be lots of variety.
(Anyone can answer the poll up above. I just didn't want non-atheists answering for them.)
I'm an atheist, and I conduct myself morally because I feel compassion and a sense of responsibility to other individuals, living beings, and our planet.
If someone can't do that without a god, I feel relieved for them to follow one. They obviously need an exterior conscience, and other human beings need to be protected from them. That's my response every time I'm asked this question.
I don't know what happens when people die, but I tend to think it's the end.
That's what I put in the poll.
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Spinning back around to the topic of age...it seems adolescence/early adulthood is the most common time for landing in a different spiritual place than what you were raised with, or at least going through a crisis of faith.
For those who made such a transition later in life...how'd that work? It seems to me that as an adult I'm so set in my ways...when young so much else is changing. I'm always questioning and exploring, but to abandon one faith/worldview for another? Even though not currently invested in a faith community (indeed, my lack of connection with the local Heathen community has caused me a good deal of spiritual dissatisfaction, but around here you have to have money to get to even square one...money for transportation to public events or open study groups, money to get in to said events or groups, and even then networking is problematic. I haven't even gotten involved in UU again out here like I did for a while in TX because they charge for youth/children's programs at the UU's in this area.)
Solitary practice holds little fulfillment for me. It's very frustrating.
Anyway, as unfulfulling as my path has been in recent years, I have trouble wrapping my head around going elsewhere. Maybe it's just a phase of spiritual apathy because I have so many other things on my plate. Can anyone else relate?
There's a lot to unpack here, Ravin. I have plenty of thought, but need a little time to think through them and come up with any sort of coherent response :) I'll come back to it. But I want you to know that I'm certainly thinking, and have some of the same issues.
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Is anyone getting the new Gmail motion?
;)
check out Google!
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Funny that this poll is coming now, and I didn't have time to read all the replies, but I can say honestly say that the YE/OE and evolution/creation debate were the seeds of my un-conversion. Because I couldn't be "that kind of Christian", I began to doubt whether I could be one at all.
Once the doubts began, there was an avalanche. I began to think I needed to leave my brain in the parking lot every time I entered the church building. Right now, I am silently going through the motions for my kids, who've yet to make up their own minds, but I'm far far gone. It is sad really, because I miss the comfort I used to find in my faith.
I feel for you, Shari.
I was really glad my children were young enough that when we left, they got over it pretty quickly. There were some sad weeks, and one of my children was worried about going to Hell (and we were a saved-by-grace sort of family!--doesn't matter though, Hell is scary and it's a great stick).
What surprised me what that my oldest was relieved. "Oh, good," she said, "I had a hard time believing all of that anyway."
Two years previously, I'd have been beside myself with grief to think my children wouldn't believe. Now, I'm just relieved.
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With my whole heart, I understand what you are saying. Please believe me. I have that same sense of justice. It's finely tuned.
If I were to draw that cartoon, instead of God sitting in the chair, I would put US in the chair. That is OUR fault. *MY* fault. And it's what propels me.
I can appreciate that perspective.
To me, the difference is the Biblical God can simply alleviate the suffering of millions of dying children right now by simply willing it. You can't. Even if you took all of your money, and left your home and tried to get to those children and save them, you couldn't.
"God" can.
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Well, I really didn't want to get into this because I really just wanted to know about other people's experiences! But since you asked so nicely, I'll answer.
I believe that God exists outside of our belief - that He's a reality. And that Jesus Christ was a historical person who was truly the God -Man and that when He died, He had the ability to do what a normal person would not be able to do: to be a substitute for us in that death so that if we accept His death on our behalf, it really changes our relationship with God. I believe that His death was an actual death (He didn't just swoon or have a near death experience) but that what really counted was that He experienced spiritual death - separation from God for a period of time. Because He was a perfect man with no sinful nature, He was able to be a true substitute in that spiritual death for us. Because He was perfect God, He was able to be raised from that death.
I believe that when someone accepts Christ's death in their stead, that they are moved from a situation in which they are separated from God into a situation where they have a relationship with God and now share Christ's righteousness. I believe that invisible change is dependent wholly on God's grace and His faithfulness in having provided that sacrifice, not on my belief, even though my belief and acceptance of what He did is what allowed Him to make that change in me. That invisible change of getting Christ's righteousness is what is talked about when the Bible says that we are a "new creature/creation" (English word depends on the translation). I'm given eternal life as part of that invisible package as well as a bunch of other things. I believe that this entire package of invisible changes are just as real as anything you can actually see and touch. So - to finally answer your question - if I've had that entire package of real invisible changes given to me by God when I accepted Christ's sacrifice for me, those changes don't just go away by a change in my thinking.
Yep. That was what I believed too. :D
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I guess a person could be very anti-theist and then have an experience that for whatever reason causes them to believe a God exists.
