History... what would you choose if

[Annabel Lee]

What would you recommend to me for history? Here's a little background and thoughts about what I'm looking for:

 

We're currently using SOTW 1 + the AG. I like the layout and the simplicity, and I don't mind putting books on hold to pick up at the library. I love having both boys (1st & 3rd grades next year) on the same level, otherwise our days would be too long, so we're sticking w/ the 4-yr. cycle for now.

 

OTOH, it does feel like there's got to be more to history, deeper, KWIM? I would like, in addition to our history lessons we do together (the read-aloud part), some independent assigned reading (esp. for my up-and-coming 3rd grader) with questions to go along with it - written preferred (to work on answering in complete sentences and such). He needs to take more responsibility in bothering to pay attention during history and I believe that reading it himself, not just mom reading aloud, and then writing down answers about it will help him in many areas. I don't want *too* heavy of a load for him - I do want him to have time to just be a kid too, but I feel it does need to be stepped up a notch.

 

I intend to use something with a Biblical perspective (non-denominational Christian, or pentecostal/charismatic/evangelical/baptist), but I also really want it to genuinely be accurate history as well.

 

I've looked at MFW, SL and TOG, and still want to look at MOH, WP, TruthQuest, Biblioplan, etc. From all that is out there, what do you think would be the best fit, and why?

 

I'm sorry I keep asking so many questions about this stuff, but I keep looking and looking and I just can't decide! Good thing it's still spring!

[mamaof2andtwins]

Well, if you look at the idea behind the 4 year history cycle, the first time through it merely exposure. The second time through in the logic stage you get into the "Whys?" more because the children are more cognatively ready for it. Finally, by the time they are in high school and in the rhetoric stage they are in deep, reading primary text, evaluating history, and expressing their thoughts and observations about it.

 

You are doing just fine with the ages you are teaching. If you keep on this path, you will see a depth to their learning.

 

The only thing that I would add is that if you are still in your first round of history when your 8 yo hits the logic stage that you ramp things up more then.

 

Keep up the good work. We used SOTW, and it was just fine for the first time through.

 

Jennie

[lmrich]

Personally I think it is enough. I typed the questions out of the AG for my older kids to answer on their own. I would also recommend getting the tests; make sure your older child's narration is "meaty". We add other sources for the 3 paragraphs that I expect. Also STOW gets harder as you move forward - level 4 is much more involved than level 1.

[Chris in VA]

I also think you are doing fine. Love the suggestion from the PP about "meaty narrations."

I do like MOH2, tho, and it would probably be good for a 3rd or 4th grader. I intend to use it for the logic stage, as there's a lot of church history. And, there just doesn't seem to be much out there besides using an encyclopedia for a spine.

[Annabel Lee]

Well I've looked at Biblioplan, MOH, and Truthquest online now. Ugh - my head is spinning. I noticed that Biblioplan schedules MOH, the Bible, and some SOTW . The samples online make it look like it's just a reading schedule - no questions (oral or written).

 

The "meaty narrations" suggestion is a great one. This is our 1st year hs'ing a la WTM, or any type of classical/neoclassical (previously it was Abeka & montessori-style). So, this is our 1st year w/ narrations, copywork, dictations, and all that jazz. My 8yo was doing WWE 2 but the only result was him in tears and as we got further into the book it just got worse. He really didn't know what the 'main idea' or 'central idea' of a passage was. So... we've backed up to square one with that for now. We're in sort of a "pre-WWE" phase right now.

 

When I ask him (my 8 yo) for a history narration I get a blank stare at least 50% of the time. I end up wondering if they think I'm reading it out loud to myself for my own enjoyment, because they sure don't seem to have paid attention. It's a point of frustration in our home right now (if you couldn't tell). I'm just going to have to get much more firm about assigning things. Typing out the narration questions is a really good idea. I've been thinking that if he reads the text himself maybe more of it would stick. I'll start having him follow along as I read.

 

As for next year, I'm still stumped. I like the 4-yr. cycle for keeping the kids all in the same history, thus saving time. :) (We do science that way too). I'm a little worried about my older son not having had any state/local & U.S. history by 4th grade, since that's what the state tests that year cover. I know it's not the end of the world if he flunks those things (or is it - can he be held back?). I've always just figured we're on our own weird schedule apart from the "norm", but that we'll cover it at some point. It does still seem odd to me; the thought of having kids that old who don't know much about our own state or country's history.

