LEOW3301
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Posts posted by LEOW3301
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If you decide to look at Lutheran churches, based on what you have said I think you would fit in with LCMS or WELS ones but not with ELCA ones. The ELCA is much more liberal in their theologies and views of Scripture than the others.
Another book for you: "Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant: A Doctrinal Comparison of Three Christian Confessions"
Thank you for the book reference! I wrote it down. I also wrote down your suggestion for the Lutheran Church. I will have to see what ones are around here and see if it matches what you said. Thank you! :)
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I have them in my amazon cart now! Thank you!!! I have a lot of reading to do now! :)
Thank you for your help!
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I highly recommend Born Fundamental, Born Again Catholic by David Currie. It will answer all the questions you've mentioned here, plus more. As a Catholic convert, I believe the Church would be delighted to see you back again. I'll say a prayer for you today.
Great, I will look that book up! Thank you, and I could definitely use that prayer! :)
Thanks again!!!
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I know what it's like to live in a small town and not have many options! In the past though, we've lived in major metro areas and attended quite a smattering of churches over the years. :) My dh grew up in a very Irish Catholic church, and I grew up in a Lutheran church. We've also attended Methodist, Baptist, several non-denominational churches, and now another kind of non-denominational church that leans toward anabaptism.
Why has your dh given up on church altogether? Is it still important to him? (You don't really need to answer that, I'm just asking questions for you to think about.) And what denominations are in your town?
I do agree with some others that a Lutheran church might be a nice compromise. It holds some of the traditions that also exist in the Catholic church, and even some of their liturgy is the same. At the same time, it remains a Protestant church and your dh would probably feel comfortable there. That said, Lutheran churches seem to vary a lot! Some are more about tradition and others have a really strong Bible focus.
The Methodist church too can vary a lot. We attended one for several years with a preacher who was really amazing.
The church we attend now is very anti-religion in a way. It isn't about rules and doing things just right. We go because we like the pastor so much. He is very smart and very humble.
But, I think you and your dh need to think about what's important to you. In the end, I don't believe the main point needs to about rules and doctrine, unless you like that and it's important or helpful to you of course. For some people, I think those things can be more of a turn-off (maybe with your dh?). So what's most important to you? Do you want one with challenging sermons? Or with an outward/servant focus? Or with a good youth group? Or more of an orthodox style? I don't think there's a right or wrong. As Christians, we all live our faith differently and that's okay. I guess the main thing is how can Christ best "be" -- in me and through me. What kind of atmosphere best encourages me to live a life of love?
So, in what kind of church is God able to act through you, best?
Your post was great! You’ve given me a lot of information to discuss with him!
He would attend a church, if he could agree with their rules, etc.
I shouldn’t say he’s given up, just given up on religion. We’ve been studying the scriptures together at home every night as a family. I just want something more. Thanks for taking the time to write all of this out. I’ll share it with him and it’ll be a guide for us to think about for churches. You’ve given me facts to think about!
We’ve tried Methodist, but it wasn’t his style. We will have to look into the Lutheran Church.
Thank you!
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Mary is also referred to as the New Eve in Orthodoxy, just as Christ is the New Adam, so there is some male/female referencing there I guess. The world awaited a savior but first we had to say yes to God- free will and all. Her cooperation was essential to salvation, because God doesn't force himself on us. Mary represents us saying yes to God. Salvation is freely offered, but we have to accept the gift.
So as Adam and Eve brought sin and death into the world (through their free will and choices) and broke the relationship between God and humanity, Mary and Christ restore the right relationship between the human and the divine (through their free will and choices).
Orthodoxy has really beautiful theology along with a beautiful liturgy. All said with the disclaimer that I am not even Orthodox yet, merely a seeker. There is a lot of depth and symbolism that I can't even begin to explain in the ancient church and I am certainly no expert at all. But I have sought a lot of answers about Mary and the saints on my journey and this is my understanding so far.
I never thought of it that way! That helps me understand her better, as well as explaining it to my husband, too. I’ve learned a lot about Mary and the church from reading everybody’s responses and feel now I am better informed to explain it to him and maybe that’ll help him, too, to understand the church. Thank you for your post!
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I've thought for a long time that the side of Christianity that elevates Mary reflects the nature of the world as masculine and feminine, correlating with the yin and the yang or the idea of god and goddess in older religions, or maybe the idea of shekinah in Judaism (as explained through the Kabbalah).
It seems like only modern Christianity is wholly male-dominated in terms of the elevation of the masculine to divine or semi-divine (whatever you want to call Mary) roles; I thought originally that Islam was too, but on googling it seems that Allah is conceived of as having no gender, and is referred to as male as a grammatical construct.
