Miss Marple Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I'm so excited to finally get around to Astronomy. It is something that I know NOTHING about. But my oldest at home will be a junior next year and has already had Conceptual Physics, Biology (BJU), and Chemistry (Singapore) and he needs another science before tackling trig based Physics in his senior year. So I opted for Astronomy. I have some other astronomy resources (Understanding Astronomy - college level text, I believe) and some other books. And we have the advantage of living in the country where the night skies are gorgeous, filled with stars. The Signs and Seasons curriculum offers a workbook with assignments as well as tests. He states that this is for establishing high school credit. But I thought I read on these boards a while back that S&S was probably not a high school level program...So, if it isn't a complete high school level program, what could I do to bump it up to one? Or, do you think it is a complete high school program (hopefully this is the *right* answer so I don't have to do anything else :D)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Wisc Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I'm so excited to finally get around to Astronomy. It is something that I know NOTHING about. But my oldest at home will be a junior next year and has already had Conceptual Physics, Biology (BJU), and Chemistry (Singapore) and he needs another science before tackling trig based Physics in his senior year. So I opted for Astronomy. I have some other astronomy resources (Understanding Astronomy - college level text, I believe) and some other books. And we have the advantage of living in the country where the night skies are gorgeous, filled with stars. The Signs and Seasons curriculum offers a workbook with assignments as well as tests. He states that this is for establishing high school credit. But I thought I read on these boards a while back that S&S was probably not a high school level program...So, if it isn't a complete high school level program, what could I do to bump it up to one? Or, do you think it is a complete high school program (hopefully this is the *right* answer so I don't have to do anything else :D)? S&S was written to be a high school course. If you do the book with the labs, I don't know why you would not call it a high school credit. I've never done it with a high school student, so I do not know how many hours it would take to finish the class, but I think you could put many, many hours into outside studying in addition the the text and tests. If you were to compare a math based physics class to conceptual physics, you might have the comparison of S&S and other astronomy books--S&S is based upon observation--those things that one can learn without the telescope and the math. That is why it is called Classical Astronomy. Those who love astronomy might want to move into the math based astronomy class, but this is really the place a person should start in studying this subject, imo. I believe Jay Ryan is in the process of writing another book...is it a sequel? Hm. Yes, I think it will go deeper into these concepts. My mind doesn't think too well at 4:30 in the morning (I am having a reaction to meds I took last night and the itchy rash all over my body will not let me sleep. Ugh.) If you add some of your college text to this, you might get a little of both math-based and "conceptual" if that is what you want. I would not have any problems giving a full credit for this class if you take the time to do the workbook. I suppose it is like everything here on these boards--many of us want to push our dc into as difficult a program as the child can do. If that is your goal, then this book would not be considered one of those difficult programs. If you want something that is more comparable to a college class, then you would want to add some chapters from your Introductory Astronomy text. If I were to do a class like this, I'd try to get my child out to an astronomy star party or club. I think taking the time to see the rings of Saturn (right now we are looking at the rings edge-on and they look more like a line than the normal photos of Saturn), the storms of Jupiter and her moons, the color of Mars, Venus in her phases (goes through the same stages as the moon). I'd want to have them see a nebula and a galaxy, a double star, and open and globular star clusters. I might even try to get them to a Messier Marathon--either with a pair of binoculars at home or joining a club who is doing it. I don't know this website, but he seems to have some nice info on Charles Messier and the marathon. http://www.richardbell.net/marathon.html If you decide to try the marathon, this is the material I use. It is WONDERFUL! http://www.davidpaulgreen.com/tumol.html This is my review of Signs and Seasons. http://shadesofwhite.typepad.com/shades_of_white/2009/01/jay-ryans-signs-and-seasons-understanding-the-elements-of-classical-astronomy.html This is the Classical Astronomy website: http://www.classicalastronomy.com/ This is Jay's email loop on astronomy which you can sign up