Why do commercials always seem to make 'men' seem like the dumbest people...

[Danestress]

that once, 15 years ago, a prominent feminist said something stupid that bothered many SAHMs. It was on the news for days, it was in the papers and on the evening television, and years later, people still like to harp on it. Why?

 

I guess because we so badly need to believe that people are "against" us.

 

Truly, most feminists don't believe that women shouldn't have the choice of staying home. Not even Senator Clinton believes that, obviously.

[Pongo]

It always seems 'men' look to be so stupid in commercials. I can't think of ONE where it is the other way around.

 

One in particular.....the 'husband' took care of some weeds in the yard...but guess what....? the 'dumb man' killed the GRASS along with the weeds...thus leaving big dead spots in the yard. But....never fear....'wife' arrives with the PERFECT weed killer that doesn't kill the grass. If she was so smart....why didn't she do it in the first place, LOL!

 

Am I the only one that notices....?

 

.

 

Because women are the ones producing them:D JK

[LisaNY]

that once, 15 years ago, a prominent feminist said something stupid that bothered many SAHMs. It was on the news for days, it was in the papers and on the evening television, and years later, people still like to harp on it. Why?

 

I guess because we so badly need to believe that people are "against" us.

 

Truly, most feminists don't believe that women shouldn't have the choice of staying home. Not even Senator Clinton believes that, obviously.

 

There are feminists who don't agree w/women staying at home.

 

Linda Hirshman is one of them. She wrote "Get to Work: A Manifesto for Women of the World".

[OnTheBrink]

HILLARY CLINTON: I suppose I could have stayed home and baked cookies and had teas, but what I decided to do was to fulfill my profession which I entered before my husband was in public life.

 

 

 

I hate baking cookies and I make it a personal rule to never have teas. I guess I'm lousy at SAHMing. :lol:

[pqr]

that once, 15 years ago, a prominent feminist said something stupid that bothered many SAHMs. It was on the news for days, it was in the papers and on the evening television, and years later, people still like to harp on it. Why?

 

I guess because we so badly need to believe that people are "against" us.

 

Truly, most feminists don't believe that women shouldn't have the choice of staying home. Not even Senator Clinton believes that, obviously.

 

 

You are absolutely correct, but the following is a list of prominent feminists who might nor agree with either one of us.

 

"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can r@pe women...he can s@xually molest his daughters... THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE."

-Marilyn French, (her emphasis_ Author; (later, advisor to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.)

 

"All men are r@pists and that's all they are."

-Marilyn French

 

All s@x even consentual s@x between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetated against a woman."

-Catherine MacKinnon

 

"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it."

Former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan

 

"The traditional flowers of courtship are the traditional flowers of the grave, delivered to the victim before the kill. The cadaver is dressed up and made up and laid down and ritually violated and consecrated to an eternity of being used."

Andrea Dworkin

 

"Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release."

Germaine Greer.

 

"Men who are unjustly accused of r@pe can sometimes gain from the experience."

Catherine Comin, Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students.

 

"You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs."

Catherine MacKinnon (Prominent legal feminist scholar; University of Michigan, & Yale.)

 

'To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo."

Scum Manifesto. (Valerie Solanas)

 

"The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness...can be trained to do most things."

Jilly Cooper, SCUM (Society For Cutting Up Men.)

 

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig."

Andrea Dworkin; from her book Ice and Fire .

 

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them."

Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor

 

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies."

Andrea Dworkin

 

"And if the professional r@pist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference."

Susan Griffin, R&pe: The All-American Crime.

 

"If the classroom situation is very heteropatriarchal--a large beginning class of 50 to 60 students, say, with few feminist students--I am likely to define my task as largely one of recruitment...of persuading students that women are oppressed," said Professor Joyce Trebilcot of Washington University, as quoted in Who Stole Feminism: How Women Have Betrayed Women.

 

"A good part-and definitely the most fun part-of being a feminist is about frightening men." --Julie Burchill

 

"In order to raise children with equality, we must take them away from families and communally raise them." (Dr. Mary Jo Bane, feminist and assistant professor of education at Wellesley College and associate director of the school's Center for Research on Woman).

 

"The family is the basic cell of government: it is where we are trained to believe that we are human beings or that we are chattel, it is where we are trained to see the sex and race divisions and become callous to injustice even if it is done to ourselves, to accept as biological a full system of authoritarian government." - Gloria Steinem

 

 

 

 

I remember going to my wife's graduation and hearing Helen Caldicott, another noted feminist and anti-nuclear activist, make the most outrageous statements. So bad, in fact, that they were removed from the transcript of her speech that was published a few days later.

 

Of course not all feminists hate men, not all hate familiies, not all hate SAHWs, not all hate women who chose a traditional role, but it appears that some very prominent ones do

 

One final quote.

 

From 'A feminist Dictionary; ed. Kramarae and Triechler, Pandora Press, 1985:

 

 

MALE:...represents a variant of or deviation from the category of female. The first males were mutants...the male sex represents a degeneration and deformity of the female.

 

 

MAN:...an obsolete life form... an ordinary creature who needs to be watched...a contradictory baby-man...

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2009 by pqr

[melissel]

It's absolutely true that some famous feminists have said and done some stupid things in their youth, in their zeal, in misguided fervor, in the infancy of a movement that was, in spite of what you may think, sorely necessary, and even today. Shall I also make a list of some of the hateful, hypocritical things famous and well-regarded Christian leaders have said and done? Would you agree that these leaders represent all Christians? Can we now write off Christianity in their names? Do they epitomize what Jesus stood for? Is the value in Christianity and its import in this world negated by their words or sentiment? Do you still call yourself a Christian in spite of them and carry on in what you believe is the true work of your faith?

