Q re: Why do people use religious curricula

[Kathy in MD]

Sure, that's why the Jedis only took kids under a certain age. They wanted 'em young, so that they could mold them from early on.

 

The problem with letting your kids decide what is crap and what is not, is that they first have to learn, or come up with, some way of telling the difference. Many things are not immediately "crap" on the surface. If I teach my kids "This is crap, but that, over there, is good, is true, is beautiful, is quality," and *why* this is so ... then they'll have some means by which to judge for themselves.

 

And the why is just as important as pointing out good from bad. Case in point. 40-50 plus years ago, a collegue, while in HS, visited an Amish community with her class. She was wearing shorts and was approached by a young Amish teen, male, "Oooh, are you one of those evil women?"

 

Yes, my coworker didn't show the best judgement on what to wear when visiting that particular culture, but she was young. And she and I thought his response was charmingly naive. But his response shows the problem of teaching what's good vs what's bad without understanding why it's bad or good AND how to spot the difference when it comes in a guise that the individual hasn't been taught to recognize the difference. Too many parents are so busy protecting their children, they forget the time is approaching when their children will need recognize it on their own.

[Plucky]

And the why is just as important as pointing out good from bad. Case in point. 40-50 plus years ago, a collegue, while in HS, visited an Amish community with her class. She was wearing shorts and was approached by a young Amish teen, male, "Oooh, are you one of those evil women?"

 

Yes, my coworker didn't show the best judgement on what to wear when visiting that particular culture, but she was young. And she and I thought his response was charmingly naive. But his response shows the problem of teaching what's good vs what's bad without understanding why it's bad or good AND how to spot the difference when it comes in a guise that the individual hasn't been taught to recognize the difference. Too many parents are so busy protecting their children, they forget the time is approaching when their children will need recognize it on their own.

 

I don't think most people that use Christian curriculum completely shelter their kids. I use a bit of Christian curriculum and my children know plenty about the world around them. The idea that all people who use Christian curriculum are overprotecting their children isn't logical (and I know you aren't the one who said it). All the homeschoolers I know are actively involved in their community, both Christian and secular homeschoolers. We actually intermingle quite a bit, even though there are pockets of Christians and secular hsers that prefer not to.

 

I often feel like I must be homeschooling on a whole other planet because so much of what I read here I just haven't experienced and I've been homeschooling going on 11 years.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

[why aren't] more people teaching / more companies publishing both sides of issues, secular and religious?

 

I'm rambling, I don't know if this was at all clear. Hopefully, someone will understand what I'm asking.

 

 

asta

 

[words in brackets inserted for clarity]

 

The profit margin in publishing is relatively thin. Companies that produce lines of secular products for the established school textbook market have little interest in producing additional lines for the homeschool market. There just isn't much money in it.

 

People are driven to produce a product if they don't already have something that fills that need. Most homeschool product lines have risen from families' desires to provide more satisfying content for their own children first. Having created something, they then seek to share it. I think that this is a pattern that you can find at the heart of many homeschool curriculum products. But as other recent threads have discussed, there isn't a gold mine of money out there to reward those who produce curriculum.

 

So I don't see it as a desire to slight any particular type of homeschooler. My guess is that at the upper levels you describe, homeschoolers who don't want religious orriented products draw on the products created for the public high school or community college market.

 

PS. I didn't realize when I replied that this was an older thread.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Sebastian (a lady)
Added PS

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

huh.

 

I would think that a great relationship w/ my dc based on trust would be plenty when we say: "dog crap is bad for you. stay away from it. that includes places/ things/ people like X, Y, Z." sounds fairly logical to me.....

 

Wow.

 

First of all, parents who do not shelter our children DO talk to them a great deal. I have just recently had to explain the "spit it out game" (use your imagination) that kids are playing at school and on the bus. I don't want my daughter to encounter that situation uninformed. I am also not going to keep her from life just because she might run into this situation either.

 

But I did not talk to my daughter in the context of this game being evil and the people who play it being bad. I talked about it in the context of what she thinks is important in a male/female relationship and I asked her how I thought she should be treated. I did not tell her, "this is bad." I asked her questions in order for her to discover on her own that the boys playing this game did not really want relationships with the girls, they just wanted to use them. This is much more effective than my simply telling her "oral sex is wrong at your age, don't do it - and oh by the way, since we know other kids are doing this all your friends now have to fill out a 10 page application so we can screen them."

 

Just because children are exposed to ideas, people, and things doesn't mean they are going to decide to try them all. My daughter watches rated R movies, but she doesn't swear. She watches music videos on TV with women wearing skimpy clothes, but picks out tasteful clothing.

 

I have seen and continue to see children who are not allowed to do so many things just eventually say to heck with it all. Trust me, their parents do NOT know what these kids do behind their backs. And when the parent is confronted with a situation, the answer is often either denial or to send the child off somewhere to be "fixed".

 

Some of the most untrusting parent/child relationships I have seen are those between uber-strict, sheltering parents and kids who want nothing more than to be allowed to do what normal kids do. The parents do not trust the children to make good decisions, so the kids stop trusting the parents.

 

It's a wonder so many people send kids off to public school and they turn out so well. I mean they are exposed to so much bad stuff. How could any of them possibly turn out to be successful, happy people with good morals?

Edited April 26, 2009 by Academy of Jedi Arts

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I don't think most people that use Christian curriculum completely shelter their kids.

 

This is so true.

 

I also think the parents who DO use it that way would shelter their kids anyway. It is totally possible to send a kid to public school and overshelter them. So I don't think the curriculum has anything to do with it. I think the curriculum though becomes a tool used to help in the sheltering process.

 

But you are absolutely correct, the majority of parents, no matter what their spiritual affiliation, do not completely shelter their kids.

