Dooley Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I heard him outside the door, thought someone was trying to blow up our excercise ball with that pump thingy. It was him, with a terrified look, crying wildly, unable to breathe, ran away from me, wouldnt let me touch him...I sent my husband in to calm him. DS and I are very close. He is not speaking to me this morning. I want to tell him to 1. Keep your door closed at night, 2. Moms and Dads do these things you know, 3. At least we werent fighting! and, 4. Keep that door closed!! I am embarrassed, hurting for him (no child should have to hear THAT, I imagine he IS traumatised) and dont know how to help him be ok again. Ideas? :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dooley Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 ...Ok, now that no one is responding, I want to slink away into a dark hole with embarrassment. :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Wow. 134 people read your post but had nothing to say! I have never been in this situation as an adult, but I have as a child. Though I did not get upset in the same way that your son did. I'm really sorry this happened. Poor guy. It sounds like you handled it really well. I hope he starts talking to you soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KristenS Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I would've died of embarrassment ... as either parent or child. :) Hugs to your son. Panic attacks are no fun at all. Cut him a little slack this morning ... depending on how long it went on, panic attacks can be very physically exhausting. He may need more rest or cuddles or alone time or something. As for the emotional aspect ... no advice there. But hugs to you and your dh too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I know this has come up before. I wish I knew how to search the thread. I know it involved a hysterical child. Perhaps someone else will pipe up. I think it's probably time to sit down and gently tell ds that a part of being married is enjoying each other in a physical way. Sometimes there are noises associated with it. I would apologize for making him uncomfortable and ask that he respect your privacy by not hanging around your closed bedroom door. I would then invest in a radio/cd player for your bedroom to compensate for any noises.:001_smile: I would think it is time to address the facts of life with this child if you haven't already. Both my boys understand that parents require "grown up time" and that they are not to disturb us. We hug and kiss in front of them, so they know being physical is a part of being married. I'm sure they have ideas about what is going on, but like most kids they probably are grossed out and would rather not think about it. KWIM? Hope this helps. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Don't be embarrassed! I'm not sure what you should do but my instinct would be to make sure you, your DH and him sit down for a talk soon. Sure it was a shock but he has no reason to stop speaking to you for what's normal, loving adult behaviour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbygirl Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 ...Ok, now that no one is responding, I want to slink away into a dark hole with embarrassment. :001_huh: Oh please don't feel embarrassed. It's natural. You're married. You have kids in the same house. It's bound to happen. There's no shame in having a healthy ahem "tea making" life with your hubby. ;) I read your post and I didn't respond right away because I honestly didn't know what advice to give you other than what you've already done. I still don't know. lol Maybe just give your son some space until he calms down a bit? I mean maybe just say something along the lines of, "I realize you're upset and don't want to talk to me right now, but I want you to know that I love you and I will give you your space, but you can come talk to me whenever you are ready and I will be here, but we need to talk about this." And then just wait until he's ready. And then you may as well explain the birds and bees to him when you guys do talk, or maybe even have your husband talk to him if it embarrasses him. I don't know what else to say other than that. Sorry to be so useless to you. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Does he know the facts of sex and marital relations? I'd tell him him must listen and tell him the truth. "Son, what you heard was Mom and Dad making love. Since you didn't know what that was was happening, the sounds must have been scary. You don't have to worry, we were and are just fine." If it were my children, I'd have some pretty firm words about "moving on" and not hyperfocusing on the issue or adding drama to it. The extreme reaction on his part and not talking to you has me a bit :confused:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacie Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Oh, don't slink away! It's not something a lot of people have a lot of experience with, I guess. I have no BTDT advice, but if I were in your shoes I would tell him to get over it. In our home eavesdropping is punishable, period. It seems he's jealous of your husband and the time you and dh spend together, since you mentioned you and he were close. An 11 year old is more than old enough to understand mom and dad need special time together and should not be interrupted unless emergency. There's no reason to apologize or act like its your fault. It's a natural thing between a husband and wife, and should be respected. The more you act like his behavior is a big deal, the more uncomfortable everyone becomes. And the more power you give him to control the relationship between you and his dad. Tell him if your door is closed, he should knock, not stand there and eavesdrop. If there's an emergency he should call out to you. Smile, hug him, and give him time to get over it. Of course if things were getting so loud and rowdy that the neighbors were on the way over next, you may wish to tone it down a little until the kids are out of the house! ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom2GirlsTX Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Don't die of embarassement, I think that people aren't commenting because they don't know what to say. However, I know this board, and lots of the people (like myself) always have something to say :D Life happens, and no matter how scared he was, you need to reassure yourself first and remember you did nothing wrong. Mom, you did nothing wrong, you were in your bedroom with your husband, with the door closed! I have an 11 year old myself, who is easily traumatized and has anxiety issues. She does panic when she figures out our bedroom door is locked. I have had to explain to her that Moms and Dads need alone time, that parents need special time together, it is okay. I think you or maybe dh, need to sit down and have a talk with ds about how sex within marriage is a wonderful thing, and you are very sorry he heard something and panicked, but that he needs to understand that it was that great love you have for each other that helped create him. I remember hearing my parents when I was 12, I was embarrased but my parents were not the type to talk to me about anything. I think having a communication so he understands that while this was embarrasing to him, it was not something to be ashamed of, love within marriage is a good thing. Hang in there mom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 It hasn't happened to us yet but I know my ds would react the same way. He would be mortified (and yes, he does know about sex). Yes, it is natural but it is still not something most kids want to think about their parents doing. My husband heard his parents often when he was growing up (apparently they were fairly loud) and he still doesn't like to think or talk about it. At 11yo you may know what sex is but it doesn't mean you are comfortable with it yet (especially not the idea of your parents doing it or the noises associated to it). My only advice is try to be quieter. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I can't keep everyone's religious and political profiles straight around here, so you may want to disregard, but the book It's Perfectly Normal is a hit around here. We're pretty liberal, so it would not work for those who aren't, but it's very good. http://www.amazon.com/Its-Perfectly-Normal-Changing-Growing/dp/0763624330/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241187174&sr=8-1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st_claire Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Since you called it "making tea" (never heard that euphemism before), I assume it isn't something you talk about. Maybe he thinks it's bad or that one of you was being hurt. I would explain that sex is something adults do for fun, and its no big deal at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I can't keep everyone's religious and political profiles straight around here, so you may want to disregard, but the book It's Perfectly Normal is a hit around here. We're pretty liberal, so it would not work for those who aren't, but it's very good. http://www.amazon.com/Its-Perfectly-Normal-Changing-Growing/dp/0763624330/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241187174&sr=8-1 :iagree: I let my oldest read this on his own. We are open here, but he is easily embarrassed, so I didn't go over it with him. I just wait for opportunities to discuss these topics with him as they come up and give him my spin on them. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Jenny Flint Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I would just echo what everyone else has said about emphasizing to your son that normal and healthy marriages include sexual pleasure. If it were me, I would also reiterate the conversation about sexuality in general, briefly, or if that conversation has not happened yet, make that a priority for another conversation in the near future. Then, like Joanne, I would tell my kids to get over it. As an aside, I will share that since my mother moved in with us, dh and I share the downstairs (basement) "bedroom" which has no door and is open on one whole side. When that arrangement started, we had a straight talk with the kids about privacy and that they would have to knock at the top of the stairs and call to us after a certain time at night and before a certain time in the morning unless they wanted a potentially big surprise. We haven't had any problems. Finally, without knowing how loud you were, I would not encourage you to be quieter. ;) Only you can know if you need to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peela Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I am not sure but maybe bring some gentle humour into the situation? Every now and then my husband says something to our teenagers like, you know, I do find your mother attractive and even.....and about then they start going La La La with their fingers in their ears. But we do all have a good laugh. I would suggest not taking it too seriously- after all, it's just life, it's normal. Of course you need