So, I've looked @ Truthquest which does a 3-yr. American History for youngers then starts a longer world history cycle, or SL which would finish up world history quickly in 1 year (Core 2), then 2 years of American history (Cores 3 and 4). But I really like the idea of TOG and MFW. Problem w/ TOG for me is digital only, and cost. I'd do it if I was convinced it's what was best for us. Problem w/ MFW is that we'd have to do Adventures or ECC next year, then do ancients AGAIN in CtG, and my oldest would never get around to any US history until 7th or 8th grade. With the 4-yr. cycle, at least we'd reach modern times in 5th grade for him.

 

Sorry, I'm just thinking out loud now, I don't mean to ramble on so. I've got to decide somehow. Is there a homeschool convention where all of these history curric's are shown? :)

[Annie Laurie]

If you feel that SOTW with the AG is not deep enough for those ages, than you probably wouldn't like SL. I think SL is pretty relaxed. There are comprehension questions in the IG, but they are meant to be done orally, the answers aren't separate so the student can't write the answer in unless you want to retype all the questions yourself. The readers don't tie into the history until core 3 and a lot of it is reading aloud and just exposure in the younger cores.

[Annabel Lee]

If you feel that SOTW with the AG is not deep enough for those ages, than you probably wouldn't like SL. I think SL is pretty relaxed. There are comprehension questions in the IG, but they are meant to be done orally, the answers aren't separate so the student can't write the answer in unless you want to retype all the questions yourself. The readers don't tie into the history until core 3 and a lot of it is reading aloud and just exposure in the younger cores.

 

The funny thing is that I suspected that about SL (I've looked @ their old catalog and online), so I think I'm just struggling w/ choosing what direction overall to take as far as rigorous or relaxed, or somewhere inbetween. If I choose to go w/ SL, then I'm tossing all my super-rigorous TOG-type ideals out the window (sort of), and it would be b/c I just choose not to make school that hard this early in the game. There's another thing: I assume TOG is hard. It's what I read on these boards - esp. about it being hard for mom (TOG fog). I got the newest SL (yellow) catalog in the mail yesterday, so that one's really spinning around in my head w/ all the other options. :tongue_smilie: I just don't know how to choose. I don't want to make school too hard for them, or unenjoyable, but I do want it to be challenging.

 

I think I need to take the next month or 2 and just really tune into my kids' learning style. I need to try to stretch them and see how they do and how far is OK and how much is too much. I don't know how we've gotten this far w/o me knowing that. :confused: Guess I've got my work cut out for me. Thanks for all the helpful info though, ladies. If anyone else can shed some more light on my original question (which one for next year based on what I want out of it?), that would be super peachy.

[Chris in VA]

Y'know, in re-reading your post, I think I really would choose MOH 2 for next year, if I were you. You could supplement by celebrating some typical American holidays (Labor Day, Columbus Day, TG--) and tying a read aloud or a couple of days of reading alone to the holiday. For example, I really liked Story of the Pilgrims, and we used it last year during November to learn a little about the Pilgrims. Just keep a very, very light thread of American history running. Then the next year, you will hit the major points of Am Hist in Sotw 3.

[Staci in MO]

She said that grammar-age dc will forget a lot of the details of history that they learn - and that that's okay. The purpose of grammar stage is to create "pegs" for them to hang information on. It will get fleshed out again as they hit the logic and rhetoric stage. A few stories will stick in their minds, and when you go through the history cycle again, your dc will occasionally say, "Oh, yeah. I remember learning about this!" But don't be disappointed if they can't recall details from year to year. My older dc finished our first history cycle with a good general idea of the flow of history, and I was okay with that.

 

I personally think you're doing enough. Keep up with SOTW, use the questions in the AG. The idea of typing them up for him to answer is good, if he's ready for that, but not all 8-year-olds are. But just sitting down and going through the questions is a good exercise. Even if you have to tell him a lot of the answers, it's going to jog his memory and help it stick - and train him to listen better on his own. I also agree to use your time focusing on narrations. The ability to sum up information in his own words will serve him well as he gets older and starts writing essays.

 

Are you doing dictation yet? I really didn't understand the importance of dictation at first. But the ability to hold a thought in your head, and transfer that thought to paper in written form is an essential skill. Dictation is a good way to practice that.

 

One thing I do regret is not having my dc do more memorizing of lists like TWTM suggest when they were young. My 6th grader would have really benefited from memorizing the rulers of England and France as a 2nd grader. He had a terrible time keeping all the Henrys and Louies straight this year. :lol:

 

YMMV, of course, but those are the things I think of now as I look back on the first history cycle.