[Guest janainaz]

Wow.

 

First of all, parents who do not shelter our children DO talk to them a great deal. I have just recently had to explain the "spit it out game" (use your imagination) that kids are playing at school and on the bus. I don't want my daughter to encounter that situation uninformed. I am also not going to keep her from life just because she might run into this situation either.

 

But I did not talk to my daughter in the context of this game being evil and the people who play it being bad. I talked about it in the context of what she thinks is important in a male/female relationship and I asked her how I thought she should be treated. I did not tell her, "this is bad." I asked her questions in order for her to discover on her own that the boys playing this game did not really want relationships with the girls, they just wanted to use them. This is much more effective than my simply telling her "oral sex is wrong at your age, don't do it - and oh by the way, since we know other kids are doing this all your friends now have to fill out a 10 page application so we can screen them."

 

Just because children are exposed to ideas, people, and things doesn't mean they are going to decide to try them all. My daughter watches rated R movies, but she doesn't swear. She watches music videos on TV with women wearing skimpy clothes, but picks out tasteful clothing.

 

I have seen and continue to see children who are not allowed to do so many things just eventually say to heck with it all. Trust me, their parents do NOT know what these kids do behind their backs. And when the parent is confronted with a situation, the answer is often either denial or to send the child off somewhere to be "fixed".

 

Some of the most untrusting parent/child relationships I have seen are those between uber-strict, sheltering parents and kids who want nothing more than to be allowed to do what normal kids do. The parents do not trust the children to make good decisions, so the kids stop trusting the parents.

 

It's a wonder so many people send kids off to public school and they turn out so well. I mean they are exposed to so much bad stuff. How could any of them possibly turn out to be successful, happy people with good morals?

 

I agree with the heart of what you said. Often kids are treated as if they have no brain, no heart and nothing in them that tells them what is right. There is something empowering to them about asking your child questions about what they hear and observe. Asking them what THEY think teaches them that you trust them. I want my kids growing up being in touch with the truth that is in them - not me over their should constantly telling them right from wrong.

 

As much as I'd love for my kids to grow up in the Garden of Eden, they aren't in it. I protect them as much as I feel is healthy, but to utterly shelter them would do an extreme disservice. In this world they are going to hear things, see things and be presented with choices that I'm not going to have the liberty to decide for them. Over-controlling your kids often produces rebellion and neglect often does the same thing. Either extreme is unhealthy.

[Peek a Boo]

Wow.

 

First of all, parents who do not shelter our children DO talk to them a great deal.

 

I didn't say they didn't --YOU were the one accusing people of creating clones/robots that can't think for themselves.

 

you did mention tho that:

I would much rather my child decide for herself what tastes bad than base it on what I think or do or tell her.

But I did not talk to my daughter in the context of this game being evil and the people who play it being bad. I talked about it in the context of what she thinks is important in a male/female relationship and I asked her how I thought she should be treated. I did not tell her, "this is bad." I asked her questions in order for her to discover on her own that the boys playing this game did not really want relationships with the girls, they just wanted to use them. This is much more effective than my simply telling her "oral sex is wrong at your age, don't do it - and oh by the way, since we know other kids are doing this all your friends now have to fill out a 10 page application so we can screen them."

 

so you ARE telling her stuff.

leading questions. Yeah, we do that too. It's a very effective technique. You basically manipulate the questions to get the desired choice. Very age appropriate. It's discussed in several Christian parenting articles too. We probably have quite a bit in common: to help a child learn to reason. It's also VERY different from letting your child TRULY learn on their own and make their OWN choices. I'm guessing that if she had chosen to do the opposite, you would let her? Or ask her more leading questions? And if you think your hypothetical instruction at the end of the paragraph is typical, you're even less accurate in your portrayal of the usual situation.

Just because children are exposed to ideas, people, and things doesn't mean they are going to decide to try them all. My daughter watches rated R movies, but she doesn't swear. She watches music videos on TV with women wearing skimpy clothes, but picks out tasteful clothing.

you're talking about what happens when a child decides to make a right choice based on leading questions. The deeper issue is: if she decided to choose to play that game, swear, and dress in skimpy clothing, you'd let her? what would her choices look like w/o your parental modeling or leading questions?

I have seen and continue to see children who are not allowed to do so many things just eventually say to heck with it all. Trust me, their parents do NOT know what these kids do behind their backs. And when the parent is confronted with a situation, the answer is often either denial or to send the child off somewhere to be "fixed".

 

sure. That happens to kids that are allowed to make their own choices, regardless also.

Some of the most untrusting parent/child relationships I have seen are those between uber-strict, sheltering parents and kids who want nothing more than to be allowed to do what normal kids do. The parents do not trust the children to make good decisions, so the kids stop trusting the parents.

A.I wasn't sheltered.

B.Bad trust relationship.

 

A. They were sheltered

B. Bad trust relationship.

 

A does not cause B.

Sheltering has little to do w/ the trust relationship between kids and adults.

sounds like bad parenting all around, regardless their philosophy. I've seen plenty of "strict" parents and their [successful, well-adjusted] adult children, so between my own experience, further reading, and your anecdotal evidence, you haven't made a rock solid case for Creating Clones 101 yet.

It's a wonder so many people send kids off to public school and they turn out so well. I mean they are exposed to so much bad stuff. How could any of them possibly turn out to be successful, happy people with good morals?

 

well, the statistics and reports by the school systems themselves show quite a few that AREN't turning out "so well." That and our correctional system.

 

That a few turn out well is not an indication that the system itself is right.

Even homeschooling produces some bad eggs. Shoot, even Darth Vader was doing "pretty well" [in some eyes] for the first couple movies.

 

Back to Yoda :)

[Peek a Boo]

And the why is just as important as pointing out good from bad.

