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Laura K (NC)

Smaller and purer, or bigger and broader: where are the classical homeschoolers?

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Now I come to the boards and the rigorous homeschoolers are either quieter or seem to be a minority. If a kid doesn't like math, then many simply suggest we switch to an easier program. If a kid doesn't like reading, pop books are okay... the classics are not for everybody, and don't bother reading them yourself because it's just not necessary. History phobia? Pick a prepackaged curriculum that doesn't demand much. We are granted permission not to teach basic science requirements if we know(?) our children won't "need" them, granted permission to do bare minimum on extracurriculars and count them as full credits, and granted permission to take the day or week or even month off if we're having a bad time of it. After all, we've heard that public schoolers aren't covering all that much, so why try harder?

 

It is my experience that we don't really need much encouragement to do less than is required for a well-educated, (and even more, a well-trained) student. What I really need is a kick in the pants to get off the computer and sit down with my sons and teach them -- and myself -- to know, or at least appreciate, as much about history, and math, and science, and literature (and logic, and rhetoric, and the arts) as possible, and not to scrape by on minimum requirements for any test or college requirement, and to overcome any phobia I or my kids have of any subject by treating the fear as a simple misunderstanding that can be overcome.

 

**************************

 

I'm trying my best, and I do think the classical method is superior. I sometimes find myself wishing there was a support forum for classical homeschoolers who follow The Well-Trained Mind, at least in part. I don't want excellence measured in modern public school terms. I want to be surprised at how much my kids and I can learn together. I need a push to go farther than the minimum.

 

 

 

and no, I'm not offended by what you've said and the topic you've brought up.

 

For our family, I would say that I have adapted methods from TWTM as much as possible. We did do 5 years of Latin; two years with Matin Latin I & II, and three years covering Henle I (mostly due to following Memoria Press's guide for the first year; while excellent, a bit too slow for our purposes). Beyond that, I simply couldn't force my older two to tackle any more Latin without strife in our household. My youngest is working her way through LC II; my oldest daughter has done Introductory Logic and Traditional Logic I and II; my middle daughter has done TL I and is working on TL II. We do what I would consider a rigorous math---Chalkdust for the oldest, Lial's for the middle daughter, and my youngest is naturally quite adept at math. We do Apologia Science; the tests are not adapted at all, and my oldest works through every chemistry problem in the book. We are doing most of the Primary Readings from Omnibus II, to a much greater degree than last year, and the kids are more engaged. I believe we are working our girls to as high of a standard as possible.

 

However, this summer I had a "turning point" of sorts in my approach with my children. I listened to Douglas Wilson's talk from the 2007 ACCS Conference last summer in Atlanta, entitled, "Lowering Standards While Submitting to Christ's Authority." The main thrust of the message was in maintaining high standards in education while not losing the children you're trying to teach. He used an analogy that, ultimately, we all want to give our children a million dollars (i.e., an excellent classical education), but if they end up hating it and us for it, we've given them nothing. You'd have to listen to the entire talk to catch all his points, and there's a false dichotomy which he outlines in the talk. Another main point he made was in communicating the enthusiasm of subjects and defending their importance with our children.

 

I guess what I learned from that message, which I listened to repeatedly, sometimes with tears, is that I really do want to do so much more with them, but I can't lead or push my "sheep" beyond what they're capable of retaining at the moment. My girls do rigorous work; their test scores show that. But, I have to keep my eyes always on them and what they're capable of doing, and lead them with love (not to imply that others who do more are not doing that! Of course not!). So---it became apparent to me that I could not get them to move further on in Latin beyond Henle I without losing their hearts. They were mentally and emotionally finished with the subject. So, I felt like it was time to move on and allow them to do a modern foreign language, which we'll tackle next year, having just finished Henle I this year.

 

I truly, truly admire so many of you that do even more with your children, and I can sense the enthusiasm and drive that your children possess while they are doing their work. Some of your children are doing advanced Latin that I could only dream about; some of your children are doing multiple online courses in extremely difficult subjects. I wish I could meet all of you, sit in on your homeschool for a day or a week and watch you, like a little mouse in the corner, as you interact with your children, so I could catch your secret! But, I had to back off from a few things, namely pursuing higher levels of Latin with my children, because it seemed like they were losing their love and interest in what they were learning. I want to do so much more, but I don't want to lose their hearts in the process. And, I don't mean to imply in any way that those of you who are doing so much more as losing your children's hearts---in fact, just the opposite: so many of you are able to do so much more and your children are absolutely thriving and loving what they're doing! But for our family, I felt that it was necessary to back off a little from what I ultimately wanted to do.

 

I hope my post doesn't come across as a criticism of anyone! This is just our perspective, and how we've adapted TWTM to our family.

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I think this is an excellent discussion, Laura. For our family, personally, we aren't strict followers of the classical method. However, we are very strict followers of pushing our children academically to their maximum potential. The focus is not necessarily on the liberal arts, but may be highly intensive in math and science (which isn't quite so "classical.")

 

From our experience and POV, educational success is what leads to the capabilities to achieve future academic goals. Our oldest son is majoring in chemical engineering. We could have focused more on the liberal arts (Latin, Greek, ancients) when he was in high school, but opted for him to be able to dual enroll and take the science/math route. I'm not sure that was the wrong decision for him. It was definitely hard work and developed excellent work ethic, exposed him to what he needed to do in order to achieve his dream.

 

I am also a focuser on the smaller and purer. We can't study everything. We go narrower and deeper. However, in today's technological world, we have made educational room for a slightly different picture (like Janice's list in her post)

 

I've enjoyed the discussion. With our 3rd child approaching high school next yr, I am still trying to evaluate our route with her. She has no clear cut dreams or focus, so a more traditionally classical approach may be the one we take. Either way, pushing her to her maximum potential is our ultimate goal no matter which subjects we end up selecting to study.

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This is what I learned from TWTM, too. That is my safeguard against failure. It is the reason TWTM feels like a more workable, more sure version of unschooling to me. It is what allows me to morph "school" into "education" and flex things to the max. No matter how much I've flexed them, I try really hard to make sure we cover that list of skills, and usually, I find that SWB's recommendations are the most efficient way of doing that, provided I make allowences for my older child's slower brain wiring and both children's capacity to become deeply depressed by depressing literature and historical events. This is probably because SWB's recommendations are a good cultural match for my own family.

