Hobbes
-
Posts
759 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Blogs
Classifieds
Store
Posts posted by Hobbes
-
-
We have done Latin and formal logic, as well as informal logic (fallacies). I don’t think Latin replaces the study of logic as a system.
We do some of the logic puzzles books, but mostly for fun. I think games requiring one to think ahead logically and strategize are good as well and help one develop thinking skills, as do any foreign language studies, math, especially word problems, and the reading and discussion of excellent literature. These are all different than studying formal logic as in the Memoria Press curricula and others,
So looking at it as having a battery of ways to approach various aspects of logic and thinking skills. I appreciate that perspective and will keep it mind, thank you!
-
Improvising is not a big part of the piano instruction for my 7 and 9 yos and it wasn't for me at that age. I hated it when it did come up. I had one teacher who asked for a lot of improv and it was a confusing year and I didn't learn much. I definitely do not think it is essential. My 9yo does some on her own because that's who she is, but for my 7yo, it would be overwhelming. I agree with the copywork analogy... beginner pianists don't have the tools for a lot of improv.
-
I'd copy the last test of the year and give it to her. If she makes a 95% or better, I'd give her a placement exam for the program and see where she would be.
I agree. And if she tests out of gr 1 completely, then consider whether it's an issue with the program or the level. MM might be a better fit, but not automatically so.
-
No btdt experience, but here's my two cents anyway ;):
Latin-wise, we've done GSWL (end of 5th and beginning of 6th) and are now doing Visual Latin (supplemented with more explicit grammar work). My logic plans were to do the MP sequence or something like it, starting in 7th or 8th (probably when we're done with spelling, because that will open up a space for it). We haven't done any informal logic, except for fun - I suppose I've seen a good, solid foundation in LA and math as the best prep for both Latin and logic, and I hadn't really thought of Latin as prep for logic. Nor had I thought of Latin as partially replacing a formal study of logic. (Not sure which of those - Latin as logic *prep*, or Latin as logic *replacement* (or both) - was your focus.)
Now that I *am* thinking of it ;), and attempted to use google-fu to uncover some relevant results from the board, I think a key assumption underlying Latin as (partial) logic *replacement* is seeing logic more as a skill - a way of thinking - than seeing it as having particular *content*. (And certainly it's common to view the value of Latin in general in how it teaches a way of thinking, instead of the primary value lying in learning the particular *content* of the Latin language.)
So if "teaching logic" mostly means "teaching logical thinking" - attention to detail and making precise distinctions, not letting misplaced emotions or faulty thinking blind you to the facts on the ground, crafting an argument or procedure that makes everything explicit and states all assumptions - then certainly Latin can help with respect to learning to pay attention to details and make precise distinctions. Latin can also improve language skills and thinking skills in general. And Latin texts might provide good examples of logical thinking. I can definitely get behind Latin-as-logic-prep, though I hadn't thought of Latin that way.
But I'm pretty skeptical about Latin-as-logic-replacement, since I take the position that formal logic involves specific *content*, not just a general "way of thinking". Although you were particularly referring to Latin as replacing *early* logic study, and it may be that early logic study is basically all prep-for-logic anyway. (And I never planned anything special for logic-prep - just planned to start with formal logic anyway.) In any case, I don't think of Latin *content* (and the habits of mind studying Latin develops) as a replacement for formal logic *content* (and the habits of mind studying formal logic develops). It's why I don't see computer programming or math proofs and such - other things that require logical thinking - as an equivalent replacement for the study of formal logic. The content is different, and that *matters*.
My phone won't multiquote, so...
I think I was wondering about both, though I didn't really see how Latin could be formal logic study. I wish I could find the thread where this specifically came up - I read a lot of threads. But your definition narrows it down quite well and based on that, I'd say that I'm interested in Latin as logic prep (though the following posts make me think might like to incorporate more than that). Anyway, helpful definition of terms. Very useful to think in terms of skill vs content.
-
Logic was fun to do as a group, too. Whenever I found a good logic book, in addition to the WTM recs, I would have all of us do it as part of our group time. It was fast, fun, and somewhat easy when we did it together, orally, using white boards.
I will have to remember this! We do well with Morning Time stuff, this would be a great addition.
-
1
-
-
Thank you all for this. I really like having an overview of where we are headed and this helps. Looking at Latin as logic exercise vs Logic study itself makes a lot of sense. And I really like hearing how this looks as it works out for individual kids.
-
I've been digging through old Latin threads here, working out a vision for our possible Latin trajectory. It's been helpful! But I've been noticing that various posters talk about using Latin for logic. While I know that Latin is great for logic, I always assumed that we'd do formal logic as well.
So for those of you who have done ongoing Latin, how much and what do you do for logic? Do you do less of it, ex: just a year or two in higher levels and let Latin be the logic in younger grades?