for: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ClassicalAstronomy/ I love astronomy :D HTH, Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I know nothing of Signs and Seasons, but my "when in doubt" philosophy includes throwing in some lectures from The Teaching Company. Neil deGrasse Tyson's series, "My Favorite Universe", is currently on sale. While I have not listened to this particular course, I can say that Tyson is wonderful! He is a cosmologist so the material will be quite different than observational astronomy. Could it round out the course nicely? Jane (who thinks she should jump on the Astronomy bandwagon for her own self education) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Wisc Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I know nothing of Signs and Seasons, but my "when in doubt" philosophy includes throwing in some lectures from The Teaching Company. Neil deGrasse Tyson's series, "My Favorite Universe", is currently on sale. While I have not listened to this particular course, I can say that Tyson is wonderful! He is a cosmologist so the material will be quite different than observational astronomy. Could it round out the course nicely? Jane (who thinks she should jump on the Astronomy bandwagon for her own self education) Nice idea! We've been watching the Fillipenko DVDs at our Astronomy club. Very good, too. But they are not on sale right now--might be before next fall. http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/CourseDescLong2.aspx?cid=1810 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoriM Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I've been thinking about self-educating astronomy as my next field of science study. :) DH has always been fascinated with astronomy (he's a UFO buff! LOL), so we may choose to do that together and invest in good optics. We bought and used one of TTC programs on Astronomy with our second dd, but I was still working in my toxic job :) and didn't get involved as I should. You have motivated me to make it my summer study! I wonder what kinds of middle school science fair project examples I can work up from an astronomy research project? Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veronica in VA Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 (edited) some of those teaching company dvd's look great. You could also add in something like Dana Sobel's Galieo's Daughter, or The Planets. Also, out here we have astromony nights where people set up their telescopes and invite the public to look through them and ask questions. If your child is interested building your own telescope that would be fascinating. There's also Math and the Cosmos: http://www.wildridge.com/mc_overview.html I have never used it, but it always sounds fascinating to me. I love books, etc that weave in a lot of different subjects like mythology, math, and astronomy. Just the links on that sight for the program are things like NASA, Bulfinch's mythology, etc. Veronica Edited April 1, 2009 by Veronica in VA spelling & forgot something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 Great! I feel much better now. Jean, your comparison of Conceptual Physics with math based physics was perfect. And actually that's just what I'm looking for - a conceptual type of astronomy program. Honestly having my son do this course is rather selfish of me because *I* really want to learn astronomy. Like I said earlier, our night sky out here is gorgeous. I often take the dog outside around 2:00 a.m. and it's never a chore because I so enjoy just looking at the sky at that time. I feel competent with physics, chemistry, and biology, but astronomy...it's that magical science that seems so inaccessible but oh, so fascinating. While we live in a small town, we are 30 minutes from a large metro area which probably has some clubs and telescopes. I'm hoping to get some of my ds's friends involved, too. Thanks all for the links and tips! I'm really excited to begin this. *Does anyone remember back in the really old days of TWTM when some gentleman offered to do an astronomy course online with younger kids? I think my oldest was in 5th or 6th grade at the time. We all had a lot of fun with it. Who was that man??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 Oh, wow! That's cheap! I just ordered it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayfromcleveland Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Hi Cynthia, I happened to be surfing through WTM and saw this thread. I'm assuming that was your order yesterday, which will be shipped today. Not sure who said that S&S was not a high school level course. The information in the course is uncommon today, though it was common down through history. I'm trying to "repair the ruins" with S&S and would consider it highly unlikely that a younger elementary student would be able to tackle the subject matter. Besides, there is plenty of measurement to be done in the field activities, and my 15yo son has complained that he thought it was too much work. Great! I feel much better now. Jean, your comparison of Conceptual Physics with math based physics was