Has anyone read The China Study

[Danestress]

http://www.amazon.com/China-Study-Comprehensive-Nutrition-Implications/dp/1932100660/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240265442&sr=8-1

 

ANd did it change the way you think about food and eat? Any comments or reviews?

[Quiver0f10]

I enjoyed it and while I was already eating a vegan diet it did help reaffirm my descision to not eat animal products. I also loved the book " Mad Cowboy" and that sealed it for me LOL.

[Danestress]

that you were a vegan.

 

I've got the book on reserve at the library, and my number should be coming up soon. I am actually a heavy eater of dairy products. My friend said not to read it unless I am willing to quit, lol.

[Sweetpeach]

Dr. Fuhrman refers to this study in Eat to Live . . . and I can promise you ETL fundamentally changed how I think about food.

[Mamagistra]

I haven't yet read The China Study but I can recommend another book that I found well-researched: Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes. And if you love your dairy, check out Real Food by Nina Planck. Both these and Michael Pollan's books reaffirmed my choice to remain omnivorous. :001_smile:

[eternalknot]

The China Study (and Eat To Live) both were already pretty reflective of my existing diet, ... but both were very good reads and definitely thought-provoking any how. Your friend's comment is funny, because so many of my friends who originally scoffed at my veg*nism (I grew up veg*n for religious reasons) were profoundly influenced by the China Study book. None of them completely gave up their preferred foods and diet, but they definitely took inventory and changed some dietary habits for the better (healthier).

 

It's a great book, in large part because of the research and researchers behind the study. I consider it a must-read for any one who is looking to lose weight or to address underlying physical problems.

[EthiopianFood]

Does anyone know how valid this study was? How much does it apply to a Western lifestyle? I am especially interested in the theory that calcium isn't required in such large amounts. I have wondered if people in China who consumed significantly less calcium, yet had much lower rates of osteoporosis, than those in Western cultures, can account for this difference in health because they engage in weight-bearing activities much more than the typical American. Without this, we DO need the 1000 mg recommended.

 

That was a run-on sentence, but I am tired and just trying to get my thought out before I go to bed. :D

[Laura Corin]

I am especially interested in the theory that calcium isn't required in such large amounts. I have wondered if people in China who consumed significantly less calcium, yet had much lower rates of osteoporosis, than those in Western cultures, can account for this difference in health because they engage in weight-bearing activities much more than the typical American.

 

The young woman who worked as my housekeeper in China talked about her childhood walking miles to school and back two or three times a day (back for lunch and supper, then to the school again for 'homework'). At weekends she followed the buffalo as they foraged for grazing. As an adult, before she left home, she was walking constantly, irrigating the fields by hand and gathering crops home. Despite still being fit, and only just thirty, she says that she can't carry the massive loads that her farmer mother takes every day on her back.

 

So if the study concluded based on a peasant lifestyle that not much calcium was needed (I haven't read the book) I would be very skeptical.

 

Regards

 

Laura

[Karen sn]

The China Study (and Eat To Live) both were already pretty reflective of my existing diet, ... but both were very good reads and definitely thought-provoking any how. Your friend's comment is funny, because so many of my friends who originally scoffed at my veg*nism (I grew up veg*n for religious reasons) were profoundly influenced by the China Study book. None of them completely gave up their preferred foods and diet, but they definitely took inventory and changed some dietary habits for the better (healthier).

 

It's a great book, in large part because of the research and researchers behind the study. I consider it a must-read for any one who is looking to lose weight or to address underlying physical problems.

 

What's with the *?

[Karen sn]

Does anyone know how valid this study was? How much does it apply to a Western lifestyle? I am especially interested in the theory that calcium isn't required in such large amounts. I have wondered if people in China who consumed significantly less calcium, yet had much lower rates of osteoporosis, than those in Western cultures, can account for this difference in health because they engage in weight-bearing activities much more than the typical American. Without this, we DO need the 1000 mg recommended.

 

That was a run-on sentence, but I am tired and just trying to get my thought out before I go to bed. :D

 

Good point.

Also wanted to let you know that osteoperosis is more a sign of protein excess than calcium deficiency. And the protein in milk actually leaches calcium from the body.

