Stories of Great Americans for little Americans, or This Country of Ours for history

[A home for their hearts]

I'm having a hard time deciding which book to use for our history spine. I've thought about using them both but that might just be overkill. I will be using it as a read aloud to introduce the topids that we are going to discuss. I guess I could always use both and just pick and choose the chapters to read but that might be too much work. Help! This shoudn't be such a hard decision!

[Laura Corin]

I've found it readable and the boys are interested in it. The attitudes are quite dated, so it has sparked some interesting discussions about the description of the 'savages'. I haven't seen the other book you mentioned.

 

Laura

[FO4UR]

We are about 1/2 way through Stories of Great Americans for Little Americans. It's little short stories of famous Americans, not a narrative through history - iykwim. We really enjoy it -they are the perfect length for a younger elementary dc. My purpose in reading it is to expose dc to the names and times and enjoy a good story, not really teach American history. I would think adding these stories to your "spine" is a good idea.

 

I've not read TCOO, but it's used as the spine for American History at AO.

[HollyinNNV]

I'm having a hard time deciding which book to use for our history spine. I've thought about using them both but that might just be overkill. I will be using it as a read aloud to introduce the topids that we are going to discuss. I guess I could always use both and just pick and choose the chapters to read but that might be too much work. Help! This shoudn't be such a hard decision!

 

Baldwin lists TCoO as starting at age 10. So, I'd go with Great Americans/Little Americans. We have GALA and my 9 year old likes it. It is a little short and young for him. However, we also use A First Book of American History.

Holly

[love2read]

If you have read parts of the books online, I'd go with your gut feeling. We don't like either of the books. Over the years we've followed many suggestions from MA and almost always use older books, but I found both of these dry and so did the children. You may want to test a chapter on your children to see which one they prefer.

[SilverMoon]

My oldest is reading This Country of Ours on his own right now. We both like it well enough. There's a good bit of old English in it though, I'd consider how well your kids take to that when deciding. My 8yo spent so much time trying to decode it that she lost the story (very literal thinker!).

 

American History Stories is a good one for the ages you have, too. My 8yo is reading this one on her own. I try to map it out so both kids are generally in the same history. You can find it here ~ http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=pratt&book=ahs1&story=_contents

[Spy Car]

This Country of Ours is laced with very bigoted characterizations of Native Americans, African Americans, the institution of slavery, and Mormonism.

 

Bill

[violin69]

This Country of Ours is laced with very bigoted characterizations of Native Americans, African Americans, the institution of slavery, and Mormonism.

 

Bill

 

I found too many references to this problem and think that this is not the book for us. How about the American History stories? I absolutely love the samples. Very much in the style of CHOW.

 

(Also found that this site has Czechoslovak Fairy Tales which would be great for us to read as we live in Slovakia!)

[A home for their hearts]

This Country of Ours is laced with very bigoted characterizations of Native Americans, African Americans, the institution of slavery, and Mormonism.

 

Bill

 

Oh my, I had no idea! That will help in my deciding. I also realized that I meant to ask about A First Book in American History, not Stories of Great Americans for Little Americans. LOL I was thinking of adding in some stories from SGALA, but couldn't decide between This Country of Ours, and A First Book in American History. opps! Anyone have any opinions on A First Book in Americans History?

[Spy Car]

Oh my, I had no idea! That will help in my deciding. I also realized that I meant to ask about A First Book in American History, not Stories of Great Americans for Little Americans. LOL I was thinking of adding in some stories from SGALA, but couldn't decide between This Country of Ours, and A First Book in American History. opps! Anyone have any opinions on A First Book in Americans History?

 

It's a shame too, because HE Marshall does write in a vivid style. But, oh my, some of the things she has to say. There are just too many hard prejudices, and anachronistic ideas in this work for me to recommend using it with an impressionable child.

 

Bill

[HollyinNNV]

Bill,

Would this book (Marshall) work as a read aloud, editing as I went along?

Holly

[Spy Car]

I found too many references to this problem and think that this is not the book for us. How about the American History stories? I absolutely love the samples. Very much in the style of CHOW.

 

(Also found that this site has Czechoslovak Fairy Tales which would be great for us to read as we live in Slovakia!)

 

Way off topic, but I'm sitting in front of a Slovak poster from WWI that says:

 

BOH DO KRIVDY HROMOM A JUNAK GUL'AMI....

 

I could do all the accents, do you know what this means?

 

Bill

[HRAAB]

I have tried to use TCOO twice and failed both times. First time, my oldest refused to listen, and this last time, my 11 yr old dd stopped. Her attitudes towards the 'blood thirsty, immoral savages and African Americans was just too much for them. My children have Choctaw heritage so these issues are taken to heart.

