Melissa in CA Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 He and I have been learning outlining together, and even with the white KF it can get tricky. Well, yesterday he wanted to do it on his own without ANY input from me.:blink: Those of you proficient in outlining, can you critique his effort for me? He doesn't know I am asking for your help, so anything you say will not reach his eyes or ears. This outline is from page 88 (The Greek Legacy) from the white '93 Kingfisher. I. Greeks asked questions A. used reasons and arguments II. Early Greeks wrote lists of kings and events A. Herodotus 1. Wrote studies of people and customs B. Thucydides 1. Wrote the 1st account of war and it's causes III. Philosophy teachers A. Socrates and Plato were great philosophers B. Arithmetic was invented by Greek mathematicians Euclid & Pythagoras IV. Greek entertainment A. Music B. Dramas C. Plays and comedies D. Olympic games 1. Held every 4 years 2. Honored the gods 3. At the end animals were sacrificed to Zeus The indentations on the outline disappear when previewing the post...so take that into consideration. He actually did indent properly. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alana in Canada Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 This is a key word outline, right? I don't have Kingfisher '93, but this looks like an excellent outline! Different approaches work differently, however. Rod and Staff would have us use one word for the Roman numeral instead of words. But out-lines are to serve the student in memory re-call, so they are very personal things. One word wouldn't work for me. I like the way your son has done it. The only change I would make is change Roman numeral two to II. Greek Writing. But I wouldn't even mention it to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in CA Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 Thanks Alana! You probably wouldn't think it was so good if you had the '93 KF to look at though. :lol: He has done four outlines this week. Next week I am going to have him pick one and write from it. I guess the point of outlines is to basically do just that in a sense, right? To write the points that you want to remember? If that's the case, then I suppose there is no real right or wrong way to do one? :confused: I'm honestly pretty clueless. Like I mentioned, we are learning outlining together. I was NEVER taught this in my public school education. I am actually finding it kind of fun though...who would've thought! :001_huh::lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfatherslily Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I haven't done a real outline in a long time. But I seem to recall that each point is supposed to be in the same form. Like all complete sentences or all not. For example, his main points are: I. Greeks asked questions II. Early Greeks wrote lists of kings and events III. Philosophy teachers IV. Greek entertainment The first two tell us something that the Greeks did. But the second two do not have that same form. I'm sure someone else will know if I'm remembering that correctly or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfatherslily Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Oh, I also meant to say that it looks like he's doing good, though!!:) And ultimately, the point of an outline is to organize all the points you want to make in a paper. If your points don't flow smoothly, neither will your paper:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 :lurk5: I'm not "in the know", but I want to be :D Bill (who learns a lot from you all) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dulcimeramy Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 (edited) Deleted, because it just occurred to me that while I like my former HS English teacher's way of doing things, I have not yet studied TWTM-ish methods of outlining. I'll just hush :) Edited March 20, 2009 by Dulcimeramy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reya Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 (edited) Anal people (read: most English teachers) would reject not having at least 2 of any sublevel. I say this is a moronic rule that defies the way real human beings write. Ditto the rule that an outline must be all just a couple or words or all phrases or all sentences. I think he did great, not having the book to look at! He'll need to know the full rules and will probably use them four times in his life. :-) For the rest, outlines are for memory, not for prettiness or adherence to weird rules. Edited March 20, 2009 by Reya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in CA Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 I haven't done a real outline in a long time. But I seem to recall that each point is supposed to be in the same form. Like all complete sentences or all not. For example, his main points are: I. Greeks asked questions II. Early Greeks wrote lists of kings and events III. Philosophy teachers IV. Greek entertainment The first two tell us something that the Greeks did. But the second two do not have that same form. I'm sure someone else will know if I'm remembering that correctly or not? Great to know! Thanks! :D I thought it didn't look right, but couldn't place my finger on why. A very easy correction to make and a new bit of info to impart to him (and ME! :w00t:) You're all so informative! :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in CA Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 Deleted, because it just occurred to me that while I like my former HS English teacher's way of doing things, I have not yet studied TWTM-ish methods of outlining. I'll just hush :) Oh, but now inquiring minds want to know! