Ambleside Online questions

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Please talk to me as if I know nothing about Charlotte Mason.

 

I'm trying to make sense of what the Ambleside Online curriculum is. I see that there are booklists and schedules for the books. What I don't see is what the expectations are that you will do once you read (narration? oral/written? how much dictation? How much art study or music study?)

 

I'm a bit overwhelmed and confused with what people are actually doing when they use AO.

 

Sample schedules would be a huge help. Commentary on general Charlotte Mason stuff would be lovely too.

[rowan25]

Ok, I'm a total newbie at CM. But I've found several yahoo groups affiliated with Ambleside. They have a wealth of information available, as well as sample schedules for every year. It really didn't make much sense to me until I joined a few of the groups and started looking at how they do it.

 

I'm curious for the more experienced among us to pipe up on the expectations part. I suppose I'm looking for an ultimate goal list. Year 1 should accomplish this, this and this--check, check, check.

 

I'll try and type more later when I've got more time

[musicianmom]

This is the blog that first introduced me to Ambleside Online.

 

http://higherupandfurtherin.blogspot.com

 

There's a LOT of information there.

 

The expectations as far as narrations, etc. are often left to the parent's discretion. I have heard a few guidelines such as "by year 4, the student should be reading all their own books". I think that written narrations and dictation also start in year 4.

 

I highly recommend the Yahoo groups, they have a lot of info, including schedules and such.

[rowan25]

I think they are working on "exams" for the Ambleside site as well, but I'm not sure. Right now I'm combing through all of the books in the house to make my "to buy" list! This is fun!!!

[Peela]

http://amblesideonline.org/FAQ.shtml#aboutcm

 

This is the FAQs and it covers what you are asking.

CM involves reading and narrating- orally when younger, then around age 10 or so, written narrations. Before that, writing is from copywork, then dictation. Spelling is learned through copwork/dictation.

As the child gets comfortable with narrating, the narrations progress to learning to write essays and the various forms of writing that are normal to learn. CM is broad. What it doesn't include is lots of workbooks or textbooks.

It is actually a very rigorous curriculum, and on the website are some exams and schedules from CM schools way back.

Basically, after every reading, whether read independently or aloud by the parent, the child relates back what they have read. In CM schools, at the end of term there would be narrations about anything they had read during the term. The point is/was not to test the child on what they do not know. The point is to train the child to pay close attention so that they only hear or read something once, and they retain it well- so well that even months later they may be able to tell you what it was about- and so to encourage the child to share what they do know. Narration prompts and exam questions are open ended. As the child gets older I find that narrations can end up in a kind of socratic dialogue, although I have never heard any CM person say that. .

Grammar is started later than WTM. Maths, foreign language, Science etc are with recommended programs but are fairly much standard although Science is based on Nature Study in the early years.

Short lessons are a mainstay of CM, as are breaking books down into smaller daily or weekly readings so that many books are read at the same time over a period of time. I am not strict CM at all but I think we have about 6 books going at any one time. Sometimes the kids prefer to focus on one book for a while more than others and I allow that but it's not CM. The point is that by reading a chapter a week, for example, the child must recall what has been read before and this trains the memory. It also means if a book is challenging or boring, at least it is only one of many weekly readings and doesn't have to be trudged through. Also, the point is to train the child to focus on their work, by keeping lessons and readings short.

I think its further from "normal " schooling than TWTM, but I think it is a method that works well for many kids. I like it- at least I use parts at times- because like TWTM it is a literary education, and any child who reads the Ambleside (or TWTM) books on the booklists will be extremely well read. And the CM methods are simple and uncomplicated, and can be done inexpensively.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

It was trying to read through the FAQ and the messages on one of the Ambleside email lists that made me realize that I just don't quite get what the proposed process is. Maybe I need to actually print out the FAQ in order to read it on paper and mark it up. I think I tend to skim too much on screen.