Edited April 27, 2009 by melissel

[Danestress]

BUt do you really believe that that represents the bulk of the feminist movement?

 

I can come up with some pretty hateful garbage written by Christians. Would that prove that Christians are hateful and stupid? Or would it just mean that such Christians do in fact exist?

 

People do and stay ridiculous things. When I read statements like the ones you outlined, I cringe. And when I read homeschooling Moms make arguments that daughters mostly need homemaking skills rather than Algebra, I also cringe. But neither of those views represents any kind of majority opinion.

[Jenny in Florida]

While my daughter clearly likes boys and I would be surprised, I would be just as happy if she decided to have a family with a female partner as I would her having a family with a male.

 

I also would be happy if she decided to be a planned single parent.

 

I'd be happy if she decided she didn't want kids at all and focused on her career.

 

I'm glad my daughter has a lot more choices even than I did, and certainly many more than my mother did.

 

Yep, and I feel the same way about my son.

 

I'll be happy as long as my children are happy and make choices that are healthy for themselves and those around them.

[Jenny in Florida]

Over time, the feminists have taken it too far. Reversing the roles on men. They stand against women who *choose* to take on the stay-at-home role. Family dynamics have changed and not for the better.

 

Aw, gee. I just feel I have to say that I consider myself a feminist. I'm also a stay-at-home, homeschooling mom by choice. I would be happy and proud for my daughter to do the same, if it is the right choice for her.

 

I keep thinking "the mommy wars" are over, but it seems not.

[Jenny in Florida]

I can come up with some pretty hateful garbage written by Christians. Would that prove that Christians are hateful and stupid? Or would it just mean that such Christians do in fact exist?

 

Thank you. I wanted to make this point but feared it would incite too much coming from me.

 

No one Christian speaks for all believers.

 

No one homeschooler speaks for all of us.

 

No one feminist defines or controls the "movement."

 

Last time I checked, no one was releasing official policy statements from Feminist Headquarters.

 

I truly don't understand the need to cast so many things in an "us versus them" light.

 

We're all individuals who should be judged on our own merits, just as the ideas we believe in should be.

[Danestress]

There are feminists who don't agree w/women staying at home.

 

Linda Hirshman is one of them. She wrote "Get to Work: A Manifesto for Women of the World".

 

 

I understand that there are very public figures who have taken that position and gotten a lot of publicity for it.

 

I don't know a single woman in real life who wants to take away the rights of women to stay home. I also don't know a single woman in real life who "stands against" women staying home. I know women who think it's a bad idea, who wonder how I will manage of DH leave me, etc. But I don't know any stridently 'anti-SAHM' women, despite knowing feminist doctors, lawyers, professors, writers, teachers, etc. I know far more women who bash working Moms than the other way around.

 

That doesn't mean that such women don't exist. They do exist and you might actually know women who truly believe that women should not have the option of raising children at home. But I have never in 41 years met an actual, real live woman who thought that, and I have known a lot of feminists.

 

Interesting discussion.

[pqr]

It's absolutely true that some famous feminists have said and done some stupid things in their youth, in their zeal, in misguided fervor, in the infancy of a movement that was, in spite of what you may think, sorely necessary, and even today. Shall I also make a list of some of the hateful, hypocritical things famous and well-regarded Christian leaders have said and done? Would you agree that these leaders represent all Christians? Can we now write off Christianity in their names? Do they epitomize what Jesus stood for? Is the value in Christianity and its import in this world negated by their words or sentiment? Do you still call yourself a Christian in spite of them and carry on in what you believe is the true work of your faith?

 

Switch and bait does not work. We are not speaking of Christianity here and simply because a Christian leader may have made an outrageous comment this does not justify what these creatures said. I suppose the big difference is that while most Christians will unequivocally condemn statements by Christian leaders that are "beyond the Pale," I have not heard this from feminists. You, yourself, are actually attempting to defend and justify the indefensible. These were comments that are so outrageous and hate-filled that they were counterproductive.

 

Nevertheless, to answer your question I will hold to my religious beliefs regardless of what some gormless idiot may have said. Unlike you I will not speak of zeal or youth, but will state that some comments by alleged "leaders" set them apart from what I believe in. I do not justify idiocy on the scale demonstrated by these feminist leaders. Perhaps I do not need to as the hatred that is fairly commonplace in the feminist movement is not so in those who speak to my religious beliefs.

.

[Impish]

Personally, I'm sick to death of the way men tend to be portrayed on tv and general media. They're comic relief, generally speaking, at least in any family type shows.

 

The role of the husband and father has been dwindling in importance and value for some time in North American society. A prime example would be: if a man walks away from a spouse and children, that's one thing...but if a woman walks away! Now that's where the neighbours really react and talk is when the Mom walks. Its become almost (if not actually) acceptable for men to walk away from children, born or almost, because as a society, we simply don't value their roles as fathers the way they should be.

 

 

[Danestress]

Perhaps I do not need to as the hatred that is fairly commonplace in the feminist movement is not so in those who speak to my religious beliefs.

.

 

And perhaps this is largely a matter of experience and perception.

 

I'm by no means "active" in the feminist movement, but back in my wild youth, I used to subscribe to Ms magazine. Does that give me creds?

