CindyJ
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Posts posted by CindyJ
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I really think that my dd did fine for the first 1/4 of the course, but the 2nd 1/4 got difficult. We actually only finished the first semester, which was chemistry. The second semester is physics (in the Physical Science DIVE CD). My dd is smart, but maybe was a little young for this course. It's also possible that she learned more than she thinks she did. I'll find out when she gets to chemistry. But it sure made my life easier, because Dr. Shoremann did all the work explaining the lessons, and I didn't have to do anything. And my dd learned how to take notes, organize her work, listen to lectures, and work well on her own. It was very good that way.
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I have used CLE language arts with my children, both with and without using the CLE spelling. The first year that we used CLE, we did the spelling also, but I decided that it bogged us down, so the next year, I had my children use SWO and skip the CLE spelling. So we just did the grammar in the CLE, and that worked better for us. I think the lessons just took too long when we did the CLE spelling. I can control the pace of SWO better, I guess. If we don't get to it one day, then we can double up another, but that is harder when we try to do both the grammar and spelling in the CLE booklet before we can proceed to the next lesson. Don't know if this makes sense.
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My dd did the Physical Science Dive CD. I thought it was good at the beginning, but she insists that she didn't understand it. It was a little on the difficult side for an 8th grader.
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I put two children in ps after homeschooling, and I do not think I was doing a bad job. But I still had one English teacher tell us, "I'm surprised your daughter does so well. Most homeschool children do poorly when they enter ps." I was kind of wondering which hs children she was referring to, as all the kids that I knew had gone into ps had scored very well in their placements tests. I believe she told us that she had heard this from other teachers; she had not personally experienced it. My kids were tested when they entered high school, and they scored at college level in their reading, and did just fine also in their math placement. One of my girls went into 7th grade, and was put to work helping other kids in their math, as she was way ahead. So I do not know where these teachers get this about hs kids being behind; I know some are, but many are ahead. It was a little annoying, because I think someone is spreading rumors.
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My understanding is that the Omnibus 1, 2, and 3 are for 7th-9th grades, technically, and that 4, 5, and 6 are for 10th-12th grades, so they may be thinking that beginning with 4 would be difficult for your 9th grader. I have used 1 and 2 with 8th-11th grades; I have not used volume 3. Volume 2 was really interesting, I thought, but volume 3 didn't appeal to me as much, so we chose to go with 1 and 2. I also think that the later 3 volumes, 4-6, cover the same periods as the first 3, but at a higher level, so if you start with 2, you could go on and do 3, 4, maybe skip 5, and do 6. You don't have to do them all, either; you could look at each volume and pick the ones you would rather do. But I would think that with a 9th grader, you might want to start with either 1, 2, or 3. HTH, but I am no expert.
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I think the class would be better. My dd did Physical Science this year with the DIVE CD, and while I thought it was very easy to use, my dd insisted that she didn't understand it very well and says she didn't learn anything. I think she did learn something, but it was very challenging, and I think she would have done better if she had had a GOOD teacher.
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You definitely do NOT need to use Saxon K, 1, etc., to use the high school level Saxon. John Saxon did not write the elementary level math texts, anyway. He wrote the algebra and upper texts, and then they put out 54, 65, 76, 87, Algebra 1/2 (the texts with two digits), before he died, but the elementary levels are totally different, and they move very slowly. The company put those out but he did not write those early levels, and I think something like A Beka or whatever you want to use is just fine. (I used A Beka - just the student texts alone). I switched into Saxon at level 54 for some, and with others, I waited and went into 76 or even Algebra 1/2. My dd that is still using A Beka will do Algebra 1/2 next year. HTH
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"The daughters probably didn't have time to say to themselves, "Ok, exactly what percentage of families have children who are behaving inappropriately?"
Nan in MASS, that is a very good point. You made some very good observations in your post. After I made my post, I actually thought also of an explanation. I taught school years ago, and I figured out that if I had a discipline problem in my classroom, I could almost always isolate the problem to 1 or 2 kids, but you don't necessarily notice that right away. All you notice right away is that the class in general is not behaving. But if you isolate the problem kids, and get them under control, then the rest of the class usually settles down. So it is possible that there were a few problem kids in that homeschool group, maybe one or two families even, that was creating the problem. Of course, then the whole group would have been blamed as being badly behaved. Because again, I knew that my friend's children were great. But you made some good points. I have heard other homeschool moms complain also about the behavior of kids during field trips, and maybe some of the moms are just tired. Maybe public school teachers are stricter, or something.
