CW Homer -- About to jump ship

[Fran51]

I've been struggling through Homer A for several months with a 5th grader. The problem seems to be me. I have a tough time putting it all together, even though I've bought every part of the program to make it easier. I'm getting to the point where I dread pulling it all out and trying to get through another day. I feel like I need to remember a thousand things, am constantly having to re-read parts that I can't retain, and I am getting burned out. It's not the grammar -- it's the writing part. We had a great year with Aesop, which initially hooked me on CW.

 

Have you felt it worth sticking out CW, or have you found another user-friendly program with good results? Does SWB still recommend WS as first choice?

 

I feel like I'm sinking and need a good, solid grammar/writing program for a 5th grader. Thanks for any guidance you can offer.

[Melissa in CA]

:lurk5:

[HollyDay]

I managed to get through A but abandoned B, so my advice might not be what you need :)

 

The best thing I can tell you to do is to outline the days. Take a sheet of notebook paper and label it Day 1. Write down everything you are supposed to do for day 1. Do the same for each of the remaining days. That way, when you open the text, teacher guide, AND your homemade notes, you will know exactly what you are supposed to do. If you cant get it all done for a particular day, then make note of where you stopped and pick up at that point the following day.

 

CW, once you suffer to learn it (:)) is not a terribly difficult program. But, it is intensive and time consuming. I dropped it due to the time consuming part not the understanding part. But, I also took about 3 weeks BEFORE I started teaching it to dive down (not wade through) The Core Book along with the student and Instructor Guide.

 

So, I would say, make your notebook for your level. Dont worry about the next level. Just make your "to do list" for your level for each day and focus on that task. But, do take time separate from dc to learn it by yourself first.

 

Hopefully, others who have continued with the program can offer more

[Heather in VA]

I wish I had great words of wisdom for you. I struggle with Homer too. The only thing that keeps me going is that Maxim and Chreia are fantastic and for the first time I understand how this all works and where it is going. Even still 1/2 the time I want to ditch Homer with my middle dd.

 

Have you thought about taking a break and doing Poetry for a while or waiting until your dc is a bit older and doing the Older Beginners online class?

 

Heather

[Fran51]

I managed to get through A but abandoned B, so my advice might not be what you need :)

 

The best thing I can tell you to do is to outline the days. Take a sheet of notebook paper and label it Day 1. Write down everything you are supposed to do for day 1. Do the same for each of the remaining days. That way, when you open the text, teacher guide, AND your homemade notes, you will know exactly what you are supposed to do. If you cant get it all done for a particular day, then make note of where you stopped and pick up at that point the following day.

 

CW, once you suffer to learn it (:)) is not a terribly difficult program. But, it is intensive and time consuming. I dropped it due to the time consuming part not the understanding part. But, I also took about 3 weeks BEFORE I started teaching it to dive down (not wade through) The Core Book along with the student and Instructor Guide.

 

So, I would say, make your notebook for your level. Dont worry about the next level. Just make your "to do list" for your level for each day and focus on that task. But, do take time separate from dc to learn it by yourself first.

 

Hopefully, others who have continued with the program can offer more

 

I'll try the outlining approach. Appreciate your thoughts. Thanks:)

[Fran51]

I wish I had great words of wisdom for you. I struggle with Homer too. The only thing that keeps me going is that Maxim and Chreia are fantastic and for the first time I understand how this all works and where it is going. Even still 1/2 the time I want to ditch Homer with my middle dd.

 

Have you thought about taking a break and doing Poetry for a while or waiting until your dc is a bit older and doing the Older Beginners online class?

 

Heather

 

Heather, I am to the point of putting dd in a local gifted school next year because I feel writing is so important and I am failing her. For the first time in 5 yrs hs'ing, I feel very inadequate as a teacher for my dd, struggling with Homer in this way. I don't think I could feel much worse about it all...

 

I have not looked into the online class, but expense would be a consideration for us.

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Mama Lynx]

I managed to get through A but abandoned B, so my advice might not be what you need :)

 

The best thing I can tell you to do is to outline the days. Take a sheet of notebook paper and label it Day 1. Write down everything you are supposed to do for day 1. Do the same for each of the remaining days. That way, when you open the text, teacher guide, AND your homemade notes, you will know exactly what you are supposed to do. If you cant get it all done for a particular day, then make note of where you stopped and pick up at that point the following day.

 

CW, once you suffer to learn it (:)) is not a terribly difficult program. But, it is intensive and time consuming. I dropped it due to the time consuming part not the understanding part. But, I also took about 3 weeks BEFORE I started teaching it to dive down (not wade through) The Core Book along with the student and Instructor Guide.