 

Anyway, I haven't experienced much of the "hatred" that you refer to. I see it in the media sometimes, and I saw it sometimes in the aforementioned magazine (though that wouldn't by typical of the articles there). Most feminists I know, even the pretty strident ones, even the lesbians, are reasonably fond of men. God knows I am:) I don't see a lot of hatred toward men or toward more traditional women coming out of mainstream feminist organizations or out of individual feminists I know. I am 41. Maybe it was more strident in the 70s but I was just a kid and wasn't exposed to that.

 

That said, I also haven't experienced hatred much from Christians - either before or after I became one. I see it on tv sometimes. I can certainly find it online. But all the Christians I know suffer from a variety of flaws but could never be called "hateful" (the same is true of the non-Christians I know personally).

 

I sort of think the computer skews our sense of reality.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I do not justify idiocy on the scale demonstrated by these feminist leaders. Perhaps I do not need to as the hatred that is fairly commonplace in the feminist movement is not so in those who speak to my religious beliefs.

.

 

So leaders in a movement you participate in say nasty things. But they are not the leaders you follow, so it's not the movement that is the problem in your case. Is this what you are saying?

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

It is truly sad, as well as a defect in logic, that the leaders of the modern feminist movement have chosen to push ahead by bashing men rather than advocating the attributes of women. They compound this further by pressing for the rights and choices of women but then bash the women who make choices that do not fit with their agenda. Not necessarily successful strategies.

 

Funny that this is the lead teaser on Wikipedia today...

 

"A Vindication of the Rights of Woman is a 1791 book of feminist philosophy by Mary Wollstonecraft. In it, Wollstonecraft responds to the educational and political theorists of the eighteenth century who wanted to deny women an education. She argues that women ought to have an education commensurate with their position in society, claiming that women are essential to the nation because they educate its children and because they could be "companions" to their husbands, rather than mere wives. Instead of viewing women as ornaments to society or property to be traded in marriage, Wollstonecraft maintains that they are human beings deserving of the same fundamental rights as men."

[pqr]

So leaders in a movement you participate in say nasty things. But they are not the leaders you follow, so it's not the movement that is the problem in your case. Is this what you are saying?

 

 

Jedi I am not quite sure what you are getting at. The leaders I follow simply do not make statements such as those I quoted. If they did I would condemn them and disassociate myself from them. Go back and read some of what was said, it is pornographic, hateful, the words of individuals whose hatred is so visceral and so deep that they have lost contact with reality...... and yet some women will defend them.

 

Again you are trying a switch and bait. This is almost like the childhood argument "Johnny said it so I can too." This is an invalid argument.

 

While dodging the issue I have yet to see someone, who claims to be a feminist, state something to the effect that "the individuals that were quoted are hateful small minded individuals who epitomize all those things that are wrong with the feminist movement. Steinem has betrayed a just cause and denigrated the just demands of women through her man-hating speech as have the others".

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Jedi I am not quite sure what you are getting at. The leaders I follow simply do not make statements such as those I quoted. If they did I would condemn them and disassociate myself from them.

 

The leaders I follow do not make statements like that either. I am not going to stop being a feminist just as you aren't going to stop being a Christian.

 

It's not a bait and switch. Feminism is much like Christianity. There are many various women's groups, many of which do not all hold the same goals and values.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Academy of Jedi Arts

[pqr]

The leaders I follow do not make statements like that either. But just because I am not going to stop being a feminist just as you aren't going to stop being a Christian.

 

It's not a bait and switch. Feminism is much like Christianity. There are many various women's groups, many of which do not all hold the same goals and values.

 

 

Feminism like Christianity????

 

Oh, that is not even worth a reply beyond that you are obviously sorely misguided in one if not both concepts.

Edited April 27, 2009 by pqr

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Feminism like Christianity????

 

Oh that is not even worth a reply beyond that you are obviously sorely misguided in one if not both concepts.

 

Misguided, how?

 

Christianity consists of different groups of people who study and practice principles that differ from group to group. Some of these groups have an agenda beyond this, some do not.

 

So does Feminism.

 

Actually, from my understanding of Jesus, he was very much a feminist of his time.

[LisaNY]

I understand that there are very public figures who have taken that position and gotten a lot of publicity for it.

 

I don't know a single woman in real life who wants to take away the rights of women to stay home. I also don't know a single woman in real life who "stands against" women staying home. I know women who think it's a bad idea, who wonder how I will manage of DH leave me, etc. But I don't know any stridently 'anti-SAHM' women, despite knowing feminist doctors, lawyers, professors, writers, teachers, etc. I know far more women who bash working Moms than the other way around.

 

That doesn't mean that such women don't exist. They do exist and you might actually know women who truly believe that women should not have the option of raising children at home. But I have never in 41 years met an actual, real live woman who thought that, and I have known a lot of feminists.

 

Interesting discussion.

 

Understood.

 

I responded initially because of your statement that you have never met a feminist who was against mothers choosing to stay at home.

 

Thanks for the discussion. :001_smile:

[Greta]

I have yet to see someone, who claims to be a feminist, state something to the effect that "the individuals that were quoted are hateful small minded individuals who epitomize all those things that are wrong with the feminist movement. Steinem has betrayed a just cause and denigrated the just demands of women through her man-hating speech as have the others".