Very interesting! Thank you for sharing that information!
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I wanted to add on one point about Mary that really helped me understand her role. Mary symbolizes the church. She was the first person who experienced Christ's salvation as he was literally inside her, coming to save all of us. She represents all of us who need Christ inside us as well.
I was raised Catholic but always struggled understanding Mary's role as well. Interestingly, my husband, raised Southern Baptist, did not blink an eye at any of the Mary doctrines while we were were studying and considering Eastern Orthodoxy. He said it was simple enough to him that Christ would honor his mother as well as his father. It was in the ten commandments.
Veneration and worship are two different things, and God knows each person's heart. As for intercession, we ask for those type of prayers continually from each other here in the Church militant on earth. Catholics and Orthodox also ask for those intercessions from the Church triumphant in heaven. If we are all one in Christ who has conquered the grave, then any of us can pray for each other, on earth and in heaven. It's not communicating with the dead if they are alive in Christ. And asking Mary to pray for you is not the same as praying to her. It's more like praying together.
I know not everyone understands or agrees with these doctrines. But I have been on a similar journey trying to find a church for the last year and I thought I would share. I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ wherever they stand on these issues and whatever denomination they attend.
That was wonderfully written! Thank you for taking the time to post that information and give me another way of underestimating Mary. I never thought of it in that way, but have a better understanding now. Thank you!
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I have appreciated this conversation today, thank you to those who have partaken. I, too, have learned some things. I do admit that it's difficult for me at this juncture in my life to fathom how we can accept the Scriptures from the early church fathers, but not the things they themselves believed and practiced. How -- or better yet, why -- would they allow into the canon of Scripture words or concepts that would condemn what they themselves practiced? The same bishops that gathered the writings and canonized the Scriptures over time venerated Mary, asked her to intercede for them, and called her blessed. The church was pretty fairly united back then. There weren't some Christians over here doing and believing one thing and some over there doing pretty different things and another further afield coming up with their own way of worshiping God; I've heard the concept of some secret remnant keeping things pure, but history doesn't bear that out. There wasn't one group giving us the Scriptures, having non-liturgical services, and receiving communion as a symbolic gesture while another was venerating Mary, honoring the saints, and serving Divine Liturgies where they received the Eucharist as the Body and Blood of Christ, and yet another sort of making things up as they felt led by the Spirit. No, there was unity for the most part until the schism* and historical texts make pretty clear what the beliefs and practices of the early church were. Which just brings me back to the original point I made above -- the Scriptures came from bishops who were highly liturgical, who called the Theotokos (God-bearer) blessed, who venerated saints and icons, and who believed that the bread and wine became the literal Body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist.
That was the sticking point for me anyway when we were deciding which route to traverse: What was the early church like and does that church still exist today? Please forgive if I have offended anyone.
*I'm obviously speaking very broadly here as there were some minor schisms, some smaller disagreements within the church (some of which eventually did grow into ones big enough to split the church into East and West), and of course people who did walk away from the Church for different beliefs; but it was nothing like what we see in Christianity today.
Thanks for taking the time to post this! Exactly my questions and what I’ve wondered, too!
I’ve learned a lot, too, and am grateful to all who’ve taken the time to post their beliefs and answers to my questions!
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I haven't read all responses, so forgive me if I am repeating things. (I don't have a ton of time tonight.)
But, I am Catholic. And for some of your questions, you might want to look into "A Minute in the Church" by Gus Lloyd. (There's at least 2 in the series.) The first one has mini-sermons (for that's what they are) on "call no man father" and "honoring Mary." To paraphrase his "Call no Man Father" mini-sermon, if Catholics too Matthew 23:9 literally, we couldn't even call our bio dads "dad." He ties in other verses (1 Cor 4:15 and Romans 4:16-17) that show that shouldn't be taken literally. And it ends:
It's clear that St. Paul knew exactly what Jesus meant...not to attribute the Fatherhood of God to any man. So the next time you see a priest, why not say, "Thanks, Father, for guiding your spiritual children." (The preceding excerpt isfrom the first volume of the book mentioned above.)
The first volume of Lloyd's also covers your concerns about confession and purgatory.
Sorry for the disjointed reply, but I have things to do now. I'll try to get back and give short answers to your other concerns later.
That’s great! Thank you for taking the time to respond and answer my questions! I will look that up and check it out!
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Hugs, OP. I’m sure this is a difficult time for you. If you are interested in (re)learning about the Church and what she teaches, I’d recommend first and foremost “The Catechism of the Catholic Churchâ€. It’s a bit of a tome, admittedly, however, it’s the Church’s teachings from the Church herself.