 

So, I would say, make your notebook for your level. Dont worry about the next level. Just make your "to do list" for your level for each day and focus on that task. But, do take time separate from dc to learn it by yourself first.

 

Hopefully, others who have continued with the program can offer more

 

This is excellent advice. Outlining the days and skill levels can bring great clarity.

 

Honestly, it boils down to this: Student should be able to rewrite, well, a longer narrative. Student should use varied and interesting words. Student should be able to rewrite a narrative in medias res, and in flashback. Student should be able to understand how a story is broken into scenes. Student should be able to figure out the author's emphasis. Student should be able to tell what is essential to a story, and what is accidental.

 

Those are my goals. I don't stress about the minutiae.

 

I love the six-sentence shuffle exercises. We always do those. We do the grammar. And other than that, we just learn to write narratives the best we can.

[Heather in VA]

MamaLynx offered great advice. I have narrowed it down similarly but I'm not as good at explaining as she is. I can promise you that you can not mess up teaching writing any worse that schools would, even a gifted school. Trust me. My oldest daughter's friends are mostly in high school, all in gifted, IB, AP programs. I have seen some of the scariest writing ever from these very capable kids. Just last week my dd (8th grade) spent the weekend explaining to her 9th grade (International Baccalauriat and AP classes) best friend how to develop a thesis statement. It was never even discussed in her classes - she was just told she needed one.

 

That said, you do not have to do CW to teach your daughter to write well. I do think it's worth the effort, but if you find something else that works better for you, then by all means - use it.

 

Heather

[Mama Lynx]

I have a dear friend ... college graduate, credentialled teacher ... recently completed a master's degree. I helped her with her papers for her master's. She had no. idea. how to either formulate a thesis statement, or organize a paper.

 

Diogenes: Maxim explicitly teaches how to formulate a thesis statement, btw.

 

No, you certainly don't need CW to teach good writing. I think it's an excellent program, but it also seems to be one that ends up seeming more complex than it has to.

[Staci in MO]

I can promise you that you can not mess up teaching writing any worse that schools would, even a gifted school. Trust me. My oldest daughter's friends are mostly in high school, all in gifted, IB, AP programs. I have seen some of the scariest writing ever from these very capable kids. Just last week my dd (8th grade) spent the weekend explaining to her 9th grade (International Baccalauriat and AP classes) best friend how to develop a thesis statement. It was never even discussed in her classes - she was just told she needed one.

 

:iagree: I was told all through high school that I wrote well, was put into Honors Composition in college, and didn't have a clue about how to develop a thesis statement until I read The Lively Art of Writing while preparing to teach my own dc to write. I do recall one teacher who broke the process down for us, but her directions were so specific to the assignments she gave that I wasn't smart enough to apply them to other assignments.

 

I grew to a point that I felt good writing was some sort of happy accident. On the occasion that I had a clear picture of what I wanted to say, I got lots of positive feedback from my teachers and professors. The times where I couldn't get a clear picture my grades were just...eh.

 

I now can see that the difference was just that I was sometimes able to organize my thoughts intuitively. Other times I could not. There's no telling how much better I could have done if someone would have just taught me how to develop a thesis statement and outline.

 

I'm sure there are schools out there that are doing a bang-up job of teaching writing, but I think most of them are failing at this. My ds has a friend in 6th grade who is having to write a ten-page paper. I'm sure to some that sounds very rigorous and schoolish, but in talking to this boy I can assure you he's not learning anything other than the quickest way to fill up ten pages with writing.

 

FWIW, I'm a CW dropout. It had more to do with my going back to work two days a week from late 2004 through late 2008 than anything else (there was just no time). I'm now very happy doing R&S and outlining, narration, and dictation. But I didn't post this to try to steer you away from CW, but to encourage you not to put your dd in school in 5th grade solely because of writing. School might be the best place for various dc in various circumstances (and it still might be for your dd), but you have plenty of time to fix writing.

 

I highly recommend SWB's DVD "Writing Without Fear." I listen to it every time I start to panic about writing. I think it brings everything into focus and helps me set priorities.

[Fran51]

I admire those on the board with the gift of writing. It has never been a strong point for me.

 

I appreciate all this helpful input and encouragement. I'm determined to try the outlining approach before I close the books for good on Homer.

 

If a program switch is in order, what would be some recommendations (secular, please) for an enthusiastic fifth grader who has a good grasp on writing (but the mother does not)?

 

Thanks so much.

[Amy from WT]

If you DO decide to stick with Homer, I loved the one reply that encouraged you to stick with just a few portions of it. It's very true that not every aspect of the program needs to be done in order for you to be successful with it!

