Will dd not be prepared for her chosen major?

[Guest Katia]

My dd wants to train dolphins. She wants to study marine biology. She is SO looking forward to going with this in college. But.....

 

Reading this forum has me thinking that perhaps her abilities don't lie that way. She is not a math person. Oh, she is better at it than her older sister, but I would say she is simply average at best. She is struggling through TT, but at least she is understanding math with TT.

 

We have read and read on here that TT is not enough for a science major. Ok. We get that. But, she is really, extremely worried that if we change to a more rigorous math program that she will be lost (like when she started Saxon algebra 1 in 8th grade).

 

I am telling her that TT in 8th grade is ok. That TT 2 in 9th grade was ok for algebra 1, but now she needs a 'good' algebra 2 program. She is worried she won't be able to keep up, and then her dream will be lost because she didn't study or wasn't able to understand the right level of math in high school.

 

We wrote to Dr. Wile and he agreed with everyone here that we needed to switch out of TT and go with either Saxon or Chalkdust. That is what he recommended to us. We looked at Chalkdust and dd didn't like it. sigh.

 

Don't kids in ps who are not math wizards still catch up in college and still study science? Aren't their brains still forming connections at this age and when she is older she will understand it better?

 

I really want to encourage her. She is a good student. Not a trouble maker ever and she really works hard to do everything I ask her to go in her studies. Unlike her siblings, (grin) she has never tried to get out of doing her school work. We always thought she was good in math (as did she) until we stopped using Saxon. Her test scores went down and she has struggled.

 

Anyone have encouraging stories of their dc or someone they know that was just average in math and still reached their science degree dreams? Is it still ok to be average?

[Jane in NC]

Don't kids in ps who are not math wizards still catch up in college and still study science? Aren't their brains still forming connections at this age and when she is older she will understand it better?

 

 

 

Well, Katia, I think that part of the problem is that modern biology is just not what it used to be when I was a student. My friend who is a microbiologist says that his students now have to understand differential equations in order to understand certain biological processes. He notes that he never studied differential equations as a student--it wasn't required.

 

The subject of changes in biology education came up this morning with my son. He is using the latest edition of the college Campbell book which begins with molecular biology, material that I never encountered as a student and material that a number of older AP biology teachers on the AP Bio listserv say that they have did not see until grad school if at all! Today my son was complaining about a chapter on invertebrates which introduces students to 1001 phylla it seems, showing connections between many. This is not the way I studied biology when the focus was on taxonomy. One was introduced to a phyllum or order within a phyllum and studied the animals within. Now we did not necessarily see the connections between a nematode and a planaria, commonalities that are now emphasized as animals are studied in an evolutionary sense.

 

But what does this have to do with math? Well modern biology education demands more math. Additionally, there are a number of highly competitive students who major in biology who have an eye on med school. They can be cut throat. Does this mean that your student should alter her dreams? Absolutely not. But she needs to know that she may have to push herself a little harder to obtain her dream. And when she gets there, the accomplishment will be all the sweeter.

 

Good luck to the two of you.

Jane

[Myrtle]

 

Anyone have encouraging stories of their dc or someone they know that was just average in math and still reached their science degree dreams? Is it still ok to be average?

I am sure there are anecdotes of individuals making it through any program that's ever been marketed since there are always kids that succeed, but statistically speaking

the average

high school student does not even get a college degree, much less a degree in math and science.

 

Here's what I mean. In the state in which I live half of the students do not graduate high school. Out of the students that do graduate about half go on to attend college, and about half of those graduate. Out of the students that graduate the majority of them are education and liberal arts majors.

 

I have seen statistics online that say that if a student places directly into Calculus in their freshman year that they have a much, much greater chance of finishing their math/science degree than a student who placed back into algebra, and the chances are indeed very slim for a student who can't even place into algebra. While textbooks may be labeled, "college" algebra, there really is no such thing. Algebra is not a college level course, it is a high school level course. If it were "college" level you'd see AP exams in which students could earn college credits toward algebra. Similarly, calculus really is a college level course even though it's offered in high schools. Most math and science degree programs that I have seen do not count algebra as a credit and consider it remedial work.

 

The moral is that it really doesn't matter what your textbook author says about the quality of the high school math program that they themselves created, what matters is how the university evaluates your students' preparation. Can you contact the math department to find out what their expectations are? Can you find out what placement test they use? Can you find samples to practice? By the end of high school can your student do the problems they give their students in the textbook they use for their course? Does the department have released copies of finals from their algebra course? What exactly are the math requirements in the major that your student wishes to pursue?