perfect. And actually that's just what I'm looking for - a conceptual type of astronomy program. Honestly having my son do this course is rather selfish of me because *I* really want to learn astronomy. Like I said earlier, our night sky out here is gorgeous. I often take the dog outside around 2:00 a.m. and it's never a chore because I so enjoy just looking at the sky at that time. I feel competent with physics, chemistry, and biology, but astronomy...it's that magical science that seems so inaccessible but oh, so fascinating. I hope you'll be pleased! S&S was written especially for people like you, adults want to understand what's going on in the sky above. I originally intended S&S as a popular book for casual adult readers. Couldnt get it published after 10 years of banging on publisher's doors and many people persuaded me to self-publish as a homeschool curriculum. But I still hope the parents would learn also, and have heard from many who have. As far as supplementing, the plan is to record 120 hours for a Carnegie unit, which can include reading the curriculum, recording observations, and other extracurriculars, such as visiting a planetarium or astronomy club. One thing -- Jean might disagree, but I always discourage people from running out and buying a telescope. Scopes are expensive and not useful unless you know your way around the constellations and can find celestial objects. Too many people run out and buy a scope without learning the sky, and then can only find the Moon. Also, I'm personally not very interested in galaxies and nebulae, which appear as little semi-visible fuzzy patches, rather than Hubble photos. Most people (like me) are underwhelmed at the sight. So visit your astronomy club, learn the sky and learn about scopes, and decide if you care enough to invest in a scope. Also, feel free to drop me a line anytime, I'm always happy to help curriculum customers and anyone with an astronomy question. God bless, jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Wisc Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Hi Cynthia, I happened to be surfing through WTM and saw this thread. I'm assuming that was your order yesterday, which will be shipped today. Not sure who said that S&S was not a high school level course. The information in the course is uncommon today, though it was common down through history. I'm trying to "repair the ruins" with S&S and would consider it highly unlikely that a younger elementary student would be able to tackle the subject matter. Besides, there is plenty of measurement to be done in the field activities, and my 15yo son has complained that he thought it was too much work. I hope you'll be pleased! S&S was written especially for people like you, adults want to understand what's going on in the sky above. I originally intended S&S as a popular book for casual adult readers. Couldnt get it published after 10 years of banging on publisher's doors and many people persuaded me to self-publish as a homeschool curriculum. But I still hope the parents would learn also, and have heard from many who have. As far as supplementing, the plan is to record 120 hours for a Carnegie unit, which can include reading the curriculum, recording observations, and other extracurriculars, such as visiting a planetarium or astronomy club. One thing -- Jean might disagree, but I always discourage people from running out and buying a telescope. Scopes are expensive and not useful unless you know your way around the constellations and can find celestial objects. Too many people run out and buy a scope without learning the sky, and then can only find the Moon. Also, I'm personally not very interested in galaxies and nebulae, which appear as little semi-visible fuzzy patches, rather than Hubble photos. Most people (like me) are underwhelmed at the sight. So visit your astronomy club, learn the sky and learn about scopes, and decide if you care enough to invest in a scope. Also, feel free to drop me a line anytime, I'm always happy to help curriculum customers and anyone with an astronomy question. God bless, jay I was hoping you would drop by, Jay. :001_smile: Nope. I don't disagree about buying a telescope. I tell folks to learn the constellations and and the basics of the night sky 1st. Then if they want to see deeper into the night sky, they should do some binocular astronomy (I like my copy of Binocular Highlights). If they are still interested, that is the time to consider a telescope--but the best thing to do then is to go and visit folks who have one and actually use a few of them 'hands-on' to see what they think fits their needs best. Star parties and astronomy clubs are good for this. As far as galaxies and nebula--my kids have seen them and they have seen enough of them :D. I don't have a big enough scope to spend hours and hours out there looking at them--the 10"+ scopes are better for that than my little 5" Maksutov Cassegrain. But I do think that anyone studying astronomy has missed something if they have never looked through a scope and have seen a few of these interesting beauties shimmering--Andromeda and Orion and a few