[Rosie_0801]

What's with the *?

 

To mean either vegetarianism or veganism.

 

And yes, the China Study did set us on a path to veganism. We now consider animal products to be junk food. Stuff we know isn't good for us, but we're gonna eat sometimes anyway. Dh buys a litre of milk each week for his coffee because he doesn't like it with any other milk substitute (not that he's tried soy because we don't eat unfermented soy) and he won't give up the coffee! After reading various other things, I'm now thinking that small amounts of unpasteurised cheese made from pasture fed animal milk would contribute enough goodies to balance out the baddies, but I don't actually have access to such produce. I'm now thinking that small but regular consumption of whey based fermented foods such as the recipes in Nourishing Traditions might be the way to go. I'd rather not use synthetic supplements and while there is some B12 in seaweed, we can only eat so much of the stuff.

 

RaeAnne: What did you mean when asking about how this book relates to a Western lifestyle? Just the exercise factor? The author grew up on an American cattle ranch, if that helps...

 

Rosie

Edited April 21, 2009 by Rosie_0801

[Quiver0f10]

Good point.

Also wanted to let you know that osteoperosis is more a sign of protein excess than calcium deficiency. And the protein in milk actually leaches calcium from the body.

 

That was one point he made and also that you can get calcium from other, non-dairy sources such as leafy greens and such, caclium fortified OJ etc. You don't have to drink milk :D

[Mamagistra]

Also wanted to let you know that osteoperosis is more a sign of protein excess than calcium deficiency.

 

I am curious to know the rates of osteoporosis among people groups in the far north and others who rely on high protein diets. Off to Google...

 

And the protein in milk actually leaches calcium from the body.

 

I am unfamiliar with that link, however, I'm betting that factory milk (grain-fed, pasteurized, homogenized, and otherwise tampered with) is the culprit there.

[Rosie_0801]

I am curious to know the rates of osteoporosis among people groups in the far north and others who rely on high protein diets. Off to Google...

 

The Jungle Effect would probably be of interest to you. My interpretation is that those traditional people with high animal protein diets are/were eating excellent quality animal products, where we don't have access to anything even close to that good. So we only get the negatives without the positives.

 

Rosie

[Mamagistra]

The Jungle Effect would probably be of interest to you. My interpretation is that those traditional people with high animal protein diets are/were eating excellent quality animal products, where we don't have access to anything even close to that good. So we only get the negatives without the positives.

 

Rosie

 

Thanks for the recommendation! :001_smile: It's in my cart now.

 

I agree with quality being a factor. For my family, we have definitely seen improved health by switching to the highest quality meat, poultry, eggs, fish, and dairy. Most all that we eat is local, raised or caught as it was meant to be, and untampered. It is delicious and so very satisfying.

[momto4greatkids]

Another great read along these lines is Animal, Vegetable, Miracle. Thoroughly enjoyable.

[Penelope]

The China Study did affect my eating. I already ate almost no meat and some fish, but I cut fish even further. I also cut dairy further down to cheese once in a while, and have cut eggs way down.

 

I do have some questions about the book. I wish it was possible to read this study online, because the book gave very little info. on it. For instance, there are some cancers which are higher in Asian countries compared with Western, such as stomach cancer, and he didn't address that.

 

I have questions about seafood and its omega 3 FAs being shown to be important for health. These would be extremely limited in a vegan diet.

 

And then I have questions about his conclusion being veganism. I think he argued well for a sizable reduction in animal products in the diet, but I don't think he can conclude that the optimal diet is zero foods of animal origin, at least from what he presented in the book. Even in his huge study, the villagers eating the least amount of animal foods weren't vegan, as far as I could tell ftom what he communicated.

 

Then there are the questions about other factors in their lifestyle which could be just as important as diet: physical activity, family networks and social support being a few. Like the women in my family ancestry who lived disease free into their 90's while consuming milk and meat every day, but did vigorous work and walked a LOT every day of their lives from childhood on.

