Q re: Why do people use religious curricula

[Kate CA]

Thanks for asking, Kate. :001_smile:

 

I have been told by the publisher that they are aiming to have it available by July (book 1 only; book 2 should be ready by Spring 2010... although I just checked the website and don't see either listed under "Coming in 2009" or "In Production", hmmm....). I am in the process of scrambling to get (what I hope are) the final edits done by the end of this month so that the designers can finally nail-down the necessary illustrations and work on finalizing the layout. Book One focuses on the kingdom Animalia; Book Two focuses on Plantae. They have a naturalist/ discovery perspective and integrate with Latin and Greek and include Literature suggestions for each chapter. Last I heard, the designers were planning on giving the student books the feel of the DK Eyewitness books. We have only discussed casually books 3-5 (in which I plan to cover Earth Science, Chemistry/ Physics, and Human Anatomy/ Intro. to Microbiology, respectively). If the first one does well, I guess we'll talk about the last 3 more seriously :D ... although I have started roughing out book 3 already (power of positive thinking and all that).

 

Again, thanks for asking. I'll let you know more when I know more.

 

Oh, that is so exciting! You must be thrilled. If there is a mailing list you are gather with interested parties, please put me on it. underthesky@gmail.com I am really looking forward to your science curriculum. I am happy to hear it is going so well. July is not that far away and I hope the fact that it isn't listed on the publisher's site is just a small oversight! Can I ask what publisher you are going with? Feel free to email me privately. I know some of this you probably don't want on the net forever. ;)

[mnllj7]

I think alot of parents use christian material to teach their children a particular worldview. Every thing we use, and what we teach, lends them to a particular worldview. I prefer to teach my dd a Christian worldview. I dont use a quote "Christian Math Program" but I want her to see everything through the eyes of scripture. I want her to make her decisions based on scripture and learn that all history is God's story. My language arts, Math, Latin, and alot of the reading is not from a Christian perspective, however, Through teaching scripture. We can discuss what we agree or disagree with in the readings. Also I beleive just because there is a scripture verse on the page, or like math using mary and joseph as examples are not teaching the child anything about God's word. I think alot of curricula that is considered

"Christian" is not. unless God's word is taught the "Theology". It is really a waste of time. HTH, God bless, nancyt.:)

[Peek a Boo]

Secondly, there is evolution, which is a fact, and then there is Evolution, which is a theory. This is *part* of the reason that you may hear people speak of it as if it were a fact. Biological evolution simply means a change in gene frequency in a population over time. This is a directly observable, measurable, quantifiable fact. Evolutionary Theory, in a nutshell, says that biological evolution can account for the biodiversity of life on Earth. This part is the theory. But as with many other scientific theories, such as Atomic Theory, once you have sufficient supporting evidence, it generally gets accepted as truth, even though it is not fact. So that's the second reason you will hear scientists speak of it as if it is simply a given.

 

I think that is a great explanation, and explains why so many Christians DO use Christian science materials: we tend to differ on what "sufficient" means. ;)

I would likely rephrase it: Evolution [capital E] is accepted as fact in the science community, even though it has not been proven as truth.

Facts change as our observations become clearer. Truth is eternal. :D

 

But at this time I would refer others to one of the great Evolution threads we've already had for more on that:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37850

[Paintedlady]

For those who don't know...

 

Quote:

 

Flavor Aid is a non-carbonated soft drink beverage made by Jel Sert in West Chicago, Illinois, introduced in 1929. It is sold throughout the United States as a unsweetened powdered concentrate drink mix, similar to Kool-Aid drink mix.

 

 

Very weird. I live in West Chicago. Not exactly the kind of thing you want to be known for. :001_huh:

[MommyJo]

I wanted to answer your question, but after reading this thread, I'm not sure I believe your original statement. It seems more like you're shaking your head and rolling your eyes at those of us "drinking the kool-aid." I don't believe I'll bother now, except to say that if you want honest diaglogue, it helps to not insult those you're querying.

 

I completely agree with you. I had stopped by to honestly answer this question but after reading most of the replies I was mortified at the content.

To the original poster: It's very hard to believe that you honestly want a reply from anyone except so that you can "prove your point", which to me is unclear what that would be. Like others said, why do you care what others teach their children? I think that's something that is more or less THEIR business and by coming on here with comments like "drink the kool-aid" you are only creating a very unrespectable front for yourself. It cannot be that you have a genuine concern. I feel more or less mocked by your posts.

If you want my honest opinion, the reason that there are so many religous materials is because of the demand and because, as another poster pointed out, these publishers feel a calling to get the word of God out. Secular material companies have their target audience...schools. They make millions off of schools by driving up crazy high prices and distribute them because they know that schools HAVE to buy secular materials. Why waste time with the guppies when you can reel in the big fish? Christian publishers, however, only have the homeschooling audience and Christian private schools to market to. If you want secular materials so bad, check out some used book sites for old school textbooks, etc. They are completely secular and you can rewrite them however you want to make it fit your family. As for my family and I, we choose to serve the Lord and if we can find a curriculum that refers to Biblical teaching that will WORK for our children, then we will use it. I am using a secular handwriting program even though we started out with A Reason for Handwriting because that's what works for us. You could be missing out on some really good curriculum that would "work" for your children if you would get over what seems like a religious phobia. In our family, we believe that He called us to homeschooling for a reason and one of the reasons was so that my children wouldn't get mocked for praying before lunch by children referring to their religion with home-taught phrases such as "drink the kool aid".:thumbdown:You came on a public board, knowing there are probably tons of Christian homeschooling mothers, and mocked and degraded our religion. Kids learn from their parents examples, ya know? That's part of the reason this country is the way it is and filled with so much hatred.

[Mari]

Can we just get on without all the political correctness ranting and raving??? I think we all get the message. Some are offended and others of us would like to just stay on topic, for goodness sakes. Even the OP admitted the error of her ways. Can we just stop the hypersensitivity and forgive her already?

[SherryTX]

Yes, it does. But it still leaves me wondering what the innocent murdered children drank. Or were the 294 children included in the figure as "fools."