to be sensitive to his feelings, but not taking them too seriously might help him put it into perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialmama Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 My dc would respond the same way. I think my dd would think we were hurt or something bad was happening. Kids can have these amazing imaginations at night, where they may think someone broke into the house and is hurting their parents.... perhaps he was just scared not knowing what was happening and freaking out at all the ideas that were popping in his head. If he does know about making tea, I understand how that would bother him, too. I heard my parents in my teen years and it still creeps me out, blech! :ack2: I would personally give him space, time to process things, time to think. I like what a previous poster suggested saying, something along the lines of "we will talk about this," as that will help prepare him for a talk this evening. :grouphug: hugs to you mama! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peela Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Since you called it "making tea" (never heard that euphemism before), I assume it isn't something you talk about. Maybe he thinks it's bad or that one of you was being hurt. I would explain that sex is something adults do for fun, and its no big deal at all. Lol, just so you know, "making tea" was a euphamism that came up on the boards with a very hilarious nad long thread a few months back, so its kind of an in joke on the boards that comes up every now and then. And, its a pretty good way to talk about it without having to worry about kids looking over your shoulder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Does he have an anxiety order or anything? If he's just a regular kid feeling embarrassed, I would let him know that while we don't have to talk about the incident, he doesn't have the choice of not talking to his his mother. Period. We can choose to talk or not to talk about sex, but we can't choose not to answer a question or function as a family. And I would do some combo of giving it time to blow over, injecting some humor, and being open to a little chat if he wants one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHGrandma Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Lol, just so you know, "making tea" was a euphamism that came up on the boards with a very hilarious nad long thread a few months back, so its kind of an in joke on the boards that comes up every now and then. And, its a pretty good way to talk about it without having to worry about kids looking over your shoulder. Haha, it also helps avoid spammers searching for that 3 letter that starts with 's', has an 'x' and the end, and quite often has an '*' in the middle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherryTX Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 At least he didn't walk in on you! All I can say is that a good luck is the key to marriage haha. Seriously though - don't be embarrassed. He will get over it. We all think we "scar our kids for life" at one point or another. And maybe he will listen and not go slinking about outside your room at night any more haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tricia Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Definitely time to share the mom and dad story with him. Sounds like you two are real close so in time he'll warm up and come around and will be ready to listen. On the other hand though he may NOT be ready to listen as it may be too much yet. In which case just give it more time. Does he SEE you and hubby giving lovies to each other normally? Like kisses, hugs, winks, etc. If so, I wouldn't think his shock would last very long, especially if you have had a chance to talk to him about it.:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muffinmom Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Is there a chance he thought you and dh were hurting each other? I'm sure to the uninitiated, listening to tea making might sound frightening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Yep, depending on exactly what the sounds were at the moment, I am sure it scared him to death. But I do think his reaction was a bit odd. Was dad the one making noise at the time. Did he think you were hurting his dad? It is odd that he let dad talk to him but won't talk to you. My ds9 knows about sex and how it is done. When I tell him that dh and I are going to take a "nap" in the middle of the day, he does all he can to go in his room, turn up the music, and play with his little brother. LOL It helps when they understand and actually WANT to not go near the door. How are things going now? Update when you can and let us know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dooley Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 Whew...thanks ladies. He does know about tea making and is a wonderful, mature kid. I am thankful I never heard MY folks make tea. Ewww. I too, dont really understand the reaction (he heard us once before, and yes, we do try to be quiet - but he did not react this way). He is pretty sensitive and really loves mom. I talked to him - said all the things you all pretty much said, he still doesnt want to hug me, he is just being very quiet now. I was thinking he is almost acting like a spurned boyfriend, in a way. He is not as close to dh as he is to me. I guess I would just covet your prayers at this point, that he could erase, erase, erase and regain his composure. Thank you!