TWTM 3rd edition - IEW no longer recommended?

[jennthmg]

My girl friend just gave me a copy of the third edition of TWTM!! I'm transfering all my notes from my previous copy to my new copy and found that on page 482 (in the 2nd ed.) which is 486 (in 3rd ed.) she no longer recommends IEW. Did she say anything about it at recent conventions or is there any info out there as to why?

[Emmy]

Does it say she no longer recommends it or is IEW simply not mentioned....just curious!

[Nicole M]

Where did your friend get that book?! I thought it hadn't been released yet...

[hollyhillhomeschool]

Not regarding SWB, because I have not seen her recent reviews of IEW. I have heard college board examiners disparagingly talking about IEW, because it is "format" writing, which reduces creativity and often can make writing appear programmatic instead of being an authentic form of communication, if that makes sense. I took this feedback and listened, despite the fact that I had fully embraced IEW at the time with my own kids and teaching some others as well. I don't necessarily disagree with the assessment, but IEW played an important role in my ds and dd schooling. Pudewa made writing fun and engaging...something I had dreams that I could do, but it never happened. Likewise, the process of writing took a lot of the pain out during those first few years, and made my ds and dd much more comfortable with writing. Now both love it. DS is considering journalism and writes creatively for fun. I have moved away from the programmatic aspects and legalism of IEW as we progress to high school. However, we still say, "Let's do some IEW stuff to this paper." And the kids know what that means....stylistic dress-ups here and there, check openers, etc.

 

I am very interested in knowing what SWB says....so do let us know! Thanks!:bigear:

[Sarah CB]

Not regarding SWB, because I have not seen her recent reviews of IEW. I have heard college board examiners disparagingly talking about IEW, because it is "format" writing, which reduces creativity and often can make writing appear programmatic instead of being an authentic form of communication, if that makes sense. I took this feedback and listened, despite the fact that I had fully embraced IEW at the time with my own kids and teaching some others as well. I don't necessarily disagree with the assessment, but IEW played an important role in my ds and dd schooling. Pudewa made writing fun and engaging...something I had dreams that I could do, but it never happened. Likewise, the process of writing took a lot of the pain out during those first few years, and made my ds and dd much more comfortable with writing. Now both love it. DS is considering journalism and writes creatively for fun. I have moved away from the programmatic aspects and legalism of IEW as we progress to high school. However, we still say, "Let's do some IEW stuff to this paper." And the kids know what that means....stylistic dress-ups here and there, check openers, etc.

 

I am very interested in knowing what SWB says....so do let us know! Thanks!:bigear:

 

I haven't seen the 3rd edition yet, but this is the same reason I decided against IEW. One of the advantages I've experienced with Classical Writing is the sentence shuffle where you play around with the sentence (changing the form of the sentence, subbing in synonyms, condensing it, expanding it, etc.) and then analyze how your changes have impacted the author's emphasis. I love that it gets kids thinking about how their choice of words changes the point they're trying to emphasize. There's a lot of playing around with each sentence to see how to make it say exactly what you want to say and I think that's lacking with IEW. Instead, you're working off a check-list and making sure you've covered everything without a lot of analysis of exactly how each of those dress-ups or sentence openers impact the meaning or the emphasis of your sentence.

[JudoMom]

Where did your friend get that book?! I thought it hadn't been released yet...

 

SWB had copies at the recent convention (Cincy?). I'm not jealous at all.

[eclecticmom]

considered "format" writing? We went through level 3 and it was very cookie cutter. I haven't seen the later levels. So what are the best recommendations? Writing Strands and ...?

[Sarah CB]

SWB had copies at the recent convention (Cincy?). I'm not jealous at all.

 

*cough* Yeah, I'm not jealous either. :glare:

[Kathie in VA]

I haven't seen the 3rd edition yet, but this is the same reason I decided against IEW. One of the advantages I've experienced with Classical Writing is the sentence shuffle where you play around with the sentence (changing the form of the sentence, subbing in synonyms, condensing it, expanding it, etc.) and then analyze how your changes have impacted the author's emphasis. I love that it gets kids thinking about how their choice of words changes the point they're trying to emphasize. There's a lot of playing around with each sentence to see how to make it say exactly what you want to say and I think that's lacking with IEW. Instead, you're working off a check-list and making sure you've covered everything without a lot of analysis of exactly how each of those dress-ups or sentence openers impact the meaning or the emphasis of your sentence.

 

Ditto! I love the fact that CW analyses grammar and shows how & why to use it. I'm also looking forward to using CW to apply our logic lessons to their writing lessons... and then their rhetoric lessons.

 

SWB had copies at the recent convention (Cincy?). I'm not jealous at all.