 

I realize you guys are joking, but it's just so hard for me to see it as a joke. Go ahead, call me PC, I can take it:)

 

the fools are the ones that willingly drank it. The poor saps and are the ones that were murdered (not just all the kids, but some adults that had second thoughts). It is a devastatingly horrible story - and I wasn't trying to make light of it. But while it is such a little detail that seems trite, I feel compelled to correct it. It's a quirk I have.

 

But see, phrases, sayings, etc., are always bound to come out of history. Even sick and sad parts of history like Jonestown. I guess the biggest reason is that I feel compelled to correct it (besides me just feeling anal retentive today) is because - heck - we are focused on teaching our kids about history. I would like to be corrected if I got something wrong, even if it is trite.

 

But enough about me...=)

Edited April 7, 2009 by SherryTX

[SherryTX]

For those who don't know...

 

Quote:

 

Flavor Aid is a non-carbonated soft drink beverage made by Jel Sert in West Chicago, Illinois, introduced in 1929. It is sold throughout the United States as a unsweetened powdered concentrate drink mix, similar to Kool-Aid drink mix.

 

Jonestown suicide

 

Main article: Jonestown

Around 914 followers of Jim Jones committed suicide or were murdered by drinking or allegedly being forced to drink cyanide-laced grape Flavor Aid in 1978.[2] Erroneous references to the mass suicide, in combination with existing references to The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test of the Merry Pranksters, gave rise to the saying "Don't drink the Kool-Aid" as a reference to those who blindly follow an authority even if it leads to serious harm or death. A camera from inside the compound shows a large chest being opened showing boxes of both drinks.[3] There is also testimony from criminal investigators at the Jonestown inquest stating that there were "cool aid" (sic) packets there.[4] It is unknown whether these are a reference to the Kool-aid brand packets from the trunk, or simply a generic use of the more popular brand for the product.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavor_Aid

 

AHHHHH.....I totally forgot about the the electric kool aid test -

 

Thank you for pointing that out - I just saw your post now and I appreciate it!

[SherryTX]

Absolutely true. I've watched my own sons' Christian foundations be eroded by the secular college environment. I'm glad I made that foundation as solid as possible before sending them into that world.

 

And I have seen just the opposite (I am referring to extreme religion - one case in particular where a perfectly reasonable friend went to college, and got involved with a very religious campus group. Studies out the window - kinda of through her life off track for a few years before she realized that things had gone too far. I realize this is of course, the exception rather than the rule.)

 

I think sometimes the fear that some religious parents have of their kids getting corrupted is similar to the fear some secular parents have of their kids becoming religious.

Edited April 7, 2009 by SherryTX
for spelling - I cannot spell tonight!

[asta]

You came on a public board, knowing there are probably tons of Christian homeschooling mothers, and mocked and degraded our religion. Kids learn from their parents examples, ya know? That's part of the reason this country is the way it is and filled with so much hatred.

 

No, I did not mock your religion. I wrote:

When I first started homeschooling DS in 5th grade, every other HSer I knew was using a religious curriculum. And I don't mean "well, it was printed at Memoria Press"; I mean RELIGIOUS - as in, even the word problems in mathematics were along the lines of "If Joseph walked 3 miles in one direction, and Mary walked 2 miles toward home..."

 

If I am insulting anyone here, it is the publisher of whatever that math text was.

 

I did not tell anyone that what they were doing was wrong. I wrote that I was stunned. ME. I made no judgement on what anyone here was doing.

On top of that, part of me really wonders what a couple of generations of religiously homeschooled (as opposed to homeschooled with religion) youth are going to face if/when they go to (non-religious) colleges. Just as I feel it is my duty to teach DS theology (it exists, he needs to know it), I am stunned by the number of people who don't teach evolution based science, literature other than biblical, etc.

 

And I also wrote a follow-up post about Kool-aid (as it was asinine to edit the first one since it had already been quoted in toto).

Since I seem to be somewhat less politically correct than many on this board would like, please let me clarify and correct any misconceptions on my point.

 

First, for anyone I may have offended, I’d like to explain that I come from a community were the “drinking the kool-aid†is commonly used and is not considered offensive regardless of the context. A sincere apology for this was not my intent.

 

Therefore I’ll rephrase the sentence in question to open this up for an intellectual vice emotional discussion.

 

I don't think one has to believe in evolution, but the argument "it's not true!" would inevitably lead to public ridicule and academic failure in any non-religious university lecture hall. Since we all want our children to succeed, it stands to reason that more people developing curriculum and/or publishing companies should be presenting both sides of this issue if they wish what is best for these young adults in the vast majority of university settings.

 

I did not mention any particular religion in my OP or my follow-up postings, other than once to say the word "biblical" (and the bible is acknowledged by many religious sects). I mentioned a specific math text my child had seen, and other posters commented that they had seen similar ones.

 

As to evolution, SecularMom understood exactly what I was referring to:

First, I'll admit I haven't read ALL of the replies. Second, I have seen several posts that seem to imply that Asta is saying that all religious people are drinking poisoned Kool-aid. :confused: Am I just totally off base?

See, when *I* read this, I heard her saying that religious people don't have to drink the "evolution kool-aid" and buy into a theory they don't believe in, but that it needs to be taught to their children.

 

To other people who keep mentioning PS textbooks, I also commented about NOT wanting to use classroom materials. Of any religious persuasion (just to be clear - that sentence means I don't want to use classroom textbooks from secular publishers, christian publishers, muslim publishers, buddhist publishers, or any other worldview).

 

I want High School level home school materials that let me decide where it is appropriate to insert a lesson on faith and or religion.

 

Is that clear enough?

 

Has anyone thought to turn my OP around? How would anyone here feel if they had extreme difficulty in finding curricula to fit their worldview?

 

I mistakenly thought I could ask a question and not be attacked for it just because I didn't prefer to use a particular type of curriculum.

 

And while I'm on the subject of assumptions: has it occurred to anyone that NO ONE here knows my religious or faith persuasion? Or that my desire not to use certain curricula could possibly be based in the premise that what I have found doesn't work for my teenager?

 

We are all on a "Classical" homeschooling board because we (I thought) should be teaching our children critical thinking, rhetoric, and logic. Yet, I have been attacked with strawman arguments, ad hominem attacks - the works; but at least I received some thoughtful responses, and for that I am grateful.

 

I have lived all over the world, and in distinctly religious areas, and I have never seen the hate such as what spews from the home school community when asking a question that relates to religion.