other gems. And the planets! I had a girl standing in line to look through my scope--a class trip. She was chatting and basically ignoring what I had to say. When it was her turn she bounced up to me saying, "What are we lookin' at, anyway?" I responded, "Saturn." She flounced her hair over her shoulder and put her eye up to my eyepiece and then she froze...then she looked up into the sky and said, "Where is that up there?" I pointed to it with my laser pointer. She looked into the scope and up, and down and up...until her classmates starting calling out to her to "hurry it up!" Then she said in a deep hushed voice, "It looks just like the pictures!" Worth it all. :) Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayfromcleveland Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I had a girl standing in line to look through my scope--a class trip. She was chatting and basically ignoring what I had to say. When it was her turn she bounced up to me saying, "What are we lookin' at, anyway?"I responded, "Saturn." She flounced her hair over her shoulder and put her eye up to my eyepiece and then she froze...then she looked up into the sky and said, "Where is that up there?" I pointed to it with my laser pointer. She looked into the scope and up, and down and up...until her classmates starting calling out to her to "hurry it up!" Then she said in a deep hushed voice, "It looks just like the pictures!" Worth it all. :) Hi Jean, yeah, I love those times also. A while back I was set up for some high school students (who appeared drunk or stoned). They INSISTED that Saturn was really a slide and not an actual image. So without touching anything, I stood in front of the telescope tube and blocked the image. I asked them to look around and point out the projection equipment and power supply or whatever. They remained unconvinced, and insisted that it was some sort of trick. "There are none so blind" and all that. This proves to me how much work we have to do to cure the public of all this media-induced "big ball astronomy," where everyone learns about black holes but are unaware that you can see the classical planets every clear night. take care, jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Lynx Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 All right, Jean, I'm one of those who has held back because the material seemed "too Christian." I just read your blog review, and I'm sold. As soon as we are, erm, employed again, S&S is going to the top of my list. And really, I've been drooling over it since it came out, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 Thank you, Jay, I'm really looking forward to getting started with the program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayfromcleveland Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 (edited) You're welcome Cynthia, and thank you. Mama Lynx, I don't think people who know me in person, especially Christians, think I'm "too Christian." But after studying classic sources for 20 years, I'm convinced that Christianity has been a major influence in western culture over the last 2000 years. This is reflected in the literary quotes in S&S, which include Bible verses, quotes from the Church Fathers, moderns like Leonardo and Shakespeare, and ancient pagans like Virgil and Cicero. I'd like to hope that I tried to take an intellectually honest approach in creating S&S, unlike many mainstream secular writers today who would like sweep the historical influence of Christianity under the rug. Anyway, send me an email if you have any questions or concerns and I will give you straight answers. Edited April 1, 2009 by jayfromcleveland typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSKLNG Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I have Starry Night, but Jean mentioned TUMOL. How much is the difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Wisc Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I have Starry Night, but Jean mentioned TUMOL. How much is the difference? The version of Starry Night that I am familiar with is a computer program that helps you find what is in the sky each night. It is a fun program to look at and use. You can move it around to find what objects are up at different hours of the night, and you can find out what planets and comets are out there, too. You can give it any date and time, and it will show you what will be out there. You can look at it as if you are standing on the earth looking east or west, north or south. I understand you can buy a educational program to go with it...I've never seen that. When I purchased my telescope, the amateur astronomy version of Starry Night was part of the package. TUMOL is not that at all. I used TUMOL for our Messier Marathon. Charles Messier made a list of all the deep sky objects that he knew--all 110 of them. These objects are now known as M1, M2, M3...M110. When we go out in the spring for an all night marathon to see if we can find all of these objects in one night, it helps to have a chart of all these objects. The Ultimate Messier Objects Log (TUMOL) is just that chart. It gives the objects in the order