[Doran]

And then I have questions about his conclusion being veganism. I think he argued well for a sizable reduction in animal products in the diet, but I don't think he can conclude that the optimal diet is zero foods of animal origin, at least from what he presented in the book. Even in his huge study, the villagers eating the least amount of animal foods weren't vegan, as far as I could tell ftom what he communicated.

 

Then there are the questions about other factors in their lifestyle which could be just as important as diet: physical activity, family networks and social support being a few. Like the women in my family ancestry who lived disease free into their 90's while consuming milk and meat every day, but did vigorous work and walked a LOT every day of their lives from childhood on.

 

 

I must preface by saying that I have NOT read the book, so my response is slightly inappropriate given the original question. However, I'm skeptical of most "diet plans" which make blanket statements as if what applies to one person or population would automatically apply to all of them. I don't believe that diets free from animal proteins are *necessarily* healthier for everyone, and I would go so far as to advocate for the health *benefits* of omnivorous diets which include animal proteins from animals raised in environments which most closely mimic their natural instincts (diet, range, etc.).

 

That said, watching a show like this (Frontline: Poisoned Waters) and living on one of the many tributaries of the Chesapeake Bay, does leave me contemplating vegetarianism more carefully. :confused:

[abbeyej]

>>>And then I have questions about his conclusion being veganism. I think he argued well for a sizable reduction in animal products in the diet, but I don't think he can conclude that the optimal diet is zero foods of animal origin, at least from what he presented in the book. Even in his huge study, the villagers eating the least amount of animal foods weren't vegan, as far as I could tell ftom what he communicated.<<<

 

This is an interesting point in Eat to Live as well -- that there aren't studies that support "pure" veganism as being advantageous health-wise over *near* veganism (in terms of percentages of various foods consumed). So an omnivore who eats a vegan diet *most* of the time should be just as healthy as someone who is ideologically vegan and makes no exceptions to that diet ever.

[Danestress]

This is an interesting point in Eat to Live as well -- that there aren't studies that support "pure" veganism as being advantageous health-wise over *near* veganism (in terms of percentages of various foods consumed). So an omnivore who eats a vegan diet *most* of the time should be just as healthy as someone who is ideologically vegan and makes no exceptions to that diet ever.

 

But as someone who does eat meat and milk products, this does make me wonder ..... Is it like drinking in pregnancy? There are no studies that show that absolutely no alcohol is healthier than just the occasional drink during pregnancy, and yet many women, knowing that a great deal of alcohol is associated with problems in pregnancy, conclude that none is the safest bet. Perhaps if it's true that excessive animal fat or animal protein is associated with health problems, he concludes that none is a safer bet than some.

 

I'm 46 on the waiting list in the library system, so I guess I will have to wait to find out!

[Rosie_0801]

I have questions about seafood and its omega 3 FAs being shown to be important for health. These would be extremely limited in a vegan diet.

 

Not if you make an effort to include them. It's no more effort to sprinkle flax seeds on your salad than it is to buy fish.

 

And then I have questions about his conclusion being veganism. I think he argued well for a sizable reduction in animal products in the diet, but I don't think he can conclude that the optimal diet is zero foods of animal origin, at least from what he presented in the book. Even in his huge study, the villagers eating the least amount of animal foods weren't vegan, as far as I could tell from what he communicated.

 

 

We're talking about nutritional veganism, not ethical veganism, so it doesn't have to be all or nothing. I figure we will fall short of being 100% vegan because there are nice things like custard tarts in this world. My hubby keeps to the mostly vegan line by keeping the Cretan idea that we should only eat a couple of serves of animal products each week. I keep to it by thinking of animal products as junk food that I indulge in only when I really feel like it. My dad keeps going on about how we should have everything in moderation, but I keep asking him how you know what moderation is and he hasn't managed to answer yet :) I think nearly vegan is best. My life is too short to analyse absolutely everything I eat, but it's too long to contemplate having to live the rest of it without the occasional custard tart :D

 

Rosie

[cillakat]

Not if you make an effort to include them. It's no more effort to sprinkle flax seeds on your salad than it is to buy fish.