 

It makes ME antsy. If you are not sitting here with me, in my home, that has NO effect on you.

 

 

asta

[chaik76]

 

 

 

Has anyone thought to turn my OP around? How would anyone here feel if they had extreme difficulty in finding curricula to fit their worldview?

 

I

Actually, I took no offense at your original post whatsoever and have not commented until now because of the turn the thread has taken. (The kool-aid comment didn't even phase me...most of the people I know use it. It's become a cultural phrase, and I don't believe there is harm in that.) My children are very, very young yet, so I haven't had to look at high school curricula. I regularly bemoan the lack of secular homeschool materials...they just aren't readily available. I find it exceptionally difficult to find materials that fit our worldview. We're Eastern Orthoodox, and almost without exception, Protestant homeschool curricula is extremely hard to adapt to our teaching methods. I much prefer secular curricula, specifically because it is much easier to add our worldview to it, than it is to subtract a worldview we don't believe in, and then add in our own.

And to be honest, I usually agree more with what secular books have to say. I do wish more was available. Hopefully, since the range of homeschoolers is broadening, more will be available in the future.

Edited April 7, 2009 by chaik76

[MommyJo]

Let me first start by saying that when I originally hit the reply quote-whatever button there were not so many pages. I left my laptop for awhile to cook and eat dinner with my family and when I came back, had finished up and clicked send. There were not that many posts when I originally replied. The board must have taken off while I was eating so I have no clue what was said from the last post that I read. Also, I usually don't sit around and read 12 pages of posts including ones that go back and forth, back and forth. Anyways, I would reply A) it's pointless, people only believe what they want to and B) I believe this thread has gotten enough attention, time for a new one to go to the top.

[TravelingChris]

I am using Calvert 8 this year with my youngest. They have a secular science book (McGraw Hill). At first, my daughter liked it because it has nots of photographs. As time went on, she noticed the explanations were rather sparse. The other day, she was studying fungi and remarked that she only knew the answers because of the Rod and Staff science that she had for 4th and 5th (two years of life science). We went with Calvert when our homeschool academy that she was all set to go to suddenly disappeared in mid August right before it was supposed to start. SHe had been slated to go to that and get most of her academic work assigned there and I would supervise and supplement (science and math). So we quickly changed to Calvert to have her do a set amount of work per day and less hassle for me. It is a secular program. I have had to add religous content to many areas but not to math and so far, not much to science. The problem with the science is not that God is mentioned or not but rather that the level of instruction is less than I would want.

 

I am considering what we will use with her next year and am strongly considering BJU DVD or computer since I think she would do better with a lecture by a teacher and mainly because I know the science is so much more rigorous and she is interested in science.

 

I have used math materials in the past that have had Bible verses or puzzles in the shape of a cross. It wasn't why I chose the program. I don't think it added anything to my child's faith but it didn't detract either.

[asta]

Christina,

 

How would you rate Lightning Lit on content? (since you have a teen as well)

 

 

asta

[TravelingChris]

I asked my daughter and she couldn't remember any specific Christian content. She says she is aware of that in BJU Chemistry but couldn't remember anything in the LL. So I read the section about Edgar Allan Poe and The Telltale Heart and thought if it had Christian content, it may have some in there. It didn't. It doesn't even have it in Moby Dick which definitely has theological undertones. For that, I am adding lectures from The Teaching Company which I hipe will go into the various allusions more indepth.

[Carrie12345]

2. Others wonder about the sincerity of the OP's original question, given the kool-aid comment and her later comment about how curriculum that preaches a certain religion makes her antsy.

 

I don't see how that compromises sincerity. Giving my kids religious curriculum makes me antsy. "Secular" curriculum that touches on certain aspects of religion makes me antsy. It's not a direction I'm comfortable with.

 

When my 10yo was working on a Junior Great Books story that focused on Catholic mass, I was antsy. Trying to explain (especially to an aspie) the motivation for monetary offering out of guilt over receiving money under false pretenses is very difficult in a household where the different branches of Christianity haven't yet been explored. It lead to a theological discussion I'd prefer to have had with a more mature child, and distracted from the actual lesson.

 

That's what it is in our house- a distraction. Much like when my dd is working on a word problem that involves slices of pizza and turns into a debate on the best pizzas and whether or not we can get some for dinner ;).

[Laura K (NC)]

There is no "motivation for monetary offering out of guilt over receiving money under false pretenses" that has anything to do with Catholic Mass.

[Laura K (NC)]

The truth is never inconsistent with Jesus Christ. Christians should, however, fear a secular version of "truth" when its aim is to compromise real Truth and salvation.

[Carrie12345]

There is no "motivation for monetary offering out of guilt over receiving money under false pretenses" that has anything to do with Catholic Mass.

 

It was *in this story*. Which, for me, is just another reason not to put it there. I'm not sure how I can be expected to give a 10yo a lesson involving a theme he wouldn't understand when it isn't even a "proper" message for a particular religion!

[asta]

The truth is never inconsistent with Jesus Christ. Christians should, however, fear a secular version of "truth" when its aim is to compromise real Truth and salvation.

 

What is this in reference to?

 

 

asta

[Laura K (NC)]

Are you able to see the threaded version?

 

She said that some secular homeschoolers fear religious programs just like some religious homeschoolers fear the secular programs.

[Heather in Neverland]

Asta,

 

I don't have a problem with the "kool-aid" phrase...it is used pretty commonly and I'm not very PC anyways.

 

I do understand your need for secular homeschooling materials even though I don't use them very often. The demand has just not been there maybe until recently so perhaps in the near future it will be. I would feel the same way if I needed Christian materials and couldn't find any.

 

As others have pointed out, more Christians actually DO teach their children about other points of view than not so I am sure they will all be fine when they go to college (Christian or secular).

 

Your original question as to WHY people use religious materials has been answered and WHY aren't there many secular materials available has been answered as well (some more respectfully than others).

 

We are all getting a little touchy about things (myself included) and when we do we start making this sweeping statements about people being "afraid" of secular matierials or "afraid" of Christian materials. If you are firmly grounded in your beliefs you have no reason to fear.

 

I hope you are able to find what you are looking for just as I am grateful to have what I need for my kids. :grouphug:

[asta]

Asta,

 

I don't have a problem with the "kool-aid" phrase...it is used pretty commonly and I'm not very PC anyways.

