Struggling to find our place in hs curriculum; MFW, Ominbus, LCC, ???

[Christy B]

I am really struggling to find direction for high school. I have always enjoyed piecing together my "top picks" for various subjects. There are several high school level components that really appeal to me: LLfLOTR, Notgrass History, Starting Points, etc. I was set to use those and/or very traditional high school texts. Then I started rethinking Latin, and wanting a deep as opposed to broad course of study, so I'm also reading The Latin Centered Curriculum (both editions, at the same time, which is crazy-making but there you go!)

 

I had been anticipating an almost "trade-school" approach to high school; dd wants to go into nursing, she's a very computer and tech-oriented kid. I'm rethinking that approach. *Especially* if she goes on to major in nursing or computers or something tech-y in college -- high school will be her best and possibly only time to focus on great literature and great thinking. Surely a Latin and literature rich education will better prepare her to LEARN and to COMMUNICATE, regardless of what field she pursues, right? (No, really, is that right? Am I making sense?)

 

I've also been looking at Omnibus, Sonlight, and then this weekend I got a flyer from MFW -- I had no idea they had a new high school program (it probably came out while my dd was in school, so I wasn't paying attention). I must say it really, really appeals to me. They use the Notgrass History as a spine (I was planning on using that anyway). I love the scheduled Bible readings. I love the SCHEDULE, and the fact that it is written to the student. If I understand correctly, it includes WRITING INSTRUCTION, which right there might be the deciding factor. I LOVE choosing and planning materials, but then again, it might be neat to NOT have to do that. Imagine what my summer could be like! And then there's the appeal of being able to start my 5th grader in the MFW rotation, and their topics would be similar.

 

The sample chapter of Omnibus has an awesome discussion of theology and religion and why we believe what we believe (some of the very things I've been struggling with lately were addressed convincingly and graciously). The artwork is absolutely stunning. And again, the 5th grader could use the history and Bible cards so there would be some continuity (I'm OCD enough that it matters to me, a lot, that things "match up".)

 

I hesitate to go with an "all-in-one" package because I am reluctant to let go of using something like LLfLOTR. On the other hand, we could get six weeks in to LLfLOTR and hate it -- and then I would really kick myself for letting that be the deciding factor. Or we could miss out on what promises to be the highlight of our high school studies. You see my dilemma.

 

I love the idea of a more LCC approach, but I haven't yet decided if we'll pursue Latin. And, given that we haven't been classical homeschoolers, I'm not sure we could manage the scope and sequence of LCC (if I thought of the upper grammar as high school and the rhetoric as college, we might be fine! but there is no WAY dd could manage the selections for high school). The thing that resonates with me in re: to LCC is the idea to COMBINE and INTEGRATE as many separate subjects as possible into a more cohesive study. (In fact, I have posts from way back in 2004, asking "what programs cover the maximum number of subjects and information between two covers"; I think I've always instinctively known that the fewer separate subjects we had to wrestle with, the better.)

 

I am torn between wanting to design a very straightforward high school program (a just the facts, ma'am), for example, using Notgrass AS IS; and wanting the richness and depth of a program like Ominbus. What amazes and confuses me is that Notgrass, Omnibus, and MFW all suggest awarding three full credits: one each in History, Literature, and Bible. However, the content and amount of work seem to vary pretty dramatically, with Notgrass seeming lighter, MFW moderate, and Omnibus right down intimidating.

 

It's hard to justify springing for the MFW package at $425, when Notgrass all by its lonesome at ~$100 would give me the exact same number of credits on the transcript, and in ONE BOOK as opposed to keeping up with so many different resources. :confused: How do you decide how much investment of time and resources is wise? Is it taking the easy way out to choose something like Notgrass over something like MFW? And why am I so drawn to Omnibus despite the fact that it scares the living daylights out of me?

 

How do you go about settling on a direction and approach for high school, when there are so many options available? Four years suddenly seems like way too short of a time to study everything that we should study. What are some of the factors to consider in choosing? Dd is at this point pretty willing to go either way; she is on board with Latin (especially if it eliminates the need for a separate grammar and vocab program). She has two friends who are classically homeschooled (one in Classical Conversations, the other I believe started Omnibus in 7th) so I think she would really appreciate being able to converse with them on a more intelligent level. On the other hand, I want her to be her own, geeky, unconventional self.