 

yup. back to those leading questions. or direct instruction including the whys. take your pick :)

[Janet in WA]

Do your kids have the freedom to decide for themselves what is crappy though?

 

Do they have the opportunity to taste the poo and decide for themselves if it is bad or watch others eat the poo and get sick from it?

 

Um, no. Unfortunately, crappy stuff not only LOOKS good, it TASTES good and FEELS good. Edited April 27, 2009 by Janet in WA

[Guest janainaz]

So....I guess you could say that most parents do the best they can based on what they believe is right. Good parents often have kids that use their free will to make bad choices and bad parents often have kids that use it to make good choices. Isn't it enough to just do the best you can to have a good relationship with your kids?

 

One of my favorite Bible stories was that of the prodigal son. I'm not doing Christianese here, it's just a great word picture. The father has a son that does everything right, he's also got one that asks for his inheritance early and wants to go blow it. So....the father gives it to him. He does not say, "no, no, bad decision.....". Instead, he says, "Here!"

 

His kid blows it, ends up in a bad place, realizes it, realizes his mistake, learns from it and comes home to a father that receives him with open arms and throws a party.

 

So, this same father had two totally different kids. There are times a parent might say what they think on something and times they might hold back and let the kid figure it out. There are times to intervene and times to step back - nothing is cut and dry, black and white. There are no guarantees and no perfect parents, no perfect philosophies. Parents do have tremendous impact, but kids still have free will. It's more about how you handle it when they make a bad decision.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

you're talking about what happens when a child decides to make a right choice based on leading questions. The deeper issue is: if she decided to choose to play that game, swear, and dress in skimpy clothing, you'd let her?

 

Well, if she did decide to make those choices, there is really nothing I can do to stop it. Keeping her locked up in the house is not going to solve the self esteem issues and other psychological issues that can cause a child to act out in this way. What I can do if I see evidence of her making wrong choices is to set up an appointment with a qualified professional (for the whole family) to help get to the root of the issues.

 

Having a true dialogue is much different than just asking a child questions to get them to say what you want to hear.

 

I would much rather my child decide for herself what tastes bad than base it on what I think or do or tell her.

 

That's exactly right. The more situations she is exposed to and the more people both good and bad she is exposed to, the better prepared she is for a time when I won't be there to tell her what to think or what to do.

[Guest janainaz]

Well, if she did decide to make those choices, there is really nothing I can do to stop it. Keeping her locked up in the house is not going to solve the self esteem issues and other psychological issues that can cause a child to act out in this way. What I can do if I see evidence of her making wrong choices is to set up an appointment with a qualified professional (for the whole family) to help get to the root of the issues.

 

Having a true dialogue is much different than just asking a child questions to get them to say what you want to hear.

 

 

 

That's exactly right. The more situations she is exposed to and the more people both good and bad she is exposed to, the better prepared she is for a time when I won't be there to tell her what to think or what to do.

 

That qualified professional would be you. No one would be better at understanding your daughter's heart than you.

[mommyrooch]

yeah, but on the flip side, for the sake of discussion, just cuz you brought it up, since i have the time.......most kids don't need to be exposed to stuff that is the equivalent of an ounce of dog crap in their brownies. no matter how good the brownies taste or how much broccoli has been pureed into them.

 

I do think there is [usually] a difference between "learning about" and "being exposed" to bad stuff.

 

"In the real world" i want my kids to learn to avoid crappy stuff. That is easily modeled at home :)

 

How can they they truly learn to avoid the dog crap if they don't "know" that it stinks? Which do you think is more effective, a kid smelling stinky dog crap and being told to avoid it or just telling a kid to avoid it without the experience of the smell? I guess I just don't trust my kids' judgement or their willingness to follow orders that much.

 

Although there may be few instances where "learning about" something is enough, our world by far and large forces us to be exposed to them. Whether it be cursing, drinking, smoking, pre-marital sex, different beliefs or non believers, prejudice, hate, murder, divorce, domestic violence etc. etc. etc. I challenge virtually any adult to go through a single day without seeing and being exposed to at least some of these things. Just turn on the 10:00 news.

 

Keep in mind that we are ultimately raising our kids to be adults in this world. They won't always be children in this world. Yes, we can somewhat protect them from these issues today. Even this is virtually impossible though because they do have to leave our homes. We cannot protect them from these tough and taboo issues as adults so I do believe that in most cases exposure is a tool needed so that my kids can "truly" understand the why's behind the reasons for such issues being wrong. I don't want to balance my kids future on them making choices "just because I said so" There WILL come a time in their life when this alone won't be enough. I want my children to make the right choices because they truly understand WHY these things are wrong. Not just that they're wrong.

 

Does this mean I'm going to condone or allow my kids to drink, curse, smoke, engage in violence etc. etc, etc.? ABSOLUTELY NOT! We will NEVER allow these things in our children or our home. We will however allow our kids to "see" these things in others because again, no matter how much I wish it weren't so, They WILL see these things eventually no matter how hard I try to protect them. Probably sooner than later and I want them prepared for them when they do.

 

Here's an example. We take our kids to feed the homeless once a month with our church. I will be the first to tell you that there are some shady characters down there but I think that it is a two fold educational opportunity for them. I do not deny them the opportunity to feed these hungry people because some of them are dirty, vulger or alcoholics. I believe that it is so vitally important to teach my kids tolerance and kindness to all people regardless of their social status, beliefs, or even their personal day to day choices.

 

This is one example of "exposure" that I use as an opportunity to "teach" them why we don't curse, drink etc. While they are learning of the "bads" involved with these people they are also learning about the "goods" they can do to help them.