 

I do understand your need for secular homeschooling materials even though I don't use them very often. The demand has just not been there maybe until recently so perhaps in the near future it will be. I would feel the same way if I needed Christian materials and couldn't find any.

 

As others have pointed out, more Christians actually DO teach their children about other points of view than not so I am sure they will all be fine when they go to college (Christian or secular).

 

Your original question as to WHY people use religious materials has been answered and WHY aren't there many secular materials available has been answered as well (some more respectfully than others).

 

We are all getting a little touchy about things (myself included) and when we do we start making this sweeping statements about people being "afraid" of secular matierials or "afraid" of Christian materials. If you are firmly grounded in your beliefs you have no reason to fear.

I hope you are able to find what you are looking for just as I am grateful to have what I need for my kids. :grouphug:

 

I didn't make that (bolded) statement.

 

I agree that people have answered the question.

 

 

asta

[Laura K (NC)]

nt

[Jenny in Atl]

What is this in reference to?

 

 

asta

 

:lurk5:

What is the definition of secular? I have always wondered...

 

1 a: of or relating to the worldly or temporal <secular concerns> b: not overtly or specifically religious <secular music> c: not ecclesiastical or clerical <secular courts> <secular landowners>

 

2: not bound by monastic vows or rules ; specifically : of, relating to, or forming clergy not belonging to a religious order or congregation <a secular priest>

 

3 a: occurring once in an age or a century b: existing or continuing through ages or centuries c: of or relating to a long term of indefinite duration <secular inflation>

 

Again, one faith's "truth" may not look the same to another's. And it seems from a number of posts in this thread, that secular is in a way a faith as well. This all gets very confusing.

[Vida Winter]

I'm not taking the time to read all the posts in this thread, but I just wanted to add my own take.

 

There are good materials out there from both religious and secular sources. I try to use the best from whatever category they come from. If there is a difference from our own faith, it is discussed. Sometimes, there is a wonderful tie-in with our faith, as in the Latin prayers my dd's have learned from Memoria Press materials. For specific religious instruction, we go to church.

 

Use whatever curriculum you like with confidence. Don't worry about what your neighbor is using. If someone else bugs you about your choices, practice your serene smile and, I don't know, get a sudden urge to go to the restroom, just get away from that person.

[Heather in Neverland]

I didn't make that (bolded) statement.

 

I agree that people have answered the question.

 

 

asta

 

I never said you made that statement (I was just summarizing) and I was trying to be supportive of you. :confused:

[asta]

I never said you made that statement (I was just summarizing) and I was trying to be supportive of you. :confused:

 

Oh, I knew you weren't being snarky - I have just experienced a few misconceptions in this thread and I didn't want someone coming in to think I'd said that, too.

 

Thank you for understanding.

 

 

asta

[Rhonda in TX]

For me it is about worldview. We are devout Christians so we look at EVERYTHING from a biblical perspective (picture putting on a pair of biblical glasses). The Bible is the source of truth in our lives and anything that contradicts the Bible is not truth. So we don't compartmentalize our faith, it precedes and permeates everything we do. Teaching all the academic subjects and then teaching "religion" separately is not God-honoring to us.

 

Having said that, we DO teach about other faiths, other scientific theories, etc. It is important to us that our children know what is believed by others as they need to be able to defend their faith. This past weekend my ds and dh went on an outing with the youth group to the Ohio Caverns. During the tour, my ds got into a lively yet respectful discussion with the tour guide about the age of the caves. He could not have done that if he did not know both sides of the argument.

 

So we do use some secular and some Christian materials and I agree with other posters that the supply of secular homeschool materials will be greater when demand is greater.

 

I completely agree with this.

 

Believe, my children are not sheltered from the secular viewpoint. It is everywhere. I think those that are non-Christians don't even see it, but it permeates our society. We are constantly having discussions about non-Christian topics.

 

We watch TV. We listen to Christian and secular songs. We see Christian and secular movies. We read Christian and secular books. And yes, we use a lot of Christian curriculum, but we also use some from secular sources (hard not to when you're curriculum is literature-based).

[harmonyartmom]

Many of you know that I pulled together plans for art and music appreciation using the suggestions in TWTM....I have to tell you that just about every week I get an email asking me if those plans are "Christian". At first I was sort of taken aback because I had never thought about whether they were "Christian" or not. I realized quickly that many people would not purchase the plans if I didn't put them in a certain category, either way, Christian or secular.

 

I haven't marketed them as "Christian" and purposefully have left them neutral so families can insert their particular beliefs as they want to. By taking this stand I have eliminated some of the potential market but that is perfectly fine with me.

 

There is no easy line in some instances. Renaissance art is religious and there is no way around it. You are going to have paintings of Jesus, angels, saints, Mary, etc. It is part of history and I didn't include them to make my plans "Christian".

 

I am a Christian so I would have to probably say that I pulled the books, paintings, and music together from my worldview. I never sat down with the books and combed them to see if they fit a "Christian" point of view or not. I looked for the best materials to present the best in art and music appreciation and sometimes those are very secular in nature....like Usborne Books.

 

Bottom line: Curriculum companies are in business to make money and they will produce what they can sell. I know that some will argue that Christian companies are selling their materials as a way to spread the Word but they wouldn't do so if there were no market for what they produced.

 

On a personal note: I chose mostly so-called Christian materials because I find it easier to add in opposing views than to constantly be editing out things in secular materials that bug me. We take opportunities to introduce things like evolution in ways that don't need a textbook. We read National Geographic, go to natural history museums, watch a variety of nature videos and take the time to read library books together and then discuss how the ideas all fit together with our family's beliefs.

 

Just another point of view,

Barb

[Carrie12345]

 

On a personal note: I chose mostly so-called Christian materials because I find it easier to add in opposing views than to constantly be editing out things in secular materials that bug me. We take opportunities to introduce things like evolution in ways that don't need a textbook. We read National Geographic, go to natural history museums, watch a variety of nature videos and take the time to read library books together and then discuss how the ideas all fit together with our family's beliefs.

 

Just another point of view,

Barb

 

I think that's what it comes down to for many, regardless of which personal belief system they follow. It's simply easier to add than to subtract or revise.