 

Anyone want to give me some thoughts to ponder? :bigear:

[Kelly on the prairie]

:bigear:I'm not sure what the answers are, but I just came to the board to search for anything that is being written about the MFW high school curriculum. I, too, received the flyer and am wondering about it. I hope you hear some good answers!

[Di3kids]

I'm in the same boat as you are and have been CRAZY trying to figure it all out as we also have our first child in high school in the fall. Here's what I've discovered:

 

Notgrass awards 1 credit each for Bible, History, and English but this is when using the curriculum for one year. MFW uses the Notgrass curriculum over a two year period but also awards 1 credit for each subject for each year because it adds in more for each subject area.

 

MFW is what we are ordering for our 9th grader. We were all set to order Creation to the Greeks for our 4th and 7th graders so we could study altogether (or so I thought). The MFW curriculum for high school is designed to be used rather independently. I had a long conversation with Scott at MFW - he was very helpful! Anyhow, I was about to order CtG but then I looked ahead to the next few years in the rotation. I had already used SOTW with my children when they were younger., and I believe they are designed for the younger set. MFW has books 2-4 in the series scheduled, and my children would be older by the time we used them again. So, I'm planning on using Winter Promise Quest for the Ancient World with my two youngers. It uses MOH as its spine, and I'm pretty excited about it.

 

I also have thought about Notgrass on its own, or even MOH for youngers alone. BTW, I agree about Omnibus seeming intimidating. I have a friend whose son scored very high on ACT and is quite an avid reader. He used Omnibus one year and did not rave about it. On the other hand, I have another friend whose two daughters are using it and really loving it.

 

Anyhow, HTH.

[profmom]

:lurk5:

 

I'm sorting through similar issues and am interested in your replies. I seem to choose the most time-consuming aspects of each approach to incorporate (current CW, TOG, Latin & Greek, for example)! Each approach seems to be lighter in some areas to accomodate a focus on others.

 

I really like TOG, but I sometimes wonder if MFW high school would be fine as we focus on other areas in the upper grades. The philosophy behind the scheduling is completely different with these two curricula! MFW is done mostly independently, but this is because the student is given a schedule and told exactly what to do each day. TOG's philosophy is for the student to plan their own days as practice for skillfully managing their lives through college and adult years. On a CD, Marcia Somerville specifically talks about this as a priority because of what she's seen of homeschoolers who grew up being told what to all day. (I like the reasoning behind TOG's approach, but I also see that responsibility could be taught in other areas.)

 

Also, TOG's authors strongly believe that older students need Socratic discussions with parents/teachers to help them make connections, understand cause and effect, etc., etc. So, they include lots of teacher notes and believe the benefits to the student are worth parents' investment of time to study to prepare for these discussions.

 

MFW wants students to cover the material, but they are practical about the amount of time that moms have to invest. So, the program is more independent with a weekly discussion time that I'm guessing is quite a bit lighter and requires a lot less teacher prep than TOG's recommended discussion. (Can anyone compare?)

 

I hope I haven't offended any TOG or MFW users in my thoughts above. (I could be wrong -- feel free to clarify.) My impression is that TOG is deeper than MFW and, as a result, requires more work for parents and students. I would prefer TOG, but I do have times of wondering if MFW would be enough with our other studies and music activities.

 

Each approach has to have lighter areas to allow for the extra time for what it deems more important. Wouldn't it be great to find the program with our exact priorities for emphasis and the same feelings about low-priority subjects?

 

Ok...back to :lurk5: and hoping you get some responses from others! (I'm in the same boat you are, and probably mostly just stated the obvious.)

Edited April 6, 2009 by profmom

[momof2boys]

I have used MFW with my boys in the past and also TOG with them. While they each have their own approach to teaching ,I personally do not think that TOG is more in depth than MFW. They just go about teaching the material differently. but they are both very comprehensive imo. I have also been looking at Winters Promise for highschool and it looks good too. I was going to use MFW Ancient history this year with my soon to be 10th grader, however, he told me this weekend that he does not want to do ancients next year. He wants to do a study starting with the civil war and progressing forward from there. As MFW does not have the high school american history completed yet I am going to have to look elsewhere. But for me if I were going to use either of the three of these curriculums I would use MFW.Just my opinion.

gloria:001_smile:

P.S. While I have looked at Omnibus in the past, I decided that it jsut wasn't for us for too many reasons to list here.