that they can be found--those that are setting in the west at sundown are first on the list. The last objects on the list are the objects that are barely on the horizon as the sun begins to rise. TUMOL is something you download from the internet in order to help you do the marathon--after you download, you print it out...all 110+ pages. (LOL!) The 1st couple of pages have just the object numbers in the orders we will find them. Then they have a page for each of the Messier objects with information about what they are--if it is a galaxy and what kind of galaxy it is, if it is a nebula and if the nebula and has common name (Eagle Nebula for example), if it is a double star or a globular cluster or an open cluster, etc., etc. Each page has a star map that identifies where it is in its constellation, and it has a picture of what the object will look like in the telescope, so that if you are not familiar with it, you have an idea of what it is you are looking for. This a great list of objects for anyone to try and find, and they do not have to be found only during a marathon--the bigger ones are good to do with binoculars (and TUMOL tells what size each object is, so you can pick out the ones you want to try and find). So--they are two very different programs doing very different things. HTH, Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSKLNG Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Well, after "some technical difficulties" I managed to open the program, whether it liked it or not, with the program I have. It is so cool. I got the 3 first pages printed out and the first one for spring...MO44. I open my Starry Night and looked for it, centered and magnified....woohoo....beautiful and I looked at it at 1:20pm (brought daylight) Am in the Pacific, so while you sleep I'm living your next day. IF, if, tonight we have a clear night I will go and try to find it. Right now it was below "my" horizon, but Starry went after it, through the trees and all, amazing, heehee. Thanks for the "new toy", is nice to go out and try to see how many stars and contellations can we identified, but with this it is much more "organized" focusing in one or few items instead of the entire night sky. Happy stargazing!:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Wisc Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Well, after "some technical difficulties" I managed to open the program, whether it liked it or not, with the program I have. It is so cool. I got the 3 first pages printed out and the first one for spring...MO44. I open my Starry Night and looked for it, centered and magnified....woohoo....beautiful and I looked at it at 1:20pm (brought daylight) Am in the Pacific, so while you sleep I'm living your next day. IF, if, tonight we have a clear night I will go and try to find it. Right now it was below "my" horizon, but Starry went after it, through the trees and all, amazing, heehee. Thanks for the "new toy", is nice to go out and try to see how many stars and contellations can we identified, but with this it is much more "organized" focusing in one or few items instead of the entire night sky. Happy stargazing!:D Glad you are enjoying it! Something you might want to note: In the upper right hand corner, next to the photo of the object, TUMOL lists the magnitude of the object. The smaller the number, the larger it is in the eyepiece--and easier to find. I recommend that you look through and choose the objects that are going to be easier to find first. M31 is a 4.5--in very clear skies, one can see it with the naked eye. M77, however, is a 10.5. This is an object that when I look for it with my 5" telescope, I have to use averted vision--meaning that it is so faint that I see it best when I do not look directly at it (the center of one's eye does not perceive light as well as the rest of the eye, so many objects are seen best by staring at a star close by the object and letting the rest of the eye observe it). If you are using binoculars, the 10.5 objects might not be possible to find at all. You might find the 8's--and those with a smaller number you will probably find on a clear night with binocs. Enjoy :) Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Eliana - I hope you get an answer. Even though we are Christian (but very liberal) we find some of the Christian textbooks so unusable that I tend to avoid them. This looks like fun, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Wisc Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Jay, I've been intrigued by your book for some time, but we're Orthodox Jews and most Xtian homeschool materials are inappropriate for our family. ...and after I read Nance's Introductory & Intermediate Logic with exercises based on Xtian theology, I stopped even considering texts advertised as Xtian. ...but I keep coming back to S & S, and now *Jean* is recommending it! I'm not sure how to formulate my concerns into words... 1) Is Xtianity/Xtian theology woven into the body of the text and/or the exercises? 2) Other than the range of literary/philosophical quotes, and general references to G-d is there 'Jesus talk'? 