[Loupelou]

I use SL so my bias is obvious:). Is the oldest one you are homeschooling 8? If so I would continue with what you are doing. If you are determined to stick with the 4 year cycle then SL probably wouldn't work for you unless you skipped around. However, if your greatest concern is making sure that your child gets American History by a certain age maybe it is a good choice. We use our core with the SOTW Activity book, and test booklet. I also add in extra reading from the chapter suggestions where I think it necessary. At 8 I feel that oral narration, and discussion is sufficient, especially when you already have other language arts assignments, and if you are doing both daily.

[sagira]

She said that grammar-age dc will forget a lot of the details of history that they learn - and that that's okay. The purpose of grammar stage is to create "pegs" for them to hang information on. It will get fleshed out again as they hit the logic and rhetoric stage. A few stories will stick in their minds, and when you go through the history cycle again, your dc will occasionally say, "Oh, yeah. I remember learning about this!" But don't be disappointed if they can't recall details from year to year. My older dc finished our first history cycle with a good general idea of the flow of history, and I was okay with that.

 

I personally think you're doing enough. Keep up with SOTW, use the questions in the AG. The idea of typing them up for him to answer is good, if he's ready for that, but not all 8-year-olds are. But just sitting down and going through the questions is a good exercise. Even if you have to tell him a lot of the answers, it's going to jog his memory and help it stick - and train him to listen better on his own. I also agree to use your time focusing on narrations. The ability to sum up information in his own words will serve him well as he gets older and starts writing essays.

 

Are you doing dictation yet? I really didn't understand the importance of dictation at first. But the ability to hold a thought in your head, and transfer that thought to paper in written form is an essential skill. Dictation is a good way to practice that.

 

One thing I do regret is not having my dc do more memorizing of lists like TWTM suggest when they were young. My 6th grader would have really benefited from memorizing the rulers of England and France as a 2nd grader. He had a terrible time keeping all the Henrys and Louies straight this year. :lol:

 

YMMV, of course, but those are the things I think of now as I look back on the first history cycle.

 

:iagree:

[Carol in Cal.]

Maybe he doesn't know how to do it.

 

Read him a children's novel, a chapter a day, a really good one, and at the beginning of each reading, summarize what has happened before and remind him what the last thing that you read was. Then gradually transfer the responsibility for the summarization and 'last thing' to him, over time.

 

THEN go back and start with the narrations again.

 

In the meantime, I would ask him to write three sentences about the most important point of the SOTW story, and let him read the text over and over to figure out what that is. You have to run before you can walk. Buy the CD's and encourage him to listen to them while he's building Kapla block structures or Legos or something like that. He will probably enjoy the story telling aspect of things a great deal, and remember more because of the repetition.

 

Do you have Kingfisher or Usborne? They have great pictures to illustrate each of the SOTW passages, which can also be helpful in cementing the information. I encourage you to get the specific IR and RA books for your children's ages from the AG and use those--they are really, really good for reinforcement. I did SOTW1 without using the AG books--just picked out what I could find in the library--and when I started to use the AG books with SOTW2, I could have kicked myself for not doing it sooner as they were better than the ones that I just found on the shelves.

 

At these ages, I don't think that there is a better program than SOTW, hands down.

[scrappyhappymama]

Have you looked at History Odyssey? We are using it this year for Ancients and plan to use it again next year for Middle Ages. I like it because there are a variety of hands-on activities incorporated as well as extra copywork (definitions), maps and questions. It uses SOTW as a spine, but adds in oter sources to like CHOTW, which I like. My son really likes the hands-on stuff, so I use parts of the SOTW AG too and pick and choose what we like best. Sometimes we slow down and do it all. :) I've found that if I can engage his interest with the activities, I have much better luck getting him to do his narrations happily.

 

Here's a Sample Page:

 

http://www.pandiapress.com/images/Copy%20of%20sample%20pg%20MA%201.pdf

Edited April 17, 2009 by scrappyhappymama

[tiffany k]

I really agree with Carol in Cal. Focus on narration until it is effortless for him. Here's how I taught my ds8: Read a paragraph or short section where important information is given and ask him a leading question:

 

Me: Who did the princes ask to help them drive away Rodrigo?

DS: Tariq

Me: Right, the princes asked Tariq to help them.

 

Read some more, then stop again.

 

Me: What did Tariq do when he got to Spain?