[profmom]

I have used MFW with my boys in the past and also TOG with them. While they each have their own approach to teaching ,I personally do not think that TOG is more in depth than MFW. They just go about teaching the material differently. but they are both very comprehensive imo.

 

Interesting...thanks! Could you share a comparison of MFW's high school & TOG? What is it that tips the scale to MFW for you? I think the OP would be interested too since she'd learn more about MFW.

[momof2boys]

Well, like I said they are both very indepth and good curriculum. The reason we would use MFW is well quaite frankly because my boys just like the flow of it better for lack of a better way to describe it. They also like the writing assignments better in MFW. I like them both the same. I just think you have to look at your child(ren) and how each teaches the content and go from there. At the high school level I let my boys have a great deal of input in what they will use.

Gloria

[Nan in Mass]

Have you thought about TWEM? You said you wanted your daughter to stay her own geeky self. That means she will need time to do that, more time than doing something like TOG might allow her. And you said that she couldn't read some of the rhetoric-level books required by some of programs but you want her to read some classics in depth because her college education will have a different focus (in which I entirely agree with you). How about a program where you get to pick the books, so you can pick ones of interest to her and at her level? A program that would also teach her to how to continue her own education throughout the rest of her adult life so you don't need to panic about her not reading some of the more difficult greats now? A program that doesn't specify how many books she has to do each year, so that you don't have to guess how long things will take her beforehand, and so that if she is enjoying something she can linger or hating something she can give up and try one of the many, many other greats? I am in the same boat, with children whose college years will (probably) be devoted to career training and who have other interests that will take precidence during their high school years. I have done TWEM with my two, dragging the younger one along for the ride during his logic stage, and I am amazed at how much we have all learned. I had barely studied any literature at all previously (although I love to read). I do almost no prep work. And it still has worked out beautifully. We have read some great books! We have had some great discussions! And I see my children applying that sort of thinking to everything in their lives.

 

Just to make things more complicated for you GRIN...

Good luck! Deciding how to do high school for each child is difficult. I had to decide for the oldest one (who goes to college next year) and now I am having to decide all over again for the youngest. The great books decision is easy for the youngest, though, because we will just continue to do TWEM. (I also am just doing Latin instead of vocab and grammar. That seems to have worked fine for the older one, also.)

 

-Nan

[Rhondabee]

Nan,

 

I have read about your WEM study, and that is what I am planning for literature. But, I am stymied about history. Maybe I was just paying attention to the lit part of your posts, but I'm curious what you use, and how you plan, for history....

 

I'm reading SWB's Ancient History book right now, and it seems to have *so much* more information than Western Civ, and it has her great sense of humor and engaging narrative. Part of me argues that it would be so much easier to use, and have so much more information than studying history via the context study recommended in WTM.

 

But OTOH, I feel like that part of the learning is supposed to be gathering from many sources, and not having it all handed to you on a silver platter, so to speak. And, I know that while we might be able to use the Middle Ages book next year, the Late Ren/Early Modern book won't be ready in time, so we will have to find something else *anyway*.

 

Any great words of wisdom?

 

Thanks for all your help!

[Christy B]

I've already ruled out TOG because I just don't see any spines that appeal to me. It's a little "too much" of everything; in fact, MFW is pushing the envelope for my textbook loving daughter, but the very detailed schedule does appeal to her.

 

Nan, I do love the idea of using TWEM for literature discussion; dd hates to write but she LOVES to sit down and talk about what she is reading. If we end up going with Notgrass textbooks for history, I could easily see using TWEM for discussion of the suggested reading. That would eliminate the need for a literature "program" while making sure we do some literary analysis.

 

Thanks for the suggestions so far, I look forward to more!

 

I really see the value in a curriculum that focuses on Latin and classic studies; I also want to make sure we ENJOY these years and don't get so caught up in the academics that we lose our time for music, volunteer work, crafts, etc.