 

There is a difference between condoning behaviors and allowing exposure to behaviors. By allowing my kids to be exposed to certain issues, be it homeless people or PG13 movies, and thus teaching them with these opportunities, I am equipping them with the tools they will need when the day comes that they have to make tough decisions. And that day WILL come. When that day comes I want them to have more weapons in their arsonal that "just because I said so".

 

My grandpa used to have a saying that I absolutely love. "Raising a kid is a lot like holding a bar of soap. If you hold on too tight it will pop right out of your hands. If you don't hold on tight enough however, it will slip right through."

 

This is so true. We must have just the right amount of balance with our kids or they will pop out because we held on too tight or they will slip through because we didn't hold on tight enough.

 

mommyrooch

[asta]

I don't know if you noticed that I deleted what I wrote at 2:48 pm after I started to read through the thread. You posted at 2:49 pm so I am assuming that you quoted me and then it took you a few minutes to write the rest of your post.

 

The reason I deleted my post was b/c I did not want to keep bringing it up after I saw so many others did.

 

And I wrote about hating the phrase, not hating you b/c you wrote it so in my mind, I don't consider it flaming you.

 

Thank you. Mine is edited as well.

 

 

asta

[unsinkable]

Thank you. Mine is edited as well.

 

 

asta

 

You are welcome. And thank you, too.

[Peek a Boo]

Well, if she did decide to make those choices, there is really nothing I can do to stop it. Keeping her locked up in the house is not going to solve the self esteem issues and other psychological issues that can cause a child to act out in this way. What I can do if I see evidence of her making wrong choices is to set up an appointment with a qualified professional (for the whole family) to help get to the root of the issues.

 

on the bolded part, you are wrong. That's where Parenting kicks in. Those qualified professionals of which you speak are just waiting for parents who think they have no ability to correct a child making wrong, self destructive choices. what do you think a "trained professional" is going to DO to "fix" the situation? They are going to instruct her.

you can take the time to actually train her in the right way to live and save you, her, and the professional a whole lot of grief, time, money, and agony.

and ftr, that doesn't necessarily include locking her up in the house --lots of parenting suggestions out there in both Christian and secular materials that offer suggestions on limited choices to help train a child, and few include "locking them up" lol. But since your leading questions are basically doing that anyway, i think the only disconnect is what you are really doing vs what you claim to be doing. You ARE training her, you've just convinced yourself that your techniques are "child discovery."

However, if your method of parenting leads to such wrong choices being made by a child that you refuse to address, then the ones locking her up will be the correctional facility. Talk about "real world consequences...."

 

Having a true dialogue is much different than just asking a child questions to get them to say what you want to hear.

 

well sure! but in your "true dialogue" did you discuss women who are also looking for casual relationships? that actually appreciate finding a guy that isn't looking for a long term commitment? women w/ fetishes that LIKE being used? that some people actually PREFER a use-them-and-lose them approach? or did you limit your "true dialogue to only the parts YOU wanted her to figure out?

 

when you took her to the police station to "let her discover" about drugs, did you also offer equal time to someone that has "successfully" used drugs and enjoyed it? that isn't in jail or in a bad relationship? Or did you conveniently leave that part out?

 

 

That's exactly right. The more situations she is exposed to and the more people both good and bad she is exposed to, the better prepared she is for a time when I won't be there to tell her what to think or what to do.

 

only because you are training her along the way, since a good Jedi receives much training and a great Jedi master spends much time instructing their pupil, sometimes away from particular influences so the Good can be strongly grounded in intuition. It's the Jedi that abandons their training that turn out bad. :)

[Peek a Boo]

How can they they truly learn to avoid the dog crap if they don't "know" that it stinks? Which do you think is more effective, a kid smelling stinky dog crap and being told to avoid it or just telling a kid to avoid it without the experience of the smell? I guess I just don't trust my kids' judgement or their willingness to follow orders that much.

 

 

How can they learn to avoid drugs unless they truly experience what they are like? Does that mean you have them personally experience how addictive drugs are? let them hang out w/ people on drugs so they can "know"? Do they refuse to believe about the ancient civilizations unless you take them there personally? Do you really think a child is so incompetent that they can't recognize a thing from GOOD instruction? Even your last sentence: do your children continually disobey your training at the homeless shelter?

 

Although there may be few instances where "learning about" something is enough, our world by far and large forces us to be exposed to them. Whether it be cursing, drinking, smoking, pre-marital sex, different beliefs or non believers, prejudice, hate, murder, divorce, domestic violence etc. etc. etc. I challenge virtually any adult to go through a single day without seeing and being exposed to at least some of these things. Just turn on the 10:00 news.

 

which is why claims of "they are sheltering their dc!!" are usually bunk. Most of us realize nobody can be completely sheltered. We can, however, minimize the nastiness during a training routine of childhood.

 

Keep in mind that we are ultimately raising our kids to be adults in this world. They won't always be children in this world. Yes, we can somewhat protect them from these issues today. Even this is virtually impossible though because they do have to leave our homes. We cannot protect them from these tough and taboo issues as adults so I do believe that in most cases exposure is a tool needed so that my kids can "truly" understand the why's behind the reasons for such issues being wrong. I don't want to balance my kids future on them making choices "just because I said so" There WILL come a time in their life when this alone won't be enough. I want my children to make the right choices because they truly understand WHY these things are wrong. Not just that they're wrong.

right --they WILL BE adults. They ARE NOT adults now. The training grounds of which we speak last over a dozen years. and if you think most kids are being told "just because I said so" then you aren't spending your time w/ very many parents when they get into the nitty gritty of parenting: just because i say "because I said so" on the playground does not mean i am neglecting to follow that up in the privacy of my own home when we have more time to focus on the situation.

