Need logic help for a 5th grader

[magistra]

I've got a 5th grader who has always struggled with math, and with many school subjects, for that matter, because she really lacks the ability to make logical connections between things. Connections that come effortlessly to other kids just don't with her, and I'm often at a loss to explain things to her in any way that will make sense to her. I've been thinking all along it was just a developmental issue, and that she would eventually catch up, but the waiting around approach is just causing intense frustration for both her and I and is ruining our whole school experience. She has no diagnosed learning disabilities, though I think I do need to explore that possibility.

 

In the meantime, have any of you dealt with similar children? What kind of remedial math or logic books or programs would you recommend to help her out? I haven't tried any of the logic curricula out there because my impression is that they just give lots of practice in word problems for kids who already *get* it, such as we have been experiencing in our various math curricula we've tried. Is that a misimpression? Is there something out there that will actually help her brain to make connections?

 

Advice? Recommendations?

 

Thanks!

[Beth in Central TX]

I'm not sure I totally understand your question, but I don't think this is an isse with learning the subject of logic. It sounds like you haven't touched the learning style of your daughter. Not every child learns the same way. I have two totally different learning styles with my oldest boys and my youngest appears to be somewhere in between. The Way They Learn by Cynthia Tobias may be a good start for you: http://www.amazon.com/They-Learn-Cynthia-Ulrich-Tobias/dp/1561794147/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204126446&sr=8-2 I would look into this before I looked into some type of learning disability.

[magistra]

Thanks, Beth. I do think it's beyond learning style, since over our past 5 years we've used such a wide variety of types of curricula and various approaches, and seem to be making no headway. However, looking at this book may be helpful, so I will.

[Beth in Central TX]

Okay, well if you want to we can talk through this some more. Let's start with math. What have you used? What is she struggling with specifically (ie. can't remember math addition facts, subtraction facts, multiplication facts, struggles with division, fractions, etc.)?

 

If you would rather not discuss this on an open forum, I understand. I just wanted to offer more assistance if you are interested since I wasn't clear on your original post.

[magistra]

What she struggles with is not fact memorization, but understanding. For example, yesterday's math lesson asked "how many weeks are in a century"? She knows 100 years in a century, she knows 52 weeks in a year, but she couldn't wrap her brain around how to go about solving this problem. This is one example, out of a gazillion, and it happens in all the various subjects. She cannot figure out how to use known facts to extrapolate other facts. If it were only a math problem, sure, I'd say the problem might be learning style or curriculum. But it seems to be a more basic lack of logic. And BTW, we've tried A Beka, Horizons, Right Start, Miquon, Singapore math. With every one of them she was left bewildered, because all of them assume a basic ability to move from one fact and figure out the next fact based on the first fact. She hates manipulatives of any kind, because she never *gets* what they are trying to show.

 

Does this make sense at all?

 

Thanks for trying to help out!

[OneRoomHomeSchool]

She knows 100 years in a century, she knows 52 weeks in a year, but she couldn't wrap her brain around how to go about solving this problem. This is one example, out of a gazillion, and it happens in all the various subjects. She cannot figure out how to use known facts to extrapolate other facts.

 

Does this make sense at all?

 

 

 

Yes, it does make sense to me. I have a 4th grader who is JUST like this. I have NO answers, but definitely want to see what others say. ;)

[Beth in Central TX]

Yes, it does make sense now. I can identify with you a little. My 5th grader is not as math or logic oriented as his older brother, and at times, he lacks common sense. I asked him your question though, and he was able to process through it out loud and give me an aswer.

 

I'm not sure if I'm going to be much help, but I did a little on-line search and found this:

 

http://www.k8accesscenter.org/training_resources/mathprimaryproblemsolving.asp

 

The 5th paragraph sounded like what you were experiencing with your daughter. I don't have time to read through the whole article, but it looked like they had practical advice for your situation.

 

HTH! Hopefully someone else has more insight for you. If you think it fits your situation better, there's also a Special Needs board that may be of help. I hesitate to give labels, even for my own boys. They are accelerated in some areas, average in some areas, and special needs in other areas. Because of homeschooling I can address their individual needs to each subject, but overall, I think they're just normal kids.

[Michelle T]

What she struggles with is not fact memorization, but understanding. For example, yesterday's math lesson asked "how many weeks are in a century"? She knows 100 years in a century, she knows 52 weeks in a year, but she couldn't wrap her brain around how to go about solving this problem. This is one example, out of a gazillion, and it happens in all the various subjects. She cannot figure out how to use known facts to extrapolate other facts. If it were only a math problem, sure, I'd say the problem might be learning style or curriculum. But it seems to be a more basic lack of logic. And BTW, we've tried A Beka, Horizons, Right Start, Miquon, Singapore math. With every one of them she was left bewildered, because all of them assume a basic ability to move from one fact and figure out the next fact based on the first fact. She hates manipulatives of any kind, because she never *gets* what they are trying to show.