 

I've tried it twice because I enjoy her writing, and I have an easier time overlooking her attitude because I place it in context of the time she lived. My children haven't been able to do that. In fact, my 11 yr old plugged her ears last night during our Little House reading when ma was giving her opinion of Indians. We had quite a discussion.

 

Janet

[Spy Car]

Bill,

Would this book (Marshall) work as a read aloud, editing as I went along?

Holly

 

You know it might, especially if you got the text version online (I believe it is at the Baldwin Project, and maybe Project Gutenburg?) and re-wrote passages, and dropped somethings (like Joseph Smith and Mormonism) altogether.

 

It would be a substantial re-write, but HE Marshall wasn't without talent as a stylist, and there are engaging parts of the book.

 

Bill

[HollyinNNV]

You know it might, especially if you got the text version online (I believe it is at the Baldwin Project, and maybe Project Gutenburg?) and re-wrote passages, and dropped somethings (like Joseph Smith and Mormonism) altogether.

 

It would be a substantial re-write, but HE Marshall wasn't without talent as a stylist, and there are engaging parts of the book.

 

Bill

 

Thanks, Bill. I have always edited on the fly. However, some books are just impossible. I won't totally cross this one off my list yet.

Holly

[violin69]

I understand how passages as such strike a cord. We lived for a few years in Lithuania where dd was a brunette in a sea of blonds. Reminders of WW2 were all around us and on a street, we even witnessed a Rabbi being harrassed by a Lithuanian. After reading Twenty and Ten from SL Core K, dd, 5 at the time, started asking me if the Nazis were coming to get her. She thought they'd mistaken her for a Jew.

[laylamcb]

I LOVE Marshall's style as well as the layout of TCOO (that is, the way she has structured the chronology)--so I've worked hard to make it work. TCOO is definitely a book that requires pre-reading. Some passages you'll have to skip altogether. If you have the time to pre-read, I do think TCOO is worth it. Just my opinion, of course.

 

Eggleston's Great Amer/Little Amer is a nice little book with some enjoyable stories, but I'd have a hard time using it as a spine. For me, it's got "supplement" written all over it. Again, my opinion only. :001_smile:

[sagira]

Not to try to confuse you further, but if you like TCOO you may like Mara Pratt's American History Stories. I decided to pass on TCOO after reading some passages that were.. hard to read. My dh, I and our dc are all a mix of all major races between us, so it can't help to feel offensive.

[Spy Car]

Thanks, Bill. I have always edited on the fly. However, some books are just impossible. I won't totally cross this one off my list yet.

Holly

 

So you see how difficult editing on the fly might be with this work here is an except I ran into the other day that gives a flavor of This Country of Ours:

 

At length the Indians in North Carolina plotted to kill all the white people.... From tribe to tribe the word was passed till hundreds knew the secret. But the Redman is silent and crafty, and neither by sign nor word did he betray it to the Pale-faces.

 

Suspecting nothing, with perfect faith in their friendship, the white people allowed the Indians to come and go freely in their settlements. Then one night a great many appeared, asking for food. Still the white people had no suspicion of evil, and many Indians were allowed even to spend the night in their houses.

 

The Pale-faces slept peacefully, but for the Redmen there was little rest. They waited impatiently for the dawn. At length the first streaks of light shivered across the sky, and from the woods came a loud fierce war whoop. It was answered by the Indians within the settlements, and with tomahawk in one hand and firebrand in the other they fell upon the still sleeping settlers.

 

They spared neither man nor woman, neither the old nor the young; and when they could find no more to slay they set fire to the houses. Then those who had hidden themselves were forced to flee from the flames, only to fall beneath the tomahawk. The Swiss and Germans round New Berne and the Huguenots of Bath were the chief sufferers.

 

But the wonder is that any white men escaped. For their cruel work at an end, and the settlements nought but flaming ruins, the Indians marched through the woods seeking any who had escaped, gathering at length to a spot arranged beforehand. Here they drank "fire water," rejoicing savagely over their victory. Then drunk with brandy and with blood they staggered forth again to continue their horrible labours. For three days the slaughter lasted, for three days the forests rang with terrifying war cries, and village after village was laid in ashes. Then too weary and too drunk for further effort, the Indians ceased their awful work.

 

This is pretty typical of Marshall's writing. Getting around this kind of stuff is more than just dropping a "savage" reference here and there.

 

Bill

[Lovedtodeath]

I think it would fit nicely alongside a book that paints pale faces as the criminals. A look at both sides, KWIM? Though in my mind I am thinking that the Native Americans were acting in self defense. Like a home-owner attacking a burglar, but that's totally OT...

 

Bill, is Our Island Story unacceptable as well?