[AuntPol]

I am a conservative Christian but happen to be a theistic evolutionist. I homeschool for academic reasons more than religious, but like that I am not bound to a socialist view of the world as many schools are. I have no problem with Christian materials if they make sense in the context. We read Pilgrim's Progress, have devotions, study the Bible, do memory work, discuss religion as it happens in our literature and history, etc.

 

However, I do personally dislike the tendency of a lot of companies to tack on religion to every single lesson. It is too fake and forced for my individual taste. I don't personally feel the need to prove my faith by having a Bible verse on the bottom of every spelling page. God is great on his own merits and doesn't need me to force feed my children for them to be nourished. On the other hand, other Christians may be at a different point in their relationship with God and may "need" that extra verse. The beauty of homeschooling is we can do as we feel God leads us personally.

[Peek a Boo]

:lurk5:

What is the definition of secular? I have always wondered...

.....

 

Again, one faith's "truth" may not look the same to another's. And it seems from a number of posts in this thread, that secular is in a way a faith as well. This all gets very confusing.

 

Kind of:

 

secular simply means that it is not based on a recognized religion worshiping some form of deity. What posters have [most likely] been concerned w/ when it comes to "secular" materials is that secular is not the same as "free from bias or political influence." And many* Christians notice a very strong bias in many* secular materials. ;)

 

*note: that's many, not all :)

[Veritaserum]

:iagree:

I am a conservative Christian but happen to be a theistic evolutionist. I homeschool for academic reasons more than religious, but like that I am not bound to a socialist view of the world as many schools are. I have no problem with Christian materials if they make sense in the context. We read Pilgrim's Progress, have devotions, study the Bible, do memory work, discuss religion as it happens in our literature and history, etc.

 

However, I do personally dislike the tendency of a lot of companies to tack on religion to every single lesson. It is too fake and forced for my individual taste. I don't personally feel the need to prove my faith by having a Bible verse on the bottom of every spelling page. God is great on his own merits and doesn't need me to force feed my children for them to be nourished. On the other hand, other Christians may be at a different point in their relationship with God and may "need" that extra verse. The beauty of homeschooling is we can do as we feel God leads us personally.

[mommyrooch]

On top of that, part of me really wonders what a couple of generations of religiously homeschooled (as opposed to homeschooled with religion) youth are going to face if/when they go to (non-religious) colleges. Just as I feel it is my duty to teach DS theology (it exists, he needs to know it), I am stunned by the number of people who don't teach evolution based science, literature other than biblical, etc. I don't think one has to drink the kool-aid (eg: many people don't believe in evolution - fine - but the argument "it's not true!" doesn't hold water in a university science lecture), but why aren't more people teaching / more companies publishing both sides of issues, secular and religious?

 

:iagree: I am a Christian but I so completely agree with your comments. My husband and I have discussed this exact thing many times. We are Christian but we are firm believers that even though we may not agree with certain things we want our kids educated about them.

 

Here is one example. I have MANY homeschooling friends that don't agree with my views. Many of them flat out won't let their kids watch a PG 13 movie because of the language etc. I disagree with this. I do filter things my kids watch but I don't ban a movie just because it's PG 13. If it has cursing in it but is a great movie I let me kids watch it. I use this as a learning opportunity. We just teach them that "We don't say that." or "We don't believe that way." I don't think sheltering my kids from the "bads in the world is doing them any favors. I firmly believe that my kids need to learn about and be exposed to these things. When they are grown and gone they will most definitely face them in life and I want them prepared when they do. I don't want them learning about many of these issues from others. I want them to learn about them from their father and I and they certainly won't do that by being sheltered from the real world.

 

As far as academic. :iagree:there too. I am a Christian but I also have issues with many homeschooling mindsets that completely rule out evolution. I do believe in evolution to a certain extent. I believe as a species (or any species for that matter) that we have to evolve in order to survive. I want my kids to understand the scientific reasons why this is necessary as well as the Christian belief that God is in control of it all.

 

I also don't believe in a literal 7 days of creation. There is just too much scientic evidence to support that our earth is an old earth. Does this mean that I don't believe the Bible? Absolutely NOT! I just think that it is a very slippery slope though to pick and choose things in the Bible as being literal. The Bible also clearly states that if our left eye cause us to sin then we are to pluck it out, but how many of us are ripping our eyes out everytime we see a cute guy or gal?

 

Many Christians take 7 days of creation as literal but won't even think about plucking their eyes out. I believe that it is hypocritical to pick and choose the parts of the Bible that we want to believe as literal. If these young earth believers choose to take this part of the Bible as literal then they better start plucking their eyes out because the Bible says that too.

 

I believe that God provided us with the Bible as a guideline, not an absolute. After all, our relationships with God are personal and the good book is his way of communicating with us. One passage may touch one persons heart in one way and it will touch the next persons in another.

 

Anyway, I too don't want to start any fights here. These are just my thoughts.

 

Bottom line, I personally want my children exposed to both the Christian persective and the secular perspective on things. I want them educated and prepared for all views and things they will face in life. Sheltering them from certain things just because we don't agree with them is a dangerous thing to do in my opinion. It is my job as their mother to prepare them for the goods AND bads in life. Even it they are tough or taboo subjects. I want them prepared for things when they come across them. Not hit in the face with them like a Mack truck. Sheltering them simply is not the answer because the world sure isn't going to cater to them. The world will require them to live in it whether they agree with everything or not. It is my job to train them in the right way, the christian way, to live in this world. Simply pretending that these issues don't exist is dangerous.

 

Just my $.02

[AnnetteB]

We enjoy our BJU, A Beka, Progeny Press, and other Christian texts. There is nothing wrong with counting sheep instead of lollipops, etc. The scattered verses are encouraging. In grammar and writing our worldview would have us be encouraging with our words. In math and finances we try to be exact. Our Christian health books are very different from secular health units in the ps. I feel that we are being consistent with our children by bringing our values into all subject areas. The ps system has a different world view than we do and we introduce the dc to that also, but we are unashamed Christians.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

:iagree: I am a Christian but I so completely agree with your comments. My husband and I have discussed this exact thing many times. We are Christian but we are firm believers that even though we may not agree with certain things we want our kids educated about them.