 

Does this mean I'm going to condone or allow my kids to drink, curse, smoke, engage in violence etc. etc, etc.? ABSOLUTELY NOT! We will NEVER allow these things in our children or our home. We will however allow our kids to "see" these things in others because again, no matter how much I wish it weren't so, They WILL see these things eventually no matter how hard I try to protect them. Probably sooner than later and I want them prepared for them when they do.

 

this is where we part ways: they WILL SEE these things, but there is no reason to push the envelope in a safe environment at a younger age. Training looks the same in most venues: practice doing what you SHOULD BE doing. Take the Amish reaction to the school shooting. They certainly weren't regularly exposed to violence, but they all reacted amazingly. Go figure.:glare:

 

Here's an example. We take our kids to feed the homeless once a month with our church. I will be the first to tell you that there are some shady characters down there but I think that it is a two fold educational opportunity for them. I do not deny them the opportunity to feed these hungry people because some of them are dirty, vulger or alcoholics. I believe that it is so vitally important to teach my kids tolerance and kindness to all people regardless of their social status, beliefs, or even their personal day to day choices.

 

sure- and there are a lot of hungry people to be fed. We do Meals on Wheels and get to feed people w/o the nastiness: they see the gratitude expressed and get to serve. There's no NEED to expose them to the wide variety of evils in the world if you are teaching them one basic concept to be applied across the board, no matter what: love your neighbor as yourself. i don't have to TAKE THEM to see stuff like that "firsthand" if they have been properly trained how to respond. And I'm guessing you ARE training them to respond w/ kindness, right?

 

This is one example of "exposure" that I use as an opportunity to "teach" them why we don't curse, drink etc. While they are learning of the "bads" involved with these people they are also learning about the "goods" they can do to help them..... I am equipping them with the tools they will need when the day comes that they have to make tough decisions. And that day WILL come. When that day comes I want them to have more weapons in their arsonal that "just because I said so".

 

and i think it is FINE that you decide to use this method, but it is not the ONLY way to teach children kindness, tolerance, and proper responses to others. THAT is my point :)

 

 

My grandpa used to have a saying that I absolutely love. "Raising a kid is a lot like holding a bar of soap. If you hold on too tight it will pop right out of your hands. If you don't hold on tight enough however, it will slip right through."

 

yup. and if it becomes too contaminated w/ filth it is no longer any good as soap.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Those qualified professionals of which you speak are just waiting for parents who think they have no ability to correct a child making wrong, self destructive choices. what do you think a "trained professional" is going to DO to "fix" the situation? They are going to instruct her.

 

No, they are going to give our family tools to help. I couldn't just call up any ol' psychologist if my dd were having an issue. I would need to be set up with a psychologist who specializes in highly gifted children like my daughter. The issues these children face are often quite complex. My dh and I are very thankful for the help we have and continue to get from those who have devoted themselves to studying children like ours.

 

you can take the time to actually train her in the right way to live

 

I find the whole thought of "training" a child like a dog to be extremely degrading.

 

but in your "true dialogue" did you discuss women who are also looking for casual relationships? that actually appreciate finding a guy that isn't looking for a long term commitment?

 

Of course, because before I got married I was one of these women. I was focused on school and my career and did not want to be tied down to one guy. My husband is the only man I have ever seen exclusively.

 

when you took her to the police station to "let her discover" about drugs, did you also offer equal time to someone that has "successfully" used drugs and enjoyed it?

 

Yes, my dd knows that my husband smoked pot in high school and I did it in college.

[Peek a Boo]

No, they are going to give our family tools to help.

 

what do you think those "tools" are?? a lack of instruction?

 

I find the whole thought of "training" a child like a dog to be extremely degrading.

 

that's because you have a skewed understanding of the word "train." And nobody said "like a dog" --you continue to assume that. You are already training your child w/ dialogue, you just refuse to see it.

 

Of course, because before I got married I was one of these women. I was focused on school and my career and did not want to be tied down to one guy. My husband is the only man I have ever seen exclusively.

 

but then why would you lead her w/questions "in order" to make her see a specific pov?

 

Yes, my dd knows that my husband smoked pot in high school and I did it in college.

Pot?? If that's the only equal time she got to hear, you know that's a copout.

so your dialogue w/ her was "it's ok to use different drugs, just do so responsibly?" That doesn't seem to mesh w/ your response in the drug thread.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

what do you think those "tools" are?? a lack of instruction?

 

You have the opportunity to go and learn about psychology just like anyone else. If you are genuinely interested in learning about ways to help gifted children who are struggling, I would be glad to share those with you. I am far from stupid and do not appreciate being addressed as such.

 

Good day.

[Peek a Boo]

You have the opportunity to go and learn about psychology just like anyone else. If you are genuinely interested in learning about ways to help gifted children who are struggling, I would be glad to share those with you. I am far from stupid and do not appreciate being addressed as such.

 

Good day.

 

There is more to psychology than helping gifted children.

 

the entire point is to help someone CHANGE something.

 

I've done enough study about psychology and human behavior to know that any "tools" they give you aren't going to be something you come up w/ on your own [which is why you are seeking help]: They will be TAUGHT; instructed; TRAINED. there are various methods to get that instruction/ training imparted, but they basically boil down to one thing: education.

 

Now, if you are aware of a form of psychology where no change is expected in the client or no teaching/ communication technique is ever conducted, yes, i would be VERY interested -sincerely- in knowing about it.

 

But the discussion was about leading/ training children to make right choices, and I do think you've shared quite a bit of how you do that, so thanks.

[asta]

Well, I guess DBT wouldn't count then, but it sure is helpful for those with borderline personality disorder.