[Charon]

I would say, Katia, that you absolutely have to start planning on placing into calculus if what Jane is saying is true. (Who knew that biology was so math intensive!) If you don't place into calculus -- if your daughter isn't playing at that level -- then it will be a miracle if she actually manages to graduate in a field like that (that needs diff eq's, for instance). No doubt. You cannot do TT.

 

Maybe if you could cruise through as easy as possible and perhaps accelerate the program so that you actually make it to calculus, and if calculus was just some requirement that you could just get through and never have to worry about again, then maybe you could kind of slop it up a little with the math. If you really are going to have to be doing differential equations and stuff like that all the time, though, there is no way your daughter can be "bad at math" and do this.

 

Maybe your daughter should rethink just what she wants to do. If this is what is entailed in Marine Biology, then is she really sure she wants to be one? Doing diff eq's isn't training dolphins. In fact, even without this diff eq issue, training dolphins is something else entirely from marine biology, anyway, I think. It is probably all rolled up into some big mental package -- "I'll be a marine biologist and train dolphins... yeah...." Well, the truth is probably that those are in reality two different activities and now she should figure out what really appealed to her about it -- the dolphins or the idea of studying marine organisms. If she really is emotionally "all in" on the studying of organisms, then she should figure out why the math is so important to that and maybe the math will start to matter to her more and she'll become a lot more mathy. If she just wants to be an animal handler and train dolphins, then she probably doesn't need to be majoring in marine biology.

[periwinkle]

I really think you need to check on the college programs for marine biology. I have a hard time believing that she needs to be a math whiz for this major. I do understand what Jane is saying about biology changing over the years, but I don't know any bio people who are also math gurus. Back when I was a biology major, we were ALL average in math. I was a lab assistant at a college a few years back and the biology majors were STILL average in math. Now, it was a different story for the chemistry and biochem majors.

 

Who knows something about MARINE BIOLOGY programs? Wasn't Janet in WA's son in that field (but I think he switched?)

[langfam]

I didn't have time to read all the replies.

A few thoughts I have:

 

Perhaps your DD was not developmentally ready in 8th grade for Saxon Alg 1. ( I have one DS like that, so we're waiting.)

 

Also, my DC did not like the DIVE CD, but have done very well with the TEACHINGTAPE series. The teacher, Paige Singleton, is very clear, concise and easy to understand. You can request for a sample DVD and they'll send it to you.

http://www.teachingtape.com/

 

Last thought. Saxon Teacher will be coming out soon. That may be a big help since it will have all the soultions to the text and tests . (like TT)

 

HTH

[Jane in NC]

I really think you need to check on the college programs for marine biology. I have a hard time believing that she needs to be a math whiz for this major. I do understand what Jane is saying about biology changing over the years, but I don't know any bio people who are also math gurus. Back when I was a biology major, we were ALL average in math. I was a lab assistant at a college a few years back and the biology majors were STILL average in math. Now, it was a different story for the chemistry and biochem majors.

 

 

 

I looked at the marine biology program offered at a university near me. Calculus and Physics are required, just one semester of Calculus but two semesters of physics (students can choose Calculus based physics or the more general course that only requires precalculus.) Statistics is also a requirement for the degree as well as two semesters of regular chemistry and one semester of organic.

 

My comments concerning my friend the microbiologist should be clarified in that his students are grad students at one of the top universities in the country. The average biology undergrad may not need as much math, unless they want to do something with biometrics or biochem as you mentioned. Marine biology is a subject that is not offered as an undergraduate major at every university. Many students pursuing marine biology begin with a general biology degree then go to grad school for their specialty.

 

I cannot help but wonder if biology as a field will require more physics and chemistry (and more math) as the emphasis on molecular biology grows. This is pure speculation on my part.

 

Jane

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

If she just wants to be an animal handler and train dolphins, then she probably doesn't need to be majoring in marine biology.

 

Last time I was at MarineWorld, the animal handlers we talked to were ALL marine biologists to start with. But is it really a requirement?

 

A quick google gave me this link

 

We often hear people say, "I want to be a marine biologist and train dolphins." While it is true that some marine biologists do train dolphins and many trainers have degrees in biology, the two job descriptions are really quite different.

 

and later on:

Education

As mentioned earlier, the operations and needs of each facility may be very different. The level of education required varies considerably. Some facilities only require a high school diploma for entry level positions. Many now look for a minimum of a bachelors degree in a related field such as biology, psychology or animal behavior. Some facilities routinely hire candidates with a 2 year diploma or certificate from a specialized school, such as Moorpark College's Exotic Animal Training and Management Program. In any case, a strong knowledge of animal biology, behavior, water chemistry, nutrition, veterinary medicine, marine ecology, and related fields is extremely valuable if a person is truly interested in achieving success and progressing in this field. It maybe vital if they want to some day advance to a supervisor, curator or director level. Advanced degrees are becoming more and more common and are critical factors at some institutions when considering managerial promotions.