 

I did find For the Children's Sake at the library, so that maybe a bit of a help too.

 

But I'd still love to hear other folks' experience.

[stripe]

I have the same problem with reading online. But it is my experience that a lot of CM people are vague and / or noncomittal about a lot of things where it would be nice to find answers.

 

For example, try to find someone to articulate how to teach a child to read! The Ambleside people basically say, yes, we should write up something on that sometime; I found the group lists filled with some incredibly long and rambling posts that don't really address the issues but a lot about Victorian-style literature and why one shouldn't buy books that have been written in the last 50 years etc etc. I found that frustrating. Incidentally, I found (from a thread on this board) about Thogmartin's Teach a Child to Read with Children's Books, which I think is a well articulated, CM style (from what I know) of teaching reading.

 

I am also not impressed that there are all these extensive lists about the humanities, but no particular recommendation or commentary about math programs on Ambleside! But then CM herself said just use textbooks and seemed rather dismissive:

 

How valuable is math to everyday life? Those of us who never excelled in math will heartily agree with the respected military staff officer who said,

'I've never found that math, beyond simple addition, made any difference to my life except when taking my staff entrance exam. As far as the claim that math provides the challenge of mental exercise and training in accuracy, I don't agree that math is the most effective to develop that.'

from vol 6, section 3

 

I think you'll like For the Children's Sake; try to find When Children Love to Learn as well.

 

Simply Charlotte Mason can be a simpler, better organized way to look at an overview, so at least give this some consideration.

[OnTheBrink]

Subscribe to the yahoo groups. You'll find scads of specific information there. :)

[KS_]

Here are links to some of the AO groups - they provide a lot more information on how people use AO and how much/what they do for dictation, art study, etc.

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmbleRamble/

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmblesideOnline/

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmbleSide_Year1/

For Year 1, but there are specific groups for most of the years.

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AO-Member-Schedules/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AO_HEO_Schedules/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AO_Lesson_Plans/

[Rhonda in TX]

I have the same problem with reading online. But it is my experience that a lot of CM people are vague and / or noncomittal about a lot of things where it would be nice to find answers.

 

For example, try to find someone to articulate how to teach a child to read! The Ambleside people basically say, yes, we should write up something on that sometime; I found the group lists filled with some incredibly long and rambling posts that don't really address the issues but a lot about Victorian-style literature and why one shouldn't buy books that have been written in the last 50 years etc etc. I found that frustrating. Incidentally, I found (from a thread on this board) about Thogmartin's Teach a Child to Read with Children's Books, which I think is a well articulated, CM style (from what I know) of teaching reading.

 

 

Here's a link.

 

Honestly, that blog is a treasure of "how-tos" for the CM method. She will also answer email questions.

[stripe]

Here's a link.

 

Honestly, that blog is a treasure of "how-tos" for the CM method. She will also answer email questions.

Thanks!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Here are links to some of the AO groups - they provide a lot more information on how people use AO and how much/what they do for dictation, art study, etc.

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmbleRamble/

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmblesideOnline/

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmbleSide_Year1/

For Year 1, but there are specific groups for most of the years.

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AO-Member-Schedules/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AO_HEO_Schedules/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AO_Lesson_Plans/

 

Thank you for the links to groups. Maybe it is partly the time of year? One set of people finishing up, another already decided but gearing up, but fewer who are contemplating what is what? I may have to spend some time reading the messages from the archives where I can track various threads better and go through file sections.

I was getting a bit frustrated with the "refer to FAQ section" links on the website when it was the FAQ that was where I was starting from.

[rowan25]

I was getting a bit frustrated with the "refer to FAQ section" links on the website when it was the FAQ that was where I was starting from.

 

This is where I was a month ago. I found LBC (http://www.livingbookscurriculum.com/) and that helped some. Mainly what has helped for me is getting the Yahoo groups and reading, reading, reading their archives and current posts. I did some searches here and that helped as well. Of course, now I'm looking at combined AO with WTM and totally making myself crazy!!!!!