Alternatively, if you don’t feel up to the CCC, maybe try the Baltimore Catechism and/or “A Course in Religion†by Fr. John Laux. Both of these are 5-6 volumes, but are geared to kids/teens and are very helpful in explaining the Mass, Catholic beliefs, teachings, etc. We use both of these with our kids, especially in their Sacrament years (FHC & Confirmation).
I’ll look those up and check them out!
Thank you for the references!
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Another link for you, OP:
:)
ETA: Bowing out now. The rest of you can have at it. ;)
Thank you! :)
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This site may be helpful - https://chnetwork.org/answers-to-questions/
Thank you!!!! That site looks very informational and I hope to find all of my answers there! Thank you!!!
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Oh, you are most welcome. This is an area where I continue to learn, myself. In the Orthodox faith, it is not so much about a dogma of Mary (or of the saints) but about relationship. If you want a relationship, you can enter in but no one can make you--same as in human relationships. The dogmas are all about Christ and the dogmas (that which must be believed) is just to protect the Truth so you know exactly whom you are relating TO. That is the most important reason for the dogma--it's not for arguing about, but so we can know Christ as He is and find salvation (which means different things in Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant worlds).
If you want to ask anything about Orthodox Christianity, you can PM me or scout around the social group, here: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/forum/140-exploring-orthodox-christianity/
God be with you. :0) (and me, for that matter)
Thank you so much! I truly appreciate your help! I’ll look at that link!
God Bless!
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I certainly hope that you aren't going to wait until you 'understand everything biblically' before you make this decision -- I assure you, greater minds than mine or yours have been working on that goal for centuries! (Without consensus.)
Just trying to decide what religion would better suit my family and my beliefs....I’ve received a lot of help here and I’m very appreciative! :)
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If the leaders are Pharisees, it's hard for the organization they lead to function as a "church."
I think you are absolutely right to want church leadership to live out the Christian life. I'm sure you're allowing for flaws here and there, but if we're talking patterns of sin, then yeah. Keep looking.
Thank you! That’s exactly what I’m saying! :)
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I have no horse in this race and can’t help you decide between competing theologies, but to this point here I guess I would go by what those who profess the beliefs tell you about what it means and how it is approached rather than relying upon those who don’t have those beliefs and have a vested interest in being right on the matter tell you that x, y, or z is not right because it’s really a, b, and c.
Let them speak to their own beliefs and ask them to keep their opinions about the other to themselves. Get it straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak.
And now I am sadly out of horse metaphors.
That’s true! I am getting a good explanation about Catholicism here, so I’m appreciative!
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To me it just isn't a main issue. I am Catholic and have no problem with Mary and the saints but for me this isn't a hill to die on so to speak (I do realize I may not follow official doctrine). To me the main idea of Christianity is the love of God, the fact that he sent his son to save the world, the fact that we should love our neighbor (and that really means everyone, even our enemies), and to show mercy. Obviously, these are hard rules to live by but if we all tried the world would definitely be a better world (no matter whether there is a God or not).
As long as this is the main emphasis of a church I am absolutely fine with it. Obviously, everyone has personal preferences as to style of church etc. and these do matter. But the main deciding factor for me is the above. Whether we ask saints for interference, revere Mary etc. are to me mostly side issues.
That’s a great way to look at it!
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I wouldn't worry about that at all. First, the Catholic Church is generally quite happy if people show up (well, that may not be so much the case in the US but definitely where I live as so few parishioners attend). Also, in my experience the Catholic Church today is really quite merciful. While the Church obviously feels that it is the "right" one it does not doubt that other Christians (and non-Christians) can go to heaven.
As far as individual beliefs are concerned, there is some difference depending on the priest (and even within the church as such) but in general some disagreement wouldn't matter. For example there is no need to have anything to do with saints if it makes you uncomfortable. The Church does think saints are important but every person can chose how to implement them in their lives.
Thank you, that is very helpful information! I appreciate it!
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I have been unconvinced in the past, too. But it was largely through understanding what the Church *meant* by using words in a particular way that made sense of things. The words have to mean the same thing for discussion to happen
Eg., We have an advocate in Christ. EOx believe this. (I use EOx so I won't get confused with Essential Oils haha). But does that mean that NO ONE ELSe can advocate for us? My son has an advocate in his father...but also in his mother (that would be me).
We place our hope in Christ for everything, but that doesn't mean we can't place our hope in another for *something*. I have hope that I can learn to obey Christ because I see how Mary did.
Mary is "our life" because it is in the incarnation (the human portion contributed by Mary), in God become man, that we have our salvation. Mary provided the human life to Christ, and so we have life through Him.