 

They are out there, though. Wendy McElroy is the first name that comes to mind. I'm not saying she uses those exact words, but the sentiment that the modern feminist movement has gone woefully off-track, yes. Christina Hoff Sommers also draws a distinction between "equity feminists" and "gender feminists" (the latter being the ones you quoted).

 

I agree that the kinds of sentiments you quoted are horrendous and inexcusable, and exactly the kind of thing that pushed me away from feminism. I think I am more of a "suffragist" than a "feminist".

Edited April 27, 2009 by GretaLynne
spelling error

[pqr]

I agree that the kinds of sentiments you quoted are horrendous and inexcusible, and exactly the kind of thing that pushed me away from feminism. I think I am more of a "suffragist" than a "feminist".

 

Thank You.

[melissel]

Switch and bait does not work.

 

:confused: I have no idea why the two situations would not be analogous. My point is the exact same one you made. I consider myself a feminist. I believe the world (and the US, still, to a certain degree) still needs to work toward equality and protections for women in every nation. It doesn't mean we work to grind men down. It means we work to lift women up. It's something I hold as dear to me as you hold your Christianity to you. Frankly, I don't give a **** what Gloria Steinem or Betty Friedan or Camille Paglia has to say about men or feminism. If asked whether I agree with them, I'll condemn their words and thoughts and actions if I believe they need condemnation (and yes, those quotes you used do require condemnation). In the meantime, they have no bearing on how I live out my feminist ideals. I would imagine you would feel the same way about some televangelist or well-known Christian writer spewing hate into the media as well. I guess I was mistaken? I'm really confused. I wasn't trying to trick you. I was trying to phrase it in a way you might be able to identify with, since clearly you can't identify with feminism directly.

 

I also think it's interesting that no one has addressed the point I made about women portrayed as nagging, overbearing, control-freaky witches in commercials and sitcoms. Does this not bother any of us as well? Whenever this issue comes up, I think of Everybody Loves Raymond. The men on the show are portrayed as henpecked doofuses, but the women are portrayed just as negatively. I remember my mom saying to me, not long after the show's inception, that Ray was very funny, but that she couldn't even watch the show because "that Deborah is such a **tch." And I'm not sure if it's a national spot, but there's a commercial running here that shows a husband and wife laboriously refinishing their pavers in their long driveway. As he explains to the neighbor (who obviously made the right, long-lasting brick choice), the husband is clearly being forced to do this by his unhappy, nagging wife, who wants their driveway to look as good as the neighbor's for a party they have on the weekend.

 

Advertising is sneaky and subversive. If, in the example Tammy gave us, the roles were reversed and it had been the clueless little woman who tried to kill the weeds and ended up killing the grass, with her knowledgeable husband swooping in with the proper product, would we be having this discussion? Would we have even noticed?

 

ETA: Gah! The server wouldn't let me get back on the board, and now some of my points have already been covered. Sorry for any redundancies.

Edited April 27, 2009 by melissel

[melissel]

and yet some women will defend them.

 

Who here has defended them? You brought them into the conversation.

 

Again you are trying a switch and bait. This is almost like the childhood argument "Johnny said it so I can too." This is an invalid argument.

 

No one here has said anything remotely like anything you quoted in that post, and no one is using those quotes to defend themselves.

 

While dodging the issue I have yet to see someone, who claims to be a feminist, state something to the effect that "the individuals that were quoted are hateful small minded individuals who epitomize all those things that are wrong with the feminist movement. Steinem has betrayed a just cause and denigrated the just demands of women through her man-hating speech as have the others".

 

Because they are just ONE group of people. They do not speak for us. We never said they speak for us. We do not speak for them. They weren't at issue in this thread until you made them an issue. They are not the mascots of feminism, whatever you may believe.

 

Feminism like Christianity????

 

Oh, that is not even worth a reply beyond that you are obviously sorely misguided in one if not both concepts.

 

Responses like this simply show how you are refusing to even try to see anyone else's arguments. You're missing our points. The quotes you've provided are just red herrings. Cling to them if you must. I'm sorry that you can't seem to participate in a discussion where we try to understand each other's sides.

Edited April 27, 2009 by melissel

[runninmommy]

Aw, gee. I just feel I have to say that I consider myself a feminist. I'm also a stay-at-home, homeschooling mom by choice. I would be happy and proud for my daughter to do the same, if it is the right choice for her.

 

I keep thinking "the mommy wars" are over, but it seems not.

 

Aw, gee, well I am not a feminist.

 

Just had to say that.

[Jenny in Florida]

Aw, gee, well I am not a feminist.

 

Well, I think that was clear, but I'm not sure what it has to do with what I said.

[runninmommy]

Well, I think that was clear, but I'm not sure what it has to do with what I said.

 

Well, I just don't see how your comment was relevant either. So I was just making an announcement like you.

 

I am a stay at home mom, home schooler and not a feminist.

[Jenny in Florida]

Well, I just don't see how your comment was relevant either. So I was just making an announcement like you.

 

I am a stay at home mom, home schooler and not a feminist.

 

As I recall, you suggested that all those nasty feminists out there were "anti" stay-at-home moms. My point was that I am a feminist AND a stay-at-home mom. And I'm not the only one on this thread who spoke up.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I also think it's interesting that no one has addressed the point I made about women portrayed as nagging, overbearing, control-freaky witches in commercials and sitcoms. Does this not bother any of us as well?

 

I think you have a good point. It's kind of like how homeschoolers are featured on shows like Wife Swap. A fellow homeschooler called me up one day and told me to watch an episode. I was horrified.