-Nan

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I'm very odd, too. I feel supported, though, in my oddness, by some of my particular friends here. I know they are doing things differently than I am and have different goals, but some of the people here are fantastic at offering me kind advice on how to do what *I* want to do, warning me about rocks they think I might be headed for, and helping me to feel that what I am doing, weird as it may seem, is a good path for my particular children. This only works, though, if you tell people what your family is like, and sometimes that feels pretty scary or disrespectful of your children and is hard to do, especially as your children get older.

-Nan

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I think this is an excellent discussion, Laura. For our family, personally, we aren't strict followers of the classical method. However, we are very strict followers of pushing our children academically to their maximum potential. The focus is not necessarily on the liberal arts, but may be highly intensive in math and science (which isn't quite so "classical.")

 

 

I've enjoyed the discussion.

 

An interesting thing happened on the journey. I had always viewed my son as a natural biologist with an engineering bent. Between his Montessori education and TWTM, he has developed a passion for history. He is not the best Latin student, but enjoys it. If we had placed more emphasis on math and science, we may not have discovered these interests. This is not to say that we de-emphasized math, science and technology. It is just that we have held high standards in these subjects as well as literature and history. I think that this is part of the point of general liberal arts education.

 

I have enjoyed this thread tremendously. I will add though that when some of us wave a curricular material enthusiastically, we are not necessarily suggesting that all students need to use that book or use it as we are using it. My bandwagon is not everyone else's but some will benefit from things that we have discovered in the process. If I use Dolciani, it does not mean that I am slighting Foerster, for example. Is this the problem of posting and email where unintended emotion or content can be read within?

 

With gratitude to comrades met on these boards.

Jane

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IOW, I admit I may "seem" smarter than the average bear (just thinking back to school and now as I try to find a group of women I "fit with", which is another post all together :rolleyes:).

 

But, I'm *not* really exceptionally or gifted-ly smart. I simply care about learning. And I *want* to be smart. I *wanted* to be an A+ student (without cheating I may add). And I was willing to work REALLY hard to be so.

 

My kids.......oh......not so much. Phlegmatic to the core, baby!!! Any grade is "good enough" as long as they don't have to work too hard to get it - LOL!

 

I push and I cajole and I pull to get out of my oldest what I get out of him. I wonder how I will find the energy to continue pushing him when he seems to be getting stronger and I seem to be getting weaker every day. I worry about our relationship as mother and son being overshadowed by our relationship of teacher and pupil.

 

OTOH, I worry that if I *don't* push, then academically I might as well have put him in public school for high school, so why should I continue homeschooling ..... and round and round it goes....:)

 

So, I have these books ordered as a start. I'm hoping they're more engaging than the Norton Anthology versions I looked at briefly last night! But at least if I read the books, whatever we do will be decided from a place of knowledge and not from fear. I really detest making my decisions based on fear!

 

Off to tackle our "good books" for the rest of the year!

Rhonda

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I have been enjoying this thread and considered jumping in early on, but I instead really wanted to think first about how we are still implementing TWTM. I remember the early days of the board, and though my children were young, I enjoyed reading the high school board for me. I learned so much. At first, I implemented almost everything. We did stick with Sonlight and for awhile I tried to figure out how to do it chronologically, but gave up and just stuck with the SL schedule.

 

At first, I thought we haven't really stuck with classical ed. I was beating myself up for only completing 2 years of Latin,but then my dd came home from Spanish class and thanked me for the times we chanted Latin and conjugations as that really has helped her. As we worked on Warriner's grammar, I wished I had finished R&S up through 8th grade, and been less relaxed. Then as we completed the exercises I realized she knew more than I thought she did. As we read Eusbeius' History of the Church together, I wish we had read more challenging works in the past. Then she explained a point to me in the History that I had missed.

 

While I haven't implemented everything as I thought I would when I first read TWTM, she has still learned so much. Most importantly, she has learned how to think. When I consider that when I pulled her out of ps, she couldn't really read (and the teachers didn't think she ever would), we have come so far. We still have a ways to go, but we are enjoying the journey.

 

Thanks for this thread!

 

Veronica

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My name is Lizzie and I am a classical homeschooler.

The WTM boards have been my source for friendship, help, advice, solace, amusement and help with teaching my children for almost 7 years now. TWTM was my first experience with a "how to" and it was and remains my finest source for reference. I consider our school "eclectic classical" and while I no longer strictly follow the outline of a classical education a la WTM I still love the concept.

I think sometimes, I get lazy, ok, no, I know I do. I get tired. My 11 year old yells about hating one subject or another. My seven year old hates speed drills. Being here inspires me daily to be a better teacher and a better mother. I have gleaned so much and am so grateful for these boards and the gurus on it. I read certain folks posts because I know they school in a similar manner than I do. I ignore many (unless I feel I have something to offer) because they are not where I am, with kids the same ages or stages as mine. There are some people who post and I smile just to see their names. So, maybe the boards have changed. Maybe many of us have grown in different ways. Maybe I so wish I were a better writer and could say all this more eloquently. We are all in the trenches together, learning together and trying to serve our children as best we are able. And that is classic.

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He's brightish, so I had to choose whether to go farther or broader with him when he was in elementary school. I chose broader, taught him French, got him robotix, had him read almost the whole children's non-fiction section in the library, taught him to draw, did piano, etc... Now that he is older, I'm having to make a new sort of decision, more like the one you described. I've decided that although we will encourage the engineering-type things out of "school", for school, our approach will be, for the sake of his creativity, to give him the things he won't get once he is in his vocational program in college. That means an emphasis on art, music, more languages, great books, and anthropology/geography/travel. Not that we will neglect the science and math; just that we won't let courses in them take up all his time. We made a similar decision with my 17yo., who is also headed for something other than liberal arts. So far, these seem to be the right decisions. My 13yo is very happy to be able to speak French and is now tackling Arabic. He has decorated the livingroom cabinets with comics he has drawn. Whenever he is a little bored, he heads for the piano and makes up pieces. All this seems to balance his almost incessent building very nicely, just as his gymnastics seems to be necessary because it allows him to be able to sit still and focus the rest of the time. These things all seem to feed into each other. He transfers one thing to another and makes it look like he is especially creative to outsiders who don't see the source.

It is a very difficult decision, though. Often, I make it the other way round, opting to let them excell at something they are good at rather than spend the time making them mediocre at something they are bad at, allowing them to be lopsided rather than "well rounded". In the end, there is no way mine are going to be well rounded people. They were born extreme lopsiders. I'm just trying to give them some inner richness to sustain them through the boring bits of life, and crossover creativity.