 

All DBT involves two components:

 

1. An individual component in which the therapist and patient discuss issues that come up during the week, recorded on diary cards and follow a treatment target hierarchy. Self-injurious and suicidal behaviors take first priority, followed by therapy interfering behaviors. Then there are quality of life issues and finally working towards improving one's life generally. During the individual therapy, the therapist and patient work towards improving skill use. Often, skills group is discussed and obstacles to acting skillfully are addressed.

 

2. The group, which ordinarily meets once weekly for two to two-and-a-half hours, learns to use specific skills that are broken down into four modules: core mindfulness skills, interpersonal effectiveness skills, emotion regulation skills, and distress tolerance skills.

 

Neither component is used by itself; the individual component is considered necessary to keep suicidal urges or uncontrolled emotional issues from disrupting group sessions, while the group sessions teach the skills unique to DBT, and also provide practice with regulating emotions and behavior in a social context.

[HollyinNNV]

Well, I guess DBT wouldn't count then, but it sure is helpful for those with borderline personality disorder.

 

Do you know someone with borderline, Asta?

[asta]

Do you know someone with borderline, Asta?

 

Several. I work in Mental Health.

 

 

asta

[Peek a Boo]

Well, I guess DBT wouldn't count then, but it sure is helpful for those with borderline personality disorder.

 

 

why wouldn't those count??

 

1. During the individual therapy, the therapist and patient work towards improving skill use. Often, skills group is discussed and obstacles to acting skillfully are addressed.

 

2.learns to use specific skills

 

sounds like some sort of instruction is being used in both parts?? how does a therapist intend to help a patient improve skill use if there's no teaching/training/instruction or form of communication to elicit a particular response??

 

my entire point is that there is some form of training/ teaching/ instruction going on, and that parents can absolutely use training/ teaching/ instruction at home to help guide a child to good choices. Jedi seemed to be arguing against using any training/teaching/instruction techniques on a child, but seems fine that a professional is going to use some sort of training/teaching/instruction on a child. She can clarify if i have read her incorrectly though.

 

eta: I asked Now, if you are aware of a form of psychology where no change is expected in the client or no teaching/ communication technique is ever conducted, yes, i would be VERY interested -sincerely- in knowing about it.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Peek a Boo

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

how does a therapist intend to help a patient improve skill use if there's no teaching/training/instruction or form of communication to elicit a particular response??

 

Certainly not by arguing over semantics.

[Peek a Boo]

Certainly not by arguing over semantics.

you mean like equating training/teaching a child/person to training/teaching dogs? ;)

 

seriously: what difference do you see in training a child to act correctly [by using various educational methods] and teaching a child to act correctly [by using various educational methods]?

 

i wasn't the one accusing others of trying to create clones/ robots/ persons incapable of independent thought because we decide to teach them basic skills and principles. If it's just "semantics" then are you saying we are basically in agreement?

[mommyrooch]

Does that mean you have them personally experience how addictive drugs are? let them hang out w/ people on drugs so they can "know"?

 

Nope. What a silly question. Or course I don't let my kids do drugs. It seems that we are having a failure to communicate.:banghead: I thought I made it pretty clear with my comment about absolutely not allowing this behavior in my children or in my home.

 

Again, I will however let them see the negative effects that drugs and alcohol has on others so they "understand" why these things are so dangerous and destructive. That way hopefully, they won't feel the need to find out for themselves. I think we can agree that this kind or behavior is what we would both like to avoid in our kids.

 

Do they refuse to believe about the ancient civilizations unless you take them there personally? Do you really think a child is so incompetent that they can't recognize a thing from GOOD instruction?

 

Nope again on both questions. My kids are quite competent. I could teach my kids (with GOOD instruction) about ancient civilizations all day long and they will certainly BELIEVE it but they just won't KNOW it like they would if they saw it for themselves. Do you really believe just telling a kid about ancient civilizations would have as much impact on them as going there and seeing for themselves? Why would we ever take a trip to places like uum, Jerusalem? I have taught my kids about Jesus and where he was from but boy, I long for the day that I can take them there so they can "see" where Jesus lived. I just don't think my GOOD instruction will have as much impact on them as that trip. Call me crazy.:willy_nilly:

 

Even your last sentence: do your children continually disobey your training at the homeless shelter?

 

NO! my kids do not disobey me continually. I have great kids that actually mind quite well.

 

Up until now this conversation was very cival but this comment of yours was pretty mean. :sad: I did NOT in any way address your children personally in this conversation and I absolutely under no circumstances ever would! I don't know your kids and I make no assumptions to. For all I know you have the kindest children imaginable.

 

We can agree or disagree on issues all day long but please refrain from making personal, negative comments about my children.

 

Now, on to the issues. My kids are really good kids that do mind very well. They are however kids. They do not mind 100% of the time. NO KID DOES! They are human. They make mistakes and their judgement stinks sometimes. Their motivation for disobeying does not stem from some deep rooted desire or need to rebel, disobey or be mean. It stems from the fact that they are human children and they make bad choices sometimes. They make mistakes.

 

I am a realist. I KNOW that my children will disobey me at some point on some things and I cannot be with them 24/7 to guarantee that they don't. Does this mean that I don't "trust" them. Of course not. It's the world and the influence of the world that I don't trust. If my kids could stay under my roof and under my instruction 24/7 then I wouldn't have a thing to worry about. I however cannot expect that so I will raise them up in the way they "should" go. Did you catch that? "SHOULD GO!" Not necessarily will go. Even the Bible predicts these downfalls. It doesn't instruct us to raise our children up in the way the WILL go. It tells us to raise them up in the way they SHOULD go. We are then assured that if we do this then when they are OLD they will not part from it. Proverbs 22:6. It doesn't say anything about them not departing from it when they are kids.

 

My kids will get off track at some point in their lives. So will yours and so will Jane Doe's and John Doe's and Sally Sue's and Jim Bob's. It is written.