 

Ditto again! OOOhhhh, I've love a copy of that book :tongue_smilie: ... but .. it's okay ... I can wait ... :lurk5: :chillpill::chillpill:

 

 

My guess is that SWB is recommending her new writing book. The workbooks for all the levels might not be out yet but I think the main book has guidlines for all levels ( . . . and the upper levels make use of the progymnasmata :D)

[Holly IN]

In her conference talk, she says that IEW is good for structure but NOT style. She says if you want to use IEW the just use the structure not style. She says the reason is because all the papers of IEW students are same in style which leads the teachers to believe plagarism is involved in the paper.

 

Holly

[asta]

In her conference talk, she says that IEW is good for structure but NOT style. She says if you want to use IEW the just use the structure not style. She says the reason is because all the papers of IEW students are same in style which leads the teachers to believe plagarism is involved in the paper.

 

Holly

 

I would concur with this. We take the formatting and ditch the "dress ups"; IOW, kiddo needs the structure - the framework, if you will - but recognizes that he must have himself in what he writes, not pre-determined bits.

 

I tend to think that IEW works very well for a certain type of learner, and not well at all for other types. Kiddo is Aspie (so am I), and having things laid out clearly is extremely important. He has been able to take the "structure" and move on to creative writing. He was unable to do that prior to IEW.

 

 

asta

[LNC]

Susan's book Writing with Ease: Strong Fundamentals covers years 1-4 in detail. It gives a broad overview of where she is heading with her program, but she will release 2 more hardcover books for the dialectic and rhetoric stages of her Complete Writer program.

 

I hope to use them before my young children graduate, but we'll see!

[momof2boys]

What does she reccomend in the new edition of TWTM?

thanks,

gloria

[MIch elle]

I tend to think that IEW works very well for a certain type of learner, and not well at all for other types.

 

asta

 

:iagree:

 

With both my boys IEW has been a God send!! They have no learning disabilities and yet IEW was exactly what they needed to START learning to write.

 

My 9th grader no longer uses IEW for writing his high school papers, but he remembers and applies the basic principles of IEW.

 

IEW is so popular that the TWTM endorsement is not needed. Word of mouth based, on the success of peoples' dc, is always what sold the product.

[Sumiller]

:iagree:

 

With both my boys IEW has been a God send!! They have no learning disabilities and yet IEW was exactly what they needed to START learning to write.

 

My 9th grader no longer uses IEW for writing his high school papers, but he remembers and applies the basic principles of IEW.

 

IEW is so popular that the TWTM endorsement is not needed. Word of mouth based, on the success of peoples' dc, is always what sold the product.

 

:iagree:

 

My dc have been doing IEW for a couple years now and as a previous poster said, it ignited the desire to write because it took away the "I don't know what to write" frustration they were feeling with other programs. That being said, I am switching to Classical Writing for next year because I believe that although they have gotten much out of IEW, I want less "format" writing and more analyzing.

[Tammyla]

Now...I'm longing to compare the new edition with my first and second ones.

[jennthmg]

Yes, my girlfriend brought me home a present from Cinci -- a SIGNED copy of the 3rd ed. It isn't even released on Amazon, yet. I was jealous of myself. I'd have NEVER splurged to get the 3rd when I had the 2nd, but I'm sooo excited (I feel like a celebrity that gets special perks).

 

IEW is just not mentioned anywhere. She even has an appendix of "Apendix 5 PREVIOUS RECOMMENDATIONS" and IEW isn't mentioned.

 

 

On page 486 (3rd ed.) under WRITING title she recommends :

 

Strunk, William, and E.B. White. The Elements of Style. 4th ed.

 

Writing Strands.

Writing Strands 7.

Writing Strands Exposition.

Evaluating Writing.

[ciyates]

IEW has turned a subject that for us used to cause tears and fights into a subject that he truly enjoys. The progression in his writing is amazing. However that doesn't mean we won't move on to something else later.

[Frontier Mom]

Yes, my girlfriend brought me home a present from Cinci -- a SIGNED copy of the 3rd ed. It isn't even released on Amazon, yet. I was jealous of myself. I'd have NEVER splurged to get the 3rd when I had the 2nd, but I'm sooo excited (I feel like a celebrity that gets special perks).

 

IEW is just not mentioned anywhere. She even has an appendix of "Apendix 5 PREVIOUS RECOMMENDATIONS" and IEW isn't mentioned.

 

 

On page 486 (3rd ed.) under WRITING title she recommends :

 

Strunk, William, and E.B. White. The Elements of Style. 4th ed.

 

Writing Strands.

Writing Strands 7.

Writing Strands Exposition.

Evaluating Writing.

 

Can one start at 7 if you haven't used this program before?

[LatinTea]

We also used IEW in the younger years to help my son get started with his writing. He took to it readily. In the high school years though, he came to realize that the student examples, especially in the Continuation Course from IEW, were sorely lacking in originality and just didn't have that special something. They all sounded alike. And then on one of those CDs, Mr. Pudewa actually saying that he didn't even like to write....that really got me thinking.