This has been an interesting discussion. Every time we do something like this on the board, I learn tons.

-Nan

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I was interested in a discussion about whether TWTM boards, at least the academic ones such as the K-8 boards, should be smaller because there was a greater percentage of WTM users there, or broader, where using TWTM didn't matter.

 

Of course the answer lies in neither extreme, because it was rhetorical, but the second part of the question was a legitimate concern to me and some others: where are the classical homeschoolers?

 

Not that I was trying to make some kind of managerial decision based on responses! LOL I was just trying to see what might happen if I asked a question like that.

 

My question was inspired by the phenomenon of mega churches. A mega church includes a lot of marketing. They are trying to draw as large a crowd as possible in order to evangelize to them, and it might be the case that the message becomes diluted in order to keep it palatable to new or potential believers. Some smaller churches evangelize on the outside, but once someone is brought into the fold, more is asked of each believer, and that rigor of belief sometimes turns people away who might consider the tenets or practice of the Christian life too too hard. It happened in Jesus life; it was almost the theme song of everyone around Him. In the case of churches and homeschool boards I think both the rigorous and the (choosing words carefully here) more accessible are valuable depending on how much a person can handle.

 

I just wish "rigor" hadn't been turned into a dirty word the past few days!

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Coming from a sort of newbie ~ I've only been homeschooling 3 years, lurked on the old boards the whole time and just recently started posting here ~ I agree with Kelli.....

 

There is variation, no doubt. I still consider WTM The Book I turn to for answers and inspiration. I have tried nearly everything SWB suggested and some of it has fallen by the wayside simply because I am lacking.

 

I have not adhered to WTM as closely as I would have liked. But reading that book every year and listening in on the conversations on this forum have made me a better teacher and have made me try harder.

 

When I first started homeschooling I knew no one else. I felt totally alone and I had NO clue what I was doing. I stumbled across The Book in Barnes and Noble and my life changed in an instant. I rushed home, devoured it and started writing out lesson plans and buying books. And things were ...ok... for awhile. It was very hard to do espeically with no encouragement. Then I found the forums. Hallelujah! I didn't post, I lurked because I didn't feel like I knew what I was doing. [still don't:)]. But I found answers to whatever I needed. I noticed that very few people seemed to be 'hard core classical followers' of The Book and at first I thought that was odd. But as time went on and it wasn't working for us so much, it was great to discover that was okay to try something different. My daughter is very athletic and not artisically inclined at all. We finally dropped music completely and the only art we will do is photography. Is that classical? No, but that is the beauty of homeschool.

 

I try to stick to the 'core' English, Math, Science, and History and then the 'core' of classical education ~ writing, reading, logic, languages and latin. I do the best I can and pray it is enough and come here for support!:)

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I just wish "rigor" hadn't been turned into a dirty word the past few days!

 

 

Hmm, I don't think it did become a dirty word for me, but I do know this: When I was schooling my dd in middle school recently, her education was absolutely rigorous. I wouldn't have it any other way, because we homeschooled *primarily* for academic reasons. However, I know we didn't line up just right with the WTM. And I'm not sure whether or not, based on the fact that it wasn't pure, that it would be considered rigorous enough by some.

 

My burning cry has always and ever been, "Make sure your children are educated, and educated well, whatever it takes." And I think I've done that diligently. But not purely as outlined in The Book.

 

(And I know I'm one who messes up the purity of these boards. I'm thankful to be allowed under the big tent.)

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popular when the children were young and then there would be a great dropping off of people who were unable to throw themselves fully into the studying required to give the higher levels of Classical Education. I'd love to see a poll of who is still doing what they dreamed off 5+ years ago. As our children grow older, us older WTM'ers get pretty busy, and we don't want to feel like we are beating people over the head for what they are choosing to do. I was always the wacko one around all the other homeschoolers I visited with in my area, but proof is in the pudding. I am on the slow and steady, not perfect path and seeing fabulous results. I'd encourage everyone here to do Latin to its fullest, to jump into the Progymn and learn it themselves, to toss out the twaddle and read only the best books, and push hard on math and not give up. I'm glad the days of debating who is really classical and who is only neoclassical have died down. I don't want to even call myself classical after those, just because I'm not educating little Classicists, but working on bringing up children who can serve in any area the Lord calls them. Right now I'm in the force who is in the trenches working hard and not giving up. With middle schoolers etc., we don't have time to enter the curriculum debates as much. We are preparing to figure out all the high school credits and how to teach what we've never learned ourselves. It is 12:18 and I'm working on a phonetic translation of Carmen in French so my daughter can prepare for her parts. I don't even know French, what am I doing? I'm just doing everything possible to give my children the fullest, deepest, richest education possible. I encourage all new WTM moms to not take the easy road, but read and search and research and really know what they are teaching and why.

 

This is great!!! This is the kind of stuff I LOVE to read on these boards - it's sooooooooooooo encouraging to me as a Mom of still-grammar stage kids!!! I know nothing about the debates you mentioned (and don't really want to know :)), I'm just so happy to read these occasional posts from WTM Moms who are HAPPY with having done what they have done. Thanks for taking time from your French study to post. :)

 

Thank you!

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However, this summer I had a "turning point" of sorts in my approach with my children. I listened to Douglas Wilson's talk from the 2007 ACCS Conference last summer in Atlanta, entitled, "Lowering Standards While Submitting to Christ's Authority." The main thrust of the message was in maintaining high standards in education while not losing the children you're trying to teach. He used an analogy that, ultimately, we all want to give our children a million dollars (i.e., an excellent classical education), but if they end up hating it and us for it, we've given them nothing. You'd have to listen to the entire talk to catch all his points, and there's a false dichotomy which he outlines in the talk. Another main point he made was in communicating the enthusiasm of subjects and defending their importance with our children.

 

I guess what I learned from that message, which I listened to repeatedly, sometimes with tears, is that I really do want to do so much more with them, but I can't lead or push my "sheep" beyond what they're capable of retaining at the moment. My girls do rigorous work; their test scores show that. But, I have to keep my eyes always on them and what they're capable of doing, and lead them with love (not to imply that others who do more are not doing that! Of course not!). So---it became apparent to me that I could not get them to move further on in Latin beyond Henle I without losing their hearts. They were mentally and emotionally finished with the subject. So, I felt like it was time to move on and allow them to do a modern foreign language, which we'll tackle next year, having just finished Henle I this year.