 

Later on during naptime and after doing the floors, I'll try and post some of the threads that helped me. But mainly it was the yahoo groups.

[KS_]

This is where I was a month ago. I found LBC (http://www.livingbookscurriculum.com/) and that helped some. Mainly what has helped for me is getting the Yahoo groups and reading, reading, reading their archives and current posts. I did some searches here and that helped as well.

 

I agree - just read up in the archives on specific questions you have. It really can be overwhelming when you first start looking at it. I honestly didn't really get the gist of how everything was supposed to fit together until we started - and I'm still learning how to fit the extras in (like art and composer study). But it's such a great program, and the folks on the Yahoo groups are very helpful :)

[Dianne-TX]

It was trying to read through the FAQ and the messages on one of the Ambleside email lists that made me realize that I just don't quite get what the proposed process is. Maybe I need to actually print out the FAQ in order to read it on paper and mark it up. I think I tend to skim too much on screen.

 

I did find For the Children's Sake at the library, so that maybe a bit of a help too.

 

But I'd still love to hear other folks' experience.

 

It definitely helped me, so I would suggest you print them out and go through them slowly. I read For the Children's Sake, too, and it was excellent! We use AO, but I wouldn't say I'm a pure CM person. I hold to it more than anything, though. I would say it lives up to the phrase, "Education is a lifestyle." Everything we do revolves around what value it has to our life. The depth of literature they choose is remarkable.

[Testimony]

that if I just did it, it would work out. Just so that you understand, the desire is to have a free education for anyone. I spoke to one of the creators of Ambleside Online (her children are on my son's frisbee team). Also, the idea is for a child to savor a book not just read a book to completion. I struggled at first with stopping a child at a certain page instead of at the end of a chapter. I thought would they forget the story. I was wrong. My children still remember the books that I have read to them or that they have read. There is a lot of reading.

 

Here's a little of what I do with my older son in the program:

 

He usually reads 3 pages of Plutarch and 6 pages of Tales from Shakespeare.

 

He narrates these books by drawing pictures to tell the story. He actually got the idea to make comic books out of the Shakespeare. We have done puppet shows with them also.

 

He reads history (I use Story of the World instead) and science. He narrates by writing a letter to someone or he has orally told me the story and I write it. He summarizes his science in a science notebook.

 

He reads his literature and does some of the free reading books, not all.

 

I hope that helps!

 

Blessings in your homeschooling journey!

 

Sincerely,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[stripe]

I have looked more closely at the description on how to read by Higher Up and Further In, given previously.

 

I have observed that the author clearly states that this is not CM's method.

 

Which brings me back to my point -- Ambleside does not give clear directions on teaching a child to read, nor on selecting a math curriculum. I've read what they (didn't) have to say on their groups, at one time; what the moderators, etc. said was along the lines of "we should do that one day." I find Ambleside to have many interesting ideas on the humanities, but lacking on these very important points.

[FloridaMomTo5]

Here is a very helpful site referring to AO http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cheps/ao-start.html

 

It is necessary to understand that if you're wanting to follow a CM method of hsing you MUST read through her 6 books. It's very difficult b/c obviously she wrote them when she was alive so the language is different than we are used to, but it is necessary. (of course AO does have a modern interp. of this on their site, but I just don't like reading e-texts) If you're just wanting to incorporate some of her principles then AO is very helpful for that as well. Reading the FAQ (as long as it is) on AO is also necessary. I printed it out in order to read it in hand and mark my thoughts down. Understand that AO is composed by hs moms that are following a CM model, and they do this as a non-profit. They are very clear that you cannot do AO without planning out your own language arts and math programs.

 

Also, I think it would be helpful to find moms in your area that are CM users to gain wisdom and advise.