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I have a question about Saxon Algebra 2. I read on another board that maybe 2/3 of the content is geometry, and that it doesn't have all of the algebra 2 content of a standard text, so that the algebra 2 has to be finished in the Advanced Math text. Does anyone know if this is true? My ds is using it in his math class (his school uses Saxon, at least for some of their high school math), and he said recently that they had just gotten to some things that were covered in the SAT. That may just have been the pace of the class or the way things are arranged in the book, but I have been wondering about the book ever since I read that comment.
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I did put an honors English course on my ds's transcript when he was in 9th grade. We did the Omnibus Medieval year course in a class setting, and I felt that some of the reading was college level, plus we required a good bit of writing, which was graded by the mom who co-taught the course. I just felt that it was honors level, but I was thinking more along the lines of making a transcript for the high school that he ended up attending rather than college admissions. That would have made me more nervous. However, the school put the course on the transcript as an honors course, with no problem, and he has since taken their honors English courses, and done well, so I think it was fine.
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Mommyfaithe, your post was inspiring to me. You remind me of a mom I know who unschooled her girls, and they turned out great. I was so impressed, even though I sound like a snob about high standards. But she gave a lot of guidance. And the no television thing is really impressive.
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Jane in NC, I didn't mean to imply or say that homeschooling high school is an inferior choice. I don't think it is, and I would love to homeschool my youngest all the way through. I did homeschool two of mine partially in high school. I think that you have all said many things which are true, and which I agree with. My comments were made out of frustration with specific things that I have observed, and I don't take them back. But they are things I have observed and that you ladies have not observed, so that's all they are.
Martha in NM, you are right that I was not clear about what I considered to be low standards. Knowing how high everyone's standards are on this board, I expect you would all agree were I to describe the situations I was talking about. Your standards and posts often really challenge me to aim higher. But anyone can accuse someone of low standards; that is true. (One of the kids that I am thinking about will go to the CC this year, and he will probably turn out fine). And you're definitely right about the generalizations that teens can make. I am not basing my comments very much at all on comments my kids have made. Those older girls are now adults, and they are more objective now. We have observed both good and bad in homeschooling circles.
The thing that I wonder, as I observe both teens who go to school and homeschooled teens, is this. We all believe, I expect, that institutional school can create certain types of problems, which is why many of us choose to homeschool instead. It's not that hard to do a better job than some of those public schools, especially, out there. I just wonder if homeschooling can sometimes result in other types of problems, and if so, we can perhaps avoid those if we know what to look for. If kids need to be exposed to more positive role models than some homeschooled teens are exposed to, or have a larger peer group from which to choose their friends, then we can look for those things. Some of the kids I know just have very small and limited peer groups, because most of the kids their age are in school. And that peer group is not necessarily a positive influence.
I think for the sake of those who were very disturbed about the summer camp kids I mentioned, I will try to explain the situation better, because written remarks can come across so harsh, and I guess mine did. Both of my older girls worked several summers at a Christian conference center, which offered programs for the whole family for a week at a time. Every week, a new group came in, and a children's program was included. One of my daughters worked in the dining room; the other was asked to help teach in the children's program. One of the weeks during the summer was Homeschool Week; only homeschooling families came during that week and their kids participated in the children's program. Two years in a row, my girls, who had worked there all summer, came home flabbergasted at the behavior of the homeschooled kids. I encouraged them to remember that those kids might not be used to a group setting, so to be patient and encourage them to raise their hands, that sort of thing, but they said it was more than talking out of turn. I can't be specific with you, because it's been a few years, but it disturbed me. The dining room staff complained about too many kids running around unsupervised, that kind of thing. After all, I also homeschool, and what other homeschool families do reflects on me, as it does all of us. And I had friends who went during that week, and I knew their kids, and knew they were well-behaved, so I don't know what the problem was. But it was a consistent thing. I suppose it's possible that my dds went into that week disliking homeschoolers, but I can't imagine that being the case, especially because they had been homeschooled themselves, and have thanked me for homeschooling them. At that point, my oldest was in college anyway, and was chosen to teach because they thought she was responsible. I just think we need to be careful that we don't have a blindspot when it comes to our own children or to all homeschooled children, thinking that they are the most intelligent, best-behaved children just because they are homeschooled. I have seen the snobbery work both ways - from people who look down on homeschoolers, but also from homeschoolers who are very critical of anyone who puts their children in school. There are lovely families in both groups. But when I started homeschooling, there were many voices out there that, I thought, implied that homeschooling was the perfect solution to all of our educational problems. I have decided that it isn't, although it is a wonderful option.