 

 

True. Most humans do not efficiently convert short chain polyunsaturates into long chain pu's. An equivalent amout of fish oil and flax oil is in no way nutritionally equivalent in terms of dietary donation of Omega 3's. A gram of fat from cold water fatty fish offers about 10x more LC omega 3. A gram of fat from flax has a signicant amoung of short chain omega 3 it's true.....but by the time the body is done converting it to the form needed in cell membrane stabilization, there is very little.

 

In addition to the issue of challenges converting short chain o-3's to long chain o-3's, many are ineffecient converters of beta carotene to vitamin A.

 

Eye problems, hormone problems, mood stability issues (among other things) will eventually show up in populations not maintaining sufficient tissue saturations of long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids.

 

The vitamin d issue is also significant. It is impossible to get sufficient D from a vegan diet unless one is willing to take D-3 (animal source) or willing to spend time everyday, *in the summer* midday, in the sun, with most skin exposed, to the point just *before* skin turns pink....and the rest of the year still take D-3 supplements.

 

Zinc is another mineral for concern in a vegan diet. I wish I could go on but it's been awhile since I've read the book......for me, it was a frustrating read. I thoroughly agree with his premise that an optimal diet is predominantly produce (75-95%). The body of evidence supporting that is huge. It was unfortunate to see his misuse of said simply because he has an extreme position when it comes to the environmental and ethical issues surrounding the consumption of meat.

 

katherine

[Rosie_0801]

Zinc is another mineral for concern in a vegan diet.

katherine

 

Ah! But you can sprinkle pumpkin seeds on your salads too! We're big into seed sprinkles at our place. It goes on salads, porridge, peanut butter sandwiches, you name it. I'm of the opinion that no one chews their food properly, and have found seeds a good way to make me chew.

 

:)

Rosie

[Blueridge]

My dh read The China Study out loud to me, so we would both hear it. It was very interesting. I did see a quote recently that I also thought was food for thought. Dr. Joel Furhman said, "If there was one food that we could wipe out of the American diet and save as many lives as possible, it would be cheese and other dairy products."

Ginger

[cillakat]

Ah! But you can sprinkle pumpkin seeds on your salads too! We're big into seed sprinkles at our place. It goes on salads, porridge, peanut butter sandwiches, you name it. I'm of the opinion that no one chews their food properly, and have found seeds a good way to make me chew.

 

:)

Rosie

 

 

So so true. However, humans have eaten meat since the beginning of time. This fact colors everything for me. No matter how many nuts and seeds we eat, and no matter how fabulous a vegan diet we eat, we will not match zinc, iron and A levels that our bodies were designed to eat.

 

Having said that, I'm not a fan of a meat or grain based diet but rather a produce based diet with some beans/nuts/seeds and just enough (ideally grassfed) meat and wild fish to round out personal protein/fat/zinc/iron needs. It wouldn't take much....a few ounces of carefully chosen animal products would fit the bill and would carry no nutritional risk.

 

and *having said that*....ethically, I struggle. I was veg/vegan/raw foods for many years and ethically, and environmentally, I am *so* there. I don't want to eat animals. In terms of my health though, I saw the deleterious effects from an extreme vegan diet.....at first it was all light, energy and goodness, but a few years in, the downside became clearly apparent.

 

K

 

K

[Rosie_0801]

In terms of my health though, I saw the deleterious effects from an extreme vegan diet.....at first it was all light, energy and goodness, but a few years in, the downside became clearly apparent.

K

 

Yeah, when I was doing my research, it was the "extreme" part that seemed to lead to problems. I figure if I really want some animal product I should just have it and be done with it. Then look at my diet to see where my vitamin intake has been sliding. I do think a small amount of animal has a worthwhile place in our diets, but am still not really sure how. After reading Nourishing Traditions I think fermented milk products like their whey based recipes might be the way to go. I'd be interested in anyone else's opinion on that. Biochemistry makes my brain glaze over, but I really want to understand it! Would the benefits of good quality fermented milk products outweigh the negatives?

 

Rosie

[Quiver0f10]

So so true. However, humans have eaten meat since the beginning of time. This fact colors everything for me. No matter how many nuts and seeds we eat, and no matter how fabulous a vegan diet we eat, we will not match zinc, iron and A levels that our bodies were designed to eat.