 

Does this make sense at all?

 

Thanks for trying to help out!

 

My DS would have NO idea of how to figure the problem out, even though he also knows the basic information. He is 11.5, and has NO logical thought ability, also has very poor comprehension, poor attention skills, and poor retention of information. Because of this, he struggles academically in every subject. Thank goodness, he does read on grade level, but can easily be confused by a complicated story.

 

My DS also hates manipulatives, because they confuse him even more, plus they distract him. He never makes the connection between hands-on activities in any subject and what we are studying. He has actually requested that we do not do anymore hands-on projects, not even for science.

 

My guy is raging ADHD, and has fairly severe LD's also. Not saying your DD does, but I would definitely look into that if she is 11 and still struggling with very basic thinking skills.

 

Michelle T

[magistra]

For sure she does have some learning issues going on. I've suspected this for a long time, but haven't had her formally tested because she also has severe anxiety and panics in unfamiliar situations (i.e., testing or therapy) so that's why up until now I've taken the wait-and-see approach.

 

I was hoping that in regards to her inability to make logical connections that maybe there was a curriculum out there that directly addressed this that would help us out, but maybe not. I guess after 5 years, I haven't learned the lesson yet that the answer does not always lie in the curriculum!

 

Thanks to everyone who responded, and anyone else who may yet have something to add.

[magistra]

Beth,

 

Thank you for the link above. It looks very interesting; I'll read it later when I have time.

[Carol in Cal.]

What I have found is that for her this is rooted in an intense hatred for math, which is now slowly waning since we switched to Saxon and backed off the level a bit, and an attendent desire to finish problems at a steady, fast rate in order to get them over with.

 

It is almost as if she wants to get rid of the problem too fast to do it properly if it takes more than one or two steps.

 

I remember that when we used Harcourt math, they taught explicit problem solving strategies. Saxon doesn't do this as well, but I sit with her and suggest a routine for problem solving; and every once in a while I make her learn the general case for something rather than a specific formulation. So, for instance, in a problem like your DD's, the first thing I would tell my DD is to write down everything she knows that might have some bearing on the problem. Then I would tell her to write down what she is supposed to figure out. Then I would ask her to think about how to get from one to the other, and let her wrestle with it a little. Only after I'm convinced that she has really thought about this would I say, OK, let's try it this way. And then I would think quickly of one or two more examples to let her practice that approach, and hopefully cement it into her head.

 

The next time something similar comes up I would ask her to think back to similar problems that she has done before. If that didn't work I would walk her through the same process. Then I might add in something more general that she could use for all problems of this type, like laying out all the measurement terms and cancelling through them.

 

I have found that she needs more coaching with this kind of thing, but she does get it after a while.

 

I also added chess, other strategic games in which we talked explicitly about the object of the game and how to achieve that, and Mindbenders.

 

I would say at this point that she is not bad at this, but it has been a slow process to feel that she has 'caught up.' Being 11 1/2 has definately contributed. There is something to that Piaget theory after all!

[Kathy in MD]

I recommend PACE or a Learning Rx center for a good, intensive program. Learning Rx has more tools at their disposal and has a special program geared for logic and reasoning. I don't know how good PACE's logic section is, but I know that the home based program the company used to offer was weak in that area. Both PACE and Learning Rx are owned/developed by the same company. I've linked you to the PACE site for recruiting new providers. http://www.pacetutoring.com/Unfortunately I haven't seen a good site for PACE. To find out your nearest provider, if the site is still being difficult, I'd e-mail Brett. For LearningRx try http://learningrx.com

 

As far as logical thinking books, the best I've seen are the Building Thinking Skills books by Critical Thinking Press. Also their Mathmatical Thinking Skill books are good. These books are the only ones I've seen that actually teach how to think. However for the logically impaired, the parent needs to activily teach the info. Unfortunately these books were not intensive enough for my ds.

[Guest Lorna]

I really like the Key To .. series of books for grasping concepts. The nice thing about them is you can use them easily as a supplement and focus on a topic at a time taking it as far as she is comfortable. You can then leave that subject and go back to your usual programme or try another topic. After she has matured, you can revisit the subject where you left off.

We use it with Singapore when concepts are moving too quickly.

I like how it is self-teaching ;)