DS: Took it away.

Me: Right, the princes asked Tariq to help them, but he conquered Spain instead...for what empire?

DS: Islam

Me: You got it! Tariq conquered Spain for the Islamic Empire instead of helping the sons of the dead king overthrow Rodrigo. You were really paying attention!

 

This sounds so totally corny, but it works and it keeps him engaged in the story and teaches him what a narration sounds like. We are on SOTW 2 now and he narrates very well. Maybe too well, but that's a different problem!

 

As for additional reading, the readers suggested in the AG really are worth looking at. If he's visual, the picture books make great independent reading without it feeling like school. He can tell you about what he learned as you look through the book together afterwards. My dd7 is very visual, so she enjoys this approach a lot. You can write up your own questions for readers if you really want him to write out his answers. My kids do a lot of writing so we do history orally.

 

HTH!

[Annabel Lee]

I just had a reply typed up and tried to insert a quote in the middle of it, and *poof*, all my typing disappeared. :glare:

 

Yes, my oldest hs'er is 8. My 13-yo dd goes to a charter school. Yes, we get the additional IR and RA books suggested in the SOTW AG for extra reading, the ones our library has, anyhow. I do interlibrary loans for the others but sometimes the timing is a little off, though I order a month ahead. Usually we only get around to them if I have time to read them out loud to the kids, but I'm going to start assigning some (esp. the lower-level IR's and picture books) to my 8-yo. I do have the red Kingfisher and the Usborne internet linked history, both of which we always open up and look at.

 

Carol, I really like your suggestions about using a good children's novel to help w/ narrations. I got out SWB's article "Tips for Narration" and am just having him summarize 2 consecutive (related) sentences from things we read into 1 sentence right now. Once he gets that down pat, I'll work him up to summarizing 3 sentences into 1, and so on. I like your suggestion though, b/c we already read a chapter of an Oz book daily at bedtime (the kids' choice, not mine:001_smile:) and that would be so easy to just add into the mix.

 

We do have the SOTW CD's, but oddly, my boys really don't enjoy listening to Jim's voice (sorry Jim!). They find it scary and one had nightmares about it. :confused: But on the other hand they like hearing L. Frank Buam's weird Oz stories right before bed and those don't bother them at all. Go figure. They very much prefer that I read SOTW to them.

 

Tiffany, the idea of stopping more frequently to ask questions like that will probably help a great deal too. I'd imagine he'd be able to answer the narration questions afterward alot better.

 

Thank you all so much for the great ideas and advice. I've actually got out a notebook & pen and have been taking notes.

 

As far as picking a history/literature-based curriculum for next year, I really want to have one for the schedule. I tend to flounder around freely and waste time when there's not a schedule. Part of what attracts me to "put-together" curricula is that multiple subjects are scheduled out in detail in advance. ScrappyHappyMama, I looked at HO a while back but haven't revisited it since I'm looking for something that incorporates Biblical worldview & Biblical historical events. I still really like MFW b/c they use the Bible as a spine. MOH is pretty "up there" on my list as well, although it is only a history curriculum. I know I listed some denominations that I'd prefer our curricula to 'jive' with, but we attend a non-denominational church & really I'm looking for something that 'jives' with the Bible in it's entirety and within it's historical context.

 

I laid out some options in various hs catalogs and asked my son what he thought about it. He said he'd rather learn about American history than keep on with the cycle we started. I don't let him decide the direction of our hs, but I just wondered what his preference was. I think I need to pray about it (do you think God cares which one I choose? I mean, this is getting pretty nit-picky and detailed. He's probably more interested in me finding the right balance between too easy and too hard for them, to keep things peaceful.). Right now I still don't know how to choose, except to flip a coin or something. :tongue_smilie: Currently I just read our children's Bible out loud to them daily, and although the timelines for it and SOTW don't always line up, it does add some of what I'm looking for. I just wish all the things in the Bible were interwoven with our history in some sort of logical way - chronologically or by empire/ruler/kingdom/area. We're just going to finish out SOTW 1 for ancients first, then move onto whatever else, even if it does end up being SOTW 2. For awhile there I was actually thinking of getting something to add or switch to for ancients, right now. We have other things, like narration & dictation, that need focus at the moment. :D

 

Staci in MO, thanks for the reminder. I do value hindsight (since it is 20/20 and all) a LOT. I've wondered that myself; no matter what curriculum I choose, how much of it are they really going to remember?