 

I am racking my brain to try to think of a show where there seems to be an equal balance between husband and wife or men and women. I'm not into TV much - or at least sitcoms and series much. I'll have to see if one pops into my head. I'm sure some of the more media savvy folks here might have an idea.

[runninmommy]

As I recall, you suggested that all those nasty feminists out there were "anti" stay-at-home moms. My point was that I am a feminist AND a stay-at-home mom. And I'm not the only one on this thread who spoke up.

 

 

Um. okay. Well, I suggested that there are a lot of feminists that were anti-stay-at-home Not "all of them" I think you have taken what I have said personally. I also said that I do not lump them all together and it is the movement that I have a problem with. There are also a lot of anti-feminist that spoke up. So again, what is your point???

 

I never said that feminists never stay home and home school their kids.

 

While I am at it, I would really LOVE to know what your (and others) definiton of feminism is?

 

I think that sometimes we lump ourselves into a group w/o fully thinking about why we associate ourselves with a particular group.

 

I am thankful for suffragettes. I am thankful to women that have stood up for what is right and good and moral. I am thankful that I have the right to vote and think and work and stay home with my children.

 

I can not stand feminists. I can not stand women who put men down. I can not stand women who put on manly traits and compete with men. I can not stand women who are cold, bitter and selfish. To me, that is what the feminist movement has become.

 

I think there is a distinct difference between a "feminist" and a woman who thinks for herself and has the ability to make intelligent choices.

 

 

But, again, just thoughts from my piddley little head. Take it as you may.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I can not stand women who put on manly traits and compete with men.

 

Are you saying that women shouldn't be CEOs or otherwise compete with men for top positions? Are you saying that a female athlete should not be able to compete in a sport that is traditionally male dominated or otherwise compete with men athletically? What about in the classroom, should women be competing with men in math and science classes?

 

What exactly is "putting on the traits of men" ??? I'm wearing a Carolina Tarheels T-shirt and a pair of boxer shorts right now (just got home into my comfy clothes lol), is this what you mean? Or is it women who physically look like men because of their facial features, build, or hairstyle? Or is it women who choose to have careers and have their husbands be stay at home dads (shout out to all the SAHDs out there- you rock)?

[runninmommy]

I think you have a good point. It's kind of like how homeschoolers are featured on shows like Wife Swap. A fellow homeschooler called me up one day and told me to watch an episode. I was horrified.

 

I am racking my brain to try to think of a show where there seems to be an equal balance between husband and wife or men and women. I'm not into TV much - or at least sitcoms and series much. I'll have to see if one pops into my head. I'm sure some of the more media savvy folks here might have an idea.

 

I hardly ever watch T.V. It is a waste of brain cells.

 

Your equal balance comment makes me think of my Dh and my marriage.

 

Balance, to me means that I respect, love and honor my husband. I help him when he needs it. I am his friend. I am his helper. I am his support. I let him be a man w/o condemning him.

 

In return he loves and respects me. He seeks my opinion. He appreciates all that I do for him. He CONFIDES in me. He is my soul mate. We are deeply connected and intertwined.

 

I hear from so many women who say they do not feel connected to their husbands. Their husband is not their best friend. They can not imagine having a deeper relationship with their husband than with a girlfriend. Why do you think that is??

 

Competition?

 

Pride?

 

Vulnerability?

 

I respect my husband. I support him. I help him.

 

In return he loves me, puts me on a pedestal and will do anything I ask of him.

 

Does it really come down to feminist/anti-feminist?

 

Or does it come down to Respect and Love?

 

How would the world be if we approached it from this viewpoint?

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Balance, to me means that I respect, love and honor my husband. I help him when he needs it. I am his friend. I am his helper. I am his support. I let him be a man w/o condemning him.

 

In return he loves and respects me. He seeks my opinion. He appreciates all that I do for him. He CONFIDES in me. He is my soul mate. We are deeply connected and intertwined.

 

That is pretty much the way my relationship is. I would also throw in there that not only do I honor my husband, but he honors me as well. Both of us were very clear that the word "obey" was not to be used in our vows.

 

I am unclear of the meaning of "I let him be a man w/o condemning him," though.

[tricia]

It's totally a feminist thing I think. I don't know. I just don't get into it at all. I also find it very hard to "respect" another woman who does it too. It's like, what do you have to prove? Just move on, live life lady and be happy.:auto:

[runninmommy]

Are you saying that women shouldn't be CEOs or otherwise compete with men for top positions? Are you saying that a female athlete should not be able to compete in a sport that is traditionally male dominated or otherwise compete with men athletically? What about in the classroom, should women be competing with men in math and science classes?

 

What exactly is "putting on the traits of men" ??? I'm wearing a Carolina Tarheels T-shirt and a pair of boxer shorts right now (just got home into my comfy clothes lol), is this what you mean? Or is it women who physically look like men because of their facial features, build, or hairstyle? Or is it women who choose to have careers and have their husbands be stay at home dads (shout out to all the SAHDs out there- you rock)?

 

I am simply saying that women should not try to look like or act like men. I am saying they should do the best to their ability as a woman. Not as a man.

 

No, women should NOT compete in sports equal to men like Football. Men are scientifically proven to be bigger, have more muscle mass, bigger hearts, capable of higher impact than women. Or do you think they should allow women in the NFL? With men?? Really?

 

I am all for women taking on positions such as CEO's and upper management. But if your going to do that, don't do it at the expense of your children. Either stay at home and raise your children OR have a career. Don't treat your children/family like accessories!!