 

Here is one example. I have MANY homeschooling friends that don't agree with my views. Many of them flat out won't let their kids watch a PG 13 movie because of the language etc. I disagree with this. I do filter things my kids watch but I don't ban a movie just because it's PG 13. If it has cursing in it but is a great movie I let me kids watch it. I use this as a learning opportunity. We just teach them that "We don't say that." or "We don't believe that way." I don't think sheltering my kids from the "bads in the world is doing them any favors. I firmly believe that my kids need to learn about and be exposed to these things. When they are grown and gone they will most definitely face them in life and I want them prepared when they do. I don't want them learning about many of these issues from others. I want them to learn about them from their father and I and they certainly won't do that by being sheltered from the real world.

 

As far as academic. :iagree:there too. I am a Christian but I also have issues with many homeschooling mindsets that completely rule out evolution. I do believe in evolution to a certain extent. I believe as a species (or any species for that matter) that we have to evolve in order to survive. I want my kids to understand the scientific reasons why this is necessary as well as the Christian belief that God is in control of it all.

 

I also don't believe in a literal 7 days of creation. There is just too much scientic evidence to support that our earth is an old earth. Does this mean that I don't believe the Bible? Absolutely NOT! I just think that it is a very slippery slope though to pick and choose things in the Bible as being literal. The Bible also clearly states that if our left eye cause us to sin then we are to pluck it out, but how many of us are ripping our eyes out everytime we see a cute guy or gal?

 

Many Christians take 7 days of creation as literal but won't even think about plucking their eyes out. I believe that it is hypocritical to pick and choose the parts of the Bible that we want to believe as literal. If these young earth believers choose to take this part of the Bible as literal then they better start plucking their eyes out because the Bible says that too.

 

I believe that God provided us with the Bible as a guideline, not an absolute. After all, our relationships with God are personal and the good book is his way of communicating with us. One passage may touch one persons heart in one way and it will touch the next persons in another.

 

Anyway, I too don't want to start any fights here. These are just my thoughts.

 

Bottom line, I personally want my children exposed to both the Christian persective and the secular perspective on things. I want them educated and prepared for all views and things they will face in life. Sheltering them from certain things just because we don't agree with them is a dangerous thing to do in my opinion. It is my job as their mother to prepare them for the goods AND bads in life. Even it they are tough or taboo subjects. I want them prepared for things when they come across them. Not hit in the face with them like a Mack truck. Sheltering them simply is not the answer because the world sure isn't going to cater to them. The world will require them to live in it whether they agree with everything or not. It is my job to train them in the right way, the christian way, to live in this world. Simply pretending that these issues don't exist is dangerous.

 

Just my $.02

 

What a refreshing post to read.

 

I wish I was in your homeschool group. :001_smile:

[Kari C in SC]

Hm, we're Christian and although we have used some "religious" material, we also use secular. We use what fits our family and learning style. We want our children to learn to the glory of God, and that can be done with whatever you use.

 

:iagree:

 

This is my 10th year of homeschooling. I have used a wide variety of stuff. I take what I want from it and leave the rest. For example, I really like Progeny Press guides. I like them for the actual study of the book. I didn't really want them for bible study because we had something else for that. I just skipped the dig deeper questions. On the other hand, we have done Apologia Zoology this year. It has religious references all throughout and even though this is not what we use for bible study - I love that the biblical references are there. We also use MUS and Spelling power. Completely secular there. I guess for me it is a little of this and a little of that with no particular lean towards religious or secular.

[Peek a Boo]

I don't think sheltering my kids from the "bads in the world is doing them any favors. I firmly believe that my kids need to learn about and be exposed to these things. When they are grown and gone they will most definitely face them in life and I want them prepared when they do. I don't want them learning about many of these issues from others. I want them to learn about them from their father and I and they certainly won't do that by being sheltered from the real world

 

yeah, but on the flip side, for the sake of discussion, just cuz you brought it up, since i have the time.......most kids don't need to be exposed to stuff that is the equivalent of an ounce of dog crap in their brownies. no matter how good the brownies taste or how much broccoli has been pureed into them.

 

I do think there is [usually] a difference between "learning about" and "being exposed" to bad stuff.

 

"In the real world" i want my kids to learn to avoid crappy stuff. That is easily modeled at home :)

[unsinkable]

never mind

Edited April 26, 2009 by unsinkable

[asta]

(there was previous quote here about Kool-Aid)

 

I addressed this in a subsequent post.

 

I realize that people don't want to read through fourteen pages of posts, but frankly, I'm tired of being flamed (or watching other people get flamed) every time I (or someone else) post(s) something that is outside of a particular worldview.

 

From the user agreement:

Do not assume that everyone on the boards shares a particular religious conviction

These boards are inclusive. You are welcome to ask theological questions, but don't post as though everyone who frequents the boards shares your ideology. Offending posts may be deleted. Don't use inquiries as an excuse to proselytize for anything. Answer questions that are posted but don't use these questions as an excuse to springboard into criticism. For example: If someone asks, "What are your kids dressing up as for Halloween?" don't launch into an explanation of how evil Halloween is. If someone asks, "Is Halloween evil?" have a ball. (Conversely: if someone posts, "We don't do Halloween; what can we substitute?" don't take this as an opportunity to prove to them that Halloween is really just fine.)

 

And yes, I also know that it says:

Don't insist on the last word

Some disagreements will result in a draw. Be willing to let a thread end on someone ELSE'S opinion. "Last words" which have no purpose other than to assert that, after all, you're REALLY right, will be deleted.

 

and

 

Be humble

Post your opinions and your experiences, but remember that other families may have different experiences than yours and may reason their way with impeccable logic to different conclusions. Posts which "lay down the law" may be deleted.

 

Be civil

Don't attack another poster's background, religious convictions, experience, or parenting style. Above all, resist the one-liner subject-header put-down. Nasty cracks will be deleted.

 

If my original post was so heinous, and such an affront to the society of the world (as opposed to something meant as an innocent comment that is in the common vernacular), I'm relatively certain that the board moderators would have deleted it.

 

I'm also relatively certain that this will not be the "last word" on this thread by anyone, so I'm not too concerned with writing this one post.

 

 

asta

Edited April 27, 2009 by asta

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

"In the real world" i want my kids to learn to avoid crappy stuff. That is easily modeled at home :)

 

Do your kids have the freedom to decide for themselves what is crappy though?