 

Oh, this is such good food for thought, too. Thank you so much for posting all this.

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I do think that the core of posts/posters has changed a bit over the 7 years I've been visiting these boards. One common thing, though, is something dh and I heard as we were exploring the idea of hs. We heard this from a co-worker of his whose wife had homeschooled their children for years. That is that what all homeschoolers share, no matter the approach, is a passion for seeing their children succeed and making sacrifices to see that happen. Even though the nitty gritty of the day to day approach can be very different for different families, I've come to understand the wisdom of this comment.

 

We are a family that started out trying to follow TWTM to the letter when my oldest was a 5th grader. Although I quickly found out that my son was not up to the level of literature recommended at such a young age, I did find his passion for a good story. I also found that I had to reduce expectations in some areas in order to meet him where he was. I've also found that we came to the high school years too quickly with this son where we've had to make decisions about how much emphasis to place on particular subjects given the time we have left and my son's interests.

 

I share Michelle's view that sometimes you have to make a decision to move on to a different subject if by not doing so, you will kill your child's passions. Just switching gears like this (especially with a teen) doesn't necessarily mean that you've choosing the "easier" route. With some teens, I think it easy to see where their talents/interests lie, and that makes it easier to help them find enough time and balanced their activities so they can pursue their passions.

 

I really appreciate the diversity of methods and hs approaches represented on this board. When I read a post by someone whose methods are drastically different from mine, it really makes me think outside the box a bit. I have to ask myself, "Am I really missing the point of teaching this subject? Or, perhaps this approach just wouldn't fit my child or our goals." Many, many times here, I've been inspired to make changes or to try an approach that I wouldn't have had the courage to try before because I know others have been down the road. The result has been an added richness to our homeschooling.

 

Literature, for example, has not been a strength of mine. I hated, hated literature in high school and being forced to read many books that I did not have the experience to understand or interpret. When my son started his high school years, I was determined that he would not hate literature. As a result, we've taken a more non-traditional approach. I felt empowered to do that by reading many posts here and by reading TWTM.

 

We've read a lot of good books together and discussed them, and he's written about them, but I sometimes feel that I neglected analyzing each book completely, as a literature teacher would have done. As we near the end of high school, I wonder if my son will be prepared to tackle the few literature courses he will need to take in college -- but, I realize that he does not hate literature like I did. I did not kill his love for a good story. So I guess I succeeded in one way, but perhaps failed in another. Only time will tell. My heart says he will be fine, though.

 

So, thanks to all for your perspectives, and for sharing your approaches, struggles, and successes. This board is the one forum where I feel free to discuss and contemplate a what a rigorous education looks like. I also feel free here to share our struggles and our successes. I very much enjoy hearing about others' successes so I can rejoice with them and wonder at the possibilities of educating a high schooler at home.

 

Brenda

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Oh. P.S. Dd is also learning how to program a graphing calculator. She likes it. She thinks it's fun.

 

Thanks to all for this thread. I love thinking out loud with you gals!!!!!

 

Peace,

Janice

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Coming into this question late... and I'm not about to read all 8 pages of responses at this point, so forgive me if I'm repeating.

 

I started the classical model from the get-go about 8 years ago. I found TWTM at a bookstore, bought it, devoured it, and was completely sold on the idea.

 

I started posting on the WTM forums in 2002, and have been posting on and off for these past six years.

 

Over that time, I have noticed exactly what you have mentioned. I am always surprised at the fact that there are unschoolers, unit study-ers, and other non-classical methodologies here. I'm certainly not saying that there is no merit in those methods, but this is, after all, a board for those following the constructs of WTM --- isn't it???

 

I noticed a large jump from classical to "other" when VegSource started to become snooty in their posting policies. I wonder if there was a large influx of people because of that? Maybe there just aren't enough other places for people to post? Just musing out loud...

 

I come here for encouragement to stay the course when I feel it's becoming difficult. I come here to ask questions. And lately, it feels like I'm a dinosaur. I only consider myself to be moderately classical, but even that feels out of place. Someone asked a question about a classical piece of literature, and there were only two responses to it - mine and one other persons. I would have assumed many more people, especially on a board for classical educators, would have been able to answer that question. I asked a few questions about greek, and I received very few responses. It makes me wonder if anyone is even bothering to teach greek at all.

 

ANYWAY...

 

I share your sentiments. And yes, I know that I'm responded to a high school board and I don't have any high schoolers yet. (LOL)

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Over that time, I have noticed exactly what you have mentioned. I am always surprised at the fact that there are unschoolers, unit study-ers, and other non-classical methodologies here. I'm certainly not saying that there is no merit in those methods, but this is, after all, a board for those following the constructs of WTM --- isn't it???

 

I guess I just always assumed that all were welcome by the the owners of the board.

 

??

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I guess I just always assumed that all were welcome by the the owners of the board.

 

??

 

I'm sure that they are. But I guess I don't really understand why someone who's not using WTM would want to post here. After all, I don't use Sonlight, for example, so why would I go to Sonlight forums to post and ask my questions, kwim?

 

Okay... I'm just going to crawl back into my little hole now... :rolleyes:

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I am always surprised at the fact that there are unschoolers, unit study-ers, and other non-classical methodologies here. I'm certainly not saying that there is no merit in those methods, but this is, after all, a board for those following the constructs of WTM --- isn't it???

 

Earlier, and more passionately:rolleyes:, I was trying to get across the point that all these other methodologies can work WITH TWTM. It sounds like many unschoolers/unit stud-ers/relaxed schoolers have used WTM for their inspiration,impetus and basis for homeschooling. I feel like I am so far way from the classical model, but I still gather inspiration from the book and from the board. Constantly. Someone mentioned that she is glad those of us who fall in this category are "allowed" to be here. I guess I feel the same, although I never thought of myself as tolerated. But perhaps those of us who are eclectically inclined ARE tolerated and allowed to play with the others!

 

 

 

Someone asked a question about a classical piece of literature, and there were only two responses to it - mine and one other persons. I would have assumed many more people, especially on a board for classical educators, would have been able to answer that question. I asked a few questions about greek, and I received very few responses. It makes me wonder if anyone is even bothering to teach greek at all.

 

I've noticed this too. Honestly I think it is because there are SO many posts and this board moves SO fast. I can not keep up unless I was sitting here 24/7. I don't think it's a lack of classical people out there (obviously, as this thread attests to!) I think posts get "lost".

