1bassoon Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Looking for a logic program for ds next year - we really have loved LFC, and I'm wondering about their logic materials. Would we do two books in a year? Art of Argument and Argument Builders? How does it compare to other programs? TIA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Like the other informal logic course currently available to the home-school market, the Art of Argument will drag you into hot-button social issues such as abortion. Just so you are aware. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1bassoon Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 Yeah, Bill - that's not such a problem, here. I'm actually leaning more towards informal logic, just b/c that's about all I feel I can add to our packed, lots-o-kids schedule. But here's another question: So, what would be the pros & cons of studying informal vs. formal logic? We're not a heavy classical-approach family, but we do encourage academic rigor. I'm not sure I can add in another course to supervise in terms of formal logic, unless I can be pretty heavily convinced that it is crucial in terms of education and training. Wanna give it a shot? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine State Sue Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 (edited) We started AoA in January and will complete 1/2 of it by the end of the month. Here is my review so far: Art of Argument is published by Classical Academic Press: http://classicalacademicpress.com/ Pros: • Learning about the different fallacies Cons • Controversial topics: abortion, rape, homosexuality, prostitution, politics • Controversial people and/or topics that my teen does not know and does not care about: Reagan & Iran-Contra, Nixon & Watergate, Bush & Iraq War, Clinton & Monica, Howard Stern, Michael Dukakis & Willie Horton, Enron scandal, Matthew Shepard I don't know that we'll finish the book. Edited May 7, 2009 by Sue in St Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1bassoon Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 We started AoA and will complete 1/2 of it by the end of the month. Here is my review so far: Art of Argument is published by Classical Academic Press: http://classicalacademicpress.com/ Pros: • Learning about the different fallacies Cons • Controversial topics: abortion, rape, homosexuality, prostitution, politics • Controversial people and/or topics that my teen does not know and does not care about: Reagan & Iran-Contra, Nixon & Watergate, Bush & Iraq War, Clinton & Monica, Howard Stern, Michael Dukakis & Willie Horton, Enron scandal, Matthew Shepard I don't know that we'll finish the book. Hm. Well. That is sounding like a deal-breaker for me. Thanks for the review! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 yikes! so glad I opened this thread b/c I never in a mil would have thought of those topics - I thought this was for age 10 to 15?! My kids already know more than I'd like about all of that stuff. I certainly don't need to bring it into our formal discussions. I WAS goign to buy those for next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peela Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 We started AoA in January and will complete 1/2 of it by the end of the month. Here is my review so far: Art of Argument is published by Classical Academic Press: http://classicalacademicpress.com/ Pros: • Learning about the different fallacies Cons • Controversial topics: abortion, rape, homosexuality, prostitution, politics • Controversial people and/or topics that my teen does not know and does not care about: Reagan & Iran-Contra, Nixon & Watergate, Bush & Iraq War, Clinton & Monica, Howard Stern, Michael Dukakis & Willie Horton, Enron scandal, Matthew Shepard I don't know that we'll finish the book. Yeah, i was jsut coming across these types of things and wondering what was goign on. I had high hopes for this program, but if my 13 and 14 yos dont understand the political stuff (we are Australian anyway), and we have our own opinions about the moral stuff....well, I can go so far to adapt a program, but I am not sure any more if this is one of those programs I want to bother adapting. Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Yeah, i was jsut coming across these types of things and wondering what was goign on. I had high hopes for this program, but if my 13 and 14 yos dont understand the political stuff (we are Australian anyway), and we have our own opinions about the moral stuff....well, I can go so far to adapt a program, but I am not sure any more if this is one of those programs I want to bother adapting. Sigh. I have the program and plan to use it in the fall. I went through the entire book yesterday and I didn't like some of the examples for the reasons Sue listed. I plan to go through the book and see if I can come up with alternate discussions. The political discussions bother me more as they seem too outdated to be relevant to a 7th grader. I'm American and when some of those issues were happening I was paying no attention to politics. I do like the layout, pacing, and information taught so we are going to try and make it work. We may end up doing a lot of it orally however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karenciavo Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 I've used AoA in a co-op and at home with 2 sons. I would not recommend it for 10 year olds for sure (do they recommend it for ages 10 and up? I can't find that information), but for those people who discuss weighty matters such as politics, abortion, etc. with their teens it is a very good text. The majority of the text uses advertising and politics to discuss fallacies, there are very few of the more weighty topics. Abortion is mentioned 1/2 a dozen times or so. Usually it's an example used in the text, one time it's an assignment on whether abortion should be legal at least in the case of rape (appeal to pity.) As far as Howard Stern, homosexuality, Bill and Monica go I think some may get the wrong idea based on Sue's post (not that it was your intention Sue.) Howard Stern was included in the text one time in a sentence in an assignment identifying fallacies (Don't listen to Howard Stern because he is a long-haired, dope-smoking...) What kind of fallacy is that? That's it. Homosexuality is mentioned one time as well when the text very briefly discusses Matthew Shepard's tragic death and the fallout against conservatives who were lumped in with the murderers who did this, simply because they believe homosexuality is wrong behavior. There are no details given about Bill and Monica, there are a few examples of fallacies committed during his impeachment trial (fallacies on both sides.) Yes, overall it is conservative, but it gives examples of bad arguments from both sides of the aisle (GW Bush's post 9-11 speech that included you are either for us or for the terrorists, the GHW Bush's use of the Willie Horton ad are two that come to mind.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanaTron Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 I asked on the CAP forums once about appropriate age level, and I remember them recommending 7th grade and up. I could be misremembering, but that is what stuck in my brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staci in MO Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 But I own it and plan on using it next year. I think Karen echoed my first impressions. Those things are present but not belabored, from what I've seen so far. I personally am not bothered by their using older examples from politics. Any example from "current events" is going to be dated at some point. I may have to explain some background about when Reagan ran against Mondale, for instance, but it certainly won't hurt my dc to learn about those things. Just my 0.02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 It might be a small point, but reading the "sample pages" of AofA there is a very odd meeting between Socrates and a modern-day girl Tiffany, where they have a very non-Socratic dialogue. "Socrates" is essentially giving direct instruction. And I had to scratch my head, as the whole thing was so far off that I wondered if the authors had even read the dialogues that have come down to us through Plato and Xenophon. They could not have given less flavor to this "Socrates" (who had to be one of the most flavorful characters in world-history) and the whole passage stuck me as being rather inane. Not the way to inspire reading "the original". Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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