 

I am talking about women that loose all traits of femininity period.

 

Um, okay, I'll play. I am sitting here in a baseball cap, jeans and T-shirt. I have used a four-wheeler, hoe, rake and tiller today. I am drinking a lager beer. Oh, does that mean I am trying to be a man? Um, No. Not at all.

 

I am talking about women like Katie Couric who think that in order to be taken seriously they have to look like a man. Shortest possible hair, no feminine traits what so ever, and lets not forget to talk and act like a man as well. And attack any woman who wants to be a wife or stay at home Mom.

 

You know what? If my Dh wanted to stay home and HS that would rock. I would have nothing against that. I know a few stay at home Dads. That has Nothing to do with the point.

 

It boils down to RESPECT for Men and Women. People get too caught up in what affiliation they relate to. Trying to live up to stereotypes. Instead of being honest and genuine in their intentions.

Edited April 28, 2009 by runninmommy

[Jenny in Florida]

Over time, the feminists have taken it too far. Reversing the roles on men. They stand against women who *choose* to take on the stay-at-home role. Family dynamics have changed and not for the better.

 

I can not stand feminists.

 

I'll say it again. I'm one of those feminists that you "can not stand." However, I don't think I'm actually any of the things you say we are.

 

I'm not anti-stay-at-home moms. In fact, I am one.

 

I'm not anti-man. I like, appreciate and respect men as much as I like, appreciate and respect women.

 

I don't try to undermine or mimic men.

 

I do all the things for my husband that you mention doing for yours.

 

I am not "cold, bitter or selfish."

 

And I'm still a feminist.

 

I think there are lots of people who like to find convenient targets to blame and generalize about whole groups of people. And I think that's wrong.

[runninmommy]

That is pretty much the way my relationship is. I would also throw in there that not only do I honor my husband, but he honors me as well. Both of us were very clear that the word "obey" was not to be used in our vows.

 

I am unclear of the meaning of "I let him be a man w/o condemning him," though.

 

Of course,

 

It means that I let him be who he is without browbeating him or competing with him. I don't make him feel like a moron every chance I get. I respect him, validate him and appreciate him.

 

I thought it would go w/o saying but he reciprocates everything I put out.

[runninmommy]

I'll say it again. I'm one of those feminists that you "can not stand." However, I don't think I'm actually any of the things you say we are.

 

I'm not anti-stay-at-home moms. In fact, I am one.

 

I'm not anti-man. I like, appreciate and respect men as much as I like, appreciate and respect women.

 

I don't try to undermine or mimic men.

 

I do all the things for my husband that you mention doing for yours.

 

I am not "cold, bitter or selfish."

 

And I'm still a feminist.

 

I think there are lots of people who like to find convenient targets to blame and generalize about whole groups of people. And I think that's wrong.

 

Please, please, please tell me your definition of a feminist.

[Impish]

Please, please, please tell me your definition of a feminist.

feminist

 

One entry found.

 

 

 

Main Entry:fem·i·nism Pronunciation: \ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm\ Function:noun Date:1895 1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes 2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

— fem·i·nist \-nist\ noun or adjective

— fem·i·nis·tic \ˌfe-mə-ˈnis-tik\ adjective

Just thought I'd throw in Webster's definition, since there seems to be a heck of a lot of confusion about what a feminist is and isn't.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Katie Couric who think that in order to be taken seriously they have to look like a man.

 

I have a friend who looks a lot like Katie Couric. I do not think she looks like a man. I also have Katie Couric looking pantsuits but these are not in an effort to look like a man.

 

Or do you think they should allow women in the NFL? With men?? Really?

I was thinking more like tennis. The NFL thing is a topic of much debate in my household. There are girls who play on high school teams as kickers. I am very much for this. I'm not sure how I feel about the NFL. I do think there should be a WNFL.

 

And speaking on the topic of sports- what about girls and women who play sports on female teams? Many of them have short haircuts because it is more suited to their sport. Many of them wear very male-ish looking uniforms. They often have healthy builds that can appear masculine. Do you think this is bad?

 

Either stay at home and raise your children OR have a career.

Why should anyone get to pass judgment on another woman for making a personal choice over whether or not to work - especially in today's economy? How is her choice affecting you? How is a woman's choice of what she wears or if she cuts her hair super short affecting you or anyone?

 

Don't treat your children/family like accessories!!

I do know women who treat their children like accessories. They are more concerned with what goes on their children's behind than what goes in their brains. They are more concerned with how their husband looks than how he treats his wife. But this has nothing to do with whether the women work or not. Actually, the women I know who are like this are not feminists. They are merely emulating what mass media and corporate advertisers tell them they should be as women. Many feminists are very much against this.

 

You know what? If my Dh wanted to stay home and HS that would rock. I would have nothing against that. I know a few stay at home Dads. That has Nothing to do with the point.

So it's okay for mom to work if dad stays at home. What about grandma? Aunt Ida? Are they okay to watch the kids while mom works? What about a woman who takes her child to work with her?

 

Part of the feminist movement is trying to get workplaces to be more in tune with the needs of working mothers. A lot of us WANT moms to have flex time, telecommuting options, the ability for every day to be take your child to work day.

 

How is it different for a mom to do housework all day and watch the kids than it is for her to do work for pay all day and watch the kids?

 

It boils down to RESPECT for Men and Women. People get too caught up in what affiliation they relate to. Trying to live up to stereotypes.