 

Just some other thoughts as this conversation continues. I see a great difference in methodologies that coincides with the REASONS we actually choose to homeschool. It has been interesting in this thread to see where most of you are "coming from" in your decision to homeschool. For those of you that are more TWTM "hardcore" (as it were) it seem academic rigor was something you found lacking in the school system so you decided to set that standard at home. For my husband and I academic rigor was important, but our daughters freedom from being a "sheep" in a structured state run school environment, learning what the "state" decides she should learn is what led me away from the public school system. The ideals I have about what school should be are reflected in my approach which was inspired and motivated by TWTM. We started from that standpoint, but added some Montessori, some Waldorf, some unschooling, and whatever else fit with our family.

 

When I first started I burnt us both out by pushing 10 subjects a day. Pushing play dates, events, field trips and "we have to be classical". We chafed. Then because of circumstances in life we unschooled. That seemed to be frustrating to us because it lacked structure. We found a middle ground. I am neither. But I'm still "allowed" in both camps. ;)

 

This has been a fascinating thread because while I have been feeling a bit marginalized, so have the more classical schoolers! Perhaps, when it comes down to it, it's a product of the new forum, how it is working, changing and gathering more people to inspire.

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I'm sure that they are. But I guess I don't really understand why someone who's not using WTM would want to post here. After all, I don't use Sonlight, for example, so why would I go to Sonlight forums to post and ask my questions, kwim?

 

Okay... I'm just going to crawl back into my little hole now... :rolleyes:

 

No, I didn't mean it that way.

 

I don't post on the Sonlight forums because I don't LIKE the Sonlight forums. And they're not particularly inclusive, at least IME.

 

Despite the how some feel the general board looks like middle school sometimes (and I agree and have, I suppose, inadvertently contributed to that atmosphere on occasion), there's a passel of very smart, entertaining, and committed people on this board. They don't all look like me. They don't all believe like me. They don't all educate their kids that same way as me.

 

I dunno. I was in the wave of folks who adulterated the boards, and while I'm not really offended at those who pine for the good old days, I'm always at least a little taken aback by it. I was thinking about incorporating some WTM ideas (before I read the book) and found the forums. They seemed casual and welcoming, so I jumped in. And I did modify our schooling to include the parts of WTM that worked for us (Latin, some outlining, sequential history, original source texts, the grammar and math recommendations, etc). But I know that my posting about life and not literature rankled some users. I would have desisted if the Ghosts in the Machine had asked me to do so, though.

 

Anyway, I hope even my contributions on this board have helped one or two, even though my big kids were/are institutionally schooled for high school. There's enough side discussion about SAT's, college entrance procedures, transcript prep (which I've done), AP requirements, etc. that even though I can't even imagine having it together enough to homeschool high school with the rigor that I demand of myself and my kids, I feel I can be a useful member of the community even over here.

 

Hope that's a decent clarification of why I'm still around. :)

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Pam,

 

Can you suggest a board where she can get more than one or two people to answer her questions about classical education? I would like to suggest this forum to newbies. I'd love for classical homeschoolers to feel like there was a community here for homeschooling issues that don't involve a certain textbook or a different program to buy. I'm starting to feel like some people would rather we be denied this.

 

My point was not to drive anyone away. I know it seems like that to some people, and if I really was trying to doing that, I think SWB would be aghast. I personally need some encouragement in doing the classical method. I have found out that I'm not the only one. I have been glad to find out that I'm not alone.

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Oh, I'm not saying that we should do "method cleansing" on this board or anything like that. (LOL) I'm fine with all the people here. It just has me scratching my head sometimes, that's all. I can glean wisdom from other people, whether or not they are die-hard WTMers. I hope I don't come across as "I wish there were only WTMers here and everyone else would scram!" Just wanted to clarify. Nope. Not meaning to marginalize anyone at all.

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I tend to spend more time on the general board since the switch because ds, my last homeschooler, is almost done and I don't need as much input and direction as I do down time and stress relief (aka the teachers' lounge)!

 

That said, something I've noticed the entire time I've come to these boards is the infrequency with which the truly Classical hs'ers visit and post as opposed to the more relaxed hs'ers. The ladies I have most admired over the years for the success they have seen in their homeschooling efforts have been some of the most scarce. Why? Perhaps they are too busy homeschooling to spend time at the boards. They pop in every once in a while if they have a pressing question or wish to share an encouraging success story, but they are able to attain that rigor in their academics because it is their sole focus and takes up a great deal of their time.

 

I do admit that there has also been some change to this homeschooling community over time. The homeschooling population in general has shifted and continues to evolve and perhaps these boards are a reflection of that change.

 

I have learned so much from everyone here over the years. It took me several years of reading and lurking to feel confident enough to post at all. I am truly thankful there is a community such as this.

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Pam,

 

Can you suggest a board where she can get more than one or two people to answer her questions about classical education? I would like to suggest this forum to newbies. I'd love for classical homeschoolers to feel like there was a community here for homeschooling issues that don't involve a certain textbook or a different program to buy. I'm starting to feel like some people would rather we be denied this.

 

.

 

I think I find that here when I really look for it. I have never had a question go unanswered.

 

I make a point to mostly stay out of certain conversations. I read them, glean from them and keep my agreement/disagreement to myself. On this (as in the highschool) board there is rarely a question I would be bold enough to answer. I am so far from where most of you are and truthfully there have been posters who have a "if you can't do it like this you ought not do it at all" attitude. I don't want to tangle up with that sort of argument.

 

On the old boards there was one poster who literally said "If I could not do it better than the public schools, I would not do it at all". That smacked. My heart hurt for the very discouraged, fairly new homeschooler that she said this to. I don't know if I am alone here, and I do not presume to speak for others, but most of the time I am unwilling to put myself "out there" because I know that I am not the brightest bulb on the tree. That makes me a little bit afraid to give my opinion, because it does not always match up with this board.

 

All that to say, there are probably others like me who are still sold on WTM, trying our best to implement every bit of it that we can, struggling through pieces of literature that our own education never required, trying to understand logic, etc. But we may have had to make concessions in some subject areas just to be able to get it all done.

 

I don't think very many here want to deny the original vision of classical homeschooling. And for the handful that do, the new boards offer an ignore function for those posts!:p

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I think the problem is that nobody fits into labels very well.

 

Myrtle says she's not doing TWTM and not doing classical, and yet we need her and Charon's expertese (sorry about spelling) on math. They are providing guidance on rigourous, classical math.