 

I agree - the six-sentence shuffle in there is wonderful. If you can keep that going, make it a priority.

 

As for grammar, if you can find a grammar program that works for you, make that a priority as well. Doesn't necessarily have to be Harveys! (gasp) Then, whatever concepts you are working on in grammar at the time, emphasize them in your sentence shuffle, the model you are studying, and the narrative you are writing.

 

Then look at the skill levels for the writing. Focus on those. You should be all set.

 

A friend of mine gave me some golden advice for learning Homer: Take the book to Staples and ask them to slice the binding off. Re-organize the book by skill level. So all the sections for Skill Level 1 are together, Skill Level 2 is together, and so on. And oh my goodness - all of a sudden I understood the book so much better!

 

Hope this helps. If not, I hope you find something that works for you!

[LanaTron]

Heather, I am to the point of putting dd in a local gifted school next year because I feel writing is so important and I am failing her. For the first time in 5 yrs hs'ing, I feel very inadequate as a teacher for my dd, struggling with Homer in this way. I don't think I could feel much worse about it all...

 

I have not looked into the online class, but expense would be a consideration for us.

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

Have you looked at the Michael Clay Thompson materials? They are supposed to be for gifted students. I haven't used any of them, but they look fun.

[Fran51]

If you DO decide to stick with Homer, I loved the one reply that encouraged you to stick with just a few portions of it. It's very true that not every aspect of the program needs to be done in order for you to be successful with it!

 

I agree - the six-sentence shuffle in there is wonderful. If you can keep that going, make it a priority.

 

As for grammar, if you can find a grammar program that works for you, make that a priority as well. Doesn't necessarily have to be Harveys! (gasp) Then, whatever concepts you are working on in grammar at the time, emphasize them in your sentence shuffle, the model you are studying, and the narrative you are writing.

 

Then look at the skill levels for the writing. Focus on those. You should be all set.

 

A friend of mine gave me some golden advice for learning Homer: Take the book to Staples and ask them to slice the binding off. Re-organize the book by skill level. So all the sections for Skill Level 1 are together, Skill Level 2 is together, and so on. And oh my goodness - all of a sudden I understood the book so much better!

 

Hope this helps. If not, I hope you find something that works for you!

 

Thank you, Amy. Your post is encouraging (esp the reorganizing the book part). I'm going to try to hang in there for a bit longer. I really appreciate hearing from those who have mastered this program. My goal this weekend is to try to relax and spend some time outlining :chillpill:.

[Fran51]

Have you looked at the Michael Clay Thompson materials? They are supposed to be for gifted students. I haven't used any of them, but they look fun.

 

Lana, I've never heard of this program; it looks good. I will investigate it.

 

Thanks!

[HiddenJewel]

A friend of mine gave me some golden advice for learning Homer: Take the book to Staples and ask them to slice the binding off. Re-organize the book by skill level. So all the sections for Skill Level 1 are together, Skill Level 2 is together, and so on. And oh my goodness - all of a sudden I understood the book so much better!

 

How did you make this work when there are no page breaks between skill levels? How are you supposed to separate skill level one from two when they are on the same page?

[HiddenJewel]

I definitely would also suggest you outline each day and skill level. I have a document where I outlined the daily routines by skill level. It isn't perfect but it might help. PM me with your email is you would like it.

 

Also, use your student workbook as your focus and the core as your reference.

[MicheleinMN]

How did you make this work when there are no page breaks between skill levels? How are you supposed to separate skill level one from two when they are on the same page?

 

 

I don't know how Amy did it, but I copied the page that I needed for each section to be separate.

 

HTH

[HiddenJewel]

I don't know how Amy did it, but I copied the page that I needed for each section to be separate.

 

HTH

 

Thanks.

[HiddenJewel]

My dd13 definitely leans in the direction of writing talent. She has been using the CW Older Beginner workbook this year and it has really helped her writing. It does seem more complicated than it really is, but it gives tools that I have not seen taught in other writing programs.

 

I also love the six sentence shuffle. If we didn't even use the writing projects but did Days 2-4, I would feel the program was worth it.

[Amy from WT]

How did you make this work when there are no page breaks between skill levels? How are you supposed to separate skill level one from two when they are on the same page?

 

Yup - just as Michele suggested, I made an extra copy of the page when the skill levels were broken up on the same page. Get a BIG three-ring binder! It REALLY does help, though.

[Mamagistra]

This is excellent advice. Outlining the days and skill levels can bring great clarity.