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I have insulted all of you wonderful moms on this board, who are all, I'm sure, doing an outstanding job homeschooling your kids. I should never have been so honest. The thing is, I was observing people who probably don't read this board; you people on here are on another level entirely, and I expect your kids are mostly outstanding. I'm always blown away by the level of discourse here and by the high standards. But what I said about our youth group really is true, although it is also true that I am not talking about huge numbers of kids. I really have been homeschooling for many years, and really have observed homeschooling families for over 20 years, and I have been surprised by the low expectations that some of them have had. But I also know families who have very high expectations and who do a wonderful job. I have also had my own dd's come home shocked at the behavior of the homeschooled kids that they were working with in a summer camp situation, and listened to them compare those kids unfavorably to the other kids they had the rest of the summer (the ones who went to school). Maybe it's just that I've been surprised and disappointed that all homeschooled kids aren't perfect, but I've definitely seen just as many problems in the lives of the homeschoolers as in the lives of the schooled kids. It probably boils down to the families more than to the method of schooling. And Jane in NC, you are right about someone who is not educated being able to ensure that their children receive an education. It's an individual thing; you're right about that. I have been exposed to some people who did not receive a good education themselves, and really did not know that they were giving their own children a poor education, because their standards were so low. But I have lately been disturbed by things that I have observed happening in the lives of some of the homeschooled teens around me, and I do think that homeschoolers need to be careful; too many assume that homeschooling itself prevents or solves all kinds of problems.
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I think that CLE is excellent, but we have only used it through the 8th grade. I think the HS course is a little different, because it isn't revised yet. But if you haven't used it before, or if your student is rusty in grammar, you can use the 8th grade course for high school. My ds used only the first half of the 8th grade course when he was in 9th grade, and then went to a Christian school which pushes rigorous grammar. He did very well. You might want to order a couple of units to look at them, or look at samples online. It kind of depends on your goals, because I am a grammar/diagraming type of person. If you don't like that, you would not like the CLE.
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Tim Tebow is a good example for a lot of things, but not for the scholastic end of homeschooling. He did not score very high on his SAT. But he is obviously well-rounded.
My kids, unfortunately, have the same attitude about other homeschoolers that your kids seem to have. They think they're nerdy, lacking in social skills, and behind academically. I suppose my kids are a little snobby, but I think their assessment is based on real kids that they know/have known, and there is a lot of truth to those observations. They, of course, think they are the exceptions. I do know that I was very shocked a few years ago when I was sharing my schedule with some other homeschooling moms. They were so relaxed about their kids' studies, that they thought I was extreme, and I was just making sure the work got done. But I think that we all come to homeschooling with a certain educational background, and I kind of think that if we ourselves have not received a good education, then we have no idea how to pass on a better one, because we don't know the difference. These other homeschool moms had not gone to college and did not know what a good education was. Plus, our family knows too many kids who have been homeschooled all their lives, and then fall apart when they encounter the real world. I personally think that they have not had enough exposure to positive role models; their experience has been so limited with regards to other adults or older kids who have excelled in various ways. Some homeschoolers think that their kids just need to hang around their parents all the time, but that is pretty short-sighted. I have noticed a difference between the homeschooled kids that we have in our youth group and the kids from the Christian school, especially. (My ds now attends the Christian school). Of course, there are exceptions, but the Christian school kids are respectful and socially mature; noticeably more-so than the homeschooled kids. I love homeschooling, but my kids have wanted to be "like the other kids" and go to school in high school. They tell me that they are better prepared to face the world than the over-sheltered homeschooled kids that they know. So I guess the question is how to accomplish some of those same things when kids are homeschooled all the way through, because I do know some wonderful homeschooled kids.
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My son, who loves history and reads it all the time, has read the BJU U.S. history book for fun. He also uses it in his school, but he had already read it over the summer. (He is a junior). My daughter, who is in the 8th grade and hates history, actually likes the Hakim books, so that is what I have had her do this year. I think they are very liberal, but they are also interesting and thought-provoking.
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Don't you think that one big component in math learning is developmental? I think of my own experience when I was growing up; I wasn't very good at math at all in the 7th grade. (They had also introduced new math then; I didn't understand it). But when I got to 8th grade, the teacher wanted to move me into a more difficult class, because all of a sudden, I was good at math. I didn't take algebra until 9th grade, which was when most people took it back then, but I was good at algebra. If I had taken it sooner, I might have struggled. I had teachers later who encouraged me to major in math, including my calculus professor in college. I think that, since algebra is basically logic, it is not good to push it too soon, and that beyond the curriculum, we have to think of the development of each child. Plus, I think that what Jann said about learning styles is probably very true. I know that my learning style demands lots of practice over the same concept; I would be frustrated with only touching upon new things. I kind of wonder if Saxon is more effective with kids who are naturally better at math, just as a result of observing my own kids. The two who breezed through Saxon are naturally more math-minded, I think, than the others were. I really wonder about the wisdom of having most kids do algebra in 8th grade, which is what most public schools require now, because if they are not ready to do algebra at that stage, they may never like or do well in math, whereas if they had just waited a year to do algebra, they might have excelled. However, I guess that's a different topic.