 

And my devious mind is working over-time on the fact that these are deemed editable and have no copywrite. :D

Edited April 14, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Spy Car]

Bill, is Our Island Story unacceptable as well?

 

And my devious mind is working over-time on the fact that these are deemed editable and have no copywrite. :D

 

Carmen, I read parts of this long time ago. I remember it reading like a nationalist-fantasy, but I would not be on firm ground in saying yea or nay. Too much time has passed.

 

I wish I could be of more help.

 

Bill

Edited April 14, 2009 by Spy Car

[Spy Car]

I think it would fit nicely alongside a book that paints pale faces as the criminals. A look at both sides, KWIM? Though in my mind I am thinking that the Native Americans were acting in self defense. Like a home-owner attacking a burglar, but that's totally OT...

 

And my devious mind is working over-time on the fact that these are deemed editable and have no copywrite. :D

 

You would also need to add books that show African Americans can speak proper English (Frederick Douglas?), that not all enslaved were "happy" in their servitude, that perhaps not all Mormons are "horse-thieves", etc, etc.

 

Bill

[Lovedtodeath]

You would also need to add books that show African Americans can speak proper English (Frederick Douglas?), that not all enslaved were "happy" in their servitude, that perhaps not all Mormons are "horse-thieves", etc, etc.

 

Bill

 

I see.

[A home for their hearts]

I think I will pass on TCoO, and go for A First book in American History.

[laylamcb]

You would also need to add books that show African Americans can speak proper English (Frederick Douglas?), that not all enslaved were "happy" in their servitude, that perhaps not all Mormons are "horse-thieves", etc, etc.

 

Bill

 

:iagree:, and on that note--if OT slightly--in your American history study, make room for Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass. It's...amazing.

[Spy Car]

:iagree:, and on that note--if OT slightly--in your American history study, make room for Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass. It's...amazing.

 

:iagree:

 

Or the less widely read (but even better IMO) My Bondage and My Freedom which was Frederick Douglass's second autobiography. Written a decade after The Narrative, in this work Douglass's power as a writer reaches fruition. It tells more or less the same story, but with even greater eloquence.

 

But I'm with Leila, both these are amazing works! If you want to introduce your children to character study, and the positive virtues of education and perseverance, then Frederick Douglass is a man you want your children to know.

 

Bill

[HollyinNNV]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with Leila and Bill slightly. I scheduled Narrative of Frederick Douglas with a group of students, grades 8-12. The 8th and 9th grade students found the book particularly disturbing. I'm not saying it was inappropriate for their age group. However, I think it is questionable for younger students. Some would be ready and some would be unready. It is truly a YMMV book.

 

Holly

[Spy Car]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with Leila and Bill slightly. I scheduled Narrative of Frederick Douglas with a group of students, grades 8-12. The 8th and 9th grade students found the book particularly disturbing. I'm not saying it was inappropriate for their age group. However, I think it is questionable for younger students. Some would be ready and some would be unready. It is truly a YMMV book.

 

Holly

 

Just so parents are not frightened off by what I consider to be some of the most morally edifying books ever written, let me say it is understandable that children reading the first-hand account of a young man who was enslaved will find it disturbing. What other reaction could one hope for? That is no cause to avoid the book.

 

One may be disturbed reading The Diary of Ann Frank in the same way, but part of the value lies in the "disturbance".

 

And Douglass's books are not sensationalized. And there is an overwhelming amount of material that deals with Douglass pulling himself up out of the condition of enslavement, learning to read, studying hard, becoming a person of nobility and virtue that are simply inspirational, and ought to speak to all young people. This is a story of human triumph.

 

To avoid these works because the institution of slavery was a disturbing element of our nations history would be a shame IMO.

 

Bill

[violin69]

Way off topic, but I'm sitting in front of a Slovak poster from WWI that says:

 

BOH DO KRIVDY HROMOM A JUNAK GUL'AMI....

 

I could do all the accents, do you know what this means?

 

Bill

 

Literally it says "God thunder the injustice and young fighting boys with game balls." I asked my language teacher who says that it contextually translated is a cry to God out of complete desperation "God fight the injustices for the brave young fighting boys (drafted) who can't handle this on their own."

 

Very interesting.

[Spy Car]

Literally it says "God thunder the injustice and young fighting boys with game balls." I asked my language teacher who says that it contextually translated is a cry to God out of complete desperation "God fight the injustices for the brave young fighting boys (drafted) who can't handle this on their own."

 

Very interesting.

 

Thank you for the translations. The literal one is quite odd :tongue_smilie:

 

It is a marvelous original poster done by the great Czech artist Vojtech Preissig. It has a citizen-soldier holding a musket and an axe chasing three fleeing (German) soldiers each of whom has a 6 on their helmet (not too subtle ;)) and lightening bolts striking the soldiers out of dark storm-clouds.