 

I never stressed counting up your dress-ups, labeling them, etc. That just bugged me. We took some of it and left the rest. With my dd, I am going to try a more natural approach incorporating some of IEWs ideas, but letting her style shine through.

 

BTW, my ds writes very well. I thank IEW for getting him going, but using a balanced approach, not strictly adhering to a rigid checklist, is what really made the difference.

 

Margo

[DarlaS]

I thank IEW for getting him going, but using a balanced approach, not strictly adhering to a rigid checklist, is what really made the difference.

 

I am just beginning to use the program, and it has my 12 yo excited about writing. It's good enough for me just because of that.

 

I intend to explain the dress-ups as possible ways to make sentences more interesting and varied without requiring a certain number etc. As long as he understand why they're taught, what they are and can locate them I'll be pleased. He's already a decent writer though as he was just naturally doing many of them anyway.

[Oakblossoms]

Can one start at 7 if you haven't used this program before?

 

I could be wrong. But, I think if you have an older child you should start on level 4. It's isn't a grade level curriculum.

 

But, here is an oh so helpful chart from the source:

http://www.writingstrands.com/faq.asp#levels

[Frontier Mom]

Funny, I looked at this and thought, "Wow that name and the cover look soooo familiar." Well, guess what, after some digging and searching I found that I already have Level 2 & 3. Yeah, I'm $40 richer today!!! LOL.

[Oakblossoms]

:lol:

[mjbucks1]

I was at the Cincy convention and went to two of SWB talks. I also purchased CDs of her sessions. For grades 5-8 she stressed outlining and rewriting, as well as narrative compositions (I believe she goes into more detail in her book). In high school she recommended the following books:

Rulebook for Arguements, Composition in the Classical Tradition, New Oxford Guide to Writing, and Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student. She also recommended the study of rhetoric using IEW (again, not the style component) or Memoria Press.

[Linda (Australia)]

I'm very disappointed to hear this. IEW has been an absolute God-send, not only for my oldest daughter who was unable to string a sentence together, but also for my son who loved to write, but needed more ideas as to how to make his writing more interesting.

 

If you're stuggling with the 'whys' of IEW, I'd highly recommend purchasing the 'Teaching Writing, Structure and Style Overview' DVD, a new publication from IEW.

 

In it, Andrew explains 'why' so much time is spent on not only the structure, but the style as well. It is so the stylistic techniques reach a point where they become easy to the child. Later, they can then chose to use these in each paragraph, or not - but they have the skills then to be able to whenever it is appropriate.

 

He likens it to learning your scales and appegios when learning a musical instrument - it's not so you can get up on stage and perform these, but so more difficult pieces can be played and learned with greater ease. Yes, a the early and middle stages of using IEW the child's writing can come over as being very structured, but as they grow, become used to the styles, etc., their writing takes off, and they become much, much better writers because of knowing all the tricks and the stylistic techniques.

[Kathy in MD]

I'm very disappointed to hear this. IEW has been an absolute God-send, not only for my oldest daughter who was unable to string a sentence together, but also for my son who loved to write, but needed more ideas as to how to make his writing more interesting.

 

If you're stuggling with the 'whys' of IEW, I'd highly recommend purchasing the 'Teaching Writing, Structure and Style Overview' DVD, a new publication from IEW.

 

In it, Andrew explains 'why' so much time is spent on not only the structure, but the style as well. It is so the stylistic techniques reach a point where they become easy to the child. Later, they can then chose to use these in each paragraph, or not - but they have the skills then to be able to whenever it is appropriate.

 

He likens it to learning your scales and appegios when learning a musical instrument - it's not so you can get up on stage and perform these, but so more difficult pieces can be played and learned with greater ease. Yes, a the early and middle stages of using IEW the child's writing can come over as being very structured, but as they grow, become used to the styles, etc., their writing takes off, and they become much, much better writers because of knowing all the tricks and the stylistic techniques.

 

I can see both sides of the issue. I think that the rigid style problems that so many see could be due to many problems:

 

1) The student started IEW late and is still practicing using the stylistic techniques taught. The student just needs more writing maturity.

 

2) The teacher never loosened the stylistic requirements, always requiring 1 -ly opener, 1 vss, 1 ......etc.

 

3) The student, by nature, is rigid and sticks too much to the rules and things learned early. This is what I refer to as the (said in a shakey, aged voice while a shaking hand grasps a cane) "But that's not how my grandpappy did it" syndrome.