[Woodland_Mom]

My boys are in 1st and 3rd grade right now and I've been looking at history resources, too! I think SOTW is the very best choice for young students! If your kids are enjoying history, then maybe you shouldn't change the spine and just modify how you teach history.

 

I agree with a previous poster about memorizaition! Use the review cards in the AG. Have your kids cut them out and color them and memorize the titles! You'll be amazed by the "pegs" of information their little brains can store!

[Allearia]

I think working on narrations for history would go a long way towards making the history meatier for your third grader. Do you do the narrations using the questions and suggestions in the AG? Do you write them down or does he write them? If you write them, work on dictating them back to him, or having him copy, depending on where he is. As you go along you can work on helping him make better paragraphs. You can put the narrations together in a book with maybe coloring pages or drawings or pictures of activities you do. In my opinion, using the narrations is better than just the question and answer format. You can do a lot within that format and he will really understand and remember the material and improve with his writing. If you are doing a narration for each section of a chapter of SOTW (not that you have to do one for every section!) that is going to be a lot of writing for a third grader and you can just do the extra literature readings for enrichment and oral narration. Or if something really grabs him he can do some narration for the extra stuff instead of SOTW.

 

We haven't done memorization associated with history yet but I am hoping to start soon and that can add a lot to the study. I guess my point is, if you can get SOTW and the AG to work for you it can be streamlined yet meaty for the lower elementary age.

[MamaBlessedThrice]

Well, here are my two cents!

 

I'm planning to use SOTW using the Biblioplan schedule in order to combine Biblical history with the SOTW readings. Have you looked at the sample pages at the Biblioplan web site? They give you a good idea of what this looks like.

 

Those are some excellent suggestions for narration you've been given! I think I'll steal some. :)

 

The memory work question is one I've been pondering myself. I haven't received my copy of the SOTW AG yet, so I haven't seen the cards in the back. I hope those will be a good fit for us. I was toying with the idea of ordering the Veritas history cards and using them for memorization, but I'm really loathe to branch out into yet MORE curriculum, not wanting to spend more money and complicate things unnecessarily.

 

About the American history dilemma: I remember reading somewhere (the Ambleside Online site, maybe?) that Charlotte Mason advocated having students study two "streams" or tracks of history concurrently: the world history cycle, plus their national history, moving at a slower pace. (I think I also read that the Ambleside School in Fredericksburg, TX does this.)

 

So . . . I'm now planning to do this for next year:

 

1st grade DD: SOTW using Biblioplan and SOTW AG and readers

K DS: Overview of American history using Core Knowledge unit plans (from their web site) as I did this year with DD, supplementing with Edgar Eggleston's Stories of Great Americans for Little Americans.

 

Lost Classics publishers puts out a three-book series of American History texts (written in the last century in a story-like format) by Edgar Eggleston that increases in difficulty as students get older. You might want to check them out; perhaps you could cover American history informally in this way as you do SOTW.

 

Here's my plan: I hope that DD will get a very basic grounding in US history while listening in to brother's history lessons, while DS will get at least something out of sister's Ancient History lessons. Then the next year I can get them both synchronized in Year 2 of the history cycle and things should be easier after that in preparation for DS 2 starting school the next year.

[scrappyhappymama]

On the Biblical worldview and history, I thought I'd share my perspective, since you are still feeling things out. We are conservative, non-denominational Christians, so a Biblical worldview is very important to me, but also historical accuracy.

 

I personally did not care for some of the history programs out there that tout a biblical worldview, because I felt that the programs were skewed too strongly in favor of the history of the Hebrews and not enough emphasis on other ancient civilizations. On the other hand, most of the secular programs looked at left out biblical stories completely. I wanted something that gave my son a sense of how the history of the Jews lines up with other nations around them and how they may have influenced each other.

 

For that reason, we decided to go with History Odyssey- because it has a strong emphasis on the major ancient civilizations, as well as touching on many of the minor ones. It uses SOTW as one of it's main resources, so the history of the Jews is included as well. I have supplemented some to add a stronger biblical emphasis, for example we started with a Creation pre-unit and a World Flood unit and I add in some extra reading and activities to flesh out the history of the Israelites even more. But then again, I have added in materials for all the other units too, so that might just be me wanting to use all the cool stuff we've accumulated. :)

 

We also do a separate daily Bible study, so for this reason I was not as concerned about covering every single bible story in our history study. If I were trying to combine Bible and History in one study, something like MOH might be more appealing to me.