 

Having said that, I'm not a fan of a meat or grain based diet but rather a produce based diet with some beans/nuts/seeds and just enough (ideally grassfed) meat and wild fish to round out personal protein/fat/zinc/iron needs. It wouldn't take much....a few ounces of carefully chosen animal products would fit the bill and would carry no nutritional risk.

 

and *having said that*....ethically, I struggle. I was veg/vegan/raw foods for many years and ethically, and environmentally, I am *so* there. I don't want to eat animals. In terms of my health though, I saw the deleterious effects from an extreme vegan diet.....at first it was all light, energy and goodness, but a few years in, the downside became clearly apparent.

 

K

 

K

 

Warning CC.....

 

 

I am not an ethical vegan nor a bible scholar, but man did not eat meat until after the fall. I believe God told Noah to eat meat, but before that all the seeds of the earth were for their meat. I can't answer the B-12 thing and how we need it and why it isn't in plants, but I just don't believe we were created to eat meat.

 

Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

 

Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [i have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so.

 

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons.....

 

Gen 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

 

Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Edited April 25, 2009 by Quiver0f10

[DawnM]

Ah, have you been reading the Halleluijah Diet? This is what he says over and over again.

 

And, :iagree:

 

Dawn

 

Warning CC.....

 

 

I am not an ethical vegan nor a bible scholar, but man did not eat meat until after the fall. I believe God told Noah to eat meat, but before that all the seeds of the earth were for their meat. I can't answer the B-12 thing and how we need it and why it isn't in plants, but I just don't believe we were created to eat meat.

 

Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

 

Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [i have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so.

 

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons.....

 

Gen 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

 

Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Edited June 12, 2009 by DawnM

[DawnM]

I just pulled out my China Study again and will go through it again. I only glanced last time, when I was already eating mostly raw foods anyway.

 

I recently have gone back to some meat and dairy and even DH made a comment today on how I seem more lethargic and I feel "weighted." Not sure I can describe it because I haven't gained more weight, but I just feel heavier.

 

So, I am headed back to a Vegan type diet with very limited meats and no processed. Hoping to get some energy back and maybe to lose some weight in the process.

 

Dawn

[cillakat]

Ah, have you been reading the Halleluijah Diet? This is what he says over and over again.

 

And, :iagree:

 

Dawn

 

I followed it for several years. I remember the light energetic feeling of the early years. But most strongly emblazoned in my mind is that it was during that time that I started having upper respiratory infections, joint problems, then my first bout of pneumonia, an initial onset of anxiety which would eventually evolve into something so dark and frightening it's uncomfortable to look back at it today.

 

Knowing what I know now about nutrition, it was clear that I wasn't getting enough D (not a nutritional problem per se), preformed A, calcium, magnesium, zinc, iron, b6 (even though i worked on those macros in my diet). Over time, it took it's toll. My skin though was great:) All of those antioxidants and the low low inflammation diet? Did wonders on the surface. LOL.

 

Putting some meat back in my diet was supremely helpful (as was finally getting sufficient D, calcium - not from dairy ftmp, magnesium and other nutrients). For years I ate a lot of meat, now it's definitely not even a daily thing, but a thing needed regularly nonetheless.

 

Right now, my diet is produce dominated and it feels wonderful - optimal really. Lots of berries, fruit, a large salad daily....beans with the salad usually....a little junk to make it fun:) But I do need animal protein a few times per week. A few eggs a week have been helpful as well for the choline and phospholipids - key factors in cell membrane stability and in mental function in a variety of other ways as well.

 

K

[Mamagistra]

Dr. Joel Furhman said, "If there was one food that we could wipe out of the American diet and save as many lives as possible, it would be cheese and other dairy products."

 

 

:lol: Well, he just lost any amount of credibility that he ever had with me. That's poppycock! I'm betting that the one most life-saving food Americans could eliminate might actually be corn. Or perhaps I should say "corn" for much of it is modified most unnaturally.