Most feminists I know want to break down gender stereotypes, not live up to them.

 

I am drinking a lager beer.

Cheers! :D

[Jenny in Florida]

Main Entry:fem·i·nism Pronunciation: \ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm\ Function:noun Date:1895 1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes 2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

— fem·i·nist \-nist\ noun or adjective

— fem·i·nis·tic \ˌfe-mə-ˈnis-tik\ adjective

 

That'll do. Or here's the opening of the article from Wikipedia:

 

Feminism is the belief that women should have political, social, sexual, intellectual and economic rights equal to those of men. It involves various movements, theories, and philosophies, all concerned with issues of gender difference, that advocate equality for women and the campaign for women's rights and interests.

[runninmommy]

.......

And speaking on the topic of sports- what about girls and women who play sports on female teams? Many of them have short haircuts because it is more suited to their sport. Many of them wear very male-ish looking uniforms. They often have healthy builds that can appear masculine. Do you think this is bad?

 

No, I don't think that is bad. I am very built. Strong arms, legs and core. I run marathons and do a lot of work around our farm. I was more leaning toward taking on a male persona. Loosing all traits of femininity. Trying to look like a man to be taken seriously like a man.

 

 

Why should anyone get to pass judgment on another woman for making a personal choice over whether or not to work - especially in today's economy?

 

I don't think it is a matter of weather or not to work in this economy. There are many times I have needed to work to bring in extra income. I worked around my children's needs though. I taught art in my home. I worked at night when my husband would be home with the children. I think it is more about being there for your children, raising your children and not dumping them off with strangers at the kiddie kennels.

 

How is her choice affecting you? How is a woman's choice of what she wears or if she cuts her hair super short affecting you or anyone?

 

It affects what my daughter sees on the mainstream media. It affects the idea of feminism and what one has to change to be accepted. It sends the message, "You have to look like a man to be taken seriously" It is crap.

 

I do know women who treat their children like accessories. They are more concerned with what goes on their children's behind than what goes in their brains. They are more concerned with how their husband looks than how he treats his wife. But this has nothing to do with whether the women work or not. Actually, the women I know who are like this are not feminists. They are merely emulating what mass media and corporate advertisers tell them they should be as women. Many feminists are very much against this.

 

I see this as well. My experience has been that they are self-proclaimed feminists. They feel as if they deserve everything or are owed in some way

 

 

So it's okay for mom to work if dad stays at home. What about grandma? Aunt Ida? Are they okay to watch the kids while mom works? What about a woman who takes her child to work with her?

 

Mom is best. Grandma is good if Mom/Dad can't be there, along with Aunt Ida. There are simply some situations in which a woman needs help. In these cases, family is best. Especially over daycare for sure. Why would you put your precious children in the hands of someone who is simply there for the money? Yes, I do know first hand. I worked in a daycare for many years, unfortunately. While I enjoyed the children, it simply was not the best place for them. I witnessed many cases of cruel and uncaring behavior on behalf of other teachers. I worked at a top-rated daycare. A learning center. The best place for a child to be is at home. Be it with Dad or Mom or Grandma. I do not think it is appropriate for a woman to take children to work with her. Good grief.

Part of the feminist movement is trying to get workplaces to be more in tune with the needs of working mothers. A lot of us WANT moms to have flex time, telecommuting options, the ability for every day to be take your child to work day.

 

I have no words for this. Except why should the workplace make these accomodations? It was not their choice for you to have children. I still think you should stay home and raise em, or have a career. Not expect the world to cater to you.

How is it different for a mom to do housework all day and watch the kids than it is for her to do work for pay all day and watch the kids?

 

Because if she is working, she is not watching the kids. The daycare/nanny/paid help is.

 

Most feminists I know want to break down gender stereotypes, not live up to them. All I can say is...Can't we all have a beer and get along? :lol:

Cheers! :D

Edited April 28, 2009 by runninmommy

[runninmommy]

That'll do. Or here's the opening of the article from Wikipedia:

 

Feminism is the belief that women should have political, social, sexual, intellectual and economic rights equal to those of men. It involves various movements, theories, and philosophies, all concerned with issues of gender difference, that advocate equality for women and the campaign for women's rights and interests.

 

Alrighty,

 

I can look up a definition of a word, but thank you for doing it for me.

 

I meant, what is your, personal, specific definition of feminism. Not what does it mean? :001_rolleyes:

[melissel]

I can not stand feminists. I can not stand women who put men down.

 

Apparently, women putting women down is OK though. This thread makes me very sad.

[Jenny in Florida]

Alrighty,

 

I can look up a definition of a word, but thank you for doing it for me.

 

I meant, what is your, personal, specific definition of feminism. Not what does it mean? :001_rolleyes:

 

But that is what it means. I don't see the confusion.

 

How about this: Since you're the one who started throwing the term around, why don't you step up and tell us how you define it?

[Danestress]

that most women who say they are feminists believe something pretty close to the definition you read. I'm not sure why you want us to have a "personal definition." I thought the dictionary stated it pretty well.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

It's totally a feminist thing I think. I don't know. I just don't get into it at all. I also find it very hard to "respect" another woman who does it too. It's like, what do you have to prove? Just move on, live life lady and be happy.:auto:

 

I think you might have a different definition of feminist than I do. :confused:

 

I'm very much a feminist, but I think bashing men because they are *men* and demeaning and belittling them is akin to wickedness. It's disrespectful and hateful.