 

THIS is why I don't trust my children's judgement or willingness to always mind. Not because they are horrible, disobedient kids but because they are human and sinners saved by grace. They can and WILL make mistakes. I must raise them in the way they SHOULD go. Any parent that really believes that their kid is going to mind them 100% of the time when they are out of their sight (just because the kid got "good instruction") is living with blinders on. No matter how good we are as parents and no matter how or how well we teach our children, our kids will still make some wrong choices.

 

right --they WILL BE adults. They ARE NOT adults now. The training grounds of which we speak last over a dozen years. and if you think most kids are being told "just because I said so" then you aren't spending your time w/ very many parents when they get into the nitty gritty of parenting: just because i say "because I said so" on the playground does not mean i am neglecting to follow that up in the privacy of my own home when we have more time to focus on the situation.

 

Again, The world isn't going to wait outside our doors those "dozen" years of instruction. The devil and sin will make it's way into our children's lives before they are grown. We must be diligent and proactive in the protection and preparation of our children.

 

 

this is where we part ways: they WILL SEE these things, but there is no reason to push the envelope in a safe environment at a younger age. Training looks the same in most venues: practice doing what you SHOULD BE doing. Take the Amish reaction to the school shooting. They certainly weren't regularly exposed to violence, but they all reacted amazingly. Go figure.

 

I can't help but resent this a bit. I have NEVER pushed the envelope when it comes to my kids and their safety. They are never allowed to be "exposed" to anything, even movies, unless it is under my husbands and my VERY careful supervision. They aren't even allowed to go outside alone unless I can see and hear them from the house. I'm actually probably a bit paranoid when it comes to protecting my kids. I won't even let them walk through Wal-Mart alone because you never know what creepies might be lurking nearby. :)

 

There is a HUGE difference between allowing my children to have very supervised, controlled exposure to things and letting them be dangerously exposed.

 

sure- and there are a lot of hungry people to be fed. We do Meals on Wheels and get to feed people w/o the nastiness: they see the gratitude expressed and get to serve. There's no NEED to expose them to the wide variety of evils in the world if you are teaching them one basic concept to be applied across the board, no matter what: love your neighbor as yourself. i don't have to TAKE THEM to see stuff like that "firsthand" if they have been properly trained how to respond. And I'm guessing you ARE training them to respond w/ kindness, right?

 

Nope, I'm raising them up to be as nasty minded and as hateful as possible.:D Did you even read my previous post? I believe my exact words were "I will NEVER allow my kids to drink, smoke, do drugs, curse, engage in violence etc. etc. etc." Not unless it over my dead body! I also CLEARLY stated that I believe that it is vitally important that they grow up with tolerance and kindness for all people. May I suggest that you accurately read the posts of others before you ask them a sarcastic question.

 

Oh, and there is often times a NEED to expose them to the nastiness. Our world sure will if we don't. We just NEED to do it in a way that is highly monitered and safe for our children.

 

 

and i think it is FINE that you decide to use this method, but it is not the ONLY way to teach children kindness, tolerance, and proper responses to others. THAT is my point

 

:iagree: There are many ways to teach our children and I commend you for what you're doing with the meals on wheels program. Kuddos mom!:thumbup1:

 

 

 

yup. and if it becomes too contaminated w/ filth it is no longer any good as soap.

 

Soap is still soap. Now matter how filthy it gets if you keep rubbing it it will come clean. There's a whole lot of filth in this world and contamination is guaranteed. Our view of contamination is different. I don't consider it contamination if my children are being safely supervised while being taught about tough issues. I do consider it contamination if I or they condone these things, if they participate in these things, have friends that do these things etc. etc. Again, there is a HUGE difference between allowing safe, supervised exposure to bad things and my kids ever being allowed to participate in or support such actions.

 

I've actually enjoyed this debate with you Peek a Boo. Please understand that I in no way feel that my way is any more right than yours.I make mistakes every day and I am constantly learning.

 

I may find out in 20 years that I regret some of my decisions. On the other hand, I'm sure that there will probably be some decision that I'll be glad I made.

 

From talking to you I can tell that you love your children very much. They are lucky to have you. Oh what our world would be like if every mom loved their kids as much.

 

Thank you for debating with me. I hope that you can take from this what it is. Simply a difference of opinions. No hard feelings here. I hope you feel the same. :001_smile:

 

mommyrooch

[Peek a Boo]

definitely no hard feelings!

and drats- I'm over my quota for smilies so i had to eliminate a lot --just imagine them sprinkled here and there, lol....

 

I thought I made it pretty clear with my comment about absolutely not allowing this behavior in my children or in my home.

 

Again, I will however let them see the negative effects that drugs and alcohol has on others so they "understand" why these things are so dangerous and destructive. That way hopefully, they won't feel the need to find out for themselves. I think we can agree that this kind or behavior is what we would both like to avoid in our kids.

 

agreed :)

I simply disagree that "safe" exposure is necessarily the best way to accomplish that.

 

Do you really believe just telling a kid about ancient civilizations would have as much impact on them as going there and seeing for themselves? ....

 

 

I'm sure it DOESN't have as much impact --that's part of the reason for AVOIDING the negative influences [even "safe" exposure] as much as possible, period ;) One doesn't have to necessarily understand completely a certain point to be able to react rationally regardless that "tangibly incomplete understanding."

 

NO! my kids do not disobey me continually. I have great kids that actually mind quite well.

 

Up until now this conversation was very civil but this comment of yours was pretty mean. :sad: I did NOT in any way address your children personally in this conversation and I absolutely under no circumstances ever would! I don't know your kids and I make no assumptions to. For all I know you have the kindest children imaginable.

 

I wasn't making assumptions: I was responding directly to what YOU said.