 

Bill (who apologizes for the short hijack)

[laylamcb]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with Leila and Bill slightly. I scheduled Narrative of Frederick Douglas with a group of students, grades 8-12. The 8th and 9th grade students found the book particularly disturbing. I'm not saying it was inappropriate for their age group. However, I think it is questionable for younger students. Some would be ready and some would be unready. It is truly a YMMV book.

 

Holly

 

A good reminder, Holly: We're not all necessarily ready for every great book at the same time. :001_smile:

 

Thanks for the heads-up on that second autobiography, Bill--I've never read it!

[HollyinNNV]

Just so parents are not frightened off by what I consider to be some of the most morally edifying books ever written, let me say it is understandable that children reading the first-hand account of a young man who was enslaved will find it disturbing. What other reaction could one hope for? That is no cause to avoid the book.

 

One may be disturbed reading The Diary of Ann Frank in the same way, but part of the value lies in the "disturbance".

 

And Douglass's books are not sensationalized. And there is an overwhelming amount of material that deals with Douglass pulling himself up out of the condition of enslavement, learning to read, studying hard, becoming a person of nobility and virtue that are simply inspirational, and ought to speak to all young people. This is a story of human triumph.

 

To avoid these works because the institution of slavery was a disturbing element of our nations history would be a shame IMO.

 

Bill

 

Bill,

I scheduled the book with my class. So, I obviously do think it would be a shame to miss the book. I never said it was sensationalized? And I don't get much of your post. I suppose that you might have quoted me at the top, but then aren't really responding to me..........? Because I agree with you. :D

 

However, the original poster's oldest child is 9 and that is why I offered up a suggestion that this book might be better for older students. The book is not super challenging to understand from a vocabulary content side. However, it could be very disturbing from an emotional side, depending upon the student. That is why it is usually listed as a grade 7/8 or high school book.

 

Don't avoid the book. However, do schedule it at an age where it is appropriate for your individual child.

 

As always, it is a YMMV situation.

Holly

[Spy Car]

A good reminder, Holly: We're not all necessarily ready for every great book at the same time. :001_smile:

 

Thanks for the heads-up on that second autobiography, Bill--I've never read it!

 

It's much the same story, although Douglass expands on a number of points, but in that 10 year intervention of time his command of the language goes from being so high in The Narrative that many people didn't believe a formerly enslaved person could write so well, to an even higher literary plane of literary expression.

 

By the time of My Bondage, My Freedom Douglass is a writer you would not want to miss reading simply for his literary gifts. Add the value of the content, his experiences, and the inspirational and character elements and you get one of the "essential" works I don't think any young person (or old) should miss out reading in their lives.

 

There is also a third autobiograpy Life and Times of Frederick Douglass written late in life that is worth reading a least for the section that tells how he escaped (information he had to omit from the pre-Civil War books) but overall I prefer the two earlier works.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Bill,

I scheduled the book with my class. So, I obviously do think it would be a shame to miss the book. I never said it was sensationalized? And I don't get much of your post. I suppose that you might have quoted me at the top, but then aren't really responding to me..........? Because I agree with you. :D

 

However, the original poster's oldest child is 9 and that is why I offered up a suggestion that this book might be better for older students. The book is not super challenging to understand from a vocabulary content side. However, it could be very disturbing from an emotional side, depending upon the student. That is why it is usually listed as a grade 7/8 or high school book.

 

Don't avoid the book. However, do schedule it at an age where it is appropriate for your individual child.

 

As always, it is a YMMV situation.

Holly

 

No disagreements Holly. You did not say it was "sensationalized" and it is true any account of enslavement is bound to be disturbing to youngsters. And I'm sure you are right that more 11 or 12 year-olds would be of an appropriate age than 9 year-olds. High School or even college would be better than never.

 

I just didn't want to leave an impression that this work was so dark (or graphic) that parents might avoid it. Or to leave the impression that there are not very inspirational aspects to the work that go way beyond slavery.

 

And I know you would agree with this. I realize you brought the work to your students because you highly value the work.

 

Bill

[HollyinNNV]

 

I just didn't want to leave an impression that this work was so dark (or graphic) that parents might avoid it. Or to leave the impression that there are not very inspirational aspects to the work that go way beyond slavery.

 

Bill

 

I'll echo this sentiment. It is not as dark and graphic as *I* thought it might be. In fact, I think he might have held back. He seemed constrained (IMHO) by the moral standards of the day. He hinted at a few more horrible instances but did not describe them in any detail. It is very, very appropriate for students who have the emotional maturity to read it.

Holly