 

Honestly, it boils down to this: Student should be able to rewrite, well, a longer narrative. Student should use varied and interesting words. Student should be able to rewrite a narrative in medias res, and in flashback. Student should be able to understand how a story is broken into scenes. Student should be able to figure out the author's emphasis. Student should be able to tell what is essential to a story, and what is accidental.

 

Those are my goals. I don't stress about the minutiae.

 

I love the six-sentence shuffle exercises. We always do those. We do the grammar. And other than that, we just learn to write narratives the best we can.

 

:iagree: Mama Lynx is my Homer guru, and her advice has saved me from booting the core book into the trash many a time. :D

[Fran51]

I have had that temptation myself (or to gladly donate it, lol). There are some ideas and suggestions here that I am certainly going to try. I've given myself a mental block and I'm hoping to chip away at it...

[Peela]

I'm a CW drop out too but I still think its an excellent program. I just burned out on the amount it needed from me, especially with 2 kids on different levels. My older child got halfway through Homer B.

I think it is unecessarily complicated, but still a good program.

I have used various programs since the but the best thing for my more competent writer was using home2teach.com for her- an online writing program. She got excellent feedback and she needed to get feeback from someone other than me. I intend to use it more, and in the meanwhile she is doing a TAFE (I think thats the equivalent of community college) course which is more mainstream and asks different things from her. But I feel that exposure to different types of writing is good for her anyway. For my younger, age 13 but with LDs and writing being his weakest area, he is using IEW's Medieval Writing. The structure of IEW seems to be good for him, without the dress-ups, although I don't feel to invest in the whole program. I also use freewrites for him and outlining for both.

I am thinking of using IEW's progym program for highschool for my older (she is almost 15) in the next year or so.

I don't feel the time we spent with CW was wasted at all- it was a good couple of years and they both learned a lot, as did I- but it just became too tedious.

[homeschoolchic]

:lurk5:....I just bought this so I was glad to read real life comments:)

[Fran51]

Thanks, Peela -- that was helpful.

 

Homeschoolchic, many people seem to do well with Homer. I'm going to try following the ideas of those more experienced here and see what happens. I wish things had gone smoother with us.

[siloam]

A friend of mine gave me some golden advice for learning Homer: Take the book to Staples and ask them to slice the binding off. Re-organize the book by skill level. So all the sections for Skill Level 1 are together, Skill Level 2 is together, and so on. And oh my goodness - all of a sudden I understood the book so much better!

 

 

 

Did anyone do this with their other CW books? Makes a lot more sense to me as I look at the Poetry Core I need to dive into soon.

 

Heather

[Julie in GA]

Very strong agreement here to Mama Lynx's post. Me too, me too!

[Kathie in VA]

I have one ds in Aesop and two dc in Older Beginners at this point. I let the workbooks lead our lessons. I have the kids open their workbooks and we review any past work they did. Then we read the workbook to see what lesson is next. It tells me where to read from the core book. So I open the core book and read aloud to them. Sometimes I use a whiteboard, sometimes some scrap paper, many times we just look at the core together. Then we discuss the lesson to see if we all 'get it'. Next we go back to the workbooks to see what the assignment is for them to do. Sometimes we'll do it all together, sometimes we'll just start it together, and then sometimes I'll send them off to get it done... depends on how well they understand the work. I might need to keep the answer key handy to make sure I'm leading them right. If we have additional questions, I turn to the CW message board to see if our question has already been asked. If not I'll post and we tend to get an answer within a day. My kids get a kick out of asking a 'difficult' question. So for me the work might get difficult but the pattern to using CW is fairly easy.

 

Each day to CW is a different focus. Within each days focus the skills are broken down into levels. The workbooks first take you to the correct days' focus and then to the skill level for the current assignment.

 

I see why some folks like the idea of re-organizing the core by level, but that wouldn't work for me. My kids tend to move through the skills at different rates. ie. they may move up to level 5 for day 1 work but still be on level 3 for day 2 work. Then again by using the workbooks, the skill levels are kinda planned out so this might work out anyway.

 

hope this helps some,

Kathie

[Fran51]

I have one ds in Aesop and two dc in Older Beginners at this point. I let the workbooks lead our lessons. I have the kids open their workbooks and we review any past work they did. Then we read the workbook to see what lesson is next. It tells me where to read from the core book. So I open the core book and read aloud to them. Sometimes I use a whiteboard, sometimes some scrap paper, many times we just look at the core together. Then we discuss the lesson to see if we all 'get it'. Next we go back to the workbooks to see what the assignment is for them to do. Sometimes we'll do it all together, sometimes we'll just start it together, and then sometimes I'll send them off to get it done... depends on how well they understand the work. I might need to keep the answer key handy to make sure I'm leading them right. If we have additional questions, I turn to the CW message board to see if our question has already been asked. If not I'll post and we tend to get an answer within a day. My kids get a kick out of asking a 'difficult' question. So for me the work might get difficult but the pattern to using CW is fairly easy.

