wyomingowl Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) She is 11 6th grade. She had the WISC IV and the Woodcott Johnson done. I also have several Dibels fluency scores. Test Scores On the Wisc IV, Verbal Comprehension Index 119 (90 Percentile) Similarities 14 Vocabulary 15 Comprehension 11 Perceptual Reasoning Index 127 (96 Percentile) Block Design 17 Picture Concepts 12 Matrix Reasoning 14 Working memory 107 (68 percentile) digit span 12 letter-number seq. 11 Processing speed 103 (58 percentile) coding score 8 symbol search 13 Woodcott Johnson (reported percentiles - standard score) (If its helpful :-))Standard score ranges: 121-130 superior 111 - 120 high average 90 - 110 average 80 - 89 low average Oral expression 96 - 126 Story recall 95 - 125 Picture Vocab 93 - 122 Listening Comprehension 86 - 116 Understanding Directions 84 - 115 Oral COmprehension 80 - 113 written expression 57 - 103 writing fluency 46 - 98 Writing Samples 66 - 106 basic reading skills 38 - 95 letter word identification 72 - 109 word attack 15 - 84 reading comprehension 75 - 110 passage comprehension 48 - 99 vocab 89 -118 Broad Reading 59 - 103 Reading FLuency 41 - 97 math calculation skills 38 - 95 calculation 50 - 100 math fluency 21 - 88 math reasoning 76 - 110 applied problems 84 -115 Quantitative concepts 55 - 102 Dibels Reading: January 2009 136 wcpm (grade level fluency 132 wcpm) March 2009 146 wcpm with 13 errors (fluency score 145 wcpm) Some more background: Rachael is a delightful chatty, bright child who is very creative and loves spatial games. She is also very logical and excels at math puzzles. She loves science and knows a great deal about it. Her auditory memory for words, jingles, and accents is extraordinary. As a former teacher, I have never met a student with such incredible strengths and incredible weaknesses. Rachael was first diagnosed at age 8 ( 3rd grade) When she tested then her working memory was weakest and her processing speed was fine. We did some vision therapy as she had/has some near far accomodation issues and some tracking issues. She also did 3 years of S.P.I.R.E. and EPS based Orton Gillingham multisensory explicit phonics program (according to their website). She did levels 2 through 5. (It has 8 levels) I am not sure how much of the encoding they did but it did seem to help her phonics. So my questions are: Where do I go from here? Especially what is top priority 1) What do the subscores mean and what do they tell me about what to concentrate on? 2)Is there a source I can read to get up to speed on interpreting these tests? 3)Her reading is on grade level according to DIBELS but her word attack and basic reading are weak with the Woodcott. Since reading is at grade level even though there is a significant gap do I try to remediate? 4) Could the low reading scores be due to weak working memory and not a phoenological weakness? 5) Do I work on working memory? 6) My real concern is that her writing is so weak, esp her spelling. I have yet to figure out how to teach this child to edit. She finds it so difficult even if I try and break it into small tasks. 7) Do I work on the spelling and how? Remediate encoding with Wilson’s or SPIRE? Reading Rewards? All about spelling? 9) Do we try a typing program? SO many questions and so little time! If you’ve made it this far Thanks for reading and any help you may have! Edited May 6, 2009 by wyomingowl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottakee Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 i have just a second but check out http://www.prometheantrust.org/soundfoundationsbooks.htm Their Apples and Pears spelling program is WONDERFUL. It works very well for kids with LDs, etc. Very easy to use and the spelling carries over to everyday work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy2BeautifulGirls Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I wish I could help you out here, but I'm at a loss. I would say for sure, though, that Orton Gillingham is an excellent program, and one worth sticking with. As far as her writing goes, could it be linked in to her reading ability? Maybe comprehension is the key here. Possibly she is reading, but unable to retain the information when she's done reading? If you back up a step and work on reading things on her independent level (not her instruction or frustration level), you can practice, practice, practice her comprehension. Once she is an absolute master at comprehending what she's reading, maybe the writing will follow suit? Hope someone can help you answer your questions. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Rachael was first diagnosed at age 8 ( 3rd grade) When she tested then her working memory was weakest and her processing speed was fine. Diagnosed with what? Her WISC IV gave you very little to go on. It told you only what you already know. She is bright, verbal and VERY visual spacial. You might want to look into some information on teaching visual spacial learners. None of these tests show an area that is by score low enough that it causes alarm. They do show that her memory and processing are significantly lower than her verbal and visual spacial skills. Her reading is just ok, I would work it with whatever literature/language program you would use anyway, not remediation. Make sure she is working at or slightly below grade level in some of her reading to work on speed and then lots of work on comprehension to make sure that keeps up. Her math is a little low too. Calculation is the best it gets, reasoning is probably lower. When math puzzles are visual spacial she is great when they are wordy they are probably difficult for her. Some visual spacial links: In this thread Handmaiden gives a description and link that are good. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87509&highlight=vsl This thread starts off bad, but if you skip to page 2, there are some GREAT posts on teaching visual spacial learners: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91436 See if those fit her and if they give you some ideas of which curriculums will really work for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I'm certainly no expert, but wondering if she might have auditory or other processing problems that are causing some of these scores? Have you had her checked for auditory processing problems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyomingowl Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 Diagnosed with what? She was diagnosed with a specific learning disability, yeah I know pretty generic, based on the discrepency model and two VT's with focusing and near far acomodation issues. None of these tests show an area that is by score low enough that it causes alarm. They do show that her memory and processing are significantly lower than her verbal and visual spacial skills. Her reading is just ok, I would work it with whatever literature/language program you would use anyway, not remediation. Make sure she is working at or slightly below grade level in some of her reading to work on speed and then lots of work on comprehension to make sure that keeps up. Even the subscore of 15 percentile in word attack? That concerned me a lot. I also feel that she should be reading at a higher level as she is obviously quite bright Her math is a little low too. Calculation is the best it gets, reasoning is probably lower. When math puzzles are visual spacial she is great when they are wordy they are probably difficult for her. No I would say her reasoning is better. She knows how to do the problem but then will calculate it wrong. I do agree that she does better on visual spatial problems. ALso she has a terrible time with automaticity of math facts. Some visual spacial links: In this thread Handmaiden gives a description and link that are good. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87509&highlight=vsl This thread starts off bad, but if you skip to page 2, there are some GREAT posts on teaching visual spacial learners: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91436 See if those fit her and if they give you some ideas of which curriculums will really work for her. I will check those out. Thanks for your input. Sheila Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Would you mind adding the standard scores to the Woodcock Johnson scores? I used to administer it, but it's a lot easier for me to "mine the data" if I have standard scores to compare to the scores on the WISC. Does your dd show any symptoms of ADHD? Her WISC scores are pretty characteristic both of ADHD and of dyslexia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyomingowl Posted May 6, 2009 Author Share Posted May 6, 2009 (edited) Will update now. No she has no obvious ADHD symptoms other than trouble falling asleep and an extremely high energy level. Has always been this way since 18 months. But usually has no trouble concentrating or sitting still except for writing. Likes to move when I read to her or she reads. I have always leaned towards dsylexia myself but perhaps I should look more carefully at a good list of ADHD symptoms. I have often found the lists very subjective and I admit have not given it much consideration. It is also true that vision symptoms are often similar to ADHD too. She does seem to make less reversals and have better mood control when taking fish oil but that is true of ADHD as well as dyslexia I believe. Off to update. Thanks Edited May 6, 2009 by wyomingowl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 These have a similar pattern to my son's scores (even the scores themselves) after he had completed vision therapy but before he began taking medication for ADHD (he's been tested three times). I have been told since that his scores show a classic gifted/LD profile. Of course the evaluator completely missed this. His major challenges are dyslexia and ADHD. He also has APD, but I believe that the problems this causes can fall under the dyslexia label. I would see if you can find a professional who specializes in dealing with twice exceptional children, preferably someone with experience with dyslexia. It took *years* for us to get a solid diagnosis for my son. I would recommend the books Overcoming Dyslexia by Sally Shaywitz and The Mislabeled Child by Brock and Fernette Eide. The Eides are experts in the area of gifted kids with dyslexia. They have some good information on their website too. Google "stealth dyslexia" and it should come up. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Even the subscore of 15 percentile in word attack? That concerned me a lot. I also feel that she should be reading at a higher level as she is obviously quite bright I would be concerned about the word attack score too. Her overall reading score doesn't show a need for remediation though. Maybe Laurie4b can give better advice about what to consider for this. No I would say her reasoning is better. She knows how to do the problem but then will calculate it wrong. I do agree that she does better on visual spatial problems. ALso she has a terrible time with automaticity of math facts. Again, I'm going to defer to Laurie. I'm not sure where to go with that. I think I'm out of my league here - sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyomingowl Posted May 6, 2009 Author Share Posted May 6, 2009 the day she was born. She is a cool kid. I just want to help her out. I appreciate all your help and your ability to admit that you don't know. Wish more people would do that. :) I will hope LaurieB has some insights. I would be concerned about the word attack score too. Her overall reading score doesn't show a need for remediation though. Maybe Laurie4b can give better advice about what to consider for this. Again, I'm going to defer to Laurie. I'm not sure where to go with that. I think I'm out of my league here - sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 the day she was born. She is a cool kid. I just want to help her out. I appreciate all your help and your ability to admit that you don't know. Wish more people would do that. :) I will hope LaurieB has some insights. Mine does the same thing - no one can figure him out. Those that think they know the most are usually the least helpful :lol: I'll just give you a :grouphug: and hope that you get good feedback soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 She is 11 6th grade. She had the WISC IV and the Woodcott Johnson done. I also have several Dibels fluency scores. Test Scores On the Wisc IV, Verbal Comprehension Index 119 (90 Percentile) Similarities 14 Vocabulary 15 Comprehension 11 Perceptual Reasoning Index 127 (96 Percentile) Block Design 17 Picture Concepts 12 Matrix Reasoning 14 Working memory 107 (68 percentile) digit span 12 letter-number seq. 11 Processing speed 103 (58 percentile) coding score 8 symbol search 13 These scores are a typical pattern with ADHD. Also, working memory and processing scores are often lower with gifted kids. The coding score is signficantly lower than the other subscores. That's impacted directly by dysgraphia. The processing and working memory scores are both dead average, so they shouldn't hold her up too badly. Her verbal and spatial reasoning scores show that she is very bright (top of high average to superior range). Great news and no really bad news. I don't know how to do sequential quotes---all I know how to do is hit the quote button and then erase part of it--so I"m going to do sequential posts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 She is 11 6th grade. She had the WISC IV and the Woodcott Johnson done. I also have several Dibels fluency scores. Woodcott Johnson (reported percentiles - standard score) (If its helpful :-))Standard score ranges: 121-130 superior 111 - 120 high average 90 - 110 average 80 - 89 low average Oral expression 96 - 126 Story recall 95 - 125 Picture Vocab 93 - 122 Listening Comprehension 86 - 116 Understanding Directions 84 - 115 Oral COmprehension 80 - 113 written expression 57 - 103 writing fluency 46 - 98 Writing Samples 66 - 106 basic reading skills 38 - 95 letter word identification 72 - 109 word attack 15 - 84 reading comprehension 75 - 110 passage comprehension 48 - 99 vocab 89 -118 Broad Reading 59 - 103 Reading FLuency 41 - 97 math calculation skills 38 - 95 calculation 50 - 100 math fluency 21 - 88 math reasoning 76 - 110 applied problems 84 -115 Quantitative concepts 55 - 102 For your dd to be working at her potential, you should see standard scores around her verbal and spatial reasoning level, so somewhere between 115-130. So the whole chunk of oral expression and listening comprehension are where you'd expect them to be, as is reading vocabulary. Her ability to think about math (that's the applied problems) is also in the same range. What is significant is that compared to her potential, which should be high average to superior (she should be above grade level) she is doing average work, with word attack being significantly lower than the rest of the scores. It is not even in the average range. This is especially significant given that you've been doing (or having a tutor do?) an Orton-Gillingham program, because it should work with nonsense words and that's just what word attack does. Usually kids who are being remediated with O-G will show a word attack score that is above their other reading scores--at least initially. Word identification is basically sight words. There is a very brief time for sounding out and most are not phonetically regular. So her sight word ability is signficantly better than her ability to sound out words. In math, she gets the concepts and practical math, but I"m guessing that she doesn't have math facts (multiplication tables, addition, etc.) and/or procedures memorized down pat and/or she makes careless errors. If she's making careless errors, I would give more attention to the possibility of ADD. Kids with dyslexia also often have trouble with their math facts. The local private school here that charges 10's of thousands of dollars for remediation uses the overteaching method for math facts. You can get the hang of it if you search for my post called "Overteaching spelling" in which I've applied overteaching to spelling. (You can use it for any kinds of facts.) What could all this mean? Has she had regular, consistent instruction? Are you a systematic teacher, or do you kinda fly by the seat of your pants? With regular systematic instruction in phonemic awareness, phonics, math facts, and spelling, you should be able to make a good dent in things. If you are Mrs. Consistency and she's had this type of instruction from the beginning, then I'd look into further testing . One thing that I would be interested in as the mom would be getting a C_TOPP (comprehensive test of phonemic something or other, LOL!) It has both a section on phonemic awareness and one on rapid naming. I'd want to know how deep the phonemic awareness deficit is ( there clearly is one, given the word attack scores). YOu can get this from a speech-lang. person probably somewhat cheaper than from a neuropsych. After seeing the results of the CTOPP, I might want to pursue more testing with a neuropsych. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 She is 11 6th grade. She had the WISC IV and the Woodcott Johnson done. So my questions are: Where do I go from here? Especially what is top priority 1) What do the subscores mean and what do they tell me about what to concentrate on? 2)Is there a source I can read to get up to speed on interpreting these tests? 3)Her reading is on grade level according to DIBELS but her word attack and basic reading are weak with the Woodcott. Since reading is at grade level even though there is a significant gap do I try to remediate? 4) Could the low reading scores be due to weak working memory and not a phoenological weakness? 5) Do I work on working memory? 6) My real concern is that her writing is so weak, esp her spelling. I have yet to figure out how to teach this child to edit. She finds it so difficult even if I try and break it into small tasks. 7) Do I work on the spelling and how? Remediate encoding with Wilson’s or SPIRE? Reading Rewards? All about spelling? 9) Do we try a typing program? SO many questions and so little time! If you’ve made it this far Thanks for reading and any help you may have! Q. 1&2 I've answered in previous posts. Q. 3. This is up to you. With my kids, with similar profiles, I've worked to remediate to where I feel they are at their potential, rather than to grade level. I'd also involve your dd in this decision. Q. 4 her working memory could affect comprehension scores. It would not be affecting word attack, which is your clearest indication of phonemic issues. Q. 5 Yes, work on working memory. Brainware Safari was (perhaps still is) available from Homeschool Buyers Coop (no fee to join) for around $60. If not, the company sells it for $300. She will probably love it because she will be using her great spatial skills, but most of the games work on working memory. Additionally, there is a program called Cogmed. It has the distinction of actually having multiple double-blind studies published in peer-reviewed journals to back its efficacy. I had read about the studies, and wished that it was available commercially and later found out that it is. It is pricey--$1000-2000. But there are so many therapies out there without the research backing. Nothing compares. We're planning on starting this summer. Q5&6 Spelling: I made up my own method for teachings spelling which worked with two dyslexic ds's. They were already competent at phonetic spelling. I used the overteaching on the 300 most used words, which comprise about 65% of our written language. Cleaned up the spelling really well! I've gone on to using an O-G method. You could use Wilson for encoding, but I', guessing given her word attack, that she could use it for decoding as well. REWARDS does not really work with spelling, more reading. Once dd has the basic code down (ie she can decode regular short vowel nonsense syllables reliably with high accuracy (over 90%) and she has a decent grasp on long vowels and double vowels, then REWARDS is excellent for multisyllabic words. REWARDS Plus is very good for comprehension and test taking skills. It also has writing in it. Q9 Yes, teach typing. She should know anyway, but with dysgraphia, it will make a huge difference. For written expression, IEW works very well. I use the structure part of the program and parts of the style part. Do buy the basic program and watch the DVD's. He teaches the teaching method on the DVD's. Works wonders! If she has difficulty editing, again, I would be thinking ADD/ADHD. Kids with ADD don't focus on those minute details. IEW will address editing, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 I'm just jealous that you got the score breakdown. All my psych would give me for DS's WISC III (it was 8 years ago) was his composite score. At the time, I didn't care (or know better), now that I'm homeschooling, it really would have come in handy (and yes I asked, but they don't have the paperwork anymore...). asta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoastmom Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 I am in Canada and the criteria for learning disability is that a child shows average or above average intellectual (as is shown in her WISC IV scores) but there performance is 2 deviations below (and her Woodcock Johnson scores show that she is struggling) I have known people who did Vision Therapy, but if they didn't also do something to strengthen the vestibular system the gains didn't stick. When you say she is high energy, do you mean that she needs to move? I don't think there is anyone in Wyoming if that is where you are, but you should look into HANDLE program. I heard about it from a mom on the old board and took my daughter. She had tracking, accommodation and binocular vision problems (her eyes didn't team together well) After 6 months of doing HANDLE activities these things were all resolved. She went from having huge struggles learning to read to reading well above grade level. I know anothe mom who just did this program with her 10 year old who was diagnosed with learning disabilities. She is now getting As and Bs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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