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfatherslily Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Anal people (read: most English teachers) would reject not having at least 2 of any sublevel. Ahh, yes, that too:) I think that probably follows the thought that if you're going to support an argument (or any statement), you need to have more than one point to hold it up. I agree that it can be very annoying at times:) But that IS the rule! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reya Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Ahh, yes, that too:) I think that probably follows the thought that if you're going to support an argument (or any statement), you need to have more than one point to hold it up. I agree that it can be very annoying at times:) But that IS the rule! :D It isn't just about an argument. It's about, well, facts about things, too. For example, I might write an article about the Phoenicians in which I mention their major exports and note that they were the first to develop blown glass but say *nothing more about blown glass* because nothing else is that important about it. That's something significant about them that a reader should remember, but no real writer would ever say that you have to have more than one detail about something because you have one.... Seriously, only the WORST, MOST INCOMPETENT English teachers insist on anything like that. They are generally only half-literate, at best, and couldn't write their way out of a paper sack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dulcimeramy Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 LOL! I was just going to say that Mrs. Whatshername insisted on either fragments or complete sentences. Also if you have an "A" then you must also have a "B." If you can't wring a "B" out of it, skip the "A." She was a stickler for symmetry. I have my 10 year old ds write complete sentence outlines, which he then converts to paragraph-length summaries. So far, so good. One for history and one for science each week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschool_mom Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 I think the outline looks good. It doesn’t appear to have any irrelevant details and each supporting point is related to the main point. Well Trained Mind examples used sentences instead of just one word (like in R & S). No two people would outline in the exact same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Well, I just want to say thanks for posting your son's outline! I'm another who is learning my way along with my son, and it's helpful for me to read others' comments about your son's outline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in CA Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 The most difficult part about outlining for him is getting over the idea that all the info (main idea and all it's supporting facts) is contained within one paragraph. This has just not been the case! With the KF the main ideas and supporting info is not all contained in each paragraph nice and neat like you find in outlining books. We find it all scattered within the 'article.' Trying to outline paragraph, by paragraph would make for a VERY disjointed, confusing and useless outline. When we began outlining from real sources that is what we thought had to be done and it seemed impossible. Now, we find all the main ideas within the article and it's supporting facts and make our own paragraph outlines. When he rewrites them they will be paragraphs with a main idea and supporting facts...like you would find in an outlining book. :w00t: Has anyone else found this to be the case? Or are we doing it all wrong by not actually outlining each paragraph? :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 The most difficult part about outlining for him is getting over the idea that all the info (main idea and all it's supporting facts) is contained within one paragraph. This has just not been the case! With the KF the main ideas and supporting info is not all contained in each paragraph nice and neat like you find in outlining books. We find it all scattered within the 'article.' Trying to outline paragraph, by paragraph would make for a VERY disjointed, confusing and useless outline. When we began outlining from real sources that is what we thought had to be done and it seemed impossible. Now, we find all the main ideas within the article and it's supporting facts and make our own paragraph outlines. When he rewrites them they will be paragraphs with a main idea and supporting facts...like you would find in an outlining book. :w00t: Has anyone else found this to be the case? Or are we doing it all wrong by not actually outlining each paragraph? :confused: I've read on the boards here that others have done the same thing you are doing. We're only on one level outlining so far....and have mostly been using World Book, which has nice neat paragraphs to outline.:D But in looking at other books, I can see what you mean. And I'm thinking that's the ultimate goal (or one of them, anyway) of outlining - to be able to figure out the logical layout of a passage, no matter how the author laid out the writing. If you can figure out a rhyme and reason to a passage, then you'll learn the material and figure out how the author writes. I haven't ventured to go that route yet, I want ds (and me!) to get really comfy first with picking main ideas from paragraphs first. I know we'll have to go your route at some point, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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