I would not have responded to this had you not used the word "dangerous." In the modern world, 2/3 of Christianity believes in calling Mary "blessed" and insodoing defends the dogma of the Incarnation, the basis of all our hope and salvation--God made man. This has been the teaching of the church through time (until the 1500s) and space and deserves consideration.
I do not mean to set us against one another personally; I learn from you and value your speaking up, and note that you do so with clarity and grace. I mean to emulate you in this way, but I am almost certainly failing in this post. But I hope that we can stand in peace, even if we do not see eye-to-eye as we state what we believe.
Thank you for your explanation on Mary. It truly helps to see what other people believe and helps me, because I don’t truly understand Mary in the church. I just want to make sure I’m doing the right thing and also understanding everything biblically! I, too, don’t want to offend anyone and hope we can all stand in peace. Beautifully written and thank you for taking the time to write your beliefs! It helped me!
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Well, that's interesting. I don't see anything in that particular prayer of concern. What part do you disagree with? You quoted the Bible about not having a mediator but she's interceding, not mediating. Don't you pray for other people, MercyA? Or ask them to pray for you? To me, read carefully, this prayer is asking Mary (who is not dead, but "alive with Christ") to intercede for us, much like we'd ask a pastor or friend or grandmother to pray for us. We're hurting, please pray for us. And then the prayer ends with a plea that in all the suffering, we ultimately see Jesus (the fruit of her womb).
Now that's not to say I agree with all Catholic theology and practices regarding Mary, but now being in a liturgical church that reverences (not worships) Mary for a good several years now, I get it. We are told in Scripture that "all generations will call [her] blessed." Does our generation, does our church today, do we in our home -- regularly -- call her blessed? It should, we should. I think a lot was thrown out with the bathwater at the reformation, to the detriment of Christians. But then again, all that was a non-issue in the Christian east.
Thanks for your explanation. It helped me to better understand Mary and her role in the Church.
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Gotchya. I read it several times, but I wasn't sure by the phrasing if the children were in leadership or just their father. Thus, the caveat that if they're in leadership, it's a different story. I've seen that as well, and that is so frustrating. Definitely wise to shut that one down.
Finding a church is SO hard. I'm hoping what we're doing for my daughter works, but I have a feeling we may be looking for another church soon - which stinks because it took us a year to find this one. :/
I stink at my wording, so I apologize for any misunderstanding.
Yes, it’s so hard to find a church! I’ll pray for you and your family that you find one, too!
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Just wanted to say that I am stuck at Walmart, but will reply later to your specific questions. I promise!
Thanks! I appreciate it!
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It might help you to muse on the difference between when one "praises" a living person, vs "worshipping" them. Of course one can give a glowing speech in praise of a friend, family member or mentor -- without being accused of acts of worship.
Similarly, we are able to freely ask living people to join their prayers with our own in intercessory prayer.
The catholic view of Mary is pretty special -- but it is not praise in the sense of 'praise and worship', and it is not intercession in the sense that she is a nessisary mediator. You don't have to be uncomfortable with it if you don't want to be.
That’s what I am not really understanding. I guess I don’t understand Mary and the true sense of it. I’m only hearing what others try to tell me that are against Catholicism.
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So, if some bible studies are being led by 'adult children of the pastor' -- the family connection seems really relevant to you. As adults, if they are leaders and teachers in a congregation they should be doing that because they are qualified and effective. They don't become teachers because of who raised them.
So, I'm wondering: would it be such a serious issue if 'some people who lead bible study sometimes' have the habit of affirming a 'party line' position on alcohol, -- even if they are experimenting with what they really believe about alcohol when they think they might be unobserved? I think that's a pretty normal part of the process of changing your mind or questioning things.
As a leader, you don't always put your uncertainty or controversial opinions on display in formal settings. Sometimes you just say, "I've been thinking about that, but right now I think the standard answer is wisest." On the other hand, you also don't go ahead and live a completely double life. That's not a solid basis for being a leader.
People might be able to say these things about me. When I teach in my role as an adjunct prof at my local bible college, I affirm the statement of faith, and I don't speak of my own opinions if they differ and/or question elements of that statement -- especially if I'm not yet sure. In other, less formal settings, you might hear me muse positively on the other side of various hot topics.
I suppose there may be hypocrisy there, and maybe I should examine myself better... but I don't think it makes me a failure as a Christian.
I don’t believe it makes you a failure as a Christian. I just am stating it doesn’t help me further myself in my biblical walk with Christ. Just my personal belief. They aren’t failures either, I just need someone I can watch and learn from their walk in life.
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Church..need some advice
in The Chat Board
Posted
Thank you for all of the information! It helps to know about all the different religions that I’m not familiar with. I am going to look into it!
Thank you for your time!
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