Very interested to hear. I'll have a 5th grader next year and am planning on GSWL and then likely Henle (I have a Latin background and like the Henle approach). Where does logic come in?
ETA: I did a Google search for this, but it turns up every Latin thread from the logic stage board...
-
I have a 7/almost 8yo 3rd grader and a 9/almost 10yo 4th grader.
Our day typically runs from 8:30 to 12:30 ish. The 3rd grader often has some break time in there while the 4th finishes some things.
8:30 - Morning Feast (starts while they eat breakfast) - Bible, prayer, hymn, memory work, French, history and literature read alouds.
10ish - 12ish - 3rd grader does MM3, copywork/WWE, journal, reading, ETC, handwriting, Xtra Math drill. 4th grader does MM4, WWE/BW, journal, Prima Latina, Xtra Math drill, handwriting, spelling.
After that or right after lunch we do history, chemistry, or art.
We don't really take breaks other than a quick run and stretch - they lose focus when they go off to do something else. Switching subjects seems to keep them focused enough.
ETA: this is 4 days a week. The Wednesday is spent at a morning class and in the afternoon, we do poetry tea.
-
You could do math with the olders and just wait with the kinder if you are pressed for time. I've never done math officially before second grade and neither of my kids so far had trouble jumping into MM2. There is so much repetition in the early grades.
During K and 1st, I bought the MUS blocks and they played with them a lot. I showed them basic addition and subtraction with the blocks (not a difficult concept in that context). I bought shape magnets and they played with them on the fridge and we used the shape names. They baked with me. We counted things. I got a child's measuring tape and they measured things. We had a calendar in the kitchen and pointed out days and discussed our weeks. It was easy, fun, and simple.
If you are pressed for enough time to work with everyone in the younger grades, I've found that K and even 1st math does not need the time commitment of a curriculum.
-
3
-
-
We are doing RSO Chemistry and I don't find it lacking. It's been a favourite so far. In fact, there is enough to it that I've cut some things and the kids still have had a lot to work with and learn. I think it's a great program. Extra reading is always good, if you want to add things.
-
1
-
-
Neither of mine were reading at 5 or at 6. My oldest "knew" how to read in theory at 6ish, but hated getting things wrong, so just didn't bother trying. She started simple chapter books (Boxcar Children) at 7, when she suddenly decided that she could read. Until then, she devoured read alouds and audio books. She is now 9 and a voracious reader.
My second is almost 8 and has more or less learned to read in the past year, but is still working on fluency. It's only been the past few months that she is comfortable enough that I've seen her choose to read on her own and it is still sporadic.
With my first, I was concerned about timing. I will be much less so with the next two. Five is so young.
-
The Rod and Staff 4th grade level is excellent. We are taking a break to do some AAS since my 4th grader needs some foundational things addressed, but I'm still impressed by the R&S program and hope to come back to it.
-
My second is a very young 3rd - I just use the grade label for admin purposes, as that is where she would be in our district and a lot of activities are organized by grade. Her work falls into both gr 2 and 3 levels. She is relatively good at narration, is barely getting started with spelling and independent writing.
We do all our work in the morning, at the kitchen table. I am therefore more or less available, depending on the need.
Our day starts at 8:30 (as they finish breakfast) with Morning Feast. Morning Feast is anywhere from 1-2 hours and includes Bible, prayer, memory work, poetry, French, literature, and read alouds from various subjects. This is very geared for the gr 3-4 level.
After Feast we do independent work. I make checklists at the beginning of each week, with daily assignments. It keeps me on track as much as them. The days' work is grouped into work they can do independently and work to do with me.
3rd grader's independent work: journal, Explode the Code, Pentime Handwriting, Xtra Math.
Work with me: the end of OPGTR, buddy reading, MM3, copywork (used for grammar & spelling). Once a week each we all do chemistry or history together.
She practices piano daily for about 15 mins. She has daily and weekly jobs, totally about 1/2 an hour. Weekly ones are things like clean out van, sweep basement, dust house, fold and put away her laundry.
She keeps herself busy playing with little brothers, biking with friends on the street, playing Playmobil and listening to audio books during quiet time, climbing everything, making up races and things like that, and doing craft projects with her sister.
-
I do think that sitting for read alouds is a skill that can be trained over time. Some kids will find it easier than others, but all can learn it, to a greater or lesser degree.
My oldest is a very still, story-absorbed child. Constantly reading. My second never stops moving - she's like a sweet monkey. Both love and sit for read alouds. It took time, frequency, and gentle training, but we got there. Now my three yo is developing an appetite for story and he loves to be read to.
I do teach them to hold their thoughts and interruptions (as is natural/doable). When we read for a long time, they will often snuggle, colour, play with small toys.
I think that, to some extent, it's a developed family practice and kids do develop the necessary skills.