 

Tina in Ouray and Plaid Dad don't seem to be doing TWTM because it isn't classical enough (forgive me if I'm wrong) but we need their guidance for logic and Latin, and for other definitions of classical.

 

Jane in NC is more science oriented than TWTM, but we need her input on doing science classically.

 

Ellie isn't doing TWTM but she has a vast experience with the legalities of homeschooling.

 

I AM doing TWTM more closely, but am not rigorous or academically minded.

 

Lisa NY was doing TWTM fairly but her oldest is in public high school now.

 

Abbyej isn't doing TWTM because her children are academically gifted, but she herself was homeschooled and is generous with her very sensible advice.

 

Someone on the curriculum board (don't want to mangle her name so I'll skip it) has the energy to do research, especially about French programs, and offers the results of her hard work to us all, but she has very young children and isn't really doing much academic work yet.

 

And so on and so forth. So many valuable people. And these are only the ones I thought of off the top of my head!

 

If you rolled us all into one, then we would be rigorous WTMers. LOL

 

-Nan

 

PS I think we all have to remember that SWB and JW offered us the best curriculums they could find that weren't too expensive, weren't too hard for your average bear, and were easily available at the time they wrote the book. Many of the board posters' modifications are because options now exist. That's a huge function of this board - to help keep TWTM updated and to help us all personalize our choices. Don't I remember SWB saying she wasn't going to do any more updates of her book because the board was doing a fine job at that? (If I misremembered, please forgive me SWB.)

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Nan:

 

Well said. Very well said.

 

We all contribute no matter where we are on the journey. But we are all here because TWTM motivated and inspired us and we BELIEVE in,and to some degree or another, we follow TWTM.

 

We are here because of what we gain from the boards. While I tend toward relaxed/eclectic I gain just as much from the posters who are "hard core classical" than I do from fellow relaxed schoolers.

 

I disagree with the idea that we should only be here if we actively follow TWTM as has been hinted at/mentioned by some posters. We are here to learn from others. The boards are like one big library of homeschooling resources based on TWTM.

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Pam,

 

Can you suggest a board where she can get more than one or two people to answer her questions about classical education? I would like to suggest this forum to newbies. I'd love for classical homeschoolers to feel like there was a community here for homeschooling issues that don't involve a certain textbook or a different program to buy. I'm starting to feel like some people would rather we be denied this.

 

My point was not to drive anyone away. I know it seems like that to some people, and if I really was trying to doing that, I think SWB would be aghast. I personally need some encouragement in doing the classical method. I have found out that I'm not the only one. I have been glad to find out that I'm not alone.

 

I would hope that someone who is starting to classically educate their child could get help on these forums. I'm starting to think that it's possible that I'm not understanding fully what the issue is here, but I do know that for some of us, textbooks are involved. Some are even recommended by WTM. Right? I accidentally allowed my copy to be permanently "borrowed," but R&S (and formerly Abeka), Wheelock's, and what, Singapore? I don't recall the other maths that are recommended texts.

 

You mean other programs like Veritas or Omnibus or Sonlight or Ambleside, right?

 

Anyway, Laura, I have to say that I am very sorry that you don't have as much support as you need here or are uncomfortable recommending the board to new people. My discomfort, I guess, rests in the fact that perhaps my posting here adds to *your* discomfort.

 

(And believe me, if we were in the same room you would know by my body language and tone that I have nothing but respect in my heart and conversation on my mind while participating in this conversation. I think it might be possible that my posts might feel a bit curt and provocative. It's not my intention to provoke, I promise, just to clarify and explain my thoughts as I read this thread.)

 

And no, I don't know of another forum. Vegsource was not a safe place for me -- too much anger and hurt feelings and drama and misunderstandings, then the banning of this or that person for vague reasons. Sonlight forums -- well, not my cup of tea, as I didn't really FOLLOW Sonlight after I found WTM, I just used some of their materials to streamline my life. Yahoo groups don't feel cozy enough and occasionally annoy me both in format and moderation choices. Denim Jumper was welcoming, but I wasn't at home there, though I adore (from afar, lol) Poppins. So I'm really no help with suggestions.

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I'm sure that they are. But I guess I don't really understand why someone who's not using WTM would want to post here. After all, I don't use Sonlight, for example, so why would I go to Sonlight forums to post and ask my questions, kwim?

 

Okay... I'm just going to crawl back into my little hole now... :rolleyes:

 

Because a lot of information can still be given and gleaned from even if your not a strict WTM'er.

 

On that note, I'm a member of two other homeschool boards and I'm sure it may happen here as well...but why are people who are no longer homeschooling, but have put their children back in ps still on homeschool boards??

 

I guess everyone has their reasons for being here...

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I would hope that someone who is starting to classically educate their child could get help on these forums.

 

That would be me! I'm in my 8th month of this crazy & wonderful classical/WTM hybrid form of homeschooling. I, for one, am so thankful TO GOD for you ladies -- and gents -- who so graciously share your wisdom w/ us newbies. All my choices have come from SWB and/or you fine folks.

 

As for those who don't homeschool their grown-up kiddos any longer, yet still post and share on the forums here -- THANK YOU!! (nod to Janet in Seattle) because I have been blessed by YOU :)

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Do you suppose the owners and moderators here would be open to the idea of a "Classical Only" board?

 

Just an idea. That way, those who wanted a close knit specific community would have it.

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I have been following this thread wondering if someone else would post this but since it hasn't been posted after 8+ pages I will ;) These boards are not just about TWTM but all the books/curriculum that Jessie and Susan have produced. Most of those books are not exclusively classical in nature. They reach a broad spectrum of hsing styles. SOTW is used by Sonlight which is Beechick/ lit in nature. SOTW with its activity guide can be used with ease by unit study, CMason, eclectic, ect..... folks. Susan's new book for the ancients is not elusively classical and again could be used by all kinds of hsers. Jessie's books are not exclusively classical either.

 

If you look at these boards from a purely business perspective they are a support for set of products which come from a classical view but are easily adapted by many types of hsers. The more books that Susan and Jessie write that can be easily adapted by a wide range of hsers the more diverse the boards will be. In the beginning they were more classical because TWTM comes from that view and Susan had yet to write SOTW but now all of Susan and Jessie's book have hit the hs market and are used by all kinds of hsers. I would wager that these boards do not move back to an inclusive classical type boards but will increase in a blend of classical and...... That is good for Susan and Jessie because it means more books bought by a broader spectrum of folks rather than books bought only by classical hsers. Being on the boards for as long as I have I know that they are not here from a business only perspective that Susan sees these boards as a way to bless hsers and God bless her for that!