[AngelBee]

Bump :)

[at the beach]

I have looked more closely at the description on how to read by Higher Up and Further In, given previously.

 

I have observed that the author clearly states that this is not CM's method.

 

Which brings me back to my point -- Ambleside does not give clear directions on teaching a child to read, nor on selecting a math curriculum. I've read what they (didn't) have to say on their groups, at one time; what the moderators, etc. said was along the lines of "we should do that one day." I find Ambleside to have many interesting ideas on the humanities, but lacking on these very important points.

 

Under Year 1, there is a comment regarding phonics instruction:

 

"For phonics information, see CM Series Volume 1 Home Education pages:199-222. Charlotte Mason used a combination of sight reading and phonics."

 

CM's writings also address teaching math.

 

AO just becomes a reading list if you don't use the lists/years in conjunction with reading CM's writings and approaching your kid's educations with that in mind. You can't really implement a CM education w/o reading CM's writings. The AO site states this.

[stripe]

Under Year 1, there is a comment regarding phonics instruction:

 

"For phonics information, see CM Series Volume 1 Home Education pages:199-222. Charlotte Mason used a combination of sight reading and phonics."

 

CM's writings also address teaching math.

 

AO just becomes a reading list if you don't use the lists/years in conjunction with reading CM's writings and approaching your kid's educations with that in mind. You can't really implement a CM education w/o reading CM's writings. The AO site states this.

?! I am...touched and amazed that someone resurrected this thread from nearly a year ago to suggest that I haven't read anything CM has written.

 

When I was on an AO list, it is interesting to note that no one there could even articulate their method of teaching reading. They were of the opinion that they really should do that one of these days.

 

I have read CM's writings (!). I hope it's not necessary to read all 6 volumes in order to understand the gist of her method, given that there are books about different age groups and parenting styles, for example.

 

CM gives very little guidance on teaching math, actually, except for the idea that it's a topic to be endured -- and it is the one area in which textbooks are allowed. That is not very specific guidance for today's homeschooling parent. AO is similarly vague.

 

I am not the only one who finds certain aspects of her own educational philosophy to be not well fleshed out -- I have linked to a review of her books written in her time. But it is important to separate CM herself from AO. So I don't think it's entirely helpful for AO to only refer to CM's writings for major topics, given that they seem to find other topics useful to discuss from their own experience.

 

I think learning how to read is sufficiently important that AO should elucidate their suggestions explicitly. So is math, but that's another topic.

[AngelBee]

stripe...Sorry, I bumped the thread, not the person that that quoted you. :grouphug:

[Willow]

Just thinking about this newly resurrected thread.

 

AO is a FREE curriculum, they are busy HS mums who do not gain anything from putting up their ideas and suggestions. This is fine, and I am delighted they take the time to do it, but it also explains why some things are lacking from the site. After all if it is not important to them to put up phonic training...they don't do it. And there are a wealth of phonic instruction books available.

 

Also CM was NOT a mathematician! This is fine, not everybody is, but for those who are there are plenty of wonderful living maths resources out there.

 

Please try not to compare AO with, for example, Sonlight, where there are paid workers to answer your every query. Ao is an amazing free resource, but maybe it is better to think of it as an extended blog rather than a curriculum in the manner of Sonlight, Winterpromise etc

 

Hope this helps.

 

Also, if you want, I can put up how we do AO on a daily basis. We were driven to it by economic reasons, but it has turned out to be yet another of thoses surprising blessings. I am very thankful to have found the site.

 

Willow.

[at the beach]

?! I am...touched and amazed that someone resurrected this thread from nearly a year ago to suggest that I haven't read anything CM has written.

 

When I was on an AO list, it is interesting to note that no one there could even articulate their method of teaching reading. They were of the opinion that they really should do that one of these days.

 

I have read CM's writings (!). I hope it's not necessary to read all 6 volumes in order to understand the gist of her method, given that there are books about different age groups and parenting styles, for example.