 

Do they have the opportunity to taste the poo and decide for themselves if it is bad or watch others eat the poo and get sick from it?

 

I would much rather my child decide for herself what tastes bad than base it on what I think or do or tell her. This is the Academy of Jedi Arts, not the Clone Army. :tongue_smilie:I consider myself to be a pretty well rounded person, but not well rounded enough to model to my child all the different lifestyle choices and value systems out there that she has to choose from.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for parents finding materials for their children that enhance their lifestyle. I just don't see how declaring the public schools bad because they only teach from one viewpoint and churn out robots who can't think for themselves, then homeschooling a child and only exposing that child to one way of thinking and being makes any bit of logical sense whatsoever. But that's just me.

[Peek a Boo]

Do your kids have the freedom to decide for themselves what is crappy though?

 

Do they have the opportunity to taste the poo and decide for themselves if it is bad or watch others eat the poo and get sick from it?

 

I would much rather my child decide for herself what tastes bad than base it on what I think or do or tell her. This is the Academy of Jedi Arts, not the Clone Army. :tongue_smilie:I consider myself to be a pretty well rounded person, but not well rounded enough to model to my child all the different lifestyle choices and value systems out there that she has to choose from.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for parents finding materials for their children that enhance their lifestyle. I just don't see how declaring the public schools bad because they only teach from one viewpoint and churn out robots who can't think for themselves, then homeschooling a child and only exposing that child to one way of thinking and being makes any bit of logical sense whatsoever. But that's just me.

 

huh.

 

I would think that a great relationship w/ my dc based on trust would be plenty when we say: "dog crap is bad for you. stay away from it. that includes places/ things/ people like X, Y, Z." sounds fairly logical to me.

 

Your words seem to imply that if a child chooses to obey their parents, they are clones or robots w/ no independent thought.

 

kinda like telling my sick kiddo to wear a face mask in public if they are sick or people around them are sick. Do they have the freedom to make a stupid choice? that depends. If it means they are choosing to live w/ the pedophile next door cuz he's a sweet guy,then NO, they do not have that choice. Not taking my [and others'] word for it and making the same mistake that others have is pretty stupid. But that's just me. eta: not that i NEVER do stupid stuff ;)

 

That's not creating clones, that's building relationships of trust. I guess if my dc can't trust me then yeah, they'd have to try everything themselves. Part of education is learning from other people's mistakes: we study history so we can learn FROM it, not repeat it. we study philosophy so we can better understand why the people around us make different choices. We study human behavior so we don't HAVE to taste the poo: other people already have w/ dire consequences, and i don't need to have seen them suffer w/ my own eyes to realize that experts before me have already documented those cases very well. If your kid can only learn by making those same mistakes again, then that's your own issue. but i'd be leery about calling other people's smart, obedient kids that understand trust and parental authority clones or robots. ;)

 

On the points that I DON't know? sure-- they can go ahead and use the tools they know [that they've learned in their education] to make a decision. However, most "complicated" choices are usually based on a few basic principals.

 

i don't homeschool because of the viewpoints taught at the PS: i homeschool because of the negative socialization that is found daily AT any institutional school setting. The same negative socialization that can be found in any group, but we can minimize here at home. It can't be completely avoided, but it can be minimized quite a bit, giving them the opportunity to build strong relationships so they can recognize when those necessary qualities are lacking. Seems simple enough to me. I've been fairly impressed w/ the adult children of families who actually , oh, TAUGHT their kids how to make good choices. Saved those kids a LOT of time on the learning curve so they could move on to deeper things. or like Yoda mentions:

 

[Luke:] I can’t believe it.

[Yoda:] That is why you fail.

 

there's a lot of key ideas in Yoda's teaching of Luke, and few of them involved Yoda saying- "don't listen to me, I know very little. Figger it out yourself."

[Peek a Boo]

I would much rather my child decide for herself what tastes bad than base it on what I think or do or tell her. This is the Academy of Jedi Arts, not the Clone Army. ........ then homeschooling a child and only exposing that child to one way of thinking and being makes any bit of logical sense whatsoever. But that's just me.

 

LOL! It just hit me:

Yoda had to waste a buncha time undoing all the crap that Luke had been exposed to, kept trying to tell him what TO do, and did so w/ no other people around on a remote planet away from other influences before shipping him off to the real world. Not to mention all the intense one-view training that jedis went through about The Force :)

 

Yup. Homeschooling at it's finest. :D

[Mama Lynx]

LOL! It just hit me:

Yoda had to waste a buncha time undoing all the crap that Luke had been exposed to, kept trying to tell him what TO do, and did so w/ no other people around on a remote planet away from other influences before shipping him off to the real world. Not to mention all the intense one-view training that jedis went through about The Force :)

 

Yup. Homeschooling at it's finest. :D

 

Sure, that's why the Jedis only took kids under a certain age. They wanted 'em young, so that they could mold them from early on.

 

The problem with letting your kids decide what is crap and what is not, is that they first have to learn, or come up with, some way of telling the difference. Many things are not immediately "crap" on the surface. If I teach my kids "This is crap, but that, over there, is good, is true, is beautiful, is quality," and *why* this is so ... then they'll have some means by which to judge for themselves.

[LisaNY]

huh.

 

I would think that a great relationship w/ my dc based on trust would be plenty when we say: "dog crap is bad for you. stay away from it. that includes places/ things/ people like X, Y, Z." sounds fairly logical to me.

 

It sounds *very* logical to me.

 

 

 

 

That's not creating clones, that's building relationships of trust. I guess if my dc can't trust me then yeah, they'd have to try everything themselves. Part of education is learning from other people's mistakes: we study history so we can learn FROM it, not repeat it. we study philosophy so we can better understand why the people around us make different choices. We study human behavior so we don't HAVE to taste the poo: other people already have w/ dire consequences, and i don't need to have seen them suffer w/ my own eyes to realize that experts before me have already documented those cases very well. If your kid can only learn by making those same mistakes again, then that's your own issue. but i'd be leery about calling other people's smart, obedient kids that understand trust and parental authority clones or robots. ;)

 

Well said, Peek. I agree.