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{Whops . . . this is the high school board . . . rigour away, gals. Fill your boots. Get those kids ready for university! I thought I was on the curr. board. *sigh*)

 

 

I think you posted very eloquently and gently about meeting your children at the heart-level while continuing to pursue "rigour" in your academics. I often find myself squirming while reading the "purists" point of view for education and academics.

 

I believe rigourously educating a child in the classical/neo-classical method is lovely so long that the K - 6 child not be burdened with heavy, lengthy academics. IMHO, joy of learning is THE foundational cornerstone for a young child to carry on with higher level academics. If it burdens a child's spirit just to finish the K- 6 years, will they have the stamina/desire/joy to keep plugging? Or will academics become a battle of the wills, plotting parent against child and possibly damaging what should be a lovely, long-term relationship?

 

I want my children to look back on our school days with fond, happy memories . . . it forces me to be on my game, and always working hard to deliver school in a way that agrees with the different personalities of my kiddies.

 

 

Musings from this end.

 

T

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Because a lot of information can still be given and gleaned from even if your not a strict WTM'er.

 

On that note, I'm a member of two other homeschool boards and I'm sure it may happen here as well...but why are people who are no longer homeschooling, but have put their children back in ps still on homeschool boards??

 

I guess everyone has their reasons for being here...

 

I really, really hope that your post has not hurt people. I'm going to try to be nice here, since I am really angry right now at such an insensitive post. :mad:

 

Right off the bat, I think of Ria, a long-time poster on these forums, who has just placed her dc in ps. She has contributed so much to this place, and I, for one, am grateful for her. Are you saying that she no longer has a place here because she no longer has children at home????????? Goodness!! That's like saying older women, who longer have children at home, no longer have anything to contribute to younger, new moms.

 

Many hs moms, who have placed their children in public/private school for one reason or another, can still bless us with their wisdom and experience.

 

Maybe some of these women just want to stay in touch with friends, or see what is happening, or maybe share their experience.

 

On a personal note, I have one dd in ps, and another who will be going in two years. I plan to keep in touch here.

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LisaNY: I don't think Lamere met anything negative by her post. I think she was taking off of the poster who asked why would anyone come here if they don't follow WTM? and Lamere meant...for that matter, why do people who aren't homeschooling here? That was how I took it. IN a why are ANY of us here, way.

 

Snowwhite: I was thinking of this earlier...perhaps a portion of the board for those that are following more strictly and those of us who are more eclectic in nature. The problem is, some of the best ideas I've implemented are from those who consider themselves rigorous. The support I get comes from places I wouldn't expect and I'm so happy when it does! I'm afraid I would linger on only one aspect of the board and miss out. One thing I like about the boards is that I am challenged and inspired by those I wouldn't otherwise agree with, KWIM?

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I'm sure that they are. But I guess I don't really understand why someone who's not using WTM would want to post here. After all, I don't use Sonlight, for example, so why would I go to Sonlight forums to post and ask my questions, kwim?

 

Okay... I'm just going to crawl back into my little hole now... :rolleyes:

 

Sonlight is a forum created *specificially* for those using that curriculum, just like the TOG forum was created *specifically* for those using that curriculum.

 

I see WTM as an approach to teaching, that can be interpreted and utilized in so many different ways. It is not a *specific* curriculum, per se. It's an amazing treasure trove of ideas meant to inspire us to make it our own. I don't think SWB ever meant for us to follow it to the letter.

 

I think the majority of people represented here are those who are really serious about giving their dc the best education they possibly can. We all have our "bents" and strengths, but I think we all share that common goal. That is why I come here for support. I have learned SO much from the great people here. The wisdom and advice that I've received here has been invaluable to me, and has made me a better hs'er.

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Because a lot of information can still be given and gleaned from even if your not a strict WTM'er.

 

On that note, I'm a member of two other homeschool boards and I'm sure it may happen here as well...but why are people who are no longer homeschooling, but have put their children back in ps still on homeschool boards??

 

I guess everyone has their reasons for being here...

 

The question could have been posed out of simple curiosity. "Tone" is somewhat hard to read over cyberspace.

 

There are many on these boards who used to homeschool who still come back to visit, and I'm sure the question was not posed as a challenge---at least, that's not how I read it.

 

:)

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I don't have a lot of actual *content* to add to this thread in this post, but I will say this: I have hope that with the new board format, we can return to having this kind of discussion again. On the old format, we would often get a good discussion going, but it would "die" after the particular board flipped. As flipping got more frequent, it was almost impossible to have a sustained discussion of anything, including classical education or parts thereof.

 

Now, with this new board format, I can "subscribe" to a thread, and that means that I can actually have five minutes to THINK about what it is I want to say and create genuine content rather than flurried reactions. I hope that we can all start to do this more often with threads that require more thought and continue those discussions that are of interest at a deeper level.

 

Kind regards to all,

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Now for the "content" post:

 

I have continued in the "classical" way, but it is not how I envisioned I would be doing so from the beginning. We are working more with a classical co-op at this point; I have shifted from history-centered to Latin-centered, and now that we have converted to Orthodox Christianity, I am taking a year to give my son intensive time in history of Eastern Christianity and in the Faith, so THAT is a shift.

 

Two other things strike me about why I don't post as much as I used to: first, I have settled down and into a path. There is less disruption because I don't worry so much about which math or Latin program--we just DO one. The second thing had a lot to do with the old board format. Why post ****again**** about what I think about classical ed, which it just flips in a couple of days? That objection is gone, and I might get inspired again.

 

Also, I think one reason people "drop off" the classical map in high school is that it is very tough to stand in this path when the ACT and SAT and PSAT and standardized testing and transcripts start staring you down. For those who don't have a strong sense of where they are going with all this, it is tough to stay the course. I have seen this within both the homeschool and private school classical communities--there are a number of classical schools with which I am familiar, and they all have a very tough time filling their schools when 7th/8th grade rolls around.

 

We're here for the duration, whether or not I am talkative about it.

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Patty Joanna,

I was wondering today what I will put on transcripts... whether to try to make "medieval and renaissance history" stand with that title, or how to classify subjects like logic or rhetoric (language arts?), or even how most state colleges will view subjects like logic or rhetoric. I want to do a year of Church history too, and does that count as a history or an elective?