3) Obviously Xtianity's influence has been enormous, and on so many different levels in so many fields of study, and I would not want to belittle, diminish, or ignore it, but there is a wide range of ways that it could be acknowledged... from the Providential American history texts to SWB's SOTW. The latter is well within our comfort zone, the former light years out of it... how would you describe your approach - and might you have a sample page you could share to illustrate it? I'm not Jay...but I would think that this book would be rather comfortable for you as far as faith goes. References to the God who created the universe and such would equally important to both of us. It has been just long enough ago that I read it that I don't recall just all that is said throughout the book, but the idea that the world had a creator and that there is rhyme and reason to the universe is the foundation of who Jay is...and he did not hide this when he wrote the book. He also does not preach it--it is just his underlying point of view. It is not part of the study/test/science/teaching. As I thumb through the book, I just can't think of what would be in it that would be offensive to you...it certainly is not Providential American!!! I do want to say that I've not read all of the exercises/labs, but this is a science text written by someone who did not hide his belief in God as he typed. It is not a theology book about science. HTH, Jean P.S. If you get it, I'd love to know what you think about it. I'm just thinking you might get along just fine with this one. I hope so. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayfromcleveland Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Eliana, sorry, I'm just visiting WTM again today and havent been back since this thread was "fresh." I'll try to answer your questions. Jay, I've been intrigued by your book for some time, but we're Orthodox Jews and most Xtian homeschool materials are inappropriate for our family. ...and after I read Nance's Introductory & Intermediate Logic with exercises based on Xtian theology, I stopped even considering texts advertised as Xtian. ...but I keep coming back to S & S, and now *Jean* is recommending it! I'm not sure how to formulate my concerns into words... 1) Is Xtianity/Xtian theology woven into the body of the text and/or the exercises? 2) Other than the range of literary/philosophical quotes, and general references to G-d is there 'Jesus talk'? 3) Obviously Xtianity's influence has been enormous, and on so many different levels in so many fields of study, and I would not want to belittle, diminish, or ignore it, but there is a wide range of ways that it could be acknowledged... from the Providential American history texts to SWB's SOTW. The latter is well within our comfort zone, the former light years out of it... how would you describe your approach - and might you have a sample page you could share to illustrate it? I think the answers to your questions depend on how easily offended you are by Christianity. I tried to present the topics in a frank, academic manner, but I don't feel that I proselytized in the text. But I'm a Christian writing for a Christian audience and therefore cannot promise that you won't find something you won't like. You might be pleased by the discussion of the Hebrew calendar and the Biblical and astronomical basis thereof -- something I find is poorly understood by many modern Jews. For example, Passover (14 Nisan) always falls at the Full Moon of spring. However, I also show very matter-of-factly that Easter follows the Passover and has similar astronomical rules. There is also a discussion of the Gregorian calendar that mentions Pope Gregory XIII. I wondered if some evangelical Christians might be offended by this and other references to Roman Catholicism, but Gregory is presented as a historical personage and hopefully we can all agree on that. S&S documents sources in the form of lengthy literary quotations, and though they are not footnoted or endnoted, the sources are listed in a detailed bibliography. A five page PDF sample can be found at the S&S page of our web site, linked below in my footer. FWIW, while writing, I anticipated a number of complaints from various offended parties, but havent really received many. A number of Jewish readers have enjoyed S&S and said good things about it, without agreeing with every particular. Here's some articles I've written in my newsletter that might give you an idea of my approach. "The Astronomy of Easter" was written in 2003 and was adapted into the Epilogue of S&S. The Astronomy of Easter http://www.classicalastronomy.com/news/anmviewer.asp?a=39&z=13 The Paschal Moon (Previously titled "The Astronomy of Passover") http://www.classicalastronomy.com/news/anmviewer.asp?a=19&z=15 Is Easter Pagan? (might also give you an idea of my approach) http://www.crosswalk.com/homeschool/11601857/ Hope that helps, please feel free to drop me an email off-list if you have any specific questions. Thanks for your interest, jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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