I tend to think so too. I tend to think it would be more of an "experiential" event, not necessarily rationality that would get them there (to theism or deism, I mean). But, I could be wrong.
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and this is why there are people who talk about true Christians and false Christians.
Sorry, doesn't change my point.
But, now I know, if you're mean, you're not a Christian.
Got it!
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I once told a girl saying this kind of thing that I must not be a Real Christian then because I absolutely *could* choose not to believe. Since I was a Christian, she tried arguing the other way around. But I basically told her someday I'd walk away from the faith just to prove it. Of course, a few yrs later, I did.
I understand the theology behind it, but I don't think the people who preach it realize how it comes across. Or maybe they do--I hope not.
But isn't faith so much like love? There may be a season when it comes easy, when you're starry-eyed & your guy can do no wrong. And then there are seasons when you have to fight for it, when it *would* be easy to walk away. Those hard seasons, whether you walk away or not, don't take away the validity of the young love. And those hard seasons are really not for others to judge.
:grouphug:
It's not always easy to "walk away"! Plenty of apostates I've talked to have said it's the hardest thing they've ever done. Depression, fear of hell, loss of friends, an entire foundation of one's life--gone. It's terrifying. It's not easy. That's not something most devout people willingly go through. Many leave because they realize their religion is not true and they can't force themselves to believe again. That's hard, that's scary.
People who have really based their entire existence on their faith rarely saunter away.
While people may also point to things that pushed them out the door: hypocrisy, pain, etc. the point comes down to "I don't believe anymore". I think that's what people forget. Not, "I don't believe in Jesus because my Sunday School teacher was mean." But, "I don't believe in Jesus because, despite what Josh McDowell and other say, there's no real basis for believing in the Bible or his supernaturalness. Oh, and I began to question that based on the behavior of people who claimed to know him."
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:D
I just love you!
*feeling the love * :001_smile:
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Wait, why are you having this conversation on this thread? :confused: :confused:
Can't people talk about why they aren't Christians without the Christians butting in and discussing the "truth" of their beliefs? Sheesh!
That must be a rhetorical question. ;)
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I wish you were right. But I believe you are wrong.
The demons believe - true. Satan knows what you and I know - that Christ is the son of God. Is he a Christian - a follower of Christ, choosing to accept the gift of salvation and turning towards Christ to allow him to be the Lord over his life? Absolutely not.
And so it can be with those who have recognized the Truth. They can have known the truth and yet still turn their back on the gift of salvation, turning away from Christ and allowing themselves to be lord only of their lives. It is beyond my personal comprehension but of course it can happen.
Remember, Christianity is two fold - it is belief, but it also a free will choice. Christ can offer the gift, but you must choose to take it. And so by doing that can you not also give it back and say, "I don't want this." Satan knew Truth and chose instead to go his own way.
nm
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Yes.
Rather than "stop believing" I'd describe it more as a suspension of belief. W/out HELL or coercion, what conclusion do I come to? I spent more time reading philosophy & thinking about "Truth" than trying to *make* myself believe the "commands" of the Bible.
The number one thing, for me, was finding the less popular John 3:17--& I wasn't reading the Bible, so I don't remember how this happened...a conversation w/ dh, maybe? Yeah, because I remember arguing w/ him & making him look it up. Anyway, it says that Jesus did not come into the world to JUDGE it but to SAVE it. Coming from my background, that really floored me. And I thought I really knew the whole Bible really well, lol.
Jesus was not an intellectual assent for me. He was an undeniable presence w/ me even when I was rejecting him. He was the faithfulness of my Christian dh (to me) when I had walked away (from the faith).
The reliability of the Bible: I have never gone back to that in the same way as I did before. I believe it, but I don't...*worship* it. I hold the nature & character of God above Scripture. If he sent his Son to die for us, says the highest commands are to love him & love our neighbors, I'm going to be pretty suspicious of killing all the Hittites or some of Paul's harshness. I don't feel compelled to understand or defend everything. I'm okay saying, "That verse sucks" (in certain company, lol) w/out feeling compelled to understand, reject, defend, or anything else.
No church or denomination will ever again come between me & God.
I'm not sure which claims you mean. Dh calls me a heretic all the time, so...you know...maybe I don't believe them all, either. LOL
Thanks for replying. :)
Do you ever wonder if you're wrong?
in General Education Discussion Board
Posted
I spent 20 years as certain as I could be that I was right, but still considered that I could be wrong.
Now, I think I'm right too, but it's not worth my time.
It's like asking myself, "what if the color that I understand blue is not the same blue that others see, but our brains imagine the same blue differently."
Why waste my time on this when I already spent half of my life on it?
But, sure, let's just say that every time I see a religious post on the board I spend 5 seconds thinking about an so-called "after life", I suppose that's fair enough :)
I don't believe any of us will ever "know" what's after life. I don't think there's anything.