 

Each day to CW is a different focus. Within each days focus the skills are broken down into levels. The workbooks first take you to the correct days' focus and then to the skill level for the current assignment.

 

I see why some folks like the idea of re-organizing the core by level, but that wouldn't work for me. My kids tend to move through the skills at different rates. ie. they may move up to level 5 for day 1 work but still be on level 3 for day 2 work. Then again by using the workbooks, the skill levels are kinda planned out so this might work out anyway.

 

hope this helps some,

Kathie

 

Kathie, it helps a lot:) -- thank you. Before I saw your post, I sat with dd this a.m. and read through the core book pertinent levels with her, doing much what you described. At times we were both befuddled, but didn't get too excited about it. I've made a tentative plan to try to stick it out for the summer; if it's still making me break out in a sweat, we'll try something different. Appreciate your input.

[sted]

I haven't read any other replies on this thread but your truggle with Homer could have equally desribed me. I had to do a double take and make sure it wasn't me writing it because I too have a fifth grader. The grammar was a bit challenging for me and I'm just finding the models so "classical". It seemd okay for Aesop because the stories were shorter but these models did not inspire my daughter in the same way. I felt overwhelmed too and have spent the last two months researching other curricula. I hate to "jump ship" too because I'm a firm believer in sticking with something but my daughter, who used to love writing, has been dreading it, along with me! I will read and find out what others suggest.

 

Shannon

[HiddenJewel]

I haven't read any other replies on this thread but your truggle with Homer could have equally desribed me. I had to do a double take and make sure it wasn't me writing it because I too have a fifth grader. The grammar was a bit challenging for me and I'm just finding the models so "classical". It seemd okay for Aesop because the stories were shorter but these models did not inspire my daughter in the same way. I felt overwhelmed too and have spent the last two months researching other curricula. I hate to "jump ship" too because I'm a firm believer in sticking with something but my daughter, who used to love writing, has been dreading it, along with me! I will read and find out what others suggest.

 

Shannon

 

If you dread it, your student most likely will take that on. But it does take great techniques for writing. My dd13 loves to write and I have seen a real maturity in her writing since a couple years ago. So if you can figure out a way to understand it, your dd will benefit. I feel that even if you only do days 2-4 and didn't do the writing projects, the program is worth it. I know I had to do a few charts before the big picture really clicked for me. I am happy to share them with anyone who it might help.

[Fran51]

A bit OT, but may I ask...

 

Each year we do standardized testing. Now that writing will be a component of the test for dd (5th gr & up), how will she handle expository writing? Should I work with her on this separately since Homer does not address it (at least to the point where we are in book A, about a third of the way through)?:confused:

[siloam]

A bit OT, but may I ask...

 

Each year we do standardized testing. Now that writing will be a component of the test for dd (5th gr & up), how will she handle expository writing? Should I work with her on this separately since Homer does not address it (at least to the point where we are in book A, about a third of the way through)?:confused:

 

My oldest is 5th and is required to take the CAT 5. She just started Homer A, so I am in the same boat. Given they break scores down by area I am not worried about it. Yes I would prefer she were prepared and got a good score, but it is a less then a month off, so it is not happening. :D I am not required to test again till 8th grade, and by that time I know she will be prepared so I am ok with her not doing well this time.

 

Heather

 

[Fran51]

My oldest is 5th and is required to take the CAT 5. She just started Homer A, so I am in the same boat. Given they break scores down by area I am not worried about it. Yes I would prefer she were prepared and got a good score, but it is a less then a month off, so it is not happening. :D I am not required to test again till 8th grade, and by that time I know she will be prepared so I am ok with her not doing well this time.

 

Heather

 

 

I believe dd will have her next testing in Oct or Nov '09, so maybe I should spend a little time this summer explaining the basic concepts of expository writing and having her practice a bit. Thanks, Heather.

[PeterPan]

I'm doing Paragraph Writing Made Easy with my dd this summer. It hits all the basics of paragraphing, and then it's just a little leap if she needs to do something longer. Search the forums here and you can see more about it.

[Fran51]

I'm doing Paragraph Writing Made Easy with my dd this summer. It hits all the basics of paragraphing, and then it's just a little leap if she needs to do something longer. Search the forums here and you can see more about it.

 

Sounds good -- thanks!:)

[Fran51]

Just ordered Paragraph Writing Made Easy for $2.50 from Half.com. Thanks so much for mentioning this one...

[PeterPan]

Well good! :)