[Chris in CA]

My dd has similar goals, and is not exactly math orientated, well let me clarify last year she loved math, this year after using CD pre-algebra, she has lost all of her math self-esteem and is not so sure about the whole subject. I plan on starting her in TT7 next week and using TT Pre-algebra in 8th. I know this does not seem rigorous at all, quite the opposite, but honestly - I want her to understand math and I believe that TT will help with that. Now, if after using the TT hs levels, if my dd needs additional help, I'll enroll her in a cc class to get up to speed for college, but I think at this stage of the game having her not loathe math, having her understand it and remember why it works that way far more outweighs having her do a more rigorous math program.

It won't be in the end of our world if she has to have some help later (cc class or whatever) but it would be a shame kill her dream in 7th grade. I want her to like math again, and I want her to understand what she is doing, that is my goal right now.

Chris

[Bev in B'ville]

My dd asked the trainers about their educational background. They ALL (without exception) were marine biologist. Most had dual degrees, some psychology, some animal behavior. We did not think to ask about math. My dd is taking AP Biology using the same book as Jane's son. It is very intense. If this is considered an entry level course in college, then it should get real interesting later on.

 

Bev

[Halftime Hope]

Ds was always a very good math student, but I was no longer able to teach him at the end of Algebra 2 and precalc was a disaster. (2 deaths in the household and immediate family, major house renovations, packing and impending move, and a lousy precalc curriculum.)

 

We backed him up even though he passed the calc readiness test at the local state univ, and this year he has done precalc there, so that he is *very well grounded* and prepared for Calc as a freshman engineering major. The engineering advisor told me that even kids with AP Calc tests/credits are coming in unprepared for freshman calculus, so they make them (engineering students) take calc at the univ anyway. No matter what.

 

Hope that helps shed some light on a similar situation.

[Charon]

Ds was always a very good math student, but I was no longer able to teach him at the end of Algebra 2 and precalc was a disaster. (2 deaths in the household and immediate family, major house renovations, packing and impending move, and a lousy precalc curriculum.)

 

We backed him up even though he passed the calc readiness test at the local state univ, and this year he has done precalc there, so that he is *very well grounded* and prepared for Calc as a freshman engineering major. The engineering advisor told me that even kids with AP Calc tests/credits are coming in unprepared for freshman calculus, so they make them (engineering students) take calc at the univ anyway. No matter what.

 

Hope that helps shed some light on a similar situation.

 

 

In fact, let me just use this post to point something out. When I was in high school, I never got national merit scholarships. I never took AP calculus. I was on the AP track, but I just made it up through precalculus.

 

And, I placed into honors calculus at a second teir university.

 

In fact, that sort of thing was quite normal at the time.

 

Okay, the AP Calculus is becoming notorious among mathematicians for how bad it is. Doing advanced material poorly is not going to help you. You need to do the elementary prerequisites really, really well. This is how doing something like accelerating through TT can actually end up hurting you. You end up at a high level but playing a very weak game. When you get out of your sheltered environment of TT, you can end up getting hammered by "the real world". Hopefully, you can just take your lumps and drop down low enough to redo the material you have to do more carefully and thoroughly, but you might just be stuck having to perform at a level you can't possibly hope to perform at. Best case you just wasted a lot of time doing a bunch of stuff you have to go back and repeat. Worst case you have to drop out.

[freethinkermom]

Marine Biology was my major. Math is important, BUT many schools have a math track specifically for the life sciences. It may not show on the overall requirements list, but if you look through the classes that fulfill the requirements you will likely find "calculus for life sciences." It is still calculus, but it is more interesting and sometimes a little easier because it is directly related to the sciences. If marine biology is the direction your daughter wants to go, do not let math discourage her. IMHO, TT will be fine. When she gets to college she will take a placement test and they will place her where she needs to be for their school. If she is ready for calculus they will place her there, but if not she can work her way up to it.

 

If she is truly interested in training, please have a look at Moorpark College. It is a community college, so if a student wants a 4-year degree she must transfer after finishing her Associate's. Moorpark has the only dedicated exotic animal training program and it is well respected. I worked as an assistant keeper at a zoo in high-school, and Moorpark was considered the place to go.

[Kanga]

You can easily look up the math requirements for any of the colleges that she is interested in attending. I believe most Bio majors only have to take Calc 1. My dd is a biochem major and she only has to take calc 1 & calc 2 though she is choosing to take more. She also doesn't have to walk into the college ready to take calculus. My ds want to be a bio major but struggles with math. Although I plan on taking him through precalc at home (maybe calc if we can both stand the pain) I will not be upset if he chooses to retake precalc his first semester of college.