 

CM gives very little guidance on teaching math, actually, except for the idea that it's a topic to be endured -- and it is the one area in which textbooks are allowed. That is not very specific guidance for today's homeschooling parent. AO is similarly vague.

 

I am not the only one who finds certain aspects of her own educational philosophy to be not well fleshed out -- I have linked to a review of her books written in her time. But it is important to separate CM herself from AO. So I don't think it's entirely helpful for AO to only refer to CM's writings for major topics, given that they seem to find other topics useful to discuss from their own experience.

 

I think learning how to read is sufficiently important that AO should elucidate their suggestions explicitly. So is math, but that's another topic.

 

Oops, Stripe! I didn't realize this was an old thread. I honestly never even looked at the dates. I am glad it came up, though, because I went back to review some of CM's writings, which is always enlightening. :001_smile: I didn't mean to imply you hadn't read CM. I was just pointing out where specifically learning to read is addressed. There also was a section on teaching math to young kids, giving very specific instruction on how to approach it. I think that was in Volume I as well. I agree with Willow, AO is a fantastic free resource to help those who want to attempt a CM education at home.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Violet

[Guest Cindie2dds]

 

Also, if you want, I can put up how we do AO on a daily basis. We were driven to it by economic reasons, but it has turned out to be yet another of thoses surprising blessings. I am very thankful to have found the site.

 

Willow.

 

Ambleside Online has always intrigued me. I would like for you to share how you "do AO." :D

[Tohru]

AO is a FREE curriculum, they are busy HS mums who do not gain anything from putting up their ideas and suggestions.

 

:iagree:

 

Why so angry because you don't like CM or AO or because it doesn't make sense to you? Let it go...move on. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work. Find something else.

 

Personally, I am in love with Ambleside right now and think that the schedules and booklists are awesome.

[Jayne J]

At the risk of jumping into the middle of a gunfight and getting caught in the crossfire, I will venture to offer my very humble opinion, regarding CM and reading/math.

I think that these are two areas where CM dropped the ball. Her methods just aren't up to snuff in these two areas, and so many of us CM fans are a tad embarrassed by the whole thing. My understanding of CMs reading program is a basic Look-Say style of reading which has generally been discredited. (This is not to say that it doesn't work for some, so please no flames!) And math she just didn't like and didn't address sufficiently.

The folks at AO may or may not feel this way--I am not speaking for them. But most CMers I know do not follow CM in these two areas, especially in the area of reading.

I have simply taught reading using a solid phonics method, and math using a solid current math program. It may not be "authentic", but I am not about to sacrifice my children's reading and math skills on the altar of "Real CM", whatever that may be.:leaving:

And to be honest, I think She Herself would have agreed...

[AngelBee]

And to be honest, I think She Herself would have agreed...

 

This is what I love about Ms Mason. She was a very practical lady. :) I do not feel the least bit bothered that I do not do CM purely.

 

Take her wisdom and apply it however it works for your family. That is what we are doing and it is working great! :D

 

I LOVE AO! I have never really gotten into other CM sites. I keep going back to AO and OFE. We are using them both with WTM.

[stripe]

Why so angry because you don't like CM or AO or because it doesn't make sense to you? Let it go...move on. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work. Find something else.

 

What? I'm not angry. I was tired of repeating myself.

 

I was a part of an Ambleside group and they posted many things were important and should be explained but no one ever did.

 

I don't understand the "how dare you criticize AO!" attitude some people seem to have, as if it's divine revelation or something. This is part of what turns me off from AO -- the reverant, breathless attitude. But I digress.

 

I have nothing to do with Sonlight, but yes it's obvious that AO is a free/volunteer run program; that doesn't mean a glaring hole isn't still a glaring hole and might dissuade someone from depending on it fully.

 

I still hold that explaining how to read is a pretty important topic for elucidation. No matter how many people flame me now or in a year for daring to say so.