[MommyThrice]

I also want to make sure we ENJOY these years and don't get so caught up in the academics that we lose our time for music, volunteer work, crafts, etc.

 

That is EXACTLY what I've been dwelling on for the past several weeks! I, too, am completely rethinking our entire high school plan. I'm so tired of pushing, pushing and still never getting where I want to be. We are very involved in speech & debate and have a family band, and there is just never enough time. Four years is short. We have chosen to homeschool in order to build our family first, education is second. But, as a perfectionist, I don't want my child to get a second-class education.

 

I have started exploring other curriculum (TOG, Sonlight) and discovered how light the reading is. I have been planning along the lines of WVWW, Omnibus, and GreatBooks.com so I planned to cover lots of classics - we're going through Starting Points this year. I keep coming back to a few basic facts (1) I want him to read the classics (2) I don't want a text to tell him what to think (3) I need a text to help me teach. I know I should read everything he reads, but I know I won't have the time and I'm not confindent in my analysis.

 

Right now I'm leaning towards continuing to choose my own books. I've been making a list this week. I plan to use Omnibus and the GreatBooks.com guides to help me with my discussions. I will not cover nearly as much as Omnibus does, but I want to go deep. I also want to cover much more modern history, British literature, politics, and current events than Omnibus.

 

"Leave time to enjoy your children" - I keep reminding myself!

[Kathie in VA]

Hmm, there are a lot of us on this boat! (or is it a cruise?)

I too keep re-evaluating what I want to do. At this point I'm making a spreadsheet to help keep track of all the info. I have columns for hrs/day, days/wk, credits(hist, lit, bible), whether it's secular or christian, how many yrs to complete a cycle (ex Omni-3, WTM-4, Notgrass-1), pros, cons, approach (classical lit, literature, text), etc.

 

I'll have my two youngest (K & 4th) in Classical Conversations - Foundations. They will be doing Cycle 1 next year (which is basically 1st half of world history) so I'd like to keep my 8th and 9th graders on the same time period. I also really don't want a program that includes a lot of writing since we will be continuing with Classical Writing. In fact I'd like to have my kids do the optional reading that goes with the Diogenes level also... so I wonder if I will need to balance this lit req with the lit requirements of the history-Great Books studies.

 

I like the idea of remembering what my kids want/need in addition to what I'd like them to do. My oldest wants to be a doctor so she will really need to pick up her abilities in math and science. She is also enjoys Greek mythology and thinks the Romans were just copycats! My next dc has interests all over the place. He 'gets' math really well (just don't look at grades, kwim?) so he might want to be an engineer like his dad. He also loves history and anything to do with military strategies.

 

Omnibus would keep all the kids about on the same timeline for history. However Omni seems to just require more time than I really want to require of my kids (~15hrs/wk). So maybe we'll just do some of it?? Omni also doesn't include 'How to Read a Book' or 'WEM' which I'd like to do {although I think they do in the later levels of Omni}

 

The WTM methods sound good also and they require less time (~10hrs/wk). However it will require more prep time for me this summer... and due to all the unexpected interruptions this year (funerals always get in the way of life) we will be schooling into the summer... I'm just not sure how far.

 

Notgrass is only a year of world history but if I only did half and added some video courses from The Teaching Company's The Great Courses, then we could do world history in 2 years. This would leave 2 years for more focused courses like Government, Economics/Finance, etc. This is temping too but I'd have to realize that we just wouldn't have time for lots of the Great Books. I'd consider MFW but I don't want the writing prgm mixed in.

 

ug. the boat is rocking again! Is someone dancing on board?? :001_huh:

[Debbie in IL]

Me, too, Kelly and Christy! I'm sitting down to read this thread - looking forward to the wisdom here, as always.