My kids can be brats at times: freely admitted. They must get it from their dad.... ;)

 

I however cannot expect that so I will raise them up in the way they "should" go. Did you catch that? "SHOULD GO!" Not necessarily will go. Even the Bible predicts these downfalls. It doesn't instruct us to raise our children up in the way the WILL go. It tells us to raise them up in the way they SHOULD go. We are then assured that if we do this then when they are OLD they will not part from it. Proverbs 22:6. It doesn't say anything about them not departing from it when they are kids.

 

yup. This is a BIG reason that manymanymany parents forego any "safe" exposure to wrong ideas: those AREN't the "way they SHOULD go" --it is specifically showing them ways they should NOT go. It desensitizes them, especially on repeat exposures, regardless of discussion.

 

Again, The world isn't going to wait outside our doors those "dozen" years of instruction. The devil and sin will make it's way into our children's lives before they are grown. We must be diligent and proactive in the protection and preparation of our children.

 

yup. Back to the whole "way they SHOULD go" argument.

 

I can't help but resent this a bit. I have NEVER pushed the envelope when it comes to my kids and their safety. They are never allowed to be "exposed" to anything, even movies, unless it is under my husbands and my VERY careful supervision.

 

There is a HUGE difference between allowing my children to have very supervised, controlled exposure to things and letting them be dangerously exposed.

 

::handing mommyrooch the rhino skin coat::

...and many would consider exposure to things that aren't right to be "unsafe" whether there's parental supervision or not. I tend to be paranoid about my dc's physical location too- wackos abound.... But i also realize that some people are just as paranoid about what goes into their bodies [sights and sounds] as we are about where their bodies are. Some people do not consider what you/we are doing as a "HUGE difference." And I say that as someone who operates a lot like you do.

 

Did you even read my previous post? I believe my exact words were "I will NEVER allow my kids to drink, smoke, do drugs, curse, engage in violence etc. etc. etc." Not unless it over my dead body! I also CLEARLY stated that I believe that it is vitally important that they grow up with tolerance and kindness for all people. May I suggest that you accurately read the posts of others before you ask them a sarcastic question.

 

i did read it- every word.

and as Christ said: even considering those types of things makes one as guilty as DOING them. He wasn't sarcastic about it either. at least, i don't THINK He was being sarcastic..... Which is why manymanymany parents won't introduce those concepts to their children, even in a "safe" environment.

 

 

Oh, and there is often times a NEED to expose them to the nastiness. Our world sure will if we don't. We just NEED to do it in a way that is highly monitered and safe for our children.

 

I think the response would be: but parents --as PROTECTORS and TEACHERS-- should not be the ones introducing the nastiness. They [dc] should be warned specifically that nastiness comes from nasty people, not parents who have been placed by God to protect and guide them.

 

 

:iagree: There are many ways to teach our children and I commend you for what you're doing with the meals on wheels program. Kudos mom!:thumbup1:

 

dittos! :thumbup1:

 

 

 

Soap is still soap. Now matter how filthy it gets if you keep rubbing it it will come clean. There's a whole lot of filth in this world and contamination is guaranteed. Our view of contamination is different. I don't consider it contamination if my children are being safely supervised while being taught about tough issues. I do consider it contamination if I or they condone these things, if they participate in these things, have friends that do these things etc. etc. Again, there is a HUGE difference between allowing safe, supervised exposure to bad things and my kids ever being allowed to participate in or support such actions.

 

If the contaminate is mingled w/in so badly that it CAN't be rubbed clean, the soap is completely ineffective. Or to borrow from scripture: the salt has lost its saltiness.

 

 

I've actually enjoyed this debate with you Peek a Boo. Please understand that I in no way feel that my way is any more right than yours.I make mistakes every day and I am constantly learning.

 

you betcha-- please remember why i posted in the first place [#139]: merely to offer The Other Side's reasons, not necessarily to condemn y/ours.

 

Since this is a widely-read discussion board w/ LOTS of different people, I find it even more important to engage in these sorts of discussions. I have seen a lot of discussion lately from people who are simply SHOCKED at what other parents choose/do. i simply hope to inform others.

 

One thing I have had to be ready to do is politely ignore other family's criticisms: whether they think I am being too permissive or simply creating cloned robots who are incapable of independent thought :D

[asta]

why wouldn't those count??

 

1. During the individual therapy, the therapist and patient work towards improving skill use. Often, skills group is discussed and obstacles to acting skillfully are addressed.

 

2.learns to use specific skills

 

sounds like some sort of instruction is being used in both parts?? how does a therapist intend to help a patient improve skill use if there's no teaching/training/instruction or form of communication to elicit a particular response??

 

my entire point is that there is some form of training/ teaching/ instruction going on, and that parents can absolutely use training/ teaching/ instruction at home to help guide a child to good choices. Jedi seemed to be arguing against using any training/teaching/instruction techniques on a child, but seems fine that a professional is going to use some sort of training/teaching/instruction on a child. She can clarify if i have read her incorrectly though.

 

eta: I asked Now, if you are aware of a form of psychology where no change is expected in the client or no teaching/ communication technique is ever conducted, yes, i would be VERY interested -sincerely- in knowing about it.

 

Boy - totally missed the point on this one!

 

I was saying DBT would NOT count in your assessment of "therapy without requiring teaching", Peek.

 

 

asta

[Peek a Boo]

Boy - totally missed the point on this one!

 

I was saying DBT would NOT count in your assessment of "therapy without requiring teaching", Peek.

 

 

asta

apparently i did miss your point. :)

 

since my question was asking for one that DOESN't require any form of teaching/training/instruction-- and I'm hard pressed to think of ANY therapy that doesn't include some form of teaching/training/instruction-- i guess I'm kinda confused on why you would share just that one?