ETA: audio books here mostly happen during our afternoon quiet time. Each child is on his or her own, with an audio book and things to do (art supplies, Playmobil, Lego, etc). They listen while they quietly play. They don't have to sit still for the audio book.
-
I said yes - that schedule would quickly reduce me and a few of my kids to a little puddle on the floor. But you are not me. ☺ï¸
I know others will can handle a lot more, but I'd say this is on the hefty end of what I've seen. We aim for minimal extracurricular activities, because family evening time is a big priority for us.
We do:
Mon - piano (teacher comes here ðŸ˜)
Tues - afternoon and evening are spent at grandma and grandpa's house - mama does errands and then we have date night
Weds - Morning is out at a combo women's Bible study/homeschool class
Sunday - church all morning
Some semesters there are swimming lessons or gymnastics in there. We try to be hospitable frequently. We have play dates once or twice a month.
-
With my maybe-dyslexic/dysgraphic left-handed oldest (whose ability to either see or hear the details of words was about nil, and her atrocious spelling showed it), cursive went badly at first. Our program jumped from letters to words quickly, and it wasn't surprising that she couldn't spell cursive words that she couldn't spell in print, kwim? I've read that writing in cursive requires the ability to spell syllable-by-syllable (instead of letter-by-letter), and dd definitely couldn't do that - she was unable to break words into syllables, or break syllables into individual sounds. Also, despite my phonics teaching, she was a pure visual reader. I think contributed to her trouble with cursive, because the words all looked different in cursive and she was unable to sound them out.
So after she learned individual letters, I had her practice all the phonograms and blends in cursive before proceeding to words. (She had a cursive model for these steps.) Then I had her work through all the CVC words in our phonics book, then all the blends, and then the basic two-letter phonogram words (about 1800 words in all - she did 20 per day). She did not have a cursive model in front of her for the words, though she had a cursive reference sheet. (I called it cursive practice, and it was, but it was also covert blending practice, to help remediate her whole-word reading. I actually ran her and her younger sister through the same set of words at the same time - cursive practice for the older and spelling-to-read practice for my younger.) At the same time I was working on her ability to break words into syllables and blend syllables together and to spell syllable-by-syllable; I also worked on her ability to visually notice the individual phonograms in words. By the end, she'd written 1800 one-syllable words and had plenty of practice with all the basic syllable types and variations, and had the ability to break words into syllables and spell them syllable-by-syllable, and was able to write in cursive anything she could write in print. (And her spelling was tremendously improved.)
It took a decent bit of work for dd to learn cursive. I think we spent half a year on letters/phonograms/blends (practicing 4 a day and repeating until she felt solid on them) - I'd went through and wrote all the possible phonograms/blends/two-letter-combos she could do for each lesson with the letters she'd learned up till that point. And then probably close to a year working through one-syllable words, from simple to complex (again, repeating as needed till she felt solid). But I did think it was worth it, and certainly the underlying issues that made cursive hard also made other things hard - pretty much all writing and spelling - and so remediating them was worthwhile for lots of reasons, not just for cursive.
This is an interesting approach. I am going to keep it in mind for my struggling speller. She's solid in cursive, but the spelling in chunks thing is hard - doing all the AAS dictation in cursive might be somewhat similar to this.
-
I was doing Treasured Conversations with my dd and ds but my ds has really not liked it. It would be a lot of juggling but I am thinking of just doing dictation from books he likes and have him do a narration for history, science and our literature instead but without a program. We also do Apples and Pears spelling. I would continue to use Treasure Conversations for dd because she likes it just fine and I think the skills it teaches coming up will be good for her where I think it will be too much writing for ds when we get to paragraph construction.
This is what I do and it works so well. The girls LOVE it when I give them sentences they recognize from books we are reading. It also offers more opportunity for talking about context, vocabulary, etc. I follow the WWE suggestions for grammar focus in each selection, just so I remember to vary things.
-
4
-
-
All About Spelling 1 does have exercises to help children recognize the different sounds in words. They have children start by saying a word, hearing the sound in it, and pulling down manipulative as they say each sound. It's simple but it helps.
I would also suggest if there's any phonics blends or sounds that you realize, while working with AAS, that your child also has trouble reading, I would go to www.progressivephonics.com, which has free phonics based readers that each start with short instructions (at least at the intermediate level, where we started with that), and I would find the reader that corresponds with whatever she's having trouble with and practice with that.
That's a good idea, to just follow up with some targeted phonics. I've never looked at that site, will check out. Thanks!
-
You want to find the right pace--so work quickly through words she has memorized and just needs to learn the skills, but spend more time and review when she needs more practice. You might want to check out:
Segmenting - helping her learn to hear and then represent every sound in a word.
Fast Track for Older Students - ideas on how to fast track
Auditory Processing - I suggest this one because of things like hearing a /d/ sound in "lines." The tips in this article can really help with strategies for helping her.