 

If AO ever decides to post the secrets of teaching a child how to read, I'd love to know about it.

[Tohru]

I was a part of an Ambleside group and they posted many things were important and should be explained but no one ever did.

 

I don't understand the "how dare you criticize AO!" attitude some people seem to have, as if it's divine revelation or something. This is part of what turns me off from AO -- the reverant, breathless attitude. But I digress.

 

 

 

Really though, it is free and it seems some grace should be considered because of that. It is a labor of love offered by homeschooling moms and criticizing some one's labor of love seems a bit...well, I don't know, perhaps you see it differently because no one actually ever gave you an answer. That must be very frustrating. So....

 

Back to how to teach a child to read the CM way.

Please keep in mind that CM was a teacher and her philosophy was based on students entering her schools. CM advocated that parents teach their children to read at home before starting school. I have glanced through my copy of Home Education, and there does appear to be detailed reading instruction in the book.

 

Here is the original text you can check out. The link should take you right to p. 199. Actual reading instruction begins on p. 201.

 

 

Here is the book in modern English. Scroll down to p. 201 for reading instruction. Page numbers are kind of small, on the left side.

 

 

Here is a summary of the entire book. Section IV Reading p. 199 is way down toward the end.

 

 

Hopefully after checking out any of those links your question will finally be answered.

:)

Edited February 27, 2010 by jadedone80
add link

[lovemykids]

Well, that’s just it, Stripe, teaching reading was rather ambiguous centuries ago. Many young children learned to read on their own or learned from their parents reading to them. Phonics instruction was a debatable method and they didn’t have as much information as we do now. So Miss Mason’s methods were really pretty advanced for her time, she was obviously not a believer in phonics, but yet she had a method that worked for many students; sight reading and word families with dictation and games. It looks to me a lot like what actually worked for my right brained student. (well I used so many methods that it is hard to pinpoint exactly what it is that worked) But certain children do not do well with a phonics only method; they need a whole language approach. Sight words and word families do work for certain children and that is the method CM used.

 

You start with a young child and you teach them the alphabet in a multi-sensory way. Charlotte states that you can start at the age of two. She also says that you do not have to teach your child the alphabet because surely children would learn on their own. If you noticed Charlotte also said that many parents who had children back then that knew how to read were not sure how they learned. That is because they taught themselves to read. And they learned by watching their parents read to them, they simply picked it up naturally!

 

CM was also onto something else that was important, the child had to be interested. A motivated student can do miraculous things. She advised that beginning reading be taught like a game, it should be fun for the student. A parent should note the child’s advancement and go at their pace. When the child becomes bored with the game of playing with word endings, such as “at” etc., then, and only then, they should move on to long vowels.

 

CM very strongly advocated reading with emphasis, both for the parent and the child; this is along the lines of making reading fun and interesting.

 

Another sight word method that she used was also turned into a game. Starting on a special day, such as a birthday for some, this reading lesson was to take place. It was viewed to the child as a privilege. A passage, or a poem, would be copied several times and then made into this game. The child would have cut out pieces of the passage, all into individual words. Then, basically, the teacher would go over each word with them, and the child would quickly pick up on the words. Finally, the child had to arrange them in the proper order from the teacher’s dictation. After many of these lessons, the child learned to recognize the words and he became a reader.

 

This gives you a little more insight into how she taught reading. But, we have come further along now. Even though we may use some of this method, many of us use a blend of these methods without knowing it. Even phonics only methods have sight words! You know? And at some point, all students simply take off in their reading ability, and we are left wondering exactly how it happened.

 

 

HTH.

Edited February 27, 2010 by lovemykids

[Scrub Jay]

Also, if you want, I can put up how we do AO on a daily basis. We were driven to it by economic reasons, but it has turned out to be yet another of thoses surprising blessings. I am very thankful to have found the site.

 

 

I would love to read this as well. And do you have a blog?