 

 

On the points that I DON't know? sure-- they can go ahead and use the tools they know [that they've learned in their education] to make a decision. However, most "complicated" choices are usually based on a few basic principals.

 

Very true.

 

 

i don't homeschool because of the viewpoints taught at the PS.

 

Oh, I definitely hs because of the viewpoints taught at the PS. My older dd went to PS in 10th gr., and she has had lots of interesting discussions w/her teachers and her classmates. Her POV is decidedly different than most of the other students. There are a few of her classmates that actually do agree w/her, though.

[LisaNY]

Sure, that's why the Jedis only took kids under a certain age. They wanted 'em young, so that they could mold them from early on.

 

The problem with letting your kids decide what is crap and what is not, is that they first have to learn, or come up with, some way of telling the difference. Many things are not immediately "crap" on the surface. If I teach my kids "This is crap, but that, over there, is good, is true, is beautiful, is quality," and *why* this is so ... then they'll have some means by which to judge for themselves.

 

Exactly!! Ideally, parents should model what is good/what is not. That is how the children learn.

[Blessedfamily]

Sure, that's why the Jedis only took kids under a certain age. They wanted 'em young, so that they could mold them from early on.

 

The problem with letting your kids decide what is crap and what is not, is that they first have to learn, or come up with, some way of telling the difference. Many things are not immediately "crap" on the surface. If I teach my kids "This is crap, but that, over there, is good, is true, is beautiful, is quality," and *why* this is so ... then they'll have some means by which to judge for themselves.

 

A very good thought. Mama Lynx, I've missed your posts. :seeya:

 

There are some very good points being made in this thread. Really.. on many sides. I'm enjoying the discussion. :001_smile:

[Kathy in MD]

:iagree: I am a Christian but I so completely agree with your comments. My husband and I have discussed this exact thing many times. We are Christian but we are firm believers that even though we may not agree with certain things we want our kids educated about them.

 

Here is one example. I have MANY homeschooling friends that don't agree with my views. Many of them flat out won't let their kids watch a PG 13 movie because of the language etc. I disagree with this. I do filter things my kids watch but I don't ban a movie just because it's PG 13. If it has cursing in it but is a great movie I let me kids watch it. I use this as a learning opportunity. We just teach them that "We don't say that." or "We don't believe that way." I don't think sheltering my kids from the "bads in the world is doing them any favors. I firmly believe that my kids need to learn about and be exposed to these things. When they are grown and gone they will most definitely face them in life and I want them prepared when they do. I don't want them learning about many of these issues from others. I want them to learn about them from their father and I and they certainly won't do that by being sheltered from the real world.

 

As far as academic. :iagree:there too. I am a Christian but I also have issues with many homeschooling mindsets that completely rule out evolution. I do believe in evolution to a certain extent. I believe as a species (or any species for that matter) that we have to evolve in order to survive. I want my kids to understand the scientific reasons why this is necessary as well as the Christian belief that God is in control of it all.

 

I also don't believe in a literal 7 days of creation. There is just too much scientic evidence to support that our earth is an old earth. Does this mean that I don't believe the Bible? Absolutely NOT! I just think that it is a very slippery slope though to pick and choose things in the Bible as being literal. The Bible also clearly states that if our left eye cause us to sin then we are to pluck it out, but how many of us are ripping our eyes out everytime we see a cute guy or gal?

 

Many Christians take 7 days of creation as literal but won't even think about plucking their eyes out. I believe that it is hypocritical to pick and choose the parts of the Bible that we want to believe as literal. If these young earth believers choose to take this part of the Bible as literal then they better start plucking their eyes out because the Bible says that too.

 

I believe that God provided us with the Bible as a guideline, not an absolute. After all, our relationships with God are personal and the good book is his way of communicating with us. One passage may touch one persons heart in one way and it will touch the next persons in another.

 

Anyway, I too don't want to start any fights here. These are just my thoughts.

 

Bottom line, I personally want my children exposed to both the Christian persective and the secular perspective on things. I want them educated and prepared for all views and things they will face in life. Sheltering them from certain things just because we don't agree with them is a dangerous thing to do in my opinion. It is my job as their mother to prepare them for the goods AND bads in life. Even it they are tough or taboo subjects. I want them prepared for things when they come across them. Not hit in the face with them like a Mack truck. Sheltering them simply is not the answer because the world sure isn't going to cater to them. The world will require them to live in it whether they agree with everything or not. It is my job to train them in the right way, the christian way, to live in this world. Simply pretending that these issues don't exist is dangerous.

 

Just my $.02

 

:iagree:

 

My ds's Bible study group actually spends a lot of time studying movies -- some "good", some not good. The point is to teach the kids to evaluate the culture around them and see the effect of the various pieces. The leaders want the kids to see how things are set up to suck them in to bad things, see how the glamorous can have a dirty underside and to recognize and celebrate the good and enjoyable, even if it doesn't come straight out of the Bible. They also are working on teaching them to recognize that most things are a mixture of good and bad -- and to think for themselves!

 

Another thing that amazes me is how many don't want honestly discuss, vs condemn, evolution in the church. As far as I'm concerned, if you want creation taught in the schools as a science, the churches need to honestly, with an open mind, discuss evolution in church. Some of the best evolution/creation discussions I've heard were in my old Sunday school class where commited Christians were debating the pro's and con's.

[unsinkable]

I addressed this in a subsequent post.

 

I realize that people don't want to read through fourteen pages of posts, but frankly, I'm tired of being flamed (or watching other people get flamed) every time I (or someone else) post(s) something that is outside of a particular worldview.

 

From the user agreement:

 

 

And yes, I also know that it says:

 

 

If my original post was so heinous, and such an affront to the society of the world (as opposed to something meant as an innocent comment that is in the common vernacular), I'm relatively certain that the board moderators would have deleted it.

 

I'm also relatively certain that this will not be the "last word" on this thread by anyone, so I'm not too concerned with writing this one post.

 

 

asta

 

I don't know if you noticed that I deleted what I wrote at 2:48 pm after I started to read through the thread. You posted at 2:49 pm so I am assuming that you quoted me and then it took you a few minutes to write the rest of your post.

 

The reason I deleted my post was b/c I did not want to keep bringing it up after I saw so many others did.

 

And I wrote about hating the phrase, not hating you b/c you wrote it so in my mind, I don't consider it flaming you.