 

(Sorry, Blueridge...not pickin' on you, but the good doctor's diet might be affecting his brain.) ;)

[DawnM]

On second thought....I have gained weight these last couple of months. Almost 10 pounds. UGH! Don't know why I didn't think of the correlation last night.

 

Some of that may not be related to meat and dairy, but just to eating non-whole grain breads, etc....again.

 

Dawn

 

I just pulled out my China Study again and will go through it again. I only glanced last time, when I was already eating mostly raw foods anyway.

 

I recently have gone back to some meat and dairy and even DH made a comment today on how I seem more lethargic and I feel "weighted." Not sure I can describe it because I haven't gained more weight, but I just feel heavier.

 

So, I am headed back to a Vegan type diet with very limited meats and no processed. Hoping to get some energy back and maybe to lose some weight in the process.

 

Dawn

[Peela]

I am not convinced any one way on the whole diet issue. I was vegetarian for many years. My husband still is. But I dont feel good on a vegetarian diet and haven't done since I was pregnant.

I have a theory that we all tend to get toxic and need a good cleanse every now and then. In traditional cultures, and most ate some animal products whether meat or dairy or insects, there would often be a yearly period at the end of winter where food would be scarce. Fasting is a part of many cultures- whether by necessity or for spiritual reasons. At any rate, I think it might be normal to have a break from animal products and even most food and let our bodies have a break. In our culture, we eat too much and we rarely allow our digestive system to rest for more than overnight. We overload.

So I think that the reason why many people feel better on vegan and vegetarian diets for a while is that their systems get to lighten up, detoxify, and it feels good. But after a few years, the nutritional deficiencies start to show themselves. Not for everyone, but for many, many people. That's when you go from feeling good, to feeling run down, depleted, exhausted, and you just want to start eating meat and dairy again because you crave certian nutrients.

I think there are many factors to consider- where you live (how much sunlight you get on your skin, how local and fresh is your food, the temperature), how much fresh food you eat, your allergies known and unknown, the toxins in the food chain and the environment, how much stress you are under, how fresh your air is, and a huge factor is the genetics of your body.

I do think its probably possible to eat really well and live well without meat for many people- but I am not convinced that no animal products is how we were designed. According to Nourishing Traditions and Western Price, all the healthy native cultures he studied had SOME animal products of some sort in their diet- yet their diets varied widely from almost vegetarian to almost all meat.

I think we are very adaptable, but I don't like any diet theories anymore that say this is how we should all eat- because history shows that all sorts of diets are possible. But what if your culture- like the Chinese- lived on a certain diet healthily for thousands of years. Does that mean that I- with north western Europe heritage- can suddenly adapt their diet and be healthy? I don't actually know. All I know is it seems to work for them, but what other factors in their life contribute to their health, I don't know, and someone trying to sell me a theory in a book or otherwise, is unlikely to give me the whole picture.

I was a vegetarian for ethical/spiritual reasons and would still prefer to be but I haven't found a way to be healthy and do that- and I am trained in nutrition, diet, and health. So I buy the best quality meat and dairy I can afford. You can't lump it all in together- raw milk is NOT the same food as pasteurised milk, and a vegetarian diet high in processed foods, or GM soy, or sugar, is not healthier than an omnivorous diet high in fresh, local, unsprayed and unprocessed food. Nor does it have less negative impact on the environment.

When I was in naturopathy school, two of my lecturers disagreed strongly with each other over some of these issues- especially milk. One felt it was a nutritious food, the other felt it was poison. I feel a lot depends on your system, your heritage, your individual genetics, your childhood and what allergies you may have developed,whether you were breastfed, and the quality of the food itself. And you may like to take into account whether the cows are living out their lives grazing peacefully under the sky and stars, are loved and cared for, or living in crowded lots as money making machines. I just don't go for one size fits all theories any more.

[Blueridge]

 

(Sorry, Blueridge...not pickin' on you, but the good doctor's diet might be affecting his brain.) ;)

 

:lol: Yes, I thought it was food for thought...for about 5 minutes. Then I went and made a nice piece of cheese toast with my organic Farmer's cheese that we buy in 10 pound rolls. Don't wanna live without the stuff! Sorry Dr. Furhman.