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Just for what it's worth, my ds used Lial's Introductory Algebra when he was in 8th grade, and although I felt it was excellent, he could not transition from Lial's into Saxon Algebra 2, which I needed him to do; Lial's did not provide adequate background. So I had to put him into Saxon Algebra 1 after Lial's Introductory Algebra; I put down Lial's as a pre-algebra program. Part of the problem could have been that he was not able to finish the Lial's book; it is not divided into lessons.
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My dd is using the Dive Physical Science this year, and I am very pleased. It has made things so much easier for me, and I think he does a good job teaching the material; at least, my dd does fine on the lesson questions and the tests. I can't tell you exactly about the tone, because after the first couple of lessons, I stopped listening to them. (I am leaving the teaching up to him). He basically does all the teaching on the DIVE DVT; they have questions which they answer after the lecture, and then he goes over the answers with them. Before they listen to the lecture (about one a week), they are to find definitions to the vocabulary on his list; then they do the background reading; then they listen to the lecture and answer questions; last, they watch the lab and fill out the lab sheets. He has a syllabus online, and all written pages are printed from the CD or you can buy them. You can use any science book for your background reading as long as it has adequate information in it, but he prefers BJU because apparently it matches his syllabus better than any others. He also has a syllabus with online readings, if you prefer that. I think his lectures are more matter-of-fact, but you can go to the website and listen to maybe his introductory website, in which he tells you a little about himself. It works for us, although I think it is challenging, probably moreso than the Apologia. If you use any text other than BJU, you will have to do many of the background readings from the internet, because there isn't sufficient information in the other texts. If you are concerned about climate change, and you find it in the text that you use (such as BJU), just leave it out. It will not make a difference with the lecture, and I doubt it would be mentioned by him. I tried just using the internet for the readings, since he does have a syllabus for that, but I felt that the readings were closer to university level and very dry for my dd. HTH
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Try A Beka. It is very similar to Saxon, because it reviews everything constantly, so there is no way they can forget the old concepts, but it also introduces new things in increments. However, I think A Beka does a better job explaining than Saxon does, and a better job giving practice in the new concepts. Plus, every few lessons, they have a review lesson, so they don't have a new concept every single lesson. Another plus is that it is a worktext format, so they dont have to copy problems, and it is in color. I recently had my dd in Saxon 76, and she began to not understand and remember the new concepts around lesson 50, so I switched her into A Beka. I am very pleased. I have used A Beka for years with all 5 of my children, switching them into Saxon around 54 or 76, but each child is different. I only use the student worktext; I do not use the teacher's edition. There is an explanation at the top of each page every time a new concept is introduced; it is very easy to teach from that alone. The worktexts are around $15 or $20 apiece; you can't lose too much money trying it, I figure.
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Rod and Staff is probably the best thing out there, at least that I have ever seen, for teaching grammar thoroughly and in a way that kids understand, but I gave it up because it is too teacher-intensive for homeschooling. It would be perfect for a classroom. Plus, it's not in worktext format. So we use CLE now, and it is also very good. We kind of go back and forth between CLE and A Beka. When we used R&S for language arts, my kids, in one year, went from the 50th percentile to the 98th percentile in language arts on the CAT that they took, and they were each using a grade level behind their current grade. In fact, I think that my dd went from the 38th percentile to the 98th.
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I use this with my 6th grader and 8th grader. We skip the spelling and penmanship, because otherwise, we have a hard time getting to everything every day. We just use the grammar. It is excellent, in my opinion. I wanted my children to learn how to diagram sentences, and they diagram almost every day, but just a few sentences. They do constant review, as in Saxon math. And it is so easy to teach.
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CHOW is wonderful. You can't go wrong buying it. My oldest dd is 26 now, and she still loves it after using it in the 4th grade for our history text.
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I had the same reaction that you had, Virginia. My children have used IEW at various times with another mother, who was teaching it to a class. I felt like the writing was somewhat stilted, and the method seemed odd to me. It seemed very strange to me to be asked to include certain types of words when they didn't necessarily fit. I let my children go ahead and take it, and didn't worry, but I definitely didn't want to invest in it myself. I don't think I would necessarily worry about it, if they are just taking a short course in IEW, because some children may learn to use some writing techniques they would not otherwise think about, and those who are naturally good writers will probably gravitate away from artificial sounding expressions. But I have at least three children who are quite good writers, and I think it came from reading a lot and learning to think analytically, as opposed to studying specific techniques.
Has anyone used Omnibus - but not part of a group?
in High School and Self-Education Board
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I used Omnibus 1 with my ds; I just asked him the discussion questions, and it worked fine.