Those articles are great, thank you. I can see a few things that would probably help.
-
2
-
-
I would practice with the words and phrases for each step of AAS until she can spell them correctly. So, by fast I mean like 2 or 3 steps a week. So it has plenty of practice. You review the rules even after you finish the step they are in do you dont forget them. AAS has great help you can call or email and they are glad to answer and help.
The first part of level 1 may be very easy but it gets harder around the middle of level 1. With my 6 year old son we do about a step a week or every other week but still have most rule cards in our review section. You may want to start out doing it totally as written then drop and add for your child. Tell your child that at first you are just learning the program and it will be easy.
You can easily do it without the the tiles. I don't use them much. My son doesn't mind writing and doesn't love the tiles. Just use a white board or even paper;)
This is helpful, thank you! I looked through level 1 this afternoon and I see what you mean about the speed and difficulty. By the middle of the level, it hits words she currently misspells. I'm hoping this will target some of her gaps!
-
I probably needs a bit of work but not full blown expensive extensive remediation, there is a good cheap book I linked in my phonemic awareness thread that should do the trick:
Along with, watch my blending video with her, look at the waveforms and explanation about the atomic nature of syllables on my dyslexia page:
http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/dyslexia.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q4KTyqpg5o&t=137s
And, watch Don Potter's phonovisual video with her and work on the sounds a bit while looking at how they are made https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEy9D4sBEok&index=3&list=PLJLxBWdK_5l3aBN-qowg2u8BdGYM64pTi
The vowel and consonant chart similar to the Phonovisual chart is linked from my Syllables page, link 3 in the student folder:
http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/syllablesspellsu.html
How they are made, on computer if you have the right version of flash or get the app, sounds of speech:
http://soundsofspeech.uiowa.edu/index.html#english
All About Spelling is good for working with the sounds. If you want a quick overview of the spelling rules you could go through my syllables program first, but do the phonemic awareness activities and work on sounds before you do anything else, it is like a pre-level that needs to be strong before the other will make sense.
Thank you for all of this! It all looks quite helpful.
-
1
-
-
Improving her phonics knowledge won't necessarily improve her spelling knowledge, so, no using R&S's Developing Better Reading" will not necessarily improve her spelling.
My go-to is Spalding. It covers all the bases: teaches children to read by teaching them to spell (yes, it is good for children who already read), penmanship, capitalization and punctuation, simple writing. You only need the manual (Writing Road to Reading) and a set of phonogram cards and you're good to go.
AAS would not "solidify phonics." She may or may not need more phonics. She needs spelling, so AAS would help. But I prefer Spalding. :-)
I know that spelling and phonics are not all the same thing. But she struggles with identifying the sounds in words, which is a phonics skill and a precursor to identifying sounds for spelling. If you don't understand phonics, you'll have a hard time spelling the correct sounds. And there is a fair amount of phonics in a program like AAS, especially at the beginning. All the sounds of the alphabet letters? OPGTR and AAS start the same way, with this. Blending is addressed in both - spelling starts to pull it back apart. Etc. While spelling and phonics differ, lots of spelling (especially early on) is phonics backwards.
I have a sense that she needs some strengthening on the phonics side of things as well as on the spelling side and I think it's possible to strengthen the two together, to some extent, especially if I am conscious of that need as we work through lessons.
I have looked at Spalding, but that's not the way j want to go.
-
4
-
-
It may be a phonemic awareness problem. Here is a free test to see:
https://www.spelfabet.com.au/2013/02/free-phonological-awareness-test/
If it is, I'll hunt down the phonemic awareness thread.
Interesting! She passed the test fine but had to think for a second about the last few. Initially missed a couple at the end and then rethought and switched her answers. Thoughts?
-
2
-
-
It's helpful to hear that experience, thank you! Makes me think AAS is the right track. I think she might find the tiles annoying so I might just use a whiteboard. I was all hesitant about switching but then realised I could do a break for AAS and the reassess.I am a good fast reader and learned easily, but my spelling was atrocious in school. My spelling improved dramatically when I took an Orton Gillingham class is college. Based on my experience, I would say take a break from R+S and do AAS. But do it at her pace. After the two levels you have you can revisit what to do next. If you decide to do more AAS, you may only need to teach her all the rules in a quickish way for it to stick. Then just finding used teachers manuals and a set of phonogram cards would work. I am using AAS, so I can try to answer any other questions...
Is it just going to be a lot of memorising rules or do they get a lot of opportunity to put them into practice?
ETA: I know there's a lot of practice in the program generally. I just mean, if I go through faster, will it hurt up the rules so we are mainly memorising?
-
2
-
Podcasts for 11 year old
in General Education Discussion Board
Posted
Classics for Kids is good! Composer history.