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Since you called it "making tea" (never heard that euphemism before), I assume it isn't something you talk about. Maybe he thinks it's bad or that one of you was being hurt. I would explain that sex is something adults do for fun, and its no big deal at all. Making tea is just a WTM board euphemism so use of it here probably doesn't reflect her personal feelings on the matter. Took me a while to understand that no, people here were not huge earl grey or orange pekoe fans. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I think it might be helpful to separate the two questions: 1) What do you do about a kid who has been traumatized by something? 2) What do you do if your kid hears/sees sex between parents? I think a lot of posters have answered #2. I think that #1 makes the situation different, because your ds was more than embarrassed--he was in your words, traumatized. When someone has had an emotional reaction that severe, no matter to what--I think it's important to hear how it affected him (ie listen, but not in order to explain anything. Allow him to tell what he was feeling and what he was thinking). Writing is very good for someone after a traumatizing event. He may be willing to put his feelings on paper and not in words. It may well have been that he imagined some kind of injury going on, but just telling him it wasn't happening doesn't really take care of what he experienced, KWIM? So I would first of all honor his feelings by taking them seriously, and I might even consider consulting with someone in children's mental health to guide you on dealing with the trauma. Cause what you don't want is a boy that associates married sex with overwhelming and negative feelings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich with Kids Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 (edited) Sorry. Edited May 1, 2009 by Rich with Kids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 If it were my children, I'd have some pretty firm words about "moving on" and not hyperfocusing on the issue or adding drama to it. The extreme reaction on his part and not talking to you has me a bit :confused:. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brindee Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Yeah, is he traumatized because of the tea making, or because he thought you were being hurt or were mad/angry at each other? Can he tell you what caused him to react that way? It may possibly have nothing to do with tea making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I was thinking he is almost acting like a spurned boyfriend, in a way. He is not as close to dh as he is to me. Okay, that has me thinking of old Freud and his Oedipus complex theories...but your ds is a bit old for that. Honestly, his reaction and the oddity of it would bother me more than what he heard or saw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohdanigirl Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I just saw this post, otherwise I would have answered you long before. Ok I know I am going to turn red, but I'll share my experience with you. ds10 heard us as well and didn't freak out too much. I was pretty embarrassed and told him we were moving furniture. But he has told us that he knows we make love. I think the reason that his response was so mild is because my husband and I are always very affectionate with each other and our kids. Dh often comes in the romm just to give me a kiss, hug me from behind, or give me a pat on the bottom as he walks by. The children have grown up seeing this and only giggle when they see us kiss on the lips for more than a peck. Don't get me wrong, we don't make out in front of them, but they have always seen us do these things. Also, we haven't had the real birds and the bees talk (although I know it's on the way), but we have told them that mommys and daddys marry each other because they love each other and that it is normal for mommys and daddys to kiss and hug. When they giggle about us kissing dh always asks if they would prefer we fought (in a nice way) and they always say no. They have also pointed out that their friends parents never even hold hands or hug when the dad comes home from work. So I think in a way, without even knowing it, we sort of prepared ds for this. I would also like to add that your ds may be more sensitive and need time to get through it. I believe someone asked if this was a closed subject in your home. You may want to consider that, and although you don't need to get graphic there may be ways you can get your ds used to the idea that you and your dh are close, a book is a great idea. Help him see that it's a good thing that his parents still love each other. Turn it in to a learning exp. and trust me, he will be ok. If he still isn't talking to you, just give him time. I think now is a good time for he and dad to go have a father son day and just talk. Let ds ask questions and dh can calm his fears. Remember he has alway seen you as mommy. The funny thing is that children never seem to make the connection that mommy is a woman as well. Danielle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ria Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 TMI ALERT [/size][/font] Are you sure you really want that posted on the internet? Ria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Are you sure you really want that posted on the internet? Ria Oh well...at least I got to read it first this time! Usually I am just left confused with deleted posts...:lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich with Kids Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Oh well...at least I got to read it first this time! Usually I am just left confused with deleted posts...:lol: Sometimes I post before I think. :blushing: I never mean to offend... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ria Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Oh well...at least I got to read it first this time! Usually I am just left confused with deleted posts...:lol: Oh. No worries, Rich with Kids. Discretion is probably a better avenue on the 'net, eh? Ria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Sometimes I post before I think. :blushing: I never mean to offend... You didn't offend me. I was JEALOUS (well, not of the child and the lack of scissors...you get my point). :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Okay, that has me thinking of old Freud and his Oedipus complex theories...but your ds is a bit old for that. Honestly, his reaction and the oddity of it would bother me more than what he heard or saw. Yes. I think the repeated "close to Mom" and '"closer to Mom than Dad" element to be of concern when you consider he's not talking to Mom after the incident. It's age appropriate for much younger kids to feel exclusionary about parents. But a tween? I'd be inclined to consider if I needed to evaluate if the maternal/son closeness is obscuring the son's perception of his role in the family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohdanigirl Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Sometimes I post before I think. :blushing: I never mean to offend... No worries. Glad to hear your dh is still so in love with you.:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 You didn't offend me. I was JEALOUS (well, not of the child and the lack of scissors...you get my point). :lol: Gee, i missed something good? LOL! To the OP - hope it all sorts itself out. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver0f10 Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Gee, i missed something good? LOL! I was thinking the same thing :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ria Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Yes. I think the repeated "close to Mom" and '"closer to Mom than Dad" element to be of concern when you consider he's not talking to Mom after the incident. It's age appropriate for much younger kids to feel exclusionary about parents. But a tween? I'd be inclined to consider if I needed to evaluate if the maternal/son closeness is obscuring the son's perception of his role in the family. As usual, Joanne has offered a valuable insight. I had similar concerns when I read about the child's reaction. It's not age-appropriate, and certainly not if he already knew about "tea" and could put it in perspective (ie, married people do this). Ria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich with Kids Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Gee, i missed something good? LOL! To the OP - hope it all sorts itself out. :grouphug: I was thinking the same thing :lol: Well, those of you that know me know that I tend to "go there" without any hesitation. And "go there" I did. Thank God for Ria. Who wants my social security number? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Well, those of you that know me know that I tend to "go there" without any hesitation. And "go there" I did. Thank God for Ria. Who wants my social security number? Hmmm tempting, but i'd rather have gotten to read the story! LOL!!! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Hmmm tempting, but i'd rather have gotten to read the story! LOL!!! :lol: Me too, I go upstairs to finish shampooing my carpet and I miss all the good stuff.... sheesh.... K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanne in ABQ Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Coming in late to add another dimension, based on my experience. Our 11yods heard us making tea several months ago. He was mildly upset by the image in his mind of us "doing it", but when I talked to him about it, it came out that he was more upset at the thought that I might get pregnant. He really doesn't want to share me with yet another younger sibling. He isn't jealous of his dad, but he is still jealous of his 3yo little sister. Anyway, once I assured him that we are taking measures to prevent pregnancy, he was okay. I just thought I'd throw that into the mix. Your ds's reaction may have its roots in something very different from the obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Well, those of you that know me know that I tend to "go there" without any hesitation. And "go there" I did. Thank God for Ria. Who wants my social security number? I read it. And, may I say that while we are "hippie nudists" (sometimes at least), you, my dear, take the freaky cake for today. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I read it. And, may I say that while we are "hippie nudists" (sometimes at least), you, my dear, take the freaky cake for today. :lol: Oh my. If Audrey honors you with a "freaky cake" - it must have been a VERY interesting story...;) Darn.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 It was good, good stuff. We should all only wish to be so uninhibited in the bedroom. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova mama Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 not something a lot of people have a lot of experience with, I guess. Or maybe experience (like me!) but no advice! I hope it all works out!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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