 

A lot of local kids hit the public schools in 8th grade and do very well there. I'm seeing a lot of my local support wane as parents get discouraged, and then if the numbers aren't there, important social opportunities among homeschoolers aren't there like they were in the elementary years. Co-ops here are great until about 7th-8th grade, like you said, then it's harder and harder to find talented moms willing to put that much effort into a class that is supposed to count for "credit." Some here hang on by doing Sonlight or by online classes, most here just try to make it to the junior year when their kids can do dual enrollment. It definitely is more challenging, but I am enjoying homeschooling this year more than ever now that I have a high schooler.

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I have read all the posts and it has been an interesting thread.

 

I wanted to point out that if you have a copy of TWTM handy, you may want to read pages xxiii-xxiv titled Pratical Considerations: Using The Well-Trained Mind Without Losing Your Own.

 

The authors talk about the freedom we have as hs'ers and that they don't expect people to follow WTM to the letter. It was written as a guide, a way for us to see how it *could* be done, not how it *has* to be done. They state that us, as the readers, should do what works for our situations; including substituting books and using parts of the WTM vs. the whole.

 

They do state to consider working in a direction that is systematic and rigorous, but, to some extent, I think we will all define those terms a bit differently depending on our situation.

 

I had a realization today that I have at times in the past taken the path of least resistence when it comes to hs (some of it had to do with life circumstances at the time and some was just my failings). I think a solid, rigorous education is a good and worthy goal, but following WTM sample schedules to the letter isn't the only way to get there.

 

JMHO

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That's me. I jumped over here when VegSource got so difficult. When was that -- 4 or 5 years ago? Longer?

 

When I came, I had had no exposure to classical education, and was already committed to a more traditional Christian education. Which I still am. But I've been encouraged here to supplement with a classical education: we've finished 3 Latin programs, 2 logic books, FLL, SOTW I-IV, etc.

 

I appreciate coming here to learn about classical education, and I hope the classical emphasis continues.

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In TWTM, there is a very good section on what to "call" these things we do so that translation to transcripts...it kind of comes down to logging hours and then calling them where they are needed--so Great Books reading ends up in both history AND English. I also got an email from a homeschooling consultant today; the mail is about this very topic.

 

I'm finding our co-op situation getting dramatically BETTER as my son gets older. I could use the two co-ops with which I am affiliated to drive my classical goals for writing/rhetoric, Latin, science and history. My dh has math under control, our priest church history, and I have skiing and swim team. (wink) And whip-cracking. And general planning. WHICH IS NOT NOTHING!

 

I think I will like this better in the high school years; these junior-high years seem to be pretty much about transitioning from being a kid to being a young man, about learning how to handle larger work loads, and they frankly aren't as much fun. But I think we will find our way to the other side, back to the interesting conversations, and that's good. To tell the truth, when we get to DO that stuff, I like this homeschooling a lot.

 

It kind of freaks me out that I have a rising 8th grader on my hands, though. When did THAT happen?

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Patty Joanna,

I was wondering today what I will put on transcripts... whether to try to make "medieval and renaissance history" stand with that title, or how to classify subjects like logic or rhetoric (language arts?), or even how most state colleges will view subjects like logic or rhetoric. I want to do a year of Church history too, and does that count as a history or an elective?

 

 

Ok, I guess I feel a little funny posting this :D, but my dd goes to a private high school that has a four-year history cycle that includes rhetoric, literature, grammar, and history/art/music in an integrated way. Her transcript will read Foundations I, Foundations II, Foundations III, 2 credits each -- all the above will be described as an integrated unit with the description of, for example, Foundations I as "Ancients, with related literature, history, music, and art plus rhetoric and grammar study." Or at least words to that effect. Not just the course offering, but a descriptor following.

 

In her senior year, the coursework will split, with modern history standing alone on the transcript, and AP American History available as an elective. Literature study for modern history would then stand alone, but I'm not sure what it's called. Modern Lit? Something.

 

Anyway, colleges and universities are quite happy with those integrations on their transcripts.

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This is what I have been told, too, Pam, by others who have done this on homeschool transcripts. The thing they were careful to do was to explain what "Foundations I" (or whatever it was they called their conglomeration) consisted of in attached text.

 

I don't think all the high schools in our DISTRICT list the same courses the same way, so college admissions officers are certainly not looking for uniformity, but clarity.

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. The thing they were careful to do was to explain what "Foundations I" (or whatever it was they called their conglomeration) consisted of in attached text.

 

.

 

Ooh, that is NOT wording we would want to use! In our school district Foundations 1 is the math before prealgebra and Foundations 2 is prealgebra. I would not like a college to mistake this. I would be worried that someone would look at the transcript in a hurry and think my student had been taking middle school math in high school!!!

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Ooh, that is NOT wording we would want to use! In our school district Foundations 1 is the math before prealgebra and Foundations 2 is prealgebra. I would not like a college to mistake this. I would be worried that someone would look at the transcript in a hurry and think my student had been taking middle school math in high school!!!

 

:) Well, Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Duke, Penn, Sewannee, Rice, Smith, Carnegie Mellon, and a boatload of others liked it just fine last year for at least 44 students from NC.

 

Like I said, I really wouldn't put something like that on there without a description.

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Patty Joanna,

I was wondering today what I will put on transcripts... whether to try to make "medieval and renaissance history" stand with that title, or how to classify subjects like logic or rhetoric (language arts?), or even how most state colleges will view subjects like logic or rhetoric. I want to do a year of Church history too, and does that count as a history or an elective?

 

 

Don't have time to read all of Patty Joanna's thoughts right now but just want to respond to this comment from Laura. Yes, do let your history stand with those kinds of titles. My daughters have both had courses with TWTM like titles listed on their transcripts. We tried for clarity in the course title, but also had course descriptions available.

 

Some of them were outside courses, some were courses done at home. We broke their history down into time periods- though we did separate out American History so the universities knew we had met that specific requirement. We also had courses like Intro to Philosophy, Humanities I & II honors (an outside course on history of the arts), Logic, Rhetoric, etc. We had different types of composition, but one dd did one semester of a course titled Rhetoric. All the state universities were fine with the transcript they received. My second dd received an invitation to apply to the honors program at the university she now attends, probably based not only on her ACT/SAT scores but on the fact that her Great Books type transcript demonstrated possible compatibility with the type of honors classes offered in the first year of the program.

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