 

I've started IEW late, but I'm adjusting the style requirements to better match ds's knowledge and make it less rigid. For example, I substitute any adverb for the more restrictive -ly word. I let ds use an appositive phrase in addition to the who/why phrase. And I don't require an example of each stylistic technique in each paragraph. Also, ds does a lot of other writing where the stylistic techniques aren't even mentioned, but he must follow the organization. Later on I'll even loosen that. Hopefully this way I'll avoid the formulistic writing so many object to.

[4wildberrys]

I'm very disappointed to hear this. IEW has been an absolute God-send, not only for my oldest daughter who was unable to string a sentence together, but also for my son who loved to write, but needed more ideas as to how to make his writing more interesting.

 

If you're stuggling with the 'whys' of IEW, I'd highly recommend purchasing the 'Teaching Writing, Structure and Style Overview' DVD, a new publication from IEW.

 

In it, Andrew explains 'why' so much time is spent on not only the structure, but the style as well. It is so the stylistic techniques reach a point where they become easy to the child. Later, they can then chose to use these in each paragraph, or not - but they have the skills then to be able to whenever it is appropriate.

 

He likens it to learning your scales and appegios when learning a musical instrument - it's not so you can get up on stage and perform these, but so more difficult pieces can be played and learned with greater ease. Yes, a the early and middle stages of using IEW the child's writing can come over as being very structured, but as they grow, become used to the styles, etc., their writing takes off, and they become much, much better writers because of knowing all the tricks and the stylistic techniques.

 

I agree!

 

And wouldn't SWB not recommending IEW anymore be because she is putting out her own writing programs? :glare: IEW still seems to be pretty much #1 in popularity----and ease of use. IEW has been a Godsend to us too! It seems like now that format type writing has become so popular because it is easy to teach and really gets the kids writing---now all of a sudden it is not acceptable?? :001_huh:

[LunaLee]

This has been a very interesting thread that I've been watching with interest, since I was going to do IEW this fall with the kids. I'm a firm believer in doing whatever works for you kids, and while I've heard some educators say that IEW is too rigid and formulated, there are several school districts that have adopted it for use in schools. So you see you just can't make everyone happy. There is always going to be someone to find fault.

 

I agree! And wouldn't SWB not recommending IEW anymore be because she is putting out her own writing programs? :glare: IEW still seems to be pretty much #1 in popularity----and ease of use. IEW has been a Godsend to us too! It seems like now that format type writing has become so popular because it is easy to teach and really gets the kids writing---now all of a sudden it is not acceptable?? :001_huh:

 

I thinks it's important to remember that SWB, while she has recommended IEW in previous editions of TWTM, wrote this review about the two in 2001:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/J00review.html

 

Although, it was written 7 years ago, I think some of her reasoning is still valid. I don't think she's saying it's unacceptable, I just think in the 10 years since she wrote TWTM there are products now available that might do the job better.

[Rhondabee]

I don't have the book here, but IEW is mentioned in the sample Rhetoric chapter (link on the home page - http://www.welltrainedmind.com). I've been considering switching *to* IEW after reading that. I'm waiting for the whole book to get here before deciding for sure.

[Guest HSmomof 7]

I was also at the "Cincy" convention and picked up a copy of the 3rd Ed. WTM. In the 3rd ed. IEW is #2 on the list of recommended writing programs to use in the middle grades (on page 360 and also for Grammar stage- page 69- also listed pp.382 in the list of resources.) I do not have my old copy, I loaned it out, but I guess IEW was just dropped of the high school list recommendations. Although, in the 3rd ed. writing section -WTM really doesn't recommend a writing program...just refers you to the rhetoric chapter.

For those concerned, Susan says in the 3rd ed. that.... many students, who may not do well with writing strands, "flourish" with the IEW method. Still sounds like a recommendation to me.

I attended some of SWB's sessions and also purchased the CD of the session about high school writing-when she talked about IEW- in connection with their rhetoric program. Overall she recommends a series of 4 books for Rhetoric/writing, and then listed several choices for those overwhelmed by this "self study approach". IEW Classical Rhetoric was one of those programs. She said it was "very useful", but expensive and a bit time consuming. She then discussed the style techniques of IEW. She said they "rubbed her the wrong way". She stated that she has told this to Andrew Pudewa. - No secret to him. But she still recommended IEW among the choices and added that if you use IEW (speaking of the Rhetoric program specifically-but I think generally meant) that it would be great if you could just do the structure, and added it would make her "happier" if you ignored the style portion all together. (Then she added that she hates recommending a program and then telling people to only use half of it). So, it was recommended, but with pros and cons. Still, this was no different than any of the other programs she recommended. All had pros and cons. I also add that I have only used IEW for one year...so I am no expert on IEW, but I know my kids look forward to doing it. Still, with all the comments, I think it wise to vary what programs I use.

Jean- Kids- 17, 15, 13, 11, 9, 7, 2

Edited April 29, 2009 by HSmomof 7