[Nan in Mass]

History is humungous. The depth and the breadth... And I know hardly any of it. It has been fun exploring here and there as an adult, though. I seem to have survived just fine without knowing that much of it, unlike geography, which I had to teach myself the minute I got out of school in order to understand anything at all. When I say "hardly any of it", I mean compared to other people here. I do know a bit. Unlike that geography. Mostly, though, I know how to go look for anything I need, and I know I need to go look. Which sounds silly, but that is how I manage. So, since the subject is so very large, and I've managed ok only knowing bits of it, I am resigned to not covering all of it in depth during high school. I guess you could say that I gave up before I even began LOL. I'm not saying that my children haven't had any history. They have. They know much more than I. My older one has walked over Hadrian's Wall, seen the difference in the graffiti between Northern and southern Ireland, has been taken to a police station because he was in the company of Native Americans, has been to the Cesar Chavez center (mispelled that I'm sure, and I don't know its proper name), has seen mountains with their tops removed from mining, and has heard survivors of the bomb in Hiroshima speak. Those are just an example. The reason you haven't heard me talk about history very much is that I'm not doing much of the history teaching. Other people are. He read SOTW, part of the grammar stage history list, Kingfisher (outlining lots of it), and almost all the logic stage history list. For high school, because he's living a great deal of his history, we've taken it easy. He is about 50 pages short of having read all of Western Civ. He has written a few papers. He has read Zinn's US history book, The Idiot's Guide, Penny Candy and several other Uncle Eric books, all the Cartoon History books several times, and some odd things like Getting a Grip, Hope's Edge, and Post American World. Over the years, he has consumed lots of history. (Because there wasn't a lot of output, I gave him 1 credit of Western History, 1 credit of US History, and 1 credit of US Government and Economics.) And that is just the beginning. When you read great books, you are reading history. Great books IS history. For great books, he's read things like The Declaration of Independence, Civil Disobedience, several of Plutarch's Lives, and other things that are overtly history, and things like Canterbury Tales and parts of The Mabinogeon (again, probably mangled the spelling, sigh) and Huck Finn which give a picture of the times, even if they aren't considered histories. He didn't do this as separate classes. I only separated them out into credits/courses afterwards. At the time, it looked like great books every day, yeah many pages of Western Civ each week, whatever summer or weekend reading I thought was appropriate at the time, and some background reading to try to help him integrate what he learned peacewalking with the rest of his education. I planned out the reading 3 or 6 months at a time, would finish only a portion of it, and reassess when the next season was approaching. My son reads incredibly slowly and was gone for chunks of every year, but he still managed to cover all that (some of it during 5th - 8th grade, of course). And even though we didn't do a history curriculum, he still knows lots of it. Some of it he can discuss with passion. History is one of those things where you have to make lots of choices. Even if you decide to do AP history, you still can't cover everything in both breadth and depth, and some things, as Eliana pointed out, get skipped or told only from one point of view.

And that probably isn't very helpful LOL. All I can do is keep assuring you that a little great books goes a long way, even if done incompletely, and the idea is to teach your children how to think and how to find things out for themselves so they will continue to educate themselves the rest of their life.

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

You might want to read the transcript thread on the college board, also.

[Nan in Mass]

And there was also a thread recently (I started it, sounding like you guys even though I'm doing it for the second time) talking about approaches to doing high school.b

[JennW in SoCal]

Christy (and everyone else who is thinking through the same issues)

 

Have you re-read your copy of WTM? Specifically the Rhetoric section on Great Books? I did just that in the last month and felt so reassured that I could do high school without any prepackaged programs. It is the part of the WTM I connected with the most when I first read it years ago, because it made so much sense to me to pick a Great Book, read the historical context, then read the work and discuss and analyze it. It isn't difficult to do any of those steps, and there are simple writing assignments that automatically are part of it -- writing a page about the historical context, keeping a journal while reading, writing an essay based on one of the questions from the WEM. So much of it can also be done orally.

 

It teaches the kind of independent study and research skills that will serve your students in college, I think more so than simply following any of those programs like Omnibus, no matter how excellent they are.

 

I'm drawing my reading lists from other programs and from the WTM and winnowing them down to the titles I think make most sense for my teen, and that I want to read myself! I also strongly believe that I'm developing a lifelong love of learning in my kids, that they will have the tools and the thirst for knowledge that will keep them reading, studying and learning for the rest of their lives. It helps to keep that in mind so I don't feel the pressure of getting to simply everything.