 

Of course, bashing feminists because it's a convenient way to pigeonhole people doesn't please me very much, either. But I know that in some circles (and in the circles where I ran for 35 years and that most of my friends still move in) this is acceptable. Comparing us to Nazis is also acceptable, but that's a different radio show, I guess, and not saying you or others who don't like feminists do that.

 

(BTW, I'm not a feminist because I work for pay outside my home. I work for pay outside my home because it's a "season of life" thing and something I agreed to a long time ago, mutually, *with* my husband.)

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Trying to look like a man to be taken seriously like a man.

 

The idea is not "I need to look more like a man to be taken seriously." Actually, that is the total opposite of what most feminists believe. Women are told by society that our physical looks are more important that anything else. Girls are exposed to these ideals very young- think Disney Princesses. So the feminists who you feel "look like men" are actually making a statement- I don't have to be sexy or super feminine to be a woman. It is not an effort to look like a man, it is an effort to thumb one's nose at the male dominated society we live in.

 

I don't think it is a matter of weather or not to work in this economy. There are many times I have needed to work to bring in extra income. I worked around my children's needs though. I taught art in my home. I worked at night when my husband would be home with the children. I think it is more about being there for your children, raising your children and not dumping them off with strangers at the kiddie kennels.

Ahhhh, now I am beginning to understand. It's not the working you have an issue with, it is daycare. That is a totally different issue.

 

It affects what my daughter sees on the mainstream media. It affects the idea of feminism and what one has to change to be accepted. It sends the message, "You have to look like a man to be taken seriously" It is crap.

I don't know which media you are watching. A vast majority of what I see is modeling to girls that they have to change their breast size, wear makeup, and buy designer clothes (make themsevles attractive to men) to be taken seriously.

 

Mom is best. Grandma is good if Mom/Dad can't be there, along with Aunt Ida. There are simply some situations in which a woman needs help. In these cases, family is best. Especially over daycare for sure. Why would you put your precious children in the hands of someone who is simply there for the money? Yes, I do know first hand. I worked in a daycare for many years, unfortunately. While I enjoyed the children, it simply was not the best place for them. I witnessed many cases of cruel and uncaring behavior on behalf of other teachers. I worked at a top-rated daycare. A learning center. The best place for a child to be is at home. Be it with Dad or Mom or Grandma. I do not think it is appropriate for a woman to take children to work with her. Good grief.

I did an Early Childhood program at the associates level. I agree with you in that I have seen some bad examples and horrible things in my observations.

 

I did not choose daycare either. Just like public school, I did not feel like it was the best option for us. However, I would never presume to judge what is right for another woman and family.

 

There used to be a family who lived down the street. They had two small children. The mom refused to work, even though they could barely afford to live - they used to ask neighbors for money even. The small children watched TV all day in one room while mom watched TV in another. These children would have been better off in daycare. The family finally just couldn't afford to live in this neighborhood anymore. The couple got divorced and mom can not get custody because she still won't get a job. So now these kids who could have Mommy every day only have her every other weekend.

 

Why don't you think it is appropriate for a woman to take her child to work? How is this any different than working at home? I'm not talking about taking the child to the steel mill or to work in a restaurant.

 

Except why should the workplace make these accomodations? It was not their choice for you to have children. I still think you should stay home and raise em, or have a career. Not expect the world to cater to you.

Now, I will say that there are certain occupations where a woman needs to seriously think. My dd has medicine in her list of possibilities. Instead of hearing it from me, I have had her talk to female doctors about how difficult it is to have a family and the special challenges a woman has to face in this profession.

 

But- my daughter could also take over the family accounting business one day. She would be able to bring her baby to the office. She would be able to line up her schedule in order to pick her child up from school, etc.

 

Because if she is working, she is not watching the kids.

When mom is gardening, washing, cleaning, cooking, doing all the household chores, she is also not watching the kids.

 

I'd love to hear your opinion of dads who work so much they only see their children for just a few hours each week.

 

Can't we all have a beer and get along?

No kidding! Coffee works too! :D

[HRAAB]

Of course,

 

It means that I let him be who he is without browbeating him or competing with him. I don't make him feel like a moron every chance I get. I respect him, validate him and appreciate him.

 

I thought it would go w/o saying but he reciprocates everything I put out.

 

That's my mil, dear woman that she is. :glare: Never misses a beat to point out how stupid her husband is (or men in general), never does anything right, never says anything right all the while making sure you know she is smarter and the brains in the family. And you know what? She hates feminists, too. Can't stand them. She hates everything to do with feminism.

 

I'm so sorry to see this division among women. I think many women who stay home have been attacked for that choice. That is wrong. So they feel the need to defend themselves. On the other hand, in the groups I've been a part of in the past, if a woman chose to work, even if it was based on need, she would have been ripped up one side and down the other. I've seen much nastiness from women I know directed towards women who work. I've personally seen homeschooling moms criticized and talked about behind their backs because they continued to work part time. During the election last year on a couple message boards I visit, Sarah Palin got ripped apart for working. It goes both ways. There are fanatics on both sides.

 

Being a feminist means I support your choice to stay home as much as I support my friend who chose to continue working as a dentist after the birth of each of her children. It means I respect and honor my husband as a person, as he respects and honors me as a person. It means that if I go back into the workforce, that I should be treated fairly and with respect from both women and men. I'm not going to respect a woman who tears apart men anymore than I'm going to respect a man who demeans women.

 

Janet