 

You'll be surprised at what your high school student gets involved in over the next 4 years -- it could be that some project starts to take bigger and bigger chunks of time. The best part of designing your own great books study is that you can easily tailor it to fit your unique situation. As Nan said, a little bit of Great Books still goes a long way.

 

Hope that helps though I probably muddled things up even more for you!

[Rhondabee]

Nan,

 

That is amazing! Even though I know I can't provide what you've described, I *can* follow my own "unconventional" plan. It is so helpful to hear how other people work it all out in real life, especially when they're not following a set path, but really trying to find their own.

 

Thank you for sharing! You have given me some much needed confidence.

[Rhondabee]

Thanks, Jen! I am definitely printing this thread and putting it in my planner for days when I need a pick-me-up!

[MommyThrice]

SoCal. That explains alot about your point-of-view. I think I just need a sunny beach vacation! :auto:

Of course, I'll take my WTM with me to re-read, like you've suggested.

[Nan in Mass]

I love hearing, too. People here have done historical renacting, costume design, archaelogical digs, geneology, volunteered at museums, and probably lots of other things that I'm forgetting.

[jibaker103]

I was stuck in the what curriculum should I buy syndrome just up until a couple of days ago!! I was so worried about making sure my son got what he needed for "school" that I wasn't listening to his needs. He kept saying that he wanted to make learning fun and why do we need to open a textbook!!! He kept telling me over and over how he loves to read and just wants to discuss important and interesting topics with me!

 

Well once I sat down for some deep thought and released my fear I realized there was nothing wrong with his suggestions, especially since it has been reinforced in TWTM and a lot of you wonderful board members.

 

So late last night I ordered 3 spines to preview (Western Civilization, Streams of civilization, and The Human Odyssey), printed out great book lists from Ambleside, TWTM, Omnibus, and History Odyssey, and made a temporary plan for this week until everything comes together.

 

When my son got up this morning and I made the announcement of what would take place from now on the biggest smile I've seen quite awhile graced his handsome 13 year old face. As we progressed throughout the day he was a different child...happy, eager, and excited about learning!!! I am so excited about our journey together and really getting to know my son again since bringing him home from 7th grade public school in January!!!!

 

Jennifer

Mother to Noah Age 13

[Nan in Mass]

That is great! When my older one got close to high school, I announced that things had to be different now. He asked me why we couldn't just keep doing things the way we had been. I, too, really thought about it and realized that he was right. I am SO grateful I listened to him. PHew! Have fun!

[Christy B]

I will go search for your other thread, Nan, and I so appreciate everyone's thoughts. At the very least I'm comforted to know that I am not the only person who is struggling to define what, exactly, high school is going to look like!

 

I really like the idea that a little bit of Great Books is better than none. Frankly, I had planned NONE. It's good to know that even if we can only manage a smidge, it's worthwhile to try.

 

I honestly don't want history to be the center of my curriculum. It was largely the center for middle school. I think I'm ready for the focus to be literature -- which, as Nan pointed out, can include a great deal of history.

 

And, unlike many of you, I have a child who requests and prefers textbooks. So, while *my* idea of an ideal curriculum would look very much like what is outlined in TWTM -- that is going to frustrate my daughter and take a lot of the joy out of her day. So I have to keep that in mind as I plan -- sometimes good enough is almost perfect; while almost perfect could be one step away from disaster.

 

Thanks, really and truly.

[Nan in Mass]

I know. You need to get close to the straw that breaks the camel's back, but not get there. It is a fine balance. It would be easy if it were all one way or all the other, but it isn't. We picked textbooks for things we weren't interested in and wanted to be efficient about. My two biggest pieces of advice about picking great books are: There are lots of great books and you can't cover them all so you might as well pick the ones that your child will appreciate now. And there are a lot of resources to go along with those great books, some of which are bound to show up happily when the time comes, so don't worry too much about picking the perfect material to go along with each book or try to do all of the extras that are out there. Often, the introduction in the book itself contains nice material. If you spend too much time doing the extras, you might not have time for the book. The books are great because they speak for themselves quite well. You can turn great books into something more textbook like by making out a list of things to do for a book, including writing out the questions to be answered (just copying them out of